ANSWERED:Earning Special sprites via Activity

[Fuzzbucket]

Regarding complicated vs. easy reward systems: The reason for the complication of my suggestion was to reward raising a dragon all by yourself higher than trading for hatchies. I'm fine with a simpler system, as long as it's fair.

Actually that's a good point. Doing the whole thing "should" count for more, IMHO.

 

 

[Ha-Ki]

Maybe something like this then:

1 point for hatching an egg

1 point if a hatchie grows up

1 point if it did both on the same scroll

[Fuzzbucket]

Maybe something like this then:

1 point for hatching an egg

1 point if a hatchie grows up

1 point if it did both on the same scroll

That does seem fairer to me.

[DragonNighthowler]

I am fine with the cap you mentioned before, I was responding to people completely against any kind of cap.

 

We have limits on eggs, freezing, kills, zombie attempts, bsa etc. I think limits on points is a good thing and would inhibit people from exploiting. While there will always be cheaters, I prefer to minimize the effect their bad behavior can have on the cave than let them run wild and try to deal with it later.

Where did you get I was against any kind of cap? We are currently talking about the point system. That I'm against a cap for the reasons stated. After all, there IS already a cap in how many dragons you are able to raise at the same time.

 

As soon as we start talking about how we'll get the special sprites and which special sprites these will be, we'll see how this is handled.

[Thuban]

Maybe something like this then:

1 point for hatching an egg

1 point if a hatchie grows up

1 point if it did both on the same scroll

I think 2 points for both hatching and growing up. Its more of a commitment to do both

[Vhale]

Where did you get I was against any kind of cap? We are currently talking about the point system. That I'm against a cap for the reasons stated. After all, there IS already a cap in how many dragons you are able to raise at the same time.

 

As soon as we start talking about how we'll get the special sprites and which special sprites these will be, we'll see how this is handled.

Probably from what I highlighted and the people stating that cheaters exist and we just shouldn't worry about that.

 

And I like Thuban's point.

 

Edit:

 

Adding some points on caps.

 

The reasons for caps aren't just exploiters. But if TJ takes a few months to build this thing, he'd want it to last more than that. Plus, games are a sugar rush. There is a need to keep people from overdoing it and burning out. if people burn out, the site loses subscribers and retaining existing subscribers is easier than getting new ones.

 

Bear in mind, how many points are earned is relative to cost of dragon. So strict fine-tuning the number may be pointless. The only person with hard average dragon raising data is TJ.

 

Things to keep in mind.

Should teleported hatchies add points? I'd say no, cuts exploiters off at the knees and then TJ doesn't even have to track them.

 

Should points be based on max possible achievable? I'd say no. It would discourage trading, vamping, neglecteds. It also evens things out between people with tons of time and those without. Also horders versus collectors.

 

Buggy point possibilities. Vamps, Zombies, Soulpeace, Revives, Killing, Forcing (earthquake), Neglected. The coding for all those would need to be worked out. (mentioning because the devil is in the details, ie, the Halloween dragon getting added to the encyclopedia)

 

Oddballs: Unbreedables, Dinos, Papers, Cheese, Chickens. Should these be worth an extra point or a tradeable point to give catchers something extra?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Vhale

[DragonNighthowler]

That I'm against a cap for the reasons stated

 

Sorry if I worded this incorrectly but I thought my point was clear. I am against capping how many points a month you can get because the site already has a cap on how many eggs you can raise. Therefore, it makes no sense.

 

Also, getting an incuhatchable from the AP, hunting hatchlings in the AP, trading metallics for incuhatchable, etc, etc, etc, are all features which are part of the game, they are all legal.

As this is an individual goal, it doesn't matter if you aquire the points faster than me.

 

and the people stating that cheaters exist and we just shouldn't worry about that.

 

No, we shouldn't turn down a suggestion because of cheaters, as cheaters ARE going to keep existing, cheaters are going to try to turn the system's rules into their favor.

 

There are cheaters in EVERY game. The companies in charge of such games handle them as they can, by permabanning and using software to find them, not by stating artificial limits ONLY because there are people who will try to cheat.

