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MysticTiger

All Day New Releases + Changes with Ratio

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FROM THE OP:

 

 

'My Suggestion Part 1: Have the new Releases be All Day, Every Minute, just like the Holiday Drops, from 12am-11:59pm the day of the release.*

 

This would cut down on a dramatic amount of drama that happens between those who "hoard" and those who have none. It would cut down on the amount of people who get frustrated and give up entirely and hope to eventually find the end somewhere down the road. It would also give a chance for everyone to get one, as long as they're on that day. It would remove the amount of stress on the server at certain points (like at midnight) because people would pick them up throughout the day and quickly instead of in mass groups who hang on the website for a while.

 

*EDIT:

The idea of simply increasing the number of eggs dropping, instead of a constant drop, has also been suggested. This would increase the number of eggs released on the first day by an undetermined amount while still keeping out the "mixing" of the older eggs that happens now.

 

My Suggestion Part 2: Have the first day release dragons NOT count towards the overall Ratio.

 

This would assure that the problem that Coppers had, where they were available the first release date but then just disappeared entirely after that despite supposedly being "Uncommon", never happens again. It would also allow the people who were not here on the release date to have a chance to catch them without having all the drama of the trading forms, attempting to get on gifting lists or begging. (Part 1 would also lead to less of a wait on gifting lists) ...'

 

 

 

First, I'd like to say that I entirely agree with these first two propositions, (didn't copy the rest) and that a scheduled Release would NOT create the current problems IF the first two suggestions were implemented, since everyone showing up could have a chance to fill up with new eggs, or at least get some, in short order, before work, without getting up early or spending all night and day quite likely catching nothing because of there being far too few eggs for the numbers of people showing up.

 

Also, while some people only want a limited number of eggs for specific scroll goals, many people want multiple pairs of new eggs and will take several loads of them consecutively, given the option, (if they like/love the spite) and with this suggestion, once word got out, many people might well return to DC and more new people, not discouraged by being unable to catch any New Releases on their own, might be more likely to stay on.

 

Why should people who come here to collect dragons not be able to when they've gone to the trouble of showing up for New Releases to do so?

 

Many of us did not join here for a 'challenge', but were lured in by the prospect of 'saving baby dragons' and a non-competitive collecting game that did not require awesome computer equipment, a fast connection and amazing catching skills that the vast majority of DC members, both active and inactive, simply don't possess.

 

What someone with a speedy system may regard as being 'too easy' may already be virtually impossible for someone on an old computer with a slower connection, and there are FAR more of the latter than the former on DC.

 

While some people may enjoy this sort of 'challenge', if somebody did a poll and asked whether

 

people preferred to miss sleep to spend all of their spare time frantically clicking without catching any New Releases and possibly being unable to catch these dragons for weeks, months or ever

 

or to have a good day-long Flood and fill up on them on the day, even if they still couldn't catch any/many thereafter,

 

or if they'd appreciate being able to fill up on New Releases possibly several times, whether or not being able to catch any more thereafter, depending on the popularity of the sprite

 

(and while some have turned the 'commercial' tide toward trade value based on rarity determining desirability of individual sprites for them and those trying to trade for 'expensive' dragons, many players appreciate beautiful sprites for themselves and their appearance in lineages, and would load up on beautiful new sprites regardless of assigned trade value)

 

the response would probably be similar to that seen on threads where postings made by those unintimidated by being labelled 'whiny' show that,

 

when Releases are made 'challenging' and most people can catch little or nothing, most people are stressed, unhappy and wondering why the heck they bother and, after repeated no-fun Release fails, maybe not bothering anymore,

 

while on easy Releases, where most people can fill up relatively quickly, they can (if not rushing off to work or bed) settle down on the thread to comment on how much they're enjoying this Release and their scroll-fulls of lovely new eggs, typically hoping that they'll be able to get more later, (if they love the adults as well,) with relative ease, and the thread is filled with happy comments and players looking forward to more such Releases rather than dreading the 'challenging' ones.

 

If there are not enough eggs during/after Releases, or too many eggs after such Releases, why not fix problems when they arise, rather than leaving a status quo until a significant number of the players start thinking about a lengthy hiatus/quitting entirely with longing?

 

We've had one multi-Release in the past with virtually nothing but the new dragons available for weeks afterward, which was mentioned as a reason not to have the first day Flood suggested not count in the ratios, but there should have been some means of fixing that without creating a system of chronic shortage of new eggs following Release thereafter

 

The purpose here is for people to collect/breed/gift/trade dragons those people want - many players can't do any of this, because, apart from the most commonly available, they typically can't catch the more in-demand ones they need/want in the first place, and the Release Floods may form their only chance at the more desirable dragons.

