ANSWERED:Sorting Dragons Questionair

[olympe]

Not exactly answering the questionaire again, but please hear me out anyway.

 

According to the poll "Why do we sort?" found here, the most important reasons for sorting are these:

1. putting dragons together that, for some reason, belong together
2. making your scroll look nice
3. easier management of lineages ("I want to find my pairs/lineages easier for breeding")

Since sometimes dragons belong with more than one group of other dragons (especially CBs and 2nd gens), sorting alone won't be a cure, no matter how far you expand the feature. I think this point goes hand in hand with point #3, organizing your lineages. However, being able to add more criteria to custom sorts (sort by breed, then gender, then age) would help with making our scrolls look nice.

 

In order to group dragons in a way that makes them easy to find and manage, we need more than just sorting. We need an easy way to access predetermined groups of dragons. Which leads to either tags or tabs or a hybrid thereof.

 

For most lineages, tabs would be enough - if we could have banners (or whatever) with a customizable text dividing said tab.

 

Let's assume someone does a checkered lineage of male arsani x female aria. They create a tab labelled "arsani x aria". They'll know that they'll find all of their dragons belonging to that breeding project in this tab - but things might get confusing inside. So, they sort their arsani x aria dragons. First, there are the CBs already used for the project. (This avoids mishaps like breeding one CB more than once for the same project - which is an easy way to ruin your project.) Then there's a visible divider (written on it is "2nd gens" in big, broad letters), followed by the 2nd gens. Then another divider (with "3rd gens" written on it), followed by the project's 3rd gen dragons. And so forth.

 

Of course, depending on a user's preference, these dividers need to be customizable. Some people might want to sub-divide things further to discern between mated and unmated dragons of a certain generation. Or whatever.

 

 

Question to everyone: Would such a feature be enough to organize our dragons? Or would it need more?

 

If we go down the route of tabs, however, I'd like for tabs to be visible on the scroll page itself. At least if that is feasible.

[Fiona]

I deleted my previous answers. I'm going to try to more clearly spell out what I am looking for.

 

First of all, what is lacking in the current system? Anyway you sort them, our dragons are still essentially one long list of dragons. I have 16 pages of dragons at 200 dragons per page. Even roughly knowing where to look it takes some doing to find particular groups of dragons, let alone a specific dragon. Further, it's hard to track where I'm at in a project because I can't quickly see what dragons are part of the project. I don't honestly know how many CB coppers I have because I have no way of seeing that except opening up each view page and tallying them. I have about 300 coppers total... I'm SO not doing that.

 

Next, I'm going to use an analogy to try to illustrate what the current shortcomings are and what I'm looking to solve.

 

Let's consider each dragon as a file folder in a room. Each file folder contains all the information about that dragon including code, name, breed, gender. Also date the egg was laid or stolen, hatched, reached adulthood. Also parents, if applicable, and children. Also lineage. Also, more exact information about their role on my scroll: are they part of a project? Which project? What is their role in the project? Are they part of multiple projects? Do they have a special significance outside of any projects? This more exact information is currently missing from their online data but exists in my head. It does have to be taken into account when sorting and when locating a particular dragon. Name code, breed and gender are on the outside of the file folder but all other information can only be accessed by opening the folder. Worse, the filters for finding a particular type of folder are very limited.

 

So, currently we have stacks and piles of file folders in our dragon file room. They're piled on the desk and on the floor and in the corners. I know about where to find each file but still have to hunt through the stacks to find the particular one I want. What would expedite the search and how can I see quickly where I'm at in my projects?

 

If I could put all my dragons into a filing cabinet, with clearly labeled drawers, I could quickly see how my projects are going. I could locate groups of dragons easily. The ability to further subdivide each drawer would make it easy to keep large projects organized so not only would I be able to track the overall project better, but also the individual parts of the project. This would be the role of Tabs.

 

That would keep my projects organized but there are also going to be a lot of times I want to access a particular type of dragon quickly that would cross projects. If I could add labels to each file and filter what shows by the labels I could bring up all the dragons that fit that criteria. Rather like having sticky notes on the outsides of each dragon file. "Silver", "3rd gen", "EG" > being able to locate a dragon based on multiple criteria. This is where Tags would come into play.

 

So, a unique place for each dragon in the filing system -> Tabs. Clearly labeled.

And multiple search options for locating each dragon -> Tags. Multiple tags available for each dragon.

