Snow Angel Breed

[angelicdragonpuppy]

A Snow Angel BSA would be simple as pie to understand.

 

Adopt BSA text: allows this dragon to influence a hatchling of the same breed to share its wing pattern. Effects remain even if the hatchling leaves your scroll.

 

SAs breeding true: would be fairly intuitive after the first year, and even non forum users could follow the news post on the main cave page to see the announcement, or check the wiki.

 

Both together is very simple and allows full control over SA colors.

Edited November 27, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy

[HeatherMarie]

They do sound very simple that way. However, that does *not* "allow full control over SA colors", since you are limiting the BSA to the influencing-adult's wing color. Breeding true plus influencing-to-adult's-color allows much more control then we currently have, definitely. But it does not all "full control" since it does not allow for the possibility of all wing colors. As I said before, if this has to happen why have it be restrictive to the point where it will cause such frustration? No one has yet given a reason why, if an adult SA has the ability to influence another SA's wing colors, it wouldn't be able to influence to the third color. Is there some obvious reason that I'm not understanding? If not, why not have the BSA allow to influence to any color? Then we won't have tons of people frustrated and complaining the first year about not being able to influence to the color they prefer.

[Dragon_Arbock]

1 minute ago, Marie19R said:

They do sound very simple that way. However, that does *not* "allow full control over SA colors", since you are limiting the BSA to the influencing-adult's wing color. Breeding true plus influencing-to-adult's-color allows much more control then we currently have, definitely. But it does not all "full control" since it does not allow for the possibility of all wing colors. As I said before, if this has to happen why have it be restrictive to the point where it will cause such frustration? No one has yet given a reason why, if an adult SA has the ability to influence another SA's wing colors, it wouldn't be able to influence to the third color. Is there some obvious reason that I'm not understanding? If not, why not have the BSA allow to influence to any color? Then we won't have tons of people frustrated and complaining the first year about not being able to influence to the color they prefer.

How does that not allow for all wing colors..? The dragons breed true, you pick up an egg from each different variant, grow them to adults, and bam, you can now influence an egg to be any color. I truly cannot understand where the confusion is coming from. And it's called balance. Why can't a male pink influence something to be female? It just can't. It can only influence something to be what it itself is.

[HeatherMarie]

It requires you to have adult SAs of all three variants in order to allow for all wing colors, which means at the very least it will not allow for all wing colors the first year. Maybe even the second year if you had bad luck catching the other two variants the previous year. If it's the only way this would be implemented then sure whatever, go for it. But if there is a different way that will allow more freedom, sooner, I think that should be considered. Also, pinks are influencing genitalia, which I think is very different then influencing the color of feathers.

[Dragon_Arbock]

1 minute ago, Marie19R said:

It requires you to have adult SAs of all three variants in order to allow for all wing colors, which means at the very least it will not allow for all wing colors the first year. Maybe even the second year if you had bad luck catching the other two variants the previous year. If it's the only way this would be implemented then sure whatever, go for it. But if there is a different way that will allow more freedom, sooner, I think that should be considered. Also, pinks are influencing genitalia, which I think is very different then influencing the color of feathers.

Wing color is genetic, we should be questioning why we would even be able to influence it at all (but I won't cause I want to be able to change it). 

And you can have adults before the first year is over. Breeding season lasts 7 days and it only takes 5-6 days for dragons to grow to adulthood (with or without incubate). You'd just have to, well, prioritize. And I don't think it will be that hard to catch one of each. There's always enough AP Snow Angels.

[Tini]

As is wing color is not genetic at all, its based on who owns it. Unless you mean the breeding true bit, in which case, maybe its as simple as the hatching wants to be like its mom.

 

I see no real reason for us not to be able to pick the coloration we want with 1 adult. There's no lore I know of to explain why certain people can only have certain colored wings to begin with, nothing that says the adult couldn't influence a child to any of the three colorations.

[Dragon_Arbock]

@Tinibree Being realistic here, wing color would be genetic. Stripe's colors are genetic (I honestly don't see why gemshards aren't). Gender in this game actually isn't, cause gender in some reptiles is determined by heat.

 

But regardless, because male and females Pinks are locked only to being able to influence an egg to be their own gender (even though scientifically they should probably be able to do either), that's just how it is. There's a precedent for 'influence' actions to be tied specifically to a subtype of a dragon, rather than the whole breed. Male can only influence male, Female can only influence female.. so White SA can only influence white, Gold is gold, etc. I don't see a reason to change that.

[Ruby Eyes]

Genetic - just like Flamingo colours, eh? Or, to stay in-game: Purebred Stripeds randomly create colours of all kinds (and scales are not that much different from feathers).

