Kill action limit should only be affected by kill action use

[Stromboli]

Hey friends. Don't remember if this was suggested, wasn't finding anything in search, but wanna throw it out there.  

 

I would like to suggest that the kill limit which blocks use of the kill action should only count dragons killed by use of the kill action.

 

So, there are a few ways to kill a creature on your scroll:

• Neglect: Failing to get enough views on an egg or hatchling within the 7 days for their current growth stage. To my knowledge, this does not count toward your kill action limit.
• Sickness: Getting too many views on an egg or hatchling over a short time can cause it to die. To my knowledge, this does not count toward your kill action limit.
• Killing: Use of the kill action on any egg, hatchling, or adult. This does count toward your kill action limit (obviously).
• Earthquake: Use of the Earthquake BSA on the eggs of your scroll, possibly resulting in death. Eggs killed by Earthquake count toward your Kill action limit, and hold an egg slot for 24 hours.
• Bite: Use of the Bite BSA on an egg, possibly resulting in death. Eggs killed by Bite count toward your kill action limit, and dead eggs hold a slot for 24 hours.

 

I've been feeding my vampires lately, and have an awful lot of dead eggs, which also means I see this message:

 

The thing is though, I haven't used this action since around Halloween. All the dead eggs are due to something else. If ever I want to try for zombies, I have to wait weeks from the last time I had any failed vampire bites. So I'll always have to choose between vampire or zombie attempts, which is really disappointing around Halloween every year. (Yes, you can kill things ahead of time for zombie attempts, but every day the dragon I want to kill dodges is a day of vampire attempts I have to hold off on).

 

I'd much prefer it if only use of the kill action counted toward the kill action block. 

 

Proposed method would be:

• Neglect: Would not count toward kill action
• Sickness: Would not count toward kill action
• Killing: Counts toward kill action
• Earthquake: Would not count toward kill action
• Bite: Would not count toward kill action

 

And on a last note, just want to say this is not a suggestion to remove the 24 hour egg-slot block for killing an egg by Earthquake or Bite.

This is only to do with the 5 times the kill action may be used in a given period. The 24 hour slot block would still stand.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Stromboli

[purpledragonclaw]

I believe any action that results in the "kill" text being used in its reason for death should count towards the kill action. With the Earthquake and Bite BSAs, you know there is a chance you can kill the egg through the action and you chose to do it anyway, so if a kill happens that way I think it should count. I'm fine with Neglect and Sickness no longer counting, though.

[Stromboli]

The reason I suggest this is that the kill action serves a bit of a different purpose and is carried out in a different way than accidental killing by BSA.

 

You're still punished for causing the untimely death of a growing egg by having an egg slot locked for 24 hours when you kill by Earthquake or Bite. But it seems like it's a bit of a different thing, an egg accidentally dying when you were trying for something else to happen, versus walking up to your dragon and stabbing it to death with the kill action. With the kill action, the primary and stated intent is to kill it, y'know?

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, purpledragonclaw said:

I believe any action that results in the "kill" text being used in its reason for death should count towards the kill action. With the Earthquake and Bite BSAs, you know there is a chance you can kill the egg through the action and you chose to do it anyway, so if a kill happens that way I think it should count. I'm fine with Neglect and Sickness no longer counting, though.

 

(bolding mine)

 

Actually, I was just looking, the Bite action does *not* say anything at all about killing the egg. On the Actions page it says 'Bite  Convert a living egg into a vampire egg. Can only be performed once every 31 days.' and on the bite-action page it says 'Select an egg to bite. This may transform it into a vampire egg.' Nowhere does it say anything about a chance of killing the egg. Earthquake has a very obvious and blunt warning, but Bite does not at all.

 

That said, while I very much think a warning should be added to Bite, I don't really agree with this suggestion. Maybe tweak the 'kill' text a little bit so it doesn't say 'this action', since slots can be taken up through other actions. But otherwise I agree with purpledragonclaw, if you knowingly do something that can kill an egg then a kill slot being taken up is logical. Also, I think if you are going to knowingly decide to take action that can kill an egg, you *should* have a penalty like a kill slot being taken. It's the... I can't think of another word besides 'risk', but it's the negative you have to deal with for killing the dragon.

