Kill action limit should only be affected by kill action use

[ShorahNagi]

Support. I will agree with others that bite and earthquake should not take kills slots if they fail (technically the vampire \green dragon kills the egg, not you). Only the kill action should count.

 

Though has anyone considered the possibility of just adding more kill slots? It could even be based on trophy type [no trophy is the current 5 slots, bronze = 6, silver = 7, gold = 8, platinum = 10] if people want to restrict it

[Fuzzbucket]

While I'd love more - I can't see why bite and EQ shouldn't count.

[11th]

Even though I don't use any of these actions, I'd support this. The 24 hour hold on killed egg slots is already a "punishment" for killing an egg with Bite or Earthquake. If that's not enough, then add a separate kill limit for each of those so that people can't go too crazy with them. (Example: X dead eggs from Bite per two-week period) Kill has separate uses from Bite, and both have separate uses from Earthquake. The only overlap is using Kill to try and hatch eggs early, but I don't think enough people do that for it to be a big issue.

[Stromboli]

4 hours ago, ShorahNagi said:

Though has anyone considered the possibility of just adding more kill slots? It could even be based on trophy type [no trophy is the current 5 slots, bronze = 6, silver = 7, gold = 8, platinum = 10] if people want to restrict it

I would love kill action slots to scale with trophy level, though that's mostly a separate issue. Even if we had 10 kill action slots for platinum, two days of vampire bites still wipes out your kill action slots.

 

Like, with enough vampires and green dragons, you could keep your kill action perpetually locked without ever using the kill action. And Kill has particular side effects that Bite and Earthquake don't activate, since they are egg-only actions and Undead Dragons can only be made from hatchlings and adults, and Pitfires can only be reborn as adults.

[LevelsOfViolence]

22 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

I would love kill action slots to scale with trophy level, though that's mostly a separate issue. Even if we had 10 kill action slots for platinum, two days of vampire bites still wipes out your kill action slots.

Absolutely agree with this, I remember back when I was a lot more active and working on my old Vampire 'project' I barely ever had Kill available.

My scroll would often look like this:

Spoiler

And for the longest time it was one of the main reasons I didn't bother with zombies.

 

I think increasing the amount of kill slots is a good idea, but it won't really be a big change if bite/earthquake BSAs stay as they currently are. People who aren't big into biting/using earthquake might feel a difference, but those who do it often will barely see any impact.

[lexi_]

i agree, its really the fact that kills through bsas that may kill an egg count towards your intentional kill limit frankly, well, sucks.

 

accidental kills are accidental. intentional kills are intentional. there should be a distinction. as has been said here already, you have your 24 hour limit on dead eggs taking up a lot already, which solves the problem of people overusing earthquake and bite to clear out the ap/kill by getting around the limit by overusing those. that's a sufficient enough punishment for a kill that may not be (and probably isnt) intentional. a distinction should be made, because theyre completely different intentions. 

 

if someone doesnt want an egg to appear in a dragon's progeny, as mentioned, they could technically try to bite it to kill it to get around kill limits, but that risks it either just turning normally, making you need to use a kill spot to actually kill it anyway, or it bouncing to the AP and you never get the chance to kill it and its stuck on the progeny forever. so i dont think people would really be using that to bypass limits, nor do i think removing earthquake kills from the limit would stop people from using it to clear the AP because as soon as they hit their scroll limit because of dead eggs locking them for a day, then theyre done. so i dont see why this shouldnt implemented. it makes no sense for the bsa kills to count as kill spots.

[Fuzzbucket]

Just now, InvaderAlexis said:

i agree, its really the fact that kills through bsas that may kill an egg count towards your intentional kill limit frankly, well, sucks.

 

accidental kills are accidental. intentional kills are intentional. there should be a distinction.

 

A genuinely accidental kill is distinguished from a deliberate one. i don't know what you mean. A bite kill is a kill; an EQ is a kill. Both are deliberate and hardly accidental.

[Shadowdrake]

Also vamps are already not available in cave so having them affect both means you're basically forced to pick between vampires or zombies, which sucks for a) vampire enthusiasts and b) people who don't have vampires and need to catch/trade for them when they have a low supply.

 

Support. not even going to get into the semantics of what makes a kill intentional or not, I feel it'd just go in circles like other forum arguments

[Fuzzbucket]

Intentional is when you perform an action which you KNOW can kill. It's not rocket science.

 

But we don't have to choose between zombies and vamps - vamps can be created any old time. So do those at the start of the month, and kill for zombies at the end of the month.

[Shadowdrake]

3 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Intentional is when you perform an action which you KNOW can kill. It's not rocket science.

No, you kill intentionally when you intend to kill. Vampire and earthquake kills are an unfortunate side effect.

[Stromboli]

I mean, you still bear the "punishment" of an "intentional" kill in that you have to wait 24 hours to get your egg slot back with Bite or Earthquake.