 

Limits should be placed to balance the game, not because of cheaters. For example, the limit in how many eggs you can own at the same time, or the limit of waiting 5 hours before abandoning a CB egg were placed to keep users from emptying the cave or catching and releasing in order to find the nice things under the blockers, not because of cheaters.

Actually, it caused a different kind of cheating; multiscrolling.

 

Which kind of shows cheaters will always happen, no matter what you do.

 

Anyways, the way I envision this suggestion is to get certain sprites, like maybe CB hybrids, frills (if the spriter so wishes), and little else.

As you can see, I'm not talking about prize dragons or metallics. Only certain things you can't catch from the cave, which I think would be an interesting addition to the gameplay.

 

Should a cap be placed on the gift dragons? Yeah, sure. Maybe making then untradeable could be interesting. But we still have to know how this is going to work.

 

Should teleported hatchies add points? I'd say no

 

I don't agree. Teleport is a perfectly legal action. Why cap it? Because it allows people to trade for hatchlings? (please, avoid the cheater argument)

If they want to play that way, let them.

 

Not only that, imagine the possibilities. People willing to trade certain rare stuff for an X number of hatchlings. That would give those of us who don't have 2nd gen tinsels to trade a chance at rares. It could balance the market (or not, this are all hypothesies).

 

In any way, I don't think it's fair to put a cap on teleport.

Edited January 15, 2015 by DragonNighthowler

[Ha-Ki]

Not only that, imagine the possibilities. People willing to trade certain rare stuff for an X number of hatchlings. That would give those of us who don't have 2nd gen tinsels to trade a chance at rares. It could balance the market (or not, this are all hypothesies).

Balancing is exactly the reason why I prefer a system that rewards hatching eggs and trading the hatchies more than receiving the hatchies

[DragonNighthowler]

Balancing is exactly the reason why I prefer a system that rewards hatching eggs and trading the hatchies more than receiving the hatchies

Not sure I understand. Lets see.

 

From how the system works in my head, so far;

Egg to Hatchling; 1 point.

Hatchling to Adult; 1 point.

 

That is, Egg to adult in your scroll; 2 points.

 

If you trade a CB silver for 10 hatchlings, you only get 1 point when the hatchlings grow into adults (10 points). So there is already a limit. If you raised those dragons from egg to adulthood you'd get 20 points.

 

Will people trade for incuhatchables to get the 2 points? Yes, but why is that a bad thing? You can catch incuhatchables from the AP, you hatch them as soon as they touch your scroll and get 1 point.

Yet for some reason it is a bad thing to trade for incuhatchables?

 

I still fail to see the problem. Going back to my Splash analogy. Why does it matter if one user manages to splash with 100 shallow waters and the other do the same but with 10 shallow waters? The result is the same. The difference is, for the user with shallows it will take one day, while the other person will splash ten times as long.

Yet both get their bagde.

 

And I insist, this is speaking only about the points. If there should be a cap to avoid abuse of the system, maybe it should be on the special sprites themselves, making them untradeable for example (as with the GoNs). After all this would be for our own personal enjoyment.

[Syphoneira]

Not sure where the notion originated that anyone on this thread said that we just shouldn't worry about multi-scrollers, as though we're dismissing them lightly.

 

We do worry about them - but we also can't let worry about cheaters control everything we do.

 

 

What I've said on the subject on this thread was: 'Unfortunately, all we can do about multi's is to reassure ourselves that, sooner or later, they'll burn.

 

'Since we haven't, at this point, any means to prevent cheaters, who do, indeed have a huge impact, should we let fear of them alter our own behaviour and potentials? ...'

 

 

What DragonNighthowler has said:

 

'And what is stopping them now?

I'm going to jump into the bandwaggon of others and insist, cheaters are cheaters, and will be cheaters no matter what you do. There is never an effective way to fight them, therefore, taking them into account when considering a suggestion is futile.

 

Specially when considering a suggestion like this one, which is individual in nature. That is, if the cheater wants to risk himself with 5 scrolls, it doesn't affect you the least. The only person who can come out harmed is him, as soon as TJ catches him and bans him for multiscrolling.'