 

 

Except for the fact that 7 egg slots are maximum and that many players have fewer, MysticTiger nailed it:

 

 

'I'm going to disagree with the idea that drops need to be "Challenging", wholeheartedly. Dragon Cave is more of a laid back simplistic breeding game compared to other games, with the lack of needing to "feed" your dragons and such other features that require the user to be on the site almost every day. Making the Cave Drops "Challenging" isolates the majority of the players by adding a level of difficulty that shouldn't be in a simplistic breeding game and discourages users from playing the way they want to play, either by collecting and/or breeding the new dragons.

 

In short, Cave Drops shouldn't be this impossible. I was on the day of the Two-headed Lindwurm release and was unable to catch any. I haven't seen any in the cave since then. Same problem I had with Blusang, Tsunami and Golden Wyvern.

 

QUOTE (Nectaris @ Sep 8 2013, 04:33 PM)

I still don't think that means it needs to be dropped every minute. I honestly think that would create TOO MUCH of a glut of the new eggs where they will swiftly become undesirable. At least if they are a common release. An uncommon like the coppers and blusangs it might not do harm, but a common it could actually hurt things. I think simply keeping old eggs out of the drop would create a larger supply than you think.

 

 

But this is relying on the fact that the release is common.

And regardless if they were or not, there would still be people who weren't on that day to catch them, or gifted them away to someone else on the release date. They wouldn't be "undesirable". Not for a long while. It's not like everyone suddenly doesn't want the new dragon after the day it's been released. There's still a demand for new Cave Borns of the newest breed. The "glut" you're talking about would be strictly based on the fact that everyone showed up on the release date and no one wanted the dragon AFTER the release date. It doesn't happen.

 

/////////////////

 

The problem with only working without the first idea is it pretty much makes the second null and void.

 

You need a full day of drops. Then the second day will slowly balance out the ratio, where in the new eggs get mixed in with the older until they settle in.

 

The problem would still persist if we continued the way they're being release now, only sans the old egg mix in. There's still a VERY large disproportion of people with 8 egg slots open compared to how many eggs are released. And now that people KNOW when the eggs will come out, they will all be there at midnight EST. As someone pointed out, this isn't fair to different time zones. And this isn't fair to people who have school or work or an event the next day and can't stay up.

 

The first was to fix the problem between how many people with open scrolls there is versus the amount of new eggs to go around there is. Without implementing one, filling up all the scroll owners who log on that day to get the new eggs, two is pointless because the egg will still be in such a demand that the ratios changes will mean nothing. You'll still have people who just can't get the egg. You'll still have drama.'

 

 

 

But around here, 'drama' is typically used to describe the expression of people's unhappiness with a game that's supposed to be fun, in a collecting game where they can't catch even during Releases in order to collect dragons that enable breeding which opens up another aspect of the game, as does gifting or trading, or anything beyond the simple hunting of the necessary eggs.

 

There are other games that offer challenges for high-speed players who crave competition involving a requirement that others lose so that some can win.

 

But there is no other game that I've encountered with the potential of DC to supply the enormous market consisting of people who come here because the basic DC collecting/breeding game doesn't require the above-mentioned high-speed competitive desire and ability - but while much of the game moves with almost agonizing slowness, with basic game essentials, such as dragon raising, requiring nearly a week, even with various BSAs such as Incubate, with its 2-week cool-down, and breeding, for example, requiring a full week between attempts, there are then attempts to argue, essentially, that only the fastest/luckiest people should be able to catch new Releases (as with desirable eggs generally) at any point in time, including during Release Floods.

 

Why not at least allow those who can make it on the day of Release to catch these eggs on that day, with a decent chance of catching at least some more of them a few days later, when they again have room?

 

The fastest people already have the opportunity of apparently routinely catching desirable dragons some are unable to snag any of, even over efforts spanning years, because unable to afford the more expensive equipment/high-speed connections not otherwise necessary on DC - and for many of us, if we can't catch during Floods, we may never be able to get the more uncommon/rare dragons at all, and therefore also be shut out of creating/continuing many beautiful lineages/lines, losing far more than may be apparent at first glance.

