All Day New Releases + Changes with Ratio

[demonicvampiregirl]

There's 'challenge', then there's 'Herculean task', which is what catching anything after a release amounts to. I managed to catch two red coppers on release day, but I haven't managed to get a brown or green copper yet. I got my second green opal Lindwyrm on this release. And trying to catch anything in the biomes is like pulling teeth withOUT painkillers.

 

Trouble is, the releases and how they work are NOT the problem. The RATIOS are the problem and have been for ages. Until TJ elects to fix THAT problem, nothing we say, do or ask for will matter. Because every problem we have is due to the BROKEN RATIOS.

The ratios work. Problem is people just do not want to pick UP those eggs that are cave blockers.

 

Think back to the time of the Blacks and Old Pinks. They were unwanted and blocked the cave up.

 

Now take a look at them. Rare, hard to find, barely drop in the cave because beyond the ones retirement they became more desirable due to them having a alt form.

 

 

 

I am not saying give the cave blockers a alt form or whatever but maybe something of a hybrid or some BSA that will be desirable enough for them to not be cave blockers anymore. People don't want those dragons because they don't like them, done collecting, working on other projects, ect. How about finding a way to make them wanted as well? Shouldn't be that hard too.

 

Look at the magis was a cave blocker for a bit now rare to even find at all due to it's teleport ability. Green dragons same way, has a BSA that some people love to use. Even the Vines are hard to find now. So it's not broken ratios it's mostly people not wanting those cave blockers. Find a way to make them more desirable and it would help the problem or use one of the suggestions from this thread to help it out a bit.

 

We honestly set the value on these dragons ourselves so the ratios more than likely work in the way they are intended. Just we the userbase don't pick up enough of them to fix the problem.

Edited September 10, 2013 by demonicvampiregirl

[Nectaris]

 

I am not saying give the cave blockers a alt form or whatever but maybe something of a hybrid or some BSA that will be desirable enough for them to not be cave blockers anymore. People don't want those dragons because they don't like them, done collecting, working on other projects, ect. How about finding a way to make them wanted as well? Shouldn't be that hard too.

 

Have you been to the BSA section? There are very few useful, non-game breaking breed fitting BSA left for many of the blockers. Most of what is suggested is just fun stuff like splash and all that. Those kinds of BSAs can be fun, and may hold people's interest for a little while, but it won't hold them for long and then they will go back to being blockers.

 

Hybrids don't work that well either, else waters(and these have TWO potential hybrids), deepseas, stones and pebbles would not be blockers any more.

 

That leaves only alts. And some of these blockers no longer have an active artist, or they aren't interested in making alts. That isn't even factoring in whether or not TJ would allow that species to have an alt.

 

So I'm sorry, but I don't believe that the ratios work. Blacks and vines are the exception, not the rule when it comes to the ratios. If anything helps the ratios, it is the way the AP currently is. I don't know about you, but I have been raising a lot more blocker species grabbed from the AP, now that they aren't as much of a burden as before. That still doesn't help the cave move though, and still hasn't had a visible effect on the ratios though.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Nectaris

[Amazon_warrior]

Having at least the most common breeds count for more than a year would do a great deal to alleviate it, but IIRC the change was made at least in part because of how it caused three-week-long drops, which isn't what I'd call "working properly" (although I can't refind any information on it).

 

Given the size of the site, I don't think the current ratio style has the slightest chance of actually working anymore, no matter how long a given dragon counts towards the ratios.

That was the Midwinter Madness release, when we had nothing but Nocturnes, Canopies and Electrics for weeks because they were intended to be very common and were trying to catch up with other ultra-commons that had been out for years. I remember it all too well. But now instead of endless floods, we have floods that last less than 12 hours, and ratios that demand that we constantly raise X dragons of all species every year whether we want to or not.* I have no idea if a happy medium is possible, mind, but it's definitely something that needs to be aimed for.

 

 

 

 

 

*And frankly, since the change to the lineage view happened, my answer is a big "NOT!" when it comes to raising any more dragons than I need for my CB scroll goals.

[mpolo]

While I live in Europe, and thus have the first few hours of the release coincide with morning, I can certainly understand that people in other time zones want to be able to get the new releases without tons of misclicks.

 

Part of the problem seems to be fitting the eggs into the ratios, which TJ doesn't really want to compromise. What if we had a guaranteed "only new release" drop at least at the hour, if not the whole day, and only start applying the ratios after 24 hours.

 

It wouldn't solve the problem with coppers and green opalescents, of course. Those would still be near-impossible to get after the actual release. (If something is intended to be rare or uncommon, maybe a limit on eggs could be implemented for only the release day. Then the egg wouldn't be so badly over-represented in the ratios.)