 

 

As far as how such a system would affect others coming onto my scroll and looking for things, the Tabs should show to visitors but giving them the option to use the filters to bring up subsets of your scroll would be useful for certain gifting groups who have criteria. People just coming onto the scroll to look around could browse the tabs. People checking to see if you have particular things would know what they're looking for and could use the tags to find them.

 

So, in brief:

Tabs is organizational. Keeping track of what I've got.

Tags is locational. Finding what I've got when I need to.

I need both.

[jumpsnake]

THIS.

 

Some of this is admittedly for locating dragons, but most of it is having it clearly organised and separated so I know clearly and easily what dragons I own. It's more about how my collection looks and feels than how easily I can find something. At the moment, even when well organised - which it is for the most part - it feels like a mess because all the groups I have in my head flow into each other with no delineation at all.

TJ, you asked at the top of this page:

What is your actual goal with placing dragons in a specific location on your scroll? What is the purpose of doing so; what benefit does it confer?

 

Prince Xanthius answers this very eloquently here. This is true for me also. Yes, I really want to be able to find the dragon I'm looking for. If there was a way to search for that dragon, the problem of finding it would be solved.

 

However, I would really like my scroll to look a certain way. Having something different than one long list is just more aesthetically pleasing to some people, myself included. Maybe this is a difference in how our brains work-- but the system we have now does not allow me to keep track of things visually, and I need to be able to do that. Heck, I can't even remember some of the really cool things I have because I have no where 'special' to put them, to separate them from everything else.

[Natayah]

TJ, if there was a way that I could perma set certain dragons in a certain order, and then any other dragons I got after that would sort by various simple rule sets I would be 100% Ok with that. I used to manually sort my dragons to keep this effect, but everytime I get a "New" dragon, it has to be re-sorted. There is no way for me to "Perma Keep/Set" the Dragons I do want to sort in a Special Way, but leave the rest to sort however.

 

I mean, I like Tabs and Tags and all of that, but my biggest complaint is manual sorting must be done continuously. If I could set something once or twice for the dragons I care about, and then let everything else sort under it under some general rule set, I would be the happiest clam ever.

 

And it is more so people "visiting" my scroll can find my nicer, paired, pretty lineaged dragons faster for Breeding Requests vs having to hunt thru everything. I like pretty scrolls, but it is more for others than me, tbh. I don't want to have to keep a list offsite I have to constantly update.

 

I want to do it once (or if I decide to change it, then do it that time again) and it to be set and done. I don't have time or patience or care to spend hours attempting to organize dragon pixels on an ongoing basis. Once is enough.

Edited August 2, 2016 by natayah

[The_Impossible_Girl]

Is the sorting expressive enough for what we want? For me the sorting option we have now allows for a lot of user expression, however it quickly becomes difficult to manage dragons with.

 

 

Could it be solved through the sorting system? y/n and please explain

Yes the problem could be fixed with a sorting system in which each of the dragons were placed into a specific group. It would also help if more then one dragon could be moved at a time.

 

Would a rule-based sort (instead of manually placing each of your dragons) work? You could define the rules under which the sort works.

Yes, I would find a rule-based sort to be very useful.

 

What are the underlying problems you have with the current system?

- Is it locating dragons? Something else?

I find locating dragons is becoming difficult and that sorting dragons one at a time is starting to feel tedious since I often have multiple types of the same dragon to sort.

 

Is the problem Locating dragons?

If so, can the problem be solved with some sort of search?

I like the search option, but I would rather not search each dragon by their code. If the rule based option were in place then I would be fine with searching for dragons by rules.

 

Assuming the underlying problems requires breaking the list of dragons down into smaller subsets of dragons that can be sorted:

- Are the groups unique? (ie can a dragon be in multiple groups)

I would be okay with dragons being classified in multiple groups. Since most of my vampire dragons have descriptions in the queue, it would be nice if I could classify them as described, and as BSA. Although I would only want to see the dragons in one group at a time when I'm viewing my scroll.

 

- Where do groups show up?

- - Breeding?

- - User-pages?

- - Any action lists that involve dragons?

All of the above

 

 

How does one add things to groups?

- Does this mechanism work for adding 10,000 dragons to groups?

I think it would be best if a similar mechanism to that of the pm sorting were in place. That way a user could chose to move one dragon at a time, or move lots of dragons at the same time.

 

Is there a size limit to Groups?

No.

 

Does the solution hurt the visibility of certain dragons? (eg are dragons in a "non-default" group harder to find if you don't know what group they're in, or will people browse to non-default groups?)

It would probably help if each group were accurately labeled so that users would have an idea of what dragons are inside of them.