 

There's no reason that DC Releases should be a time where many, often missing sleep/rescheduling work to attend, should have to spend their time in a frustrating and decidedly un-fun situation where it's required that the results at the end of day ultimately consist of a large number of discouraged and exhausted losers to make the winners feel better about having had a challenge at their level, which high-level challenge is added to the routine challenges endured daily by virtually everyone else on their slower systems, making it virtually impossible for them to catch in the time they have available, even if their whole night and day has has been spent in futile pursuit.

 

Edit: missed a word, lol.

Edited by Syphoneira

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I very much support the idea of the OP, except for the every-minute part. Just keeping the normal hourly + 5-min drops to pure mass-drops on the first day PLUS ignoring these dragons for the ratio should help very much!

 

Ideally, I'd even like a 48 hour mass drop, so that people who can't get online on weekends get a good hunting chance, too. But not-counting the first-day dragons towards the ratios should mean that the numbers on Monday should be like the ones we now get on Sunday, which should work.

 

So, overall, I very much support this!

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Well, making new releases the day they are release, NOT count towards the ratio's, is, in my oppinion, a bad idea. Since, the ratio's use the overall number of that species, on the entire site.

 

So after the release day, some of them, might just never appear again, if they are uncommon or rare. Because the ratio sais that there are already way to many 'out there'.

 

So since not everybody can get them on release day, due to real life, there would be way too many people who just never get them.

And you can't make them dissappear in the ratio's, the eggs that are released on the first day. Cause they actually ARE here.

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I'm pretty sure it's possible to use a separate counter for those first-day dragons, and then artificially decrease the number-of-dragons-of-this-breed the site finds by that counter. You'd need one such counter for every newly released breed, but that should be feasible. In the end, it's just a number that the "count all dragons of this breed on DC" algorithm can substract before deciding what new egg to produce.

 

I wouldn't be averse to fading them back into the ratios later (say, starting 1 month after the release, the "first-day"-counter is reduced gradually until the number of dragons the site-algorithm finds includes the first-day dragons. So they would become harder to catch after a month, but should (if the ratios work) slowly come back after that. But a month should be more than enough for everyone to get their fair share.

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I'm pretty sure it's possible to use a separate counter for those first-day dragons, and then artificially decrease the number-of-dragons-of-this-breed the site finds by that counter. You'd need one such counter for every newly released breed, but that should be feasible. In the end, it's just a number that the "count all dragons of this breed on DC" algorithm can substract before deciding what new egg to produce.

 

I wouldn't be averse to fading them back into the ratios later (say, starting 1 month after the release, the "first-day"-counter is reduced gradually until the number of dragons the site-algorithm finds includes the first-day dragons. So they would become harder to catch after a month, but should (if the ratios work) slowly come back after that. But a month should be more than enough for everyone to get their fair share.

While I can see your suggestion working in theory, I suspect in practise all it would do would be slightly delay the almost total disappearance of new breeds. Because, as you said yourself, the whole idea is dependant on the ratios working; and as things stand the ratios simply don't work.

 

Older blockers are starting to mingle in early because the Cave is already beginning to think there are too many of that breed of dragon. And what comes back in are the breeds the Cave doesn't think there are enough of. The only way to solve that particular problem would be to set every new release to the same rarity as, say, Nocturnes - and even that would be only a temporary fix. Leave them at 'Nocturne' rarity, and they'll have turned into blockers before the month is out. Readjust the rarity to match, say, Tri-horns, and they'll disappear entirely because the Cave suddenly thinks there are far too many of them.

 

Any mechanism to make sure eggs drop in a flood for the whole of release day is, at the moment, merely attempting to patch the deeper problem. While a patch would, I admit, be nice, I'd rather see the deeper problem addressed and fixed.

 

Incidently, if the information helps, I am on a slow connection myself, and the *only* way I get CB's of anything even faintly 'uncommon' is to either trade for them or hope to grab them by 'hammer clicking' on release day (even saying that, I gifted one of the new releases I did catch this time around). If I miss out on the initial release, I'll be lucky to grab one myself for *months* after that. I have never caught a CB silver, or a CB gold. I have all of 4 CB Trios, and I'm pretty sure I traded for one of those. I'm not at all complaining about that, and I'm certainly not trying to make it easier on myself grabbing them. I've been quite happy collecting the commons I like, and occasionally trading when I *do* breed something nice.

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...Someone mentioned on the news thread that TJ doesn't care about making us happy with longer drops, but cares more about how many times we refresh the page so that he can collect revenue from the ads and that was the reason the mass drop will never be fixed.

but from a purely 'business' point of view this is a really stupid way to think - to not take into consideration the wishes and suggestions of those you rely on for 'buying your service/product/whatever' is just arrogant. My way or no way = bad business.