[LibbyLishly]

(If something is intended to be rare or uncommon, maybe a limit on eggs could be implemented for only the release day. Then the egg wouldn't be so badly over-represented in the ratios.)

I agree with everything you said except this. The biggest reason for this suggestion to be implemented in the first place is because certain new releases - Blusangs leap immediately to mind, as I've only just started seeing them regularly in the caves, a year after their release, and more recently, Coppers - are the most panic-inducing eggs. If you don't catch them Day 1, you might never see them again - and with these, they were tricky to catch even on that first day, which caused more frustration and anger than any usual release. I think if you make a point of being there for the scheduled release, you should be able to find the new eggs easily, in a flood, even if they'll hardly ever be seen again afterwards.

[Syiren]

While I live in Europe, and thus have the first few hours of the release coincide with morning, I can certainly understand that people in other time zones want to be able to get the new releases without tons of misclicks.

 

Part of the problem seems to be fitting the eggs into the ratios, which TJ doesn't really want to compromise. What if we had a guaranteed "only new release" drop at least at the hour, if not the whole day, and only start applying the ratios after 24 hours.

 

It wouldn't solve the problem with coppers and green opalescents, of course. Those would still be near-impossible to get after the actual release. (If something is intended to be rare or uncommon, maybe a limit on eggs could be implemented for only the release day. Then the egg wouldn't be so badly over-represented in the ratios.)

What you just said gave me an idea. When you click on an egg in the cave it's stuck on your scroll for five hours before you can trade, gift or abandon it. What if during new releases only that time is cut to one hour or maybe even less? That way it's easier to get the cave blockers out of the way and not worry about missing five hourly drops that yield better egg catching chances.

[Guillotine]

That was the Midwinter Madness release, when we had nothing but Nocturnes, Canopies and Electrics for weeks because they were intended to be very common and were trying to catch up with other ultra-commons that had been out for years. I remember it all too well. But now instead of endless floods, we have floods that last less than 12 hours, and ratios that demand that we constantly raise X dragons of all species every year whether we want to or not.* I have no idea if a happy medium is possible, mind, but it's definitely something that needs to be aimed for.

 

 

 

 

 

*And frankly, since the change to the lineage view happened, my answer is a big "NOT!" when it comes to raising any more dragons than I need for my CB scroll goals.

The only happy medium I can think of is having ratios that are flat numbers; i.e. the dragons currently in the cave aren't considered in the egg generation calculations. Rares would still be rare but we wouldn't have unmoving walls of eggs nobody wants or needs all the time (at the very least, it would be less frequent), and we'd stand a snowball's chance in hell of seeing uncommons after they're released. The current ratio system is nice as a bit of gameplay/"story" integration, but the rampant overpopulation of certain breeds shows how well it works as a game mechanic.

[LibbyLishly]

What you just said gave me an idea. When you click on an egg in the cave it's stuck on your scroll for five hours before you can trade, gift or abandon it. What if during new releases only that time is cut to one hour or maybe even less? That way it's easier to get the cave blockers out of the way and not worry about missing five hourly drops that yield better egg catching chances.

I personally think we're in a place where such a change can and should be implemented, not only for new releases, but permanently. A new release might be a great place to beta-test it if we're still insisting on mixing in commons.

Edited September 10, 2013 by LibbyLishly

[Pokemonfan13]

What you just said gave me an idea. When you click on an egg in the cave it's stuck on your scroll for five hours before you can trade, gift or abandon it. What if during new releases only that time is cut to one hour or maybe even less? That way it's easier to get the cave blockers out of the way and not worry about missing five hourly drops that yield better egg catching chances.

A release is when the 5-hour wait is most important. Otherwise the really fast catchers would be able to fill up on release eggs, trade them for shiny hatchlings or IOUs, and repeat, meaning more competition for the slower catchers. The rest of the time is when I think the 5-hour wait is close to pointless.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[demonicvampiregirl]

Have you been to the BSA section?  There are very few useful, non-game breaking breed fitting BSA left for many of the blockers.  Most of what is suggested is just fun stuff like splash and all that.  Those kinds of BSAs can be fun, and may hold people's interest for a little while, but it won't hold them for long and then they will go back to being blockers.

 

Hybrids don't work that well either, else waters(and these have TWO potential hybrids), deepseas, stones and pebbles would not be blockers any more.

 

That leaves only alts.  And some of these blockers no longer have an active artist, or they aren't interested in making alts.  That isn't even factoring in whether or not TJ would allow that species to have an alt.