[Sunfeathers]

I get what you are saying but I use my vamps to kill, or at least I don't give them any eggs that I am not okay with dying. If I get the wrong egg from pairs that are especially special to me, or if I do some kind of embarrassing misbreed, or if I have an egg from a zombie fail parent, I give the egg to my vampires in order to make sure the bloodline does not continue. And yeah I want them to bite gently, but for me the main point is that the egg won't grow up into a normal dragon and if they weren't around to do the job I probably would kill at least some of the eggs myself.

 

Also people definitely used EQ as a mass kill type action to clear the AP, so I think it's reasonable that it does count too. However, if the 24hr slot block stayed, I think it would be fine to remove the penalty on the kill action. EQ has basically been useless ever since the 24hr slot lock was applied to it so I think it's fine to make it suck slightly less by pretty much whatever means necessary. I'm less sold on vampire bites, but it wouldn't negatively affect me so whatever I guess.

 

I'd be more enthusiastic about a separation of kill slots based on age (egg/dragon/hatchling) or more kill slots based on trophy level. I do agree that it's weird that vampire kills stop you from killing an adult, but for me it comes from the fact that it's weird that killing an egg is the same action as killing an adult. Also I feel like I should be more competent at killing dragons by now and have more kill slots, in the same way that I am more competent at raising dragons and I have more eggslots.

[Stromboli]

11 minutes ago, Sunfeathers said:

Also I feel like I should be more competent at killing dragons by now and have more kill slots, in the same way that I am more competent at raising dragons and I have more eggslots.

 

That's also something I'd like. Like, freezing scales with your egg slots, it'd be nice if killing could too.

 

 

But I still find giving an egg to a vampire knowing it maybe could die just kinda different from hoisting it over your head and slam dunking it into the ground for the purpose of making it die. I think that the 24 hour egg lock appropriate punishment, and taking up a kill slot seems... redundant?

 

I'm also not sure whether EQ takes kill slots when you accidentally kill, but I seem to remember it being said that they might not. If it is the case that EQ deaths do not take kill slots, I'm not sure why vampire bites should.

[purpledragonclaw]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

Actually, I was just looking, the Bite action does *not* say anything at all about killing the egg. On the Actions page it says 'Bite  Convert a living egg into a vampire egg. Can only be performed once every 31 days.' and on the bite-action page it says 'Select an egg to bite. This may transform it into a vampire egg.' Nowhere does it say anything about a chance of killing the egg. Earthquake has a very obvious and blunt warning, but Bite does not at all.

 

You're right, my mistake. I hadn't realized we didn't explicitly state that in the Bite option, even though killing's a distinct possibility. Once again I take for granted that I just know these things because I've been playing for so long. That description for the Bite action could be more thorough. 

 

Although, this made me think: should we be punishing players for a kill they make accidentally, especially if they don't know Bite can kill? Newer players might not know that. And should we hold it against players who don't know by having it take up a kill slot? My feeling is no. 

 

My thoughts: 1) Accidental kills should not take up a kill slot if a player knows a kill could be a possibility from a BSA, and 2) If Earthquake does not take up a kill slot, then Bite shouldn't either, and I agree with Stromboli.

 

1 hour ago, Sunfeathers said:

Also I feel like I should be more competent at killing dragons by now and have more kill slots, in the same way that I am more competent at raising dragons and I have more eggslots.

 

We have an older thread here where we've asked for this.

[Starscream]

I am fine with bite being counted against me.

[Fuzzbucket]

10 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

I believe any action that results in the "kill" text being used in its reason for death should count towards the kill action. With the Earthquake and Bite BSAs, you know there is a chance you can kill the egg through the action and you chose to do it anyway, so if a kill happens that way I think it should count. I'm fine with Neglect and Sickness no longer counting, though.

 

I agree with PDC. You kill - in whatever way -  you take the consequences.