 

Are there specific features you'd like to see?

Sorting more then one dragon at a time and a way to tag certain dragons to make them easier to search for. I would also like to see groups that dragons could be placed into that would make finding and sorting them easier.

[HeatherMarie]

The question isn't "is the current sorting system enough," it's whether a sorting system could possibly be expressive enough. Extending what we already have may possibly be easier to understand than layering new things on top of it.

 

Why do you say probably not? Why couldn't that be a thing? If you could search for those things, would it solve your problem?

 

I think that's still one-layer removed. What is your actual goal with placing dragons in a specific location on your scroll? What is the purpose of doing so; what benefit does it confer?

If we could search for inbred, certain types of lineages, plus the breed, I guess a search would be okay. So I could pull up "stairstep Royal Blue" and it would show me all the Royal Blues I have with stairstep lineages. If we could do that with search, specifying more then one thing at a time (stairstep *in* Royal Blues), then I guess I could use a search just fine.

 

My goal with placing certain dragons in certain places is really just preference. Right now it doesn't work at all. For example, I would like to know that my Royal Blue "Margo Black Roberts" is halfway down the second page. Simply because that is where I would want to keep her. But right now, as I get more dragons, she will move and end up on the 3rd page or more. I would also love to keep my rarer dragons towards the middle of my scroll, but again, they move pages as I get more dragons.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Marie19R

[olympe]

The problem I have with a search feature is that it uses JavaScript. Which I don't use on DC (unless there's an event) because it makes using certain actions rather cumbersome.

 

Besides, better sorting (based on multiple rules) + search =/= better overview over what you have. Besides, clicking on a tab or tag named "Lunar Herald x Stripe checker with varying colors" is much easier than doing a search every time you want to look up that project. Also, you can sort the dragons in your "Lunar Herald x Stripe checker with varying colors" tab according to your preferences, probably generation, which gives you a better overview than just an unsorted list of all dragons belonging to the project. And a better overview is essential for the more extensive lineage projects.

Edited August 2, 2016 by olympe

[pinkgothic]

I have a weakness for surveys.

 

Is an idealized sorting expressive enough for what we want?

Maybe, depending on what we're sorting. See musings below.

 

The existing implementation isn't, but could the problem be solved through changes to the sorting system?

Not exclusively.

 

What about a rule-based sort (instead of manually placing each of your 7000 dragons, define rules under which they sort?

Could be a neat feature and help sorting into sections, but stand-alone it wouldn't solve the problems.

 

There are a lot of problems with rule-based sorting that are not trivial to solve, though. For example, if I had a 2G ridgewing paired with a 2G winter magi, then I'd want the 2G ridgewing to be paired with the 2G winter magi, and not with other 2G ridgewings. For some pairs in constellations like that a rule like has_had_offspring_primarily_with(winter_magis) might be a viable rule, for others not. But at some point you'll end up with is_a_rainbow_pattern() - or even has_been_tagged_with(rainbow_spiral) or something like that, in which case you might as well implement sections.

 

Otherwise, what is the underlying problem?

- Is it locating dragons?

I can usually find my own dragons easily enough. What I'm missing is:

 

1) aesthetics. I want my "main scroll" to be separate from my other projects, rather than running on into them in a way that requires specifically named dragons as markers between them (currently there's the not fully accurately named xx END OF SCROLL xx frozen CB pink hatchling at the end of it, but otherrwise you might honestly just miss it and not realise I'm deliberately transitioning from one sorting pattern (approximately a block of four dragons per species, species colour-sorted) to another (alternating species) to another (breeding projects which can look a bit like alternating species but not quite)).

 

2) linking. At the moment I can't toss 'valuable' lineages into one part of my scroll and then link people to it. I need to say 'if you have scroll pagination set to <n> then it should start in the middle of page <m> and stop near the top of page <x>'.

 

3) transparency. Ideally sections I've chosen would have a little description so people on my scroll can also just browse the sections and figure out if they're looking for goodies in the wrong place more quickly.

 

And of course the inverse of #3 for people who like breeding things for people, i.e. I'd like to benefit from being able to find things on other people's scroll in the way they intended me to find it.

 

(A minor additional point sections would help solve, depending on how the UI is done, is that I don't e.g. keep scrolling past the end of my main scroll when I want to put something at the end of said main scroll. That's frustrating in sum, but barely worth a mention.)

 

If it's not locating dragons (locating things is generally best solved via search) [...]