This is a game of dragons and magic users, I don't think genetics should be called in as a limiter for anything.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

You also have to remember that swapping with other people if you desperately need a different color at the start of the week is possible (although again, how many lines are you going to need to both not be bred true AND not be your scroll color? Presumably only alternating ones--and that's a very small amount of lines, from what I've seen)

 

I imagine true bred lines are most popular, so I like that as the default option.

 

Then for those folks who want to continue alternating lines, I see any of these options:

- Adults influence to SCROLL COLOR: keeps the unique aspect of the breed, but means you'd have to collaborate with others if you needed different alternate lines

- Adults influence to THEIR COLOR: pretty simple and allows full control after the first year (or even during the first year, if you pick up a few SAs early)

- Adults influence to ANY COLOR: while it does allow full control from the start, it's my least favorite because it seems TOO easy and throws the unique history of SAs basically put the window

 

That being said, while I have my preferences, I'd be happy with ANY way to get all the colors. All options have pros and cons, which are of course subjective (or we wouldn't be discussing still XD), so I'd be quite content with whatever method, even if it's not my favorite. The only things I'm actively AGAINST are completely random wing colors or alternating years. I like having control over what I'm working on. Christmas dragons are already a one week a year project, we don't need extra headaches on top of them. We've had that with Solstices and Aegises already and it's not been much fun.

 

Anddd to play devil's advocate while I'm here... I'm warming back up to the idea of making them follow scroll color (as normal), but be able to be influenced by adults to be their color (so for the first year you'd have to rely either on swapping help or early SA grabs, but next year you'd have full control). Why this way over the simpler, easier other way? Because, well, as much as the current scroll lock is annoying, when it's gone I will have some nostalgia for the history. Something like this would preserve that aspect while also allowing us a new world of options.

 

But again... I'd be pleased as pie with just about anything.  

 

[Dragon_Arbock]

2 hours ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Genetic - just like Flamingo colours, eh? Or, to stay in-game: Purebred Stripeds randomly create colours of all kinds (and scales are not that much different from feathers).

This is a game of dragons and magic users, I don't think genetics should be called in as a limiter for anything.

There is a suspension of disbelief, but if they were real, with Stripes, white would simply be the dominant color, with any other colors being recessive. The color is still dependent on which dragons you breed the stripe with, so it's not random, and is in fact, genetic. And what do Flamingos have to do with this...? They get their color from eating shrimp. Everyone knows that. That's not 'magic' (and flamingos, the bird, are born white, which is genetic as well- genetics and biology determine most everything about a living organism).

 

But people are missing my point. I said Male or Female pinks, there's no reason that a Male can't influence an egg to be Female, or vice versa, besides gameplay limitations. So even if Snow Angel colors are 'magic', gameplay limitations would not let you use any color to influence any other color. It would only be Gold to gold, White to white, and Tricolor to Tricolor, cause that's just how this game works- you have to have one of  a 'thing' to make more of a thing, always.

 

And as ADP said, how often are you really going to need to influence eggs at all if they breed true by default? (So you get all colors just by picking up eggs from the AP).

If you choose not to go that route, then you will need to use a BSA though, and a lot more often.

 

[Jazeki]

Going by the flamingo logic, Snow Angels would only be able to influence to scroll color because they're eating whatever their Snow Angel buddies on that scroll are eating. 

 

Of ADP's suggestions, I like these two (preferably a combo). 

1 hour ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

- Adults influence to SCROLL COLOR: keeps the unique aspect of the breed, but means you'd have to collaborate with others if you needed different alternate lines

- Adults influence to THEIR COLOR: pretty simple and allows full control after the first year (or even during the first year, if you pick up a few SAs early)

 

I get the logic of the third option, but it seems a bit much and like ADP says, it erases what everyone else had to experience to get to this point. Why even have scroll-locked or scroll-determined colors if Snow Angels are powerful enough to make others be whatever color we want? Also, I still am of the persuasion that it makes the most sense for Snow Angels to influence to their own colors. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Jazeki

[Ruby Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

cause that's just how this game works

This game works however TJ decides to make it work.

 

2 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

you have to have one of  a 'thing' to make more of a thing, always

You actually start out with nothing and can simply go and collect eggs from the cave, even a fabled Gold.

But this topic here isn't about *making* something, it's about *changing* something.

 

1 minute ago, Jazeki said:

Going by the flamingo logic, Snow Angels would only be able to influence to scroll color because they're eating whatever their Snow Angel buddies on that scroll are eating. 