[StormWizard212]

I find it a bit inconsistent that accidental kills through biting contribute to the kill slots since you can no longer intentionally 'kill' dragons due to 5 recent kills, but you can continue to inadvertently kill as many dragons as you'd like through biting. In this way, intentional and unintentional killing is already treated different, and that makes me a little more favourable toward the proposed change. It doesn't really make sense to me that you kill a few eggs through biting and the game says "you've killed too many dragons so you can't kill any others!" but then you can continue doing exactly what you were doing in the first place and bite/kill more. In order to be consistent, I feel like 'accidental' killing (biting) shouldn't count towards the 5 kill slots, or the option to bite should be unavailable after 5 unsuccessful attempts. (Unless this is already the case and I simply haven't noticed because I don't bite eggs very often...) I don't think I've explained that very well, but do you follow what I'm saying?

[Guillotine]

I don't care in which direction it is made more consistent, but it should be completely consistent, I agree. The current setup is a bit... ridiculous, if you can continue biting without kill slots despite them counting against your limit.
 

[MiaLily]

8 hours ago, StormWizard212 said:

I find it a bit inconsistent that accidental kills through biting contribute to the kill slots since you can no longer intentionally 'kill' dragons due to 5 recent kills, but you can continue to inadvertently kill as many dragons as you'd like through biting. In this way, intentional and unintentional killing is already treated different, and that makes me a little more favourable toward the proposed change. It doesn't really make sense to me that you kill a few eggs through biting and the game says "you've killed too many dragons so you can't kill any others!" but then you can continue doing exactly what you were doing in the first place and bite/kill more. In order to be consistent, I feel like 'accidental' killing (biting) shouldn't count towards the 5 kill slots, or the option to bite should be unavailable after 5 unsuccessful attempts. (Unless this is already the case and I simply haven't noticed because I don't bite eggs very often...) I don't think I've explained that very well, but do you follow what I'm saying?

 

Bite is still available once you've used up your kill slots. (What happens afterwards though, if I were to kill an egg now via bite, would only four of my kill slots come back?)

 

This inconsistency hadn't even occurred to me until now but is glaring now. Personally, I haven't bitten anything in ages because I want and need all my kill slots for Zombie making (that is also the very reason why I would support increased kills based on trophy level, but that is a different topic...). I agree with @Stromboli that the 24-hour-slot-block is punishment enough for an accidental kill. 

 

15 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

You're right, my mistake. I hadn't realized we didn't explicitly state that in the Bite option, even though killing's a distinct possibility. Once again I take for granted that I just know these things because I've been playing for so long. That description for the Bite action could be more thorough. 

 

It's probably all that literature on how Vampire bites 'work' that one automatically assumes that it is common knowledge that Vampire bites might be deadly. 

[DragonLady86]

Just now, MiaLily said:

 

Bite is still available once you've used up your kill slots. (What happens afterwards though, if I were to kill an egg now via bite, would only four of my kill slots come back?)

 

This inconsistency hadn't even occurred to me until now but is glaring now. Personally, I haven't bitten anything in ages because I want and need all my kill slots for Zombie making (that is also the very reason why I would support increased kills based on trophy level, but that is a different topic...). I agree with @Stromboli that the 24-hour-slot-block is punishment enough for an accidental kill. 

 

 

It's probably all that literature on how Vampire bites 'work' that one automatically assumes that it is common knowledge that Vampire bites might be deadly. 

You can still bite, and it can still kill, it just takes that much longer to get your kill slots back.

[VixenDra]

To my knowledge, eggs vs hatchies&adults are very different things when it comes to killing... different purposes most of all...

You can't make a zombie out of a dead egg, only out of dead hatchies and adults, also only eggs cannot be insta-abandoned at times which is why eggs are purposefully Bitten without intent to obtain a Vampire - it's bitten in hopes it turns and gets repulsed - and is dead when the action fails completely.

The only shared reason for killing all 3 age groups is removing the given critter from its parents' progenies... But it's a very rare thing, the only reason to do so that I know about is if a somehow lifemated dragon gets accidentally bred to something else and the player doesn't want any trace of that accident to exist in the game(no trace="it never happened"), but normally people don't care about some dragon's existence in their dragons' progenies, it's the least aimed-for result of all the reasons to use kill at all. All other uses are not common for both eggs and hatchies&adults.

Which leads to the conclusion: "why do they even share the cooldown?".