 

ETA: I support the at least 24-hour drop of new eggs, just not every freakin' minute. Our world has a lot more than one or two time zones.

Edited by oddsoxdi

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I agree with those who say that the new release eggs being hard to get when they are released is just a symptom of the main problem. And yes, I was here for the canopy/nocturne/electric release. It was epically nasty! Something like three *weeks* of only the same 3 eggs. *shudder* Avoiding a similar issue would be a good idea, but I think if you fix the cave-movement problem, you'll fix this one, too.

 

And a NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO to retiring breeds! What happened with the Frills has angered soooo much of the userbase (including me!) that I never want to see it happen again. And all due to the Frill lovers not stepping up and defending them, so their artist knew before it was too late that they were so well loved. >.<

 

 

 

 

The main problem is that the Biomes do not move, so the only way to get a new release is to get them on their release day. Get the Biomes to move, and you'll be able to get the new release eggs (unless they pull a Copper on us, which I swear are glitched! I don't care what TJ says, those censorkip.gif***s do not drop with anything like regularity in the cave).

 

People have used the example of the Two Headed Lindwyrm as an example of why they need the all day releases. Well, I'm going to use them to prove that the problem is in the cave itself, and not in the releases.

 

Ever since their release, I've been going to the Forest, and grabbing eggs until I was full in an attempt to get them. This means, I'd end up with a scroll full of blockers and maybe sometimes one or two desirable eggs. I've done this about a dozen times, and I've gotten 3 of the Green two-headeds, and a bunch of Summers. And a scroll full of the same half dozen blockers each time, which were sent to the AP. So the Lindwyrms are dropping! If you can get the blockers moving to get to them.

 

I did the exact same thing with the Blusangs, and I got my full complement of 16 CBs for them within 3 months of their release. Its time consuming, but for biomes that don't move, the only way to go. Same thing with several other releases, this is how I get the rest of the 16 I need: moving the blockers myself.

 

There are two suggestions already out there that would help this problem immensely, that are both simple: Rotate eggs that sit to the AP, and reduce the Cave-caught cooldown.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Any mechanism to make sure eggs drop in a flood for the whole of release day is, at the moment, merely attempting to patch the deeper problem. While a patch would, I admit, be nice, I'd rather see the deeper problem addressed and fixed.

This^^ however trying to come up with suggestion to fix this is difficult. Even more so as its partly speculation as we do not know formula's currently or exactly how it is coded.

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I like your 2nd idea much better than your 1st idea. I think the ratio needs to be adjusted somehow and your 2nd idea addresses this issue, even more simply than the idea I have been toying around with suggesting.

 

I do not fully understand or even know the actual mechanics on exactly how TJ has this coded. But it is obvious to me that the ratio is the main concern in regards to most peoples frustration. This is the issue that needs to be addressed in one way or another. Your 2nd idea is prolly the simplest and easiest way.

 

The one I have been thinking about is doubling the ratio (w/e it currently is) for the first week, however since I do not know exactly how TJ has it coded and formulas used, I am not certain how that would impact after week time and if that would cause even more problems later.

-----------------------------------

To explain why, I will use some examples one why I think ratio is the main concern, and more importantly will continue to get worse as more new dragons are introduced.

 

When I started playing over a year ago (back in April 2012), there were roughly about 75 different dragons that could be found in the Caves (not including holidays, etc). Since I have started DC, there have been what like 25 more that can be found in the Caves in just over a years time. Also back then, a new release would last a day or two before other dragons would start to be mixed in. This last release it was more like 5 - 6 hrs.

 

Several factors have contributed to the frustration of trying to get new release dragons. All of which compound and add to the level of frustration.

 

1. New releases represent significant portion less of total dragons.

2. Less time for new releases before other dragons start to show up.

3. New releases have set date and time as opposed to random events prior.

4. Which means more people are on during that time trying to get them. As opposed to prior when it was more spread out over day to two days.

5. People feel like they MUST be on during initial time when released, as they might not have chance to possibly get a dragon, especially if it turns out to be rare (ex. Coppers) and do not have luxury like it was prior of having day or two for new releases to be caught.

 

The last fifth one causes many issues and frustrations. With a known release time by itself might have been ok in the past, but now with shorter times than people are even more apt to try to be available knowing they do not have day or two, but more like hours to possibly have a chance to get some. This means even more are showing up. *This part of my theory might be incorrect* which means even more eggs are going out and the ratio is achieved much sooner, possibly reducing the time before other dragons start getting mixed in even quicker.