 

So I'm sorry, but I don't believe that the ratios work.  Blacks and vines are the exception, not the rule when it comes to the ratios.  If anything helps the ratios, it is the way the AP currently is.  I don't know about you, but I have been raising a lot more blocker species grabbed from the AP, now that they aren't as much of a burden as before.  That still doesn't help the cave move though, and still hasn't had a visible effect on the ratios though.

Nope because a lot of the time the ones I see that get posted in they usually get shut down so I just started avoiding that page anymore. (Sorry if that seems harsh but a lot do get shut down)

 

Those ones you listed are not nearly as bad as they use to be at all. Yes sometimes they do appear there for a bit but I rarely see them compared to some of the others.

 

They do probably work just we the user base always set the value of the dragon based on it's sprite. So if a sprite doesn't get the majorities attention it becomes a cave blocker. Find ways to make them wanted it should help a bit.

 

I have been collecting a lot of the cave blockers just like you. I will lock myself with 21 hatchies and then repeat it as the slots clear out and keep doing that. It's helping me get more dragons and helping the AP out. Maybe after like say a half hour the ones within the cave itself automatically get shoved into the AP so the time on them dies down and we can pick them up later.

 

A release is when the 5-hour wait is most important. Otherwise the really fast catchers would be able to fill up on release eggs, trade them for shiny hatchlings or IOUs, and repeat, meaning more competition for the slower catchers. The rest of the time is when I think the 5-hour wait is close to pointless.

 

I can agree here. The 5 hour wait outside of a release is rather pointless. There isn't a reason for that egg to be held for 5 hours since there isn't any competition to get new ones at that time.

Edited September 10, 2013 by demonicvampiregirl

[Guillotine]

I have been collecting a lot of the cave blockers just like you. I will lock myself with 21 hatchies and then repeat it as the slots clear out and keep doing that. It's helping me get more dragons and helping the AP out. Maybe after like say a half hour the ones within the cave itself automatically get shoved into the AP so the time on them dies down and we can pick them up later.

 

...

 

They do probably work just we the user base always set the value of the dragon based on it's sprite. So if a sprite doesn't get the majorities attention it becomes a cave blocker. Find ways to make them wanted it should help a bit.

1. Not everyone wants to do that and they should not be forced to do so at least once a year because of a terrible ratio system.

 

2. Half an hour is far too long to have an egg sitting there, and the cave doesn't track how long an egg has been sitting in the biomes. Any script would have to automatically dump eggs at set intervals; the best idea I've heard is kicking the leftmost egg every two minutes. (and this discussion is really for another thread)

 

3. What else are we supposed to base their value on? The entire game is about collecting sprites, and quite frankly blockers are so common that you get what you need extremely easily, meaning that you very quickly lose your desire to pick up eggs that you don't want and will be stuck with for five hours.

 

And quite frankly, Greens and Waters are still blockers (particularly the latter). That they are slightly less so is damning with faint praise, not evidence that hybrids are a long-term solution.

[demonicvampiregirl]

1. Not everyone wants to do that and they should not be forced to do so at least once a year because of a terrible ratio system.

 

2. Half an hour is far too long to have an egg sitting there, and the cave doesn't track how long an egg has been sitting in the biomes. Any script would have to automatically dump eggs at set intervals; the best idea I've heard is kicking the leftmost egg every two minutes. (and this discussion is really for another thread)

 

3. What else are we supposed to base their value on? The entire game is about collecting sprites, and quite frankly blockers are so common that you get what you need extremely easily, meaning that you very quickly lose your desire to pick up eggs that you don't want and will be stuck with for five hours.

 

And quite frankly, Greens and Waters are still blockers (particularly the latter). That they are slightly less so is damning with faint praise, not evidence that hybrids are a long-term solution.

I never said they had to now did I? Where did I once say that people had to pick up dragon eggs to help the ratio system out? Please point out where I said people have to pick up dragon eggs.

 

It's not far to long. Have you seen how many people sit in the cave all day? I barely see that many in some of the main cave biomes. Again why I suggested a half hour so people could get on to see them. Not everyone has all day to sit online for it.

 

I never said to set the value on anything else. Just pointing out saying that dragons that are set to be common or uncommon never truly end up that way. If you want the truth setting a value on them like that is kinda unneeded since the entire community is going to set it upon release.

 

Don't know but something does need done with them to make them more valuable so people pick them up.

[Guillotine]

That you felt the need to say "oh hey I fill my scroll with blockers" implies that you expect it of others, for one, and for another the fact that the current system demands such behavior of it's players to function is Bad Game Design. My work focuses heavily on game design, so I'm more than a little bit irritated by defense of said bad design choices.