Hypothetically it should be possible to search for dragons (in the same way it's hypothetically possible to solve these problems with rules), if search terms could include 'is a checker', 'is a spiral', 'has an alternating pattern', 'is a rainbow evengen', and other things that are normally handled on a level of pure semantic understanding, and you can link to search results. But I don't think it's realistic we could determine (and code) for all the kind of things that people look for, though, so for presumably realistic variants of search: No.

 

...then assuming the underlying problems requires break the list of dragons down into smaller subsets of dragons that can be sorted:

- Are the groups unique? (i.e. can a dragon be a part of multiple groups, or only one?)

 

A dragon should be able to be in multiple sections. (That said, even allowing dragons to appear only in one section would help immensely.)

 

- Where do groups show up?

- - Breeding?

- - User-pages?

- - Any action that lists dragons?

 

- The publicly visible user/scroll page (where dragons are not otherwise hidden by settings; empty groups should not be displayed)

- The privately visible user/scroll page

 

Other stuff would be a bonus, but not necessary for me. I'd be happy with actions just continuing to use a flat list. I'd also be happy with that if you initiate a multi-dragon action from a specific section that you'd first be 'trapped' in that section until you click on something to show you the whole scroll.

 

How does one add things to groups?

- Does this mechanism work for adding 10,000 dragons to groups?

 

The way we can do custom sorting now would be nice - click and drag dragons into groups - with the addition of being able to 'duplicate' dragons, maybe by holding shift while dragging or something like that, and in consequence to [x] duplicates away (ensuring that a dragon is in at least one section).

 

(Note that while a dragon should be in at least one section I don't think that section in turn needs to be publicly visible. But that's another topic.)

 

I picture the sections visually distinct on the sorting page - something as simple as a thick-bordered rectangle with a label would be enough as a minimalist solution, and would even be the only change necessary if dragons are only allowed to be grouped into one section. (But, to stress, I favour multiples.)

 

Is there a size limit to groups?

No.

 

Does the solution hurt the visibility of certain dragons? (e.g. are dragons in a "non-default" group harder to find if you don't know what group they're in, or will people browse to non-default groups?)

Everything past page one of my scroll (size dependent on user settings) is currently hurt in visibility, so I don't see sections hurting visibility any more.

[TJ09]

The problem I have with a search feature is that it uses JavaScript. Which I don't use on DC (unless there's an event) because it makes using certain actions rather cumbersome.

 

Besides, better sorting (based on multiple rules) + search =/= better overview over what you have. Besides, clicking on a tab or tag named "Lunar Herald x Stripe checker with varying colors" is much easier than doing a search every time you want to look up that project. Also, you can sort the dragons in your "Lunar Herald x Stripe checker with varying colors" tab according to your preferences, probably generation, which gives you a better overview than just an unsorted list of all dragons belonging to the project. And a better overview is essential for the more extensive lineage projects.

Any sort of tagging or grouping feature is pretty much guaranteed to require Javascript.

[Daydreamer09]

Is an idealized sorting expressive enough for what we want?

Well, I'm rather leery about there being any "idealized" sorting method. Because people tend to look at and tackle problems differently. There's a variety of ways players go about organizing their scrolls. So I'd say no.

 

The existing implementation isn't, but could the problem be solved through changes to the sorting system?

I think crafting sorting tools for players rather than coming up with a singular system would be ideal.

 

What about a rule-based sort (instead of manually placing each of your 7000 dragons, define rules under which they sort?

I'm curious about how these rules can be implemented. Would a hierarchy of rules be possible? It may get rather complicated based upon how players wish to set up their scrolls.

 

I myself have different sections of dragons that follow varying rules. I have one section of unmated dragons, followed by a section of miscellaneous breeding pairs sorted alphabetically by the male. After that, I have breeding lineages which are organized chromatically then by generation with breeding pairs together.

 

Otherwise, what is the underlying problem?

Hmm, well I guess in my case the problem would be able to section dragons off from one another. But the group questions below address that I suppose.

 

-Is it locating dragons?

For the most part, I don't personally have problems locating dragons. Though a large scroll does make it difficult sometimes. I've used the special name url to search for dragons along with ctrl+f5 searching in the alternate custom sort mode.

 

If so, what axes need to be searched on?

Name, ID and Breed sound reasonable. The preset labels and custom labels I like very much as well. I'd nick Parents and replace it with a Generation or a CB filter. I'm not going to remember a dragon's parents. Especially if they're from someone else's scroll.

 

If it's not locating dragons (locating things is generally best solved via search), then assuming the underlying problems requires break the list of dragons down into smaller subsets of dragons that can be sorted:

 

Are groups unique? (i.e. can a dragon be a part of multiple groups, or only one?)