 

But given that the Kill action has entirely different behavior and applications than Bite or Earthquake, and neither Bite nor Earthquake is limited by how many eggs you've "intentionally" killed in the last two weeks, I don't understand why the Kill action should be disabled because your Vampires and Green Dragons killed eggs.

 

And y'know, fwiw, I've been known to very intentionally view bomb or neglect my own eggs to death, when I had things I wanted to die but didn't want to risk an Earthquake and the egg wasn't available for Biting. /shrug

[Fuzzbucket]

Oh sure - but those only count as a dead egg/.hatchie and don't count against the kill limit.

[MissK.]

54 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Oh sure - but those only count as a dead egg/.hatchie and don't count against the kill limit.

 

Exactly, so it's not really about what actions could kill, or eggs that run out of time/sickness would also count. 'Deliberate' kills are using the kill action; the others are just side effects as Shadowdrake said. 

 

I never understood why this was a thing in the first place, so I support this suggestion. The limit on kill slots doesn't affect Bite and Earthquake, so why do Bite and Earthquake affect the limit?

[Stromboli]

Yeah, I just mean like, it's funny that the times I unintentionally kill an egg with Bite (my intent was to create a Vampire, the death was not the desired effect) that counts as using the Kill action, but the times I very intentionally view bomb an egg to death, that does not 😂

 

It's just such a strange collision of action effects. Like, if you create a frozen hatchling by killing a hatchling and making it Undead, does that count toward your Freeze actions for the two weeks? I've never paid attention to it. I mean, you've still created a frozen hatchling.

[aegagrusScholarship]

I support this idea because of the same reason MissK mentioned: even if you are over your kill limit, you can still use Bite and Earthquake with impunity (until you get egglocked from those kills, of course). It doesn't make sense for them to count towards kill slots, but still be able to be used even once your kill slots are filled. It just... doesn't make sense for it to go one way but not the other, that's what I'm trying to say.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

I know I commented before, but I couldn't agree more with this suggestion. Unless you are actively trying to physically kill the dragon, I don't believe it should count against your Kill actions. Only Kill as an action should count against your Kill count imo. Especially since Bite gives no warning of death as a consequence!

[Fuzzbucket]

But it does.

 

 

I'm indifferent here, but just for accuracy.

[MissK.]

The bite text was indeed updated at some point to include the death warning (as it should).

 

I just realised though, in the help entry for Earthquake it doesn't mention that any potential kills would count against the limit, and Bite of course doesn't even have an entry there. It seems a bit unfair that someone can use those actions and then be locked out of kill slots without realising, as the kill action is listed as a completely separate thing with its own specific limit. It must suck to use either of those for the first time, then go attempt some zombies and realise it's impossible for 2 weeks with no warning about it.

[aegagrusScholarship]

Yes, it warns you that it may kill the egg and I'm too new to have seen the text before it was updated. That's not the issue here; the issue is that it counts against a kill slot if you kill the egg, BUT if you are out of kill slots, you can still try to bite (and possibly kill it anyways). The Bite BSA doesn't require a kill slot to use, essentially, but it still uses one if you still have kill slots available.

Edited November 24, 2020 by aegagrusScholarship

[Fuzzbucket]

I do get that and it is odd. But to say that there's no warning about killing with a bite - I thought I should correct !

[Fiona]

Of course we no longer have access to the thread where addressing using EQ to clear the AP was discussed, but if I remember clearly, the argument for adding EQ and Bite to the kill slots counter was simply that Kill, Bite and EQ are all active choices that can result in dead things, while neglect, running out of time and sickness are passive choices that can result in dead things. Bite and EQ are not *accidental* in that you chose to use an action that you know can result in dead things, which is similar to using the kill action. Whether lore wise it's through your dragon or not, it's still an action on your part.

I'm neither opposed to this suggestion nor particularly in favor per se. Just throwing out what I remember from the original arguments. That said, I agree things are a bit inconsistent and could stand some reconsideration.

[Fuzzbucket]

I remember that thread. On reflection, EQ DOES need to count towards kills as it can be abused so heavily to kill off the AP stuff.

[MissK.]

3 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I remember that thread. On reflection, EQ DOES need to count towards kills as it can be abused so heavily to kill off the AP stuff.

 

But how does that help since it doesn't limit the use of EQ? Nobody uses kill slots to achieve the same result...

[Stromboli]

Earthquake does currently decrease your available Kill actions, on top of the 24 hour egg slot lock.

 

No matter how someone kills the eggs, through Bite, Earthqake, or Kill, you're still ultimately limited to 8 kills every 24 hours due to the egg slot locking mechanic. That would remain. This suggestion is just that using other actions should not count toward the Kill action limit.

[Fuzzbucket]

And if you want to be able; to kill for other purposes, you aren't going to waste them on mass murder in the AP. (not to mention, of course, you risk being stuck with a shedload of dead eggs...)

But I guess what I mean is that if you are up to your kill limit, you shouldn't be able to use EQ.