Well, that's how it seems to work right now (whether it be food or any other environmental variable). Grab any given Snow Angel baby, and she takes on whatever your scroll is set to give to her.

[Jazeki]

Just now, Ruby Eyes said:

 

 

Well, that's how it seems to work right now (whether it be food or any other environmental variable). Grab any given Snow Angel baby, and she takes on whatever your scroll is set to give to her.

I'm aware. I was just commenting on the flamingo argument in terms of genetics being thrown out the window. If it were to influence the BSA, it would support the idea that we could only influence eggs to be our scroll color (instead of any other color).

[Jazeki]

1 minute ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I don't quite get if you agree with me there or not. As far as I see it, Snow Angel colour so far works just like Flamingo feathers. Colour depends on environment. That seems to have been the original intent of them. Changing that to being genetic and genetic only is not something I see narratively justified. Using any kind of BSA or magic or whatever makes more sense than genetics, to me.

 

I prefer the idea of genetics as DC pushes towards a more realistic environment (i.e mana exposure influencing different species like the Thalassians, colors dependent upon actual times or moon phases or who they are bred to [coppers, spinels] , dragons being chosen based on realism over aesthetics). I understand that it's TJ's game and he decides what happens, but even though we know magic, none of what we even do points to the idea that we do anything to influence what a dragon actually does (aside from fogging). And I dunno, it just feels weird to me to decide something "because magic" in this instance. 

 

My previous comment still stands about Snow Angels influencing to be any/all colors. Of course, I would welcome my rainbow-magic wielding Snow Angel if option 3 happens. 

[Ruby Eyes]

Magic is just science that's not understood yet. (I forgot who said this, it's not my own wisdom, sadly.)

 

I think the main reason for me disliking the idea of an adult Snow Angel BSA is that you would *need* other players for it. No other BSA (besides Teleport) enforces that much interaction. I want my dragons to be male/female? I use my own dragons for that. I grab Pinks from the cave, wait until I have enough of each gender, and from there I'm set - all by myself.

But for the proposed adult Snow Angel BSA, I with my tri-colour-coded scroll would need to find players with gold- and white-coded scrolls and ask them to turn my egg or hatchling a specific colour, or breed a specific colour for me however this would be implemented.

 

I dislike forced interaction, even if it's just once per colour.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Ruby Eyes

[Dragon_Arbock]

Just a post to summarize our options, so people know what has 'official TJ support';

-Breeding true

-Rotation

 

Any BSA we make is to act as a 'catch-all' band-aid to one of these two. Most people seem to not like the idea of rotation because it takes too long.

Do keep in mind that a BSA has not been confirmed to even be on the table, and we have to make it as fair and balanced as possible, or we just won't have one.

 

Also, he doesn't seem quite keen on allowing people to have all three CBs, but I might be reading into that too much.

 

Edit;
@Ruby Eyes - the BSA is assuming you can get the other colored adult via breeding. *points to what I just wrote in this post* The BSA is meant to supplement one of these options, not be the only solution.

 

(lord, can't have polls in the suggestions cause people won't read the topic before they vote- people don't read it anyway)

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dragon_Arbock

[olympe]

With the addition of a BSA that allows you to influence SA colors, any kind of change would be fine with me. (I've got enough of my "regular scroll color" to influence all eggs I'm likely able to hatch in a given year, so even rotation wouldn't bother me much.)

 

However, without the ability to influence at all, I'd only be (moderately) okay with "breeding true". Because, well, alternating lines are a thing. 

 

Personally, I prefer even the status quo over rotation (without influence).

[Jazeki]

1 hour ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Magic is just science that's not understood yet. (I forgot who said this, it's not my own wisdom, sadly.)

 

I think the main reason for me disliking the idea of an adult Snow Angel BSA is that you would *need* other players for it. No other BSA (besides Teleport) enforces that much interaction. I want my dragons to be male/female? I use my own dragons for that. I grab Pinks from the cave, wait until I have enough of each gender, and from there I'm set - all by myself.

But for the proposed adult Snow Angel BSA, I with my tri-colour-coded scroll would need to find players with gold- and white-coded scrolls and ask them to turn my egg or hatchling a specific colour, or breed a specific colour for me however this would be implemented.

 

I dislike forced interaction, even if it's just once per colour.

I don't think you are forced to do anything. With inherited colors, you can just pick the other two up in the AP. With turning a specific color, you can probably be sure there will be a "color for me" thread or that people will just toss things in the departure thread. No real reason to feel forced to interact when people offer to do the work for you.

[Earth Gurl]

This is not my jurisdiction, but please keep it civil. Calling others names will not be tolerated. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and shouldn't be disrespected. 