 

So a year ago, if 3 new dragons were released out of total of 75 dragons, that was 4% of the total. Now if 3 new dragons are released out of total of 100 dragons, that is 3%. SO 1% difference in a years time does not sound like much, but it is significant when you take into consideration all the thousands of dragons that represents + that prior to that this might have changed in tenths of a percent (4.2% down to 4%) for every year.

 

So it seems to me that the real issue is the ratio needs to be changed to go in-line with the more dragons that are being released during the same time period.

Edited by Hawkster

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But see, this reflects the persistent idea that everyone should end up with some of the new eggs on the first day.  Why?

 

I don't say that to be mean to anyone or want people not to have fun, I'm just saying that I think there's a DC mindset about this that comes from two places:

 

1.  The fear that those eggs won't be catchable later.

 

I really do think that's more indicative of a cave wide problem, as opposed to a release problem, and should be addressed as such by whatever fix TJ might make.

 

1) The fear that certain eggs won't be catchable later is, unfortunately, a very valid one. And I'm not just talking about coppers or blusangs, either. I was there for the trio release, and I've been struggling ever since to get the 2 CB breeding pairs of each. I think they were released in November 2009...

 

I know that there are people who say that slower players will never ever be able to get them if they don't get them the first day.  But I'm not sure how anyone can accurately predict that.

Well, guess what? After almost 4 years, I just caught my first CB magma. (My other CB was traded for.) I just got my 5th or 6th CB thunder this week, too. Hopefully, this will be my 2nd female. I haven't been able to catch a single CB copper since release day. Luckily, I somehow knew that they would be the rare of the birthday release, and managed to get at least one CB breeding pair of every color when they first came out. So, yes, I heavily depend on being able to grab everything on release day - or it might take years for me to get my fill.

Edited by olympe

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I completely support this idea.

 

The only change I'd suggest would to keep the current every-five-minute rate of drops, rather than every minute. I don't think it would change things all that much, and at least it wouldn't feel like a holiday all over again. I'm okay with rares and certain uncommons mixing in with the drop, since sometimes it can be FAR more valuable than the new release (I'd be jumping for joy if I'd caught a copper instead of that last desert egg). But eggs whose ratio is already high enough to make them common? No.

 

I think the biggest deal here is that you've addressed the ratio issue. The first day shouldn't count toward the ratios. I don't know what all has gone into the ratios, as I don't think there's ever been official word on how those work. But clearly, something is severely askew and needs to be addressed. It's very possible the first day rations ARE being addressed, based on the ease with which many people were able to catch this time around. But I think it can continue to improve.

 

I do agree with skauble that a large part of our current problem arises from a certain mindset all over DC: that, first, based on past experience (COPPERS and BLUSANGS, among many others), we fear that the first day is our only shot at catching a CB of that breed for at least the next year, if not longer. It is a cavewide problem, not just a release problem, and should somehow be addressed - hence multiple threads of suggestions about. Second, the "this is the way we've always done it" attitude, something I run into constantly at the office. dry.gif However, I think both of these things contribute to taking the 24-hour flood of a new release as a valid solution, at least in part, rather than being a reason not to support it.

 

To those who want a 'challenge': Simple. Don't catch in the first 24 hours. Try to catch the new eggs later, when they're buried under every other breed in the biome. Or, alternatively, don't catch for yourself, but rather try to trade for the eggs if you want the first-day date stamp. It's much easier to create a challenge for yourself than expect everyone else to operate under the same standards of difficulty that you've set as your ideal.

 

(I'd also quite like to copy and paste Syphoneira's post and put it here just to say "Totally agree", but I will abstain from that. xd.png )

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As I posted in the other thread on limiting New Releases,

 

The problem right now as I see it with the short drops is that it only benefits the fastest clickers and high end traders, GREATLY frustrating and angering the slower masses.  With the floods, everyone has a chance to get at least one at some point in the first day.  With the short drops, a traders will load up, go offer them for gold or a Shimmer, whatever the frustrated will offer, then come back and pick up more, repeat cycle.  Nobody can catch in that environment except the VERY fastest clickers

 

I'm one of those that can only catch first days when they are flooding.  Once other dragons mix in, I end up with a bunch of misclicks to dump later.  I am still looking for any CB Green Coppers, green Opal male, and finally caught my first CB Blusang a week ago.

 

Don't limit the catch, I'm all for the floods!

 

What about limiting trading of new releases in the first week? They could be placed in a one way Teleport for gifting, but could not be placed in a two way Teleport until they've been out for a week. This would give many slower players a chance to catch their own.