 

 

 

 

Also, (although I expect that Prize dragons are off the table here, and would adjust accordingly) personally, I'm OK with the sort of range sin offered in example in the first post:

 

 

 

... An option should be to (inversely) associate the cap with the levels. For example, in a lifetime, you can earn not more than 18 (9x2) eggs of a sprite that is associated with the first (easiest) level but only 2 (1x2) of a sprite that is associated with the 9th, the hardest, level. You could still earn a different sprite anyway. As in, if a Gold Shimmer is on level 9, you can earn no more than 2 in total. But you could still earn 2 Gold Tinsels. If a Silver Shimmer is on level 8, you could earn no more than 4. But you could still earn 4 Silver Tinsels. Please note that this is only an example, with full room for debate. ...

 

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

... An option should be to (inversely) associate the cap with the levels. For example, in a lifetime, you can earn not more than 18 (9x2) eggs of a sprite that is associated with the first (easiest) level but only 2 (1x2) of a sprite that is associated with the 9th, the hardest, level. You could still earn a different sprite anyway. As in, if a Gold Shimmer is on level 9, you can earn no more than 2 in total. But you could still earn 2 Gold Tinsels. If a Silver Shimmer is on level 8, you could earn no more than 4. But you could still earn 4 Silver Tinsels. Please note that this is only an example, with full room for debate. ...

I"m sorry but that totally confuses me. I know it's talking about caps but the levels and numbers just aren't working in my mind.

[_Sin_]

I think 2 points for both hatching and growing up. Its more of a commitment to do both

If we mix with Olympe's suggestion:

1 point for hatching an egg

1 point if a hatchie grows up

2 point if it did both on the same scroll

1 point for freezing a hatchie

 

I"m sorry but that totally confuses me. I know it's talking about caps but the levels and numbers just aren't working in my mind.

You are right. I tend to think with numbers. I will attempt to explain differently. So instead of the 9 levels I used to explain (unsuccessfully, I know) I'll use only 3 levels. That's flexible, could be 3 or 5 or 9 or... Anyway using only 3 levels I will call them Low, Medium, High.

 

- You are trying to become an experienced mage, you want to reach High level of knowledge.

- The Low level is the easiest one to reach.

- The High level is the hardest.

- Each level of knowledge is associated with a group of dragons.

- The group of dragons associated with the Low level includes the most common ones or just less wished for.

- The group of dragons associated with the High level includes the rarest or just more wished for.

- Once you reach the Low level of knowledge, you can conjure one of the dragons that is associated with that Low level

- Once you reach the Medium level of knowledge, you can conjure one of the dragons that is associated with the Medium level or one associated with the Low level

- Once you reach the High level of knowledge, you can conjure one of the dragons associated with any level (L/M/H) but, afterwards, your energy is depleted, your memory is erased and you start all over again, from no-knowledge.

 

 

Now for the cap, another example:

- In a lifetime you can't earn more than 2 of each (sprite/variation) associated with the High level (i.e. you can earn 2 CB Hollies AND 2 CB Gold Shimmers AND 2 CB Gold Tinsels but not 4 CB Hollies)

- In a lifetime you can't earn more than 8 of each (sprite/variation) associated with the Medium level

- In a lifetime you can't earn more than 16 of each (sprite/variation) associated with the Low level

Again, those numbers are arbitrary.

 

 

 

Because I had started with 9 levels I had put the cap in this way:

9th (Highest) -> cap = 2

8th -> cap = 4

7th -> cap = 6

6th -> cap = 8

5th -> cap = 10

4th -> cap = 12

3rd -> cap = 14

2nd -> cap =16

1st (Lowest) -> cap = 18

 

 

By the way, I didn't suggest a "daily cap" because the constraints of the game (max. # eggs and hatchies) are caps themselves.

 

Sigh, just edited because what I wrote before was so unclear. Thank you, Syphoneira for providing much needed help.