[Ruby Eyes]

1 hour ago, Jazeki said:

I dunno, it just feels weird to me to decide something "because magic" in this instance.

I may be a bit dense here, but how is a BSA "influence the little one to be colour X" not magic? Does the adult stick her feathers onto the hatchling?

 

TJ himself gave us the elements and dragons' alignments to them. I don't think it's so far outside of Galsreim's setting that their Ice alignment could have an effect on the hatchling if they perused it in a specific way. Including, you know, having the little one just play in the snow.

[Dragon_Arbock]

Just now, Ruby Eyes said:

I may be a bit dense here, but how is a BSA "influence the little one to be colour X" not magic? Does the adult stick her feathers onto the hatchling?

 

TJ himself gave us the elements and dragons' alignments to them. I don't think it's so far outside of Galsreim's setting that their Ice alignment could have an effect on the hatchling if they perused it in a specific way. Including, you know, having the little one just play in the snow.

The problem is 'because magic'. Explain it. Explain maybe how two calico cats (clones) can be genetically identical but be born with different markings- because environmental pressure also has an affect on which genes activate and deactivate. Or maybe SAs have a different mechanism entirely. Don't make a comment about how 'magic is science' without being willing to explain what it does or why.

[Jazeki]

5 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I may be a bit dense here, but how is a BSA "influence the little one to be colour X" not magic? Does the adult stick her feathers onto the hatchling?

 

TJ himself gave us the elements and dragons' alignments to them. I don't think it's so far outside of Galsreim's setting that their Ice alignment could have an effect on the hatchling if they perused it in a specific way. Including, you know, having the little one just play in the snow.

I was ignoring the hatchling aspect completely and working with the understanding that adults influence eggs like pink dragons do. And maybe she does? Collective snow angel dander makes the babies take on a different tint. Maybe the snow temperature makes them have different colors. 

 

If y'all want to figure out how a hatchling bsa works, it's up to you.

 

Also, bsa is breed specific action, which means it's a characteristic that one breed has regardless of how we raise or interact with it. 

[Jazeki]

@Ruby Eyes I said I was ok with the roll in the snow bsa. My main point was that I'm not about to address something that I didn't come up with in the first place.

 

I guess I just have a hard time understanding how a snow angel would know how to change colors to a snow angel she has never interacted with. 

[HeatherMarie]

Wow, so much drama going on. Why do people seem to assume they know what can and can't happen in this game? No one knows that except TJ, and so far in this thread TJ has *not* shot down any of the suggestions that are being discussed. It's frustrating when people who have no actual influence on the site act like they can shoot down suggestions just because they don't like them.

 

Personally I think having an SA hatchling able to influence it's own wing-color is completely logical, especially if explained by using their Elemental Affinity of Ice to make the feathers change color through temperature, since apparently that's how gender is influenced. Seems simple enough to me. But it seems like most people don't like that for some reason.

 

I'm still of the opinion that wing-color should simply stay scroll-coded and this suggestion shouldn't happen at all, but I'm still here trying to figure out what would be the best implementation if it does happen. Pairing "breeding true" with an adult-SA BSA seems to be the most popular option, but I still do not like the BSA-option only being able to influence to scroll color. Being able to influence to the adult's own color would be much better, since at least that way after the first year or two you'd have the ability to influence to any color you wanted.

[Dragon_Arbock]

We all have influence on the site. Some of us (I am not the only one, only the most vocal), do not like the hatchling idea.

I do wish to stress however, that while TJ has not exactly *shot down* some of these, he has openly supported two options, and what is and isn't already in the game is also an important precedent. Hatchlings do not have BSAs in this game, even harmless ones like Splash. If not for established gameplay trends, otherwise there's nothing stopping us from demanding anything and everything ad nauseam. I intend to pursue an option more likely to be supported by the creator/owner.

50 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

Pairing "breeding true" with an adult-SA BSA seems to be the most popular option, but I still do not like the BSA-option only being able to influence to scroll color. Being able to influence to the adult's own color would be much better, since at least that way after the first year or two you'd have the ability to influence to any color you wanted.

That is what I want as well. I'm not a fan of having adults influence to scroll color or to a color that they themselves are not. It makes more sense to me to have Gold = gold, White = white, and Tricolor = tricolor.

 

Edit, I'd also like to say- if you give the hatchling a BSA that lets it directly control itself, then why should I need adult dragons to do anything? Why can't I influence and incubate and egg all in the egg's actions, for free? Because it has to be earned. That's the whole point of any of the things in this game that allow you to control the rng or make things more convinient

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dragon_Arbock