 

Just a thought.

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To those who want a 'challenge': Simple. Don't catch in the first 24 hours. Try to catch the new eggs later, when they're buried under every other breed in the biome. Or, alternatively, don't catch for yourself, but rather try to trade for the eggs if you want the first-day date stamp. It's much easier to create a challenge for yourself than expect everyone else to operate under the same standards of difficulty that you've set as your ideal.

 

You know, I am tired of everyone latching on to that one thing I said. I had also said I was ok with the general principle, I just stated that I didn't like the one minute drop, which has already been talked to death.

 

Besides, what I meant by challenge was the cave moving fast like it used to when I first joined. When I joined, the way the cave moves during releases was how it was day to day, you were lucky to get ANY egg from the cave. THAT is what I miss when I refer to a challenge.

Edited by Nectaris

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You know, I am tired of everyone latching on to that one thing I said.  I had also said I was ok with the general principle, I just stated that I didn't like the one minute drop, which has already been talked to death.

 

Besides, what I meant by challenge was the cave moving fast like it used to when I first joined.  When I joined, the way the cave moves during releases was how it was day to day, you were lucky to get ANY egg from the cave.  THAT is what I miss when I refer to a challenge.

I really wasn't picking on you individually. If I was, I promise I'd use your name or a quote. smile.gif I was addressing an attitude that I saw in the New Release thread by three or four other users and in other suggestion threads. It was being mentioned here by others, so I addressed it as well. My response really honestly had nothing to do with what you said and I'm so sorry if it came across that way.

Edited by LibbyLishly

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I really wasn't picking on you individually. If I was, I promise I'd use your name or a quote. smile.gif I was addressing an attitude that I saw in the New Release thread by three or four other users and in other suggestion threads. It was being mentioned here by others, so I addressed it as well. My response really honestly had nothing to do with what you said and I'm so sorry if it came across that way.

Ok, I didn't realize others had said it elsewhere. All I knew was that I was the only one in this thread that had mentioned it earlier and everyone else started talking about those wanting a challenge.

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There's 'challenge', then there's 'Herculean task', which is what catching anything after a release amounts to. I managed to catch two red coppers on release day, but I haven't managed to get a brown or green copper yet. I got my second green opal Lindwyrm on this release. And trying to catch anything in the biomes is like pulling teeth withOUT painkillers.

 

Trouble is, the releases and how they work are NOT the problem. The RATIOS are the problem and have been for ages. Until TJ elects to fix THAT problem, nothing we say, do or ask for will matter. Because every problem we have is due to the BROKEN RATIOS.

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Ok, I didn't realize others had said it elsewhere.  All I knew was that I was the only one in this thread that had mentioned it earlier and everyone else started talking about those wanting a challenge.

 

 

Nectaris, please don't feel that anyone's referring to you.

 

I've seen possibly up to a half dozen or so people saying that they like a challenge so this is, as has been pointed out by LibbyLishly, a general reference to a general attitude which adversely affects many people.

 

And it's often preferable not to single people out when the issue is a general one which applies to more than one person; also, naming specific people, (even if from different threads,) may make those people feel as though they're being attacked (when that's not the intention,) and become defensive, rather than considering the alternate viewpoint being presented.

 

And therefore we (or at least I) often don't specify a person or persons, even if sometimes quoting a post as an example, because it's the attitude we wish to address by presenting our viewpoint so that the issue may be better understood.

 

And the issue being tackled pertains to the fact that 'one man's challenge' may be 'many people's ordeal', lol, since people with slower systems may already chronically face major challenges in situations the people with faster systems may find easy.

 

The chappie in the racing car may, for example, not be able to see why the person waiting for the bus can't cross the city as quickly as he can, when setting standards of timing in travel he expects others to meet or exceed, but it's helpful to try to understand the situations others are in when advocating maintaining, or even increasing, difficulty for those already bogged down.

 

So we're trying to convey the facts that seem to be lost in the dust of various chariot wheels, so to speak.

 

We just want the game to be fun for everyone, regardless of whether they can afford a fast system, rather than, too-often, a frustrating exercise in fail for possibly most players in their recreational time.

 

This is, after all, a family site, for almost all ages between children and grandparents, for people around the world, and it doesn't even seem practical to try to run it for a comparative few whose systems are so good that they feel they need a challenge that pretty much knocks a large percentage of players from the game.

 

 

Edit: missed several words, lol.