 

Edited January 16, 2015 by _Sin_

[Syphoneira]

Wasn't that originally of each sprite/variation, rather than total dragons in each level?

[_Sin_]

Wasn't that originally of each sprite/variation, rather than total dragons in each level?

I'm really sorry, got out of a day long meeting one hour or such ago and my brain is still in the meeting room. Do you mind restating the question?

I was envisaging something like the Highest level group including CB Hollies, CB Gold Shimmers. SO in total you could earn no more than 2 CB Hollies. But you could earn 2 CB Gold Shimmers too.

 

OK just figured out what you mean. How do I express what I meant?

[Syphoneira]

I'm really sorry, got out of a day long meeting one hour or such ago and my brain is still in the meeting room. Do you mind restating the question?

I was envisaging something like the Highest level group including CB Hollies, CB Gold Shimmers. SO in total you could earn no more than 2 CB Hollies. But you could earn 2 CB Gold Shimmers too.

 

OK just figured out what you mean. How do I express what I meant?

 

 

You just need to add back in the 'eggs of (each) sprite that is associated with' each level part that you had in before, only I altered the 'a' in your original to 'each' to make it more clear (I hope), lol.

[olympe]

Why not keep it really, really simple?

1 point for hatching.

1 point for raising to adulthood or freezing.

 

You'll automatically get 2 points if you do both. (Obviously.) If you trade for low-time hatchies, you might still be able to boost your score quite a bit.

 

Maybe, just maybe, add another point to the 2 you already get if the dragon is both hatched and raised/frozen on your scroll without ever leaving it.

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

Another random thought: Maybe add points for using typical actions?

• Catch an egg from either the cave or the AP. (+1 point, with a cap of +1/day)
• Breed an egg. (+1 point, with a cap of +1/day)
• Use the Teleport BSA of one of your dragons. Accepting or bidding on another person's teleport doesn't count. => Might be a slight incentive to trade or gift. (+1 point, with a cap of +1/day)
• Use Incubate. (+1 point, with a cap of +1/day)
• Use Influence. (+1 point, with a cap of +1/day)
• Use Summon. (I know, it can only be used once every 14 days...) (+1 point, with a cap of +1/day)
• Name a formerly unnamed dragon. (+1 point, with a cap of +1/day)
• Describe a dragon. => not a good idea due to backlog...

I certainly won't add Splash, Earthquake, Kill, Abandon, Expunge, Revive or Release to that list. Bite is debatable IMHO.

 

In any case, should any of these actions be rewarded with a point (which means a maximum of +8 extra points per day), the amount of points you get for hatching/raising/freezing a dragon needs to go up to maybe 3 points so raising dragons stays the main focus of the game.

[Tigerkralle]

That sounds a lot better.

 

But i really want to use the points for earning special sprites besides the ones that ar not a valid choice for HM and not for Prize Dragons! Or every other suggestion that has to do with being able to get a special sprite.

[Syphoneira]

Why not keep it really, really simple?

1 point for hatching.

1 point for raising to adulthood or freezing.

 

You'll automatically get 2 points if you do both. (Obviously.) If you trade for low-time hatchies, you might still be able to boost your score quite a bit.

 

Maybe, just maybe, add another point to the 2 you already get if the dragon is both hatched and raised/frozen on your scroll without ever leaving it. ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely agree! Ha-Ki, Thuban (and, I believe, others) have also suggested that the combination of dragons both hatching and growing up on the scroll should add an additional point, which makes sense and is evidently a popular suggestion.

 

And I understand that Sin has been working out ways by which API-linked fansite Viewing time might potentially be kept track of for additional points which, if feasible, would also encourage more people to run Viewers and improve the horrible U View ratios which slow cracking, hatching and gendering of our dragons.

 

 

Edit: hopefully improved sentence structure a bit...

Edited January 18, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Fuzzbucket]

But i really want to use the points for earning special sprites besides the ones that ar not a valid choice for HM and not for Prize Dragons! Or every other suggestion that has to do with being able to get a special sprite.

Please no - the whole point of this is that everyone can play the way they want to without HAVING to take part in this to get some dragons (except CB hybrids and alts.)