 

No egg sits for a full half hour. This has been discussed a thousand times over in the thread made for such suggestions.

 

The ideal would be to make them less monstrously common in the first place. Reducing their numbers to better match demand for them would allow other commons to appear, and would make the caves move enough that uncommons would appear more than once in a blue moon. Pretty much all caveblockers are old enough that most older players have what they need, and the lack of demand from older players means new players fill up very quickly, leaving us with eggs no one wants.

[Syaoransbear]

Full support.

[demonicvampiregirl]

That you felt the need to say "oh hey I fill my scroll with blockers" implies that you expect it of others, for one, and for another the fact that the current system demands such behavior of it's players to function is Bad Game Design. My work focuses heavily on game design, so I'm more than a little bit irritated by defense of said bad design choices.

Don't ever put words into my mouth. Unless I say that that does NOT mean I am implying it what so ever. I did not once type out the words everyone has to pick up a batch of blockers.

 

Being irritated by a bad game design doesn't give you any form of right to say I said something that you can clearly see I did not say. Unless I actually type out those words that is not what I meant at all. So do not assume I'd say such a thing.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

The ratios work. Problem is people just do not want to pick UP those eggs that are cave blockers.

THAT is your statement that implies that everyone should pick up blockers over and over and over. No one should have to take an egg they do not want, EVER.

 

The ratios ARE broken and have been since the Black and Vine eggs were changed FIVE YEARS ago. When commons can be traded like rares because they are so hard to find, that's proof that something is broken. Only recently have blacks and vines started to become common again, but I don't think most folk want to wait ANOTHER five years for other hard to find commons and uncommons to be available again.

[demonicvampiregirl]

THAT is your statement that implies that everyone should pick up blockers over and over and over. No one should have to take an egg they do not want, EVER.

 

The ratios ARE broken and have been since the Black and Vine eggs were changed FIVE YEARS ago. When commons can be traded like rares because they are so hard to find, that's proof that something is broken. Only recently have blacks and vines started to become common again, but I don't think most folk want to wait ANOTHER five years for other hard to find commons and uncommons to be available again.

Excuse me but where does it state "People have to pick up the cave blockers"? Exactly where does it say that? You are implying that is what I am implying when it is NOT what I have said in the least. It was a SIMPLE STATEMENT that two of you have now said was something it wasn't.

 

Try not overreading my statements and assuming I am meaning people need to pick them up when I have not once said it myself.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, if "the ratios are working" when the cave is producing a thousand commons that nobody wants to take, I'd say the ratios aren't really working. ^^;

 

Or well, rather--yes, they're commons, so it only makes sense that there'd be a ton--but it's also true that the game often feels like you HAVE to pick them up. Whereas in other collectible games (Pokemon? sob that's my eternal example) yes, there's a lot of commons as is proper, but people don't need to collect oodles of them to keep the system moving.

 

Personally I think punting eggs that sit to the AP would solve a lot of problems; people are much more eager to pick up ER stuff, even commons, and heck, even if something sits too long in the AP and dies it's just a common so who cares if the biomes are moving, right? Although, I think it's been mentioned that the cave can't keep track of how long thing sits; if this is an unfixable problem, then maybe just a routine punting of the leftmost egg every five minutes? Might punt decent things during fast times (ex: new releases), but overall should do more good than harm.

 

Like heck, the problem isn't even really that the new release eggs are hard to find, it's that the cave simply takes five minutes to move one egg so it's boring as death to hunt and can take half an hour to catch something quite plentiful in the queue.

Edited September 11, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[give your heart a break]

I support this as it would help stopping the hoards of people catching all the eggs and then everyone could snatch them up so everyone's happy

[Obscure_Trash]

Here's what I've gathered from this thread:

 

-The ratios mean that for the cave to move, users have to make sacrifices, as it were, and pick up blockers

 

-People shouldn't have to be forced to pick up eggs

 

-Since people aren't forced to pick up eggs, blockers aren't moving

 

-Something about the ratios needs changed to fix this process

 

And I think people may kind of be walking around each other in circles because I think we can agree the cave works on this basis, but it doesn't work because eggs aren't moving, but this is being attacked from two angles "I want this changed so things move" and "With the way things are people do have to pick things up" which don't inherently disagree with each other.