Edited by Syphoneira

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This is, after all, a family site, for almost all ages between children and grandparents, for people around the world, and it doesn't even seem practical to try to run it for a comparative few whose systems are so good that they feel they need a challenge that pretty much knocks a large percentage of players from the game.

I think part of where we may differ is that, IME, most players here actually seem to have a fairly average set up - average computer, average connection. When we do those speed test threads and the ping checks, most players appear to fall into a into a range where they can actually affect their own chances with the small time saved by turning on and off images, changing browsers, etc. How many times do we see people say, "I switched to X browser and caught some eggs right away"? And the thing is that people say that about all the browsers (someone even said it once about IE), so this doesn't seem to be a situation where there's something like10% ultra superfast gaming systems and then mostly slow systems. It seems more like there's an ultrahigh performance crowd, the majority of players in the mid-range, and then then a section of players at the low end.

 

And when I look at cave hunting it seems, largely, geared toward that mid-range of players. Which, of course means that the ultra-fast will always have the advantage (again, why I think that incentivizing them to never ever stop rare hunting by creating such a miniscule pool of CB Prize dragons has so disrupted things). That gap can sometimes be closed a bit by various system choices and the amount of time a person spends hunting, but it's probably not ever going to be eliminated completely.

 

Reading the release threads, one can see the initial panic and rage that there's not enough eggs and no one will ever be able to catch them begins to fade over time as many of those who were upset and genuinely worried manage to get eggs and then begin to post about other things concerning the release. In most of the releases, it turns out that most people manage to grab eggs. And while things like Coppers and Green Lindwurms stand out for their difficulty, we tend to lose sight of the fact that almost all of the new releases we've had under this new format haven't been prohibitively difficult for most players to get during the release period.

 

With the Coppers and Green Lindwurms, it looks as if the cave may be adopting a bit more of a "Start as you mean to go on" policy of making things that will be uncommon/rare less easy to catch than their common release counterparts. I absolutely get how that can be frustrating. But the thing is that I knew quite a few of the players who were previously complaining about getting all they need of a breed during the initial release period and then feeling somewhat at lose ends, and they weren't superfast players who could pull a string of metals out of the cave. That means that the game was beginning to stop engaging the average player. And while it's been said that they should just find stuff to entertain themselves, the difference between the success and failure of a game like this often lies in being able to see when the main body of players is likely to begin wandering off. And the fact is that it's easier to adjust the game than it is to convince thousands of players that they should be more pro-active self-starters (although I do think this would be a time to seriously consider introducing new official areas of play).

 

In making that adjustment, I don't think that it's unreasonable to gear it towards that mid-range player. You can't set the standard for the ultra-fast, because to make the game more compelling for them would make it nearly impossible for everyone else. But, at the same time, if you set the bar to the slowest connections then the game does lose the challenge for the majority of players. And this game is supposed to have an element of challenge in the hunting aspect of it. That has always been true. While I definitely admire the ingenuity of people who have crafted their gameplay in a way that minimizes it, the hunt has never been incidental to this game. It's never been a small side part to collecting. With the exception of the raffle dragons, every dragon in this game, no matter how far back one goes to find it, originated from that race. And that race was always meant to be somewhat challenging. I remember the arguments as far back as the Summer Seasonal release. The Vampire "hording" battles. The Leetle Trees - probably a prime example of the fact that speed and time have always been an intentional aspect of this game.

 

That part of the game was somewhat blunted in the early days, not because it wasn't as strongly there, but because:

 

A. The lack of breeds meant that it was easier to eventually get some of each kind.

 

B. The lack of lineage view, and then the newness of lineage play meant that CBs were not elevated so far above breds. So if someone had a Gold, even if it was 9th gen and messy, it was a Gold and it's worth wasn't automatically invalidated.

 

C. People didn't have huge scrolls of dragons, so the old release format wasn't an issue.

 

To me, the new release format seems to be less of a releasing of a dragon into the cave and more of kind of discovering a breed that is already integrated and simply hasn't been seen before. And the complaint I've seen from most players isn't that they can't get any, it's that they could only get one or two when they used to be able to get all they needed. But if the intention is to cultivate the mind-set, in the majority of players, that meeting scroll goals is not 80 to 100 percent accomplished by showing up for the release, then I think this new format does an adequate job of that, and that fixing other issues that inhibit long-term collecting would address the problems most people have.

 

Which doesn't mean that I think that the plight of players with slower systems/connections should be ignored. I think that there should be things that help to compensate for that - such as a method of gathering CBs that is not via hunting (although I think hunting should remain the dominant method). I think expanding raffles, although winners are random, could help and we could have some that happen more often and offer prizes that are obtainable now as opposed to Prizes dragons, Holidays, or CB alts.