 

I don't see why Bite counts to the Kill limit, if the walkaround is as simple as "first kill your Zombie fodders(always hatchies and adutls only, never eggs), and THEN go over that limit and Bite all vamp fodders(always eggs only, never the other age groups)".

If Bite counts to the Kill limit of 5, then why Kill doesn't limit Bite(so Bite doesn't cause over-limit deaths - in other words, the Bite action should be unavailable for scrolls that are currently at the Kill limit, just like Kill is not available if someone Bites for a total of 5 deaths at a time*shrug*)?

Something is very illogical and non-consequent with the current state of things, isn't it? Not only both actions apply to different age groups(as I explained above, forgive the mental shortcut here) and serve different purposes, but also they aren't mutually affecting each other: only Bite affects Kill but Kill doesn't affect Bite, how come?

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by VixenDra

[Stromboli]

Yeah, it's just a weird crisscrossing of limits the way it is now.

And it could definitely be resolved in the other direction too, that anything that results in the premature death of a dragon counts toward "kills" and any action that can result in a "kill" would be capped by the same limit. Just say that killing is killing no matter how it happens.

 

But you get more than a handful of Vampires on your scroll, and biting with them can already take a while if you have to wait 24 hours after 8 broken eggs. If it became limited to 5 every two weeks by getting cut off by the kill limits, you might only be able to get half a dozen vampires in a month, no matter how many vamps you had.

[hazeh]

I agree with Stromboli. It just doesn't make much sense, frankly, and in terms of game play, the kill action is the only way to get a zombie; therefore, I don't think that attempts to create a vampire should interfere with that. 

 

Besides, you aren't the one doing the killing anyway-- it's your dragon. It makes more since that the "Kill" action is something you specifically do and thus YOU are limited, but if your dragon-- Bite or Earthquake-- does something, that shouldn't prevent you from using your limited actions. The 24 hour lock is enough, imo. I don't really see a reason that Bite or even Earthquake should contribute to a kill action. 

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

I definitely support this. You haven't actively stabbed your dragon, so why does the site act as if you had? Only actually using Kill should count as... Killing.

[osmarks]

@hazeh I may be wrong, but I think any dead dragon can be zombinated.

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, yeah - but if you want an adult zombie you have to use kill; a vamp can only bite an egg, and EQ also only affects eggs, so... the ONLY case where you can get a zombie without using kill is on dead hatchlings that you managed to get to die all by themselves Which isn't as easy as it looks. You can get them their views and then fog them, but they don't always die when you'd like.

[DragonLady86]

9 hours ago, osmarks said:

@hazeh I may be wrong, but I think any dead dragon can be zombinated.

Zombies do not have an egg sprite, so dead eggs can not be zombied. (which makes sense given zombies do not grow)

[Stromboli]

update: Experimented with Earthquake and confirmed it does take one of your kill slots when an egg is killed.

Haven't managed to kill enough to see if Earthquake is disabled when you reach your kill limit, but I'm guessing that–like Bite–it is not.

 

I'd still like to see BSA-related egg deaths maintain their 24 hour egg slot hold as consequence for killing an egg, but not count toward your Kill action limit.

[Stromboli]

heyo.

 

bringin' this back up 'cause the new Pitfire mechanic has reminded me how much I don't care for the Vampire-bites-count-as-Kill-actions behavior. 😐 

[LevelsOfViolence]

Can't believe I've never noticed this suggestion.

As someone whose scroll primarily consists of Vampires, huge support. Being kill locked because of failed Bites always felt nonsensical and it really doesn't add anything to the game, especially considering that dodging also exists (I really think it shouldn't, but that's a topic for another day).

 

On another note, earthquake fails (just like bite) counting as a kill feels really off as well because it's not intentional, even from a 'lore' perspective or what else -- you are taking a risk, not consciously trying to murder your own eggs.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Nevemore

[Chaosdawn]

Support! I'd like to be able to work on my vampires and zombies at the same time, not have to choose one or the other. 

[Ruby Eyes]

For Bite and Earthquake, you still have that limit of available growing slots AND available dragons to perform it.

Thus, there is really no need to have them count against a THIRD limit (kill slots).