One should be able to tag or mark a dragon for multiple groups. Definitely. I like the idea of the player having less restriction in their sorting method.

 

Where do groups show up?

-Breeding?

-User pages?

-Any action that lists dragons?

They should definitely appear in user pages. In regards to showing up in breeding lists and action lists, I could see a drop down menu listing all the different groups to sort through for breeding/actions. (Similar to the current "Filter by" option on the top of the scroll menu.)

 

How does one add things to groups?

Marking them in some sort of way or adding tags to them I suppose.

 

Does this mechanism work for adding 10,000 dragons to groups?

All at one time? If it's set up in a way where you checkmark or highlight through a list of dragons to simultaneously add them to a specific group then, yes.

 

Is there a size limit to groups?

A scroll doesn't really have a size limit, so I'd say groups shouldn't either.

 

Does the solution hurt the visibility of certain dragons? (e.g. are dragons in a "non-default" group harder to find if you don't know what group they're in, or will people browse to non-default groups?)

If the previously mentioned 'search' method were implemented alongside the grouping method, then that would solve the problem of sifting through groups to find a single dragon.

[Prince_Xanthius]

Is an idealized sorting expressive enough for what we want?

No, for the reasons in my previous post - sorting for me is more about how my scroll looks, not how I locate things.

 

What about a rule-based sort (instead of manually placing each of your 7000 dragons, define rules under which they sort?

Well, theoretically sure. But it would still require a lot of manual input/tagging to set up. There is no way the code can account for subjective things like 'cool code' or 'meaningful lineage' or 'private joke with brother'.

 

And even if we ignore subjective attributes, to code to automatically list, say all dragons in one group by release date of species then gender/age, followed by a group in alphabetical order, males then females, then a different group based on lineages and next to their mates etc - it would become too cumbersome, and might as well do it all by hand any way as it would be quicker and easier than tagging all the appropriate dragons, then writing the large number of rules I'd require for my scroll, and then checking that it all worked correctly etc etc. And if I wanted to change any of that?? Nope no way. I think pinkgothic said they same thing a lot more succinctly.

 

Otherwise, what is the underlying problem? Is it locating dragons?

No, not really.

 

If the problem is locating dragons, what sorts of situations are people looking for dragons? If the problem is locating dragons, can the problem be solved with some sort of search? If so, what axes need to be searched on?

As I said locating isn't usually the problem, but searching for dragons to breed, or what lines other people have etc can be time-consuming with the current system. I guess if we could look up breed/s AND generation AND type of lineage, on someone elses scroll, that'd be a start.

 

If it's not locating dragons (locating things is generally best solved via search), then assuming the underlying problems requires break the list of dragons down into smaller subsets of dragons that can be sorted:

Are groups unique? (i.e. can a dragon be a part of multiple groups, or only one?)

Unique; for the purpose of display, each dragon should only appear once. But they can have multiple tags/search functions attached, and you can search though an entire scroll at once, not just though each group separately.

Where do groups show up?

Breeding?

User pages?

Any action that lists dragons?

User pages for sure - that is basically THE POINT for me. The other 2 I'd list all dragons by default, but have a drop down search to only see dragons in a certain group for actions that list dragons.

 

How does one add things to groups? Does this mechanism work for adding 10,000 dragons to groups?

Check box --> Move would be simplest, though a drag and drop system could work. It would be slow for adding 10k dragons, but I feel leary about refusing to use a system because the truly massive scrolls would take a long time to sort into it. Any system except rule based will take ages to sort that size scroll, and I've already listed reasons why I don't think that's work above. Once added to a group the current custom sort systems would be fine as is.

Is there a size limit to groups? If not, see bullet point one with regards to "How do you keep ordering dragons within a group manageable?"

No

I mean, we cope now don't we? With a single group with no limits? So I am not actually sure of the relevance of this question. If I want to have one group of 10k instead of 20 groups of 500, surely that is my own business and perogative. Sorting and organisation always takes time to set up and keep in check, that's just life (unless rules, but we covered that).

 

Does the solution hurt the visibility of certain dragons? (e.g. are dragons in a "non-default" group harder to find if you don't know what group they're in, or will people browse to non-default groups?)

Honestly, I agree with pinkgothic - pages already hurts visibility. But finding a certain dragon from clearly labelled tabs is much easier than going through 10 pages of someone elses scroll trying to locate certain dragons with no clue as to how they have arbitarily sorted their scroll.