[LibbyLishly]

That sounds a lot better.

 

But i really want to use the points for earning special sprites besides the ones that ar not a valid choice for HM and not for Prize Dragons! Or every other suggestion that has to do with being able to get a special sprite.

Personally, I'm VERY uncomfortable with a minigame, a store, or earning-activity-points being used for new and exclusive sprites. What fuzzbucket said.

[_Sin_]

My apologies for MIA. I'm forcing myself to stay on the forum not more than few minutes at the time until I finish something IRL. As soon as I do, will go trough the thread and update, taking also in consideration the 600 prizes :-)

[zaverxi]

I think of all the suggestions so far, this one is the best so far as the spirit of DC is concerned. It encourages people to play *DC* the way we've been playing it for years and years and years. And when the dragonopedia was introduced, no one had an advantage at all, which was... well, more newbie friendly even if people like me with thousands of dragons didn't like having to raise stuff all over again.

 

Encouraging people to breed, raise, catch, and look at dragons is the best way to 'earn' things in my opinion. Like I said, the spirit of dragcave is sustained.

[Tigerkralle]

Please no - the whole point of this is that everyone can play the way they want to without HAVING to take part in this to get some dragons (except CB hybrids and alts.)

Okay mayby the structure of the sentence was wrong.

 

Earning the points happen passiv for things that we already doing here. We get eggs, we hatch the eggs, we raise the hatchlings, we use BSAs...

 

And i do not want it that we can use this point to get an CB Prize Dragon!

I want that i can use this for getting CB Soulpeace and all the other dragons that are available as a HM in previous years in the raffles!

 

Is my point now clear?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Oh, I like this more than the shop! Same idea but uses what you're already normally doing as currency. Good way to reward long term or highly active players for staying around. Me likey. :3

 

The one thing I disagree with (although maybe it's already been addressed--I only skimmed the OP ;; ) is penalties for abandoning eggs. I often breed pretties directly for the AP. Other times I breed either to get pretties to gift or to make lineages, and dump fails along the way. Having to rehome every common I get along the way would be borderline impossible! So while I agree incentives for breeding (or at least mass breeding--aka, rewarding many points for breeding daily versus a small capped amount for breeding daily) could backfire, I really do not want to see penalties for abandoning.

[Syphoneira]

Oh, I like this more than the shop! Same idea but uses what you're already normally doing as currency. Good way to reward long term or highly active players for staying around. Me likey. :3

 

The one thing I disagree with (although maybe it's already been addressed--I only skimmed the OP ;; ) is penalties for abandoning eggs. I often breed pretties directly for the AP. Other times I breed either to get pretties to gift or to make lineages, and dump fails along the way. Having to rehome every common I get along the way would be borderline impossible! So while I agree incentives for breeding (or at least mass breeding--aka, rewarding many points for breeding daily versus a small capped amount for breeding daily) could backfire, I really do not want to see penalties for abandoning.

 

 

 

Lol, I got confused on that one too.

 

At that point, apparently there really wasn't an actual penalty, although that term was used, you just didn't get a point for breeding/picking up any egg that then left your scroll before hatching.

 

Then this was rendered moot by the suggestion altering to not counting breeding/picking up eggs, (because some people mass breed and a lot of us pick up, check and drop probably hundreds of eggs on the AP, lol,) and now more recent suggestions include a maximum of 1 point a day (or 7 a week has also been suggested, for players not on/breeding/hunting daily) for breeding and picking up eggs, the emphasis being more on raising them, among (prospectively) other things.

 

But this is a brainstorming thread, so when Sin is caught up, I presume that such things will be considered/discussed - and the suggestions in the first post (which I understand are generally suggestions only, for discussion, not necessarily adopted yet?) may be updated.

 

And I do hope this will follow the idea of an accumulation of mana/experience (which would appear likely) for the magical summoning of eggs, rather than purchasing dragons with currency.

 

Sin has full quotes up in that first post, I would suspect, for appropriate attribution of ideas, rather than because everything in them has been adopted - and I hope will correct me wherever mistaken.