 

Which, tbh, I don't think is a discussion for this thread. I think it belongs in this thread about general ratios, not new release drops. ^^

[skauble]

Here's what I've gathered from this thread:

 

-The ratios mean that for the cave to move, users have to make sacrifices, as it were, and pick up blockers

 

-People shouldn't have to be forced to pick up eggs

 

-Since people aren't forced to pick up eggs, blockers aren't moving

 

-Something about the ratios needs changed to fix this process

 

And I think people may kind of be walking around each other in circles because I think we can agree the cave works on this basis, but it doesn't work because eggs aren't moving, but this is being attacked from two angles "I want this changed so things move" and "With the way things are people do have to pick things up" which don't inherently disagree with each other.

 

Which, tbh, I don't think is a discussion for this thread. I think it belongs in this thread about general ratios, not new release drops. ^^

I agree that a lot of the extensive, in depth ratio talk should probably go to where it can be more beneficial in creating a solution and can be easily found again, at a later date, because it's all together in the same thread.

 

However, I do think that the general concept is very germane to this topic because this suggestion is about fixing something that we can't be sure is broken. And the reason we can't tell if it's broken is because of the ratio issue which, as you pointed out, most people see as an issue even though we all may be laying the blame at different doorsteps.

 

And because the ratio problem has been going on for so long, and because this release format is so new, there's no way of making any definitive statements about how this format would work in a well functioning cave.

 

So I find the ratio aspect is rather essential to this discussion because, for me, the original suggestion is about changing something that may actually work, to accommodate something that almost no one thinks does.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

So I find the ratio aspect is rather essential to this discussion because, for me, the original suggestion is about changing something that may actually work, to accommodate something that almost no one thinks does.

Which is exactly my point. Until TJ fixes the ratio issue, nothing we do, say or ask for will make any difference. The new release 'problem' might not even be a problem if the ratios worked properly.

[Syiren]

A release is when the 5-hour wait is most important. Otherwise the really fast catchers would be able to fill up on release eggs, trade them for shiny hatchlings or IOUs, and repeat, meaning more competition for the slower catchers. The rest of the time is when I think the 5-hour wait is close to pointless.

Hmm, you've definitely got a good point there. I never thought of it that way. But, like you were saying, for normal times even if the time was shortened from five hours to one it would help out a lot and help move the (I don't like using this term) cave blockers along.

 

 

[whitebaron]

The ratios work. Problem is people just do not want to pick UP those eggs that are cave blockers.

[...]

We honestly set the value on these dragons ourselves so the ratios more than likely work in the way they are intended. Just we the userbase don't pick up enough of them.

 

One idea of mine would be to reduce all-biome blockers to less biomes, or introduce new biomes. I think no biome should be forced to deal with more than 20 different egg-types, and only rares should drop in all biomes.

First off: If it were just players, setting the value, coppers might be rare, blusangs might be rare - but the cave forced both of them into near extinction. Blusangs were 3 months hard to find, then 6 months almost impossible, and only one year aftrr the release they'll see a short relief now, then go on hiatus again.

 

Also, please don't tell me to pick up cave blockers to fix the broken system - its just a temporary solution that works less and less over the years, as more and more commons are released.

[platedlizard]

I like the system as it is and don't mind if it doesn't change, neener neener That said:

 

I don't mind a system like the Seasonal Changes, or kicking eggs to the AP after a certain amount of time (say, ten minutes. Two minutes is too frequent and a half hour is not frequent enough imo) or possibly increasing the a rarity of older breeds a tad so the newer ones get a chance to be cycled more.

 

I don't like the idea of an all day Flood though, even if they don't count for ratios on the first day. Their children will certainly count, and what will happen is that so many will be bred that cbs will become rare. That's essentially what happened to blacks, so many were being bred that the cave almost completely stopped producing cb blacks.It made them impossible to catch and driving up the value of a supposedly 'common' dragon into rarity levels. This probably won't be a huge problem for common dragons, but it absolutely will for uncommons or rares, and then we will back to where we started concerning the difficulty of getting rares and uncommons. Sure a lot of people will be able to catch them on the first day, but after that the ratios will be out of whack when the original flood starts breeding.

 

Retiring breeds is out of the question, but alternating rarity on different breeds might also be a good solution. So, say, one week mints are common embers uncommon, then next they are uncommon and embers are now common. There could even be days when say all the rares become briefly uncommon (or maybe even common) before becoming rare again. I'm just throwing out ideas, but I think fluctuating the rarity of different breeds might be better over all.

 

e. fluctuating the rarity would also have the advantage of intermittently rewarding players for coming back to the cave and hunting. Intermittent rewards are actually more powerful than consistent rewards when it comes to reinforcing a behavior (it's called the 'jackpot', read Don't Shoot the Dog! for more information.) This is good from a business standpoint because it'll keep players coming back to see what's changed that day.

Edited September 11, 2013 by platedlizard