 

But I don't think that the way to address it is by skewing the game away from the majority of players - almost all of whom began this game in the hunt, and so accepted that aspect of it and, honestly, most that I know actually enjoy that part of the game when it doesn't seem hopelessly broken.

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To solve cave-blocker problems, another idea is to Retire certain eggs. Just like what happened with the Frills, maybe it's time to retire certain unpopular breeds. This would possibly lower the ratio problem a bit (?).

I hope that never happens again. It pains me enough to see that the frills and original pinks are gone. I thought the frills looked amazing!

 

I may not like certain breeds, like the Waterwalkers or stone dragons, but they're still great to collect and it causes nothing but trouble to retire them.

 

I would love to get a frilled, but it's easier to get a Neglected at this point if it's even possible at all. sad.gif

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I would love to get a frilled, but it's easier to get a Neglected at this point if it's even possible at all.  sad.gif

You can get a Frill if you're a raffle winner, but other than that, no one can get them anymore and they always breed their partners egg if they produce one. sad.gif

 

I'm wouldn't necessarily be against migration, although as a person who works on lineages I do understand the concerns people have abut it. But if the migrations were done on a set schedule it would be somewhat like seasonals, and there's always the possibility of rotating lineage projects. I kind of get the feeling that one of the reason for the step up in new releases might be the hope that if we increase the breeds in the cave then eventually all of the commons will show up less and thus will be taken sooner. And part of the lessened release drops may be a way to try to jumpstart the biomes.

 

I just don't know if that will work given that there are some breeds that people simply have vasts amounts of.

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The RATIOS are the problem and have been for ages. Until TJ elects to fix THAT problem, nothing we say, do or ask for will matter. Because every problem we have is due to the BROKEN RATIOS.

Ratios do work, probably as intended. The problem is, they are setup to force players to collect the same amount of blockers _every_ year. So each player would need to collect, say, 20 cb of each cave blocker in order to get one of each rares. Fat chance that's happening.

 

Players get: Collect x of each dragon, each year.

Players want: Collect x of each dragon, per scroll.

 

Those goals are not mutual, and the longer DC runs, the more obvious it becomes that ratios are a choice that will always hurt the players and do nothing in their favor.

 

 

As for skauble's idea that connection etc is irrelevant: Give me 2 hours at home, alone, in front of my PC, and I guarantee you at least one rare catch. Give me the same time at my workplace connection, and I am glad if I can catch a xmas release.

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Ratios do work, probably as intended. The problem is, they are setup to force players to collect the same amount of blockers _every_ year. So each player would need to collect, say, 20 cb of each cave blocker in order to get one of each rares. Fat chance that's happening.

 

Players get: Collect x of each dragon, each year.

Players want: Collect x of each dragon, per scroll.

 

Those goals are not mutual, and the longer DC runs, the more obvious it becomes that ratios are a choice that will always hurt the players and do nothing in their favor.

Thing is, it *didn't* work that way to begin with - all dragons counted towards the ratios regardless of age and regardless of whether they were on a scroll or in the Wilderness. Now, no dragon over 1 year of age or in the Wilderness counts, and although I think that may have been changed because of player pressure, in the long run I think it's done more harm than good because now the ratios expect us all to grow all the dragons we grew last year all over again *this* year. And I don't know if too many people play like that, as you have observed.

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As for skauble's idea that connection etc is irrelevant: Give me 2 hours at home, alone, in front of my PC, and I guarantee you at least one rare catch. Give me the same time at my workplace connection, and I am glad if I can catch a xmas release.

Where did I say that connection is irrelevant? blink.gif

 

My entire post was about the fact that there are definitely system/connection differences but that I believe that the majority of people fall in a mid-range and that it's reasonable that the game is geared towards people with average systems/connections. That's why I said that when we have those connection/ping posts we seem to come out with a three tiered sort of view of players, but with the majority falling in the middle. That doesn't mean that either system or connection is irrelevant, it means that I don't think this is a game where there's a small number of ultra fast players and then everyone else is on slow systems/connections and can't catch things.

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Where did I say that connection is irrelevant? blink.gif

 

My entire post was about the fact that there are definitely system/connection differences but that I believe that the majority of people fall in a mid-range and that it's reasonable that the game is geared towards people with average systems/connections. That's why I said that when we have those connection/ping posts we seem to come out with a three tiered sort of view of players, but with the majority falling in the middle. That doesn't mean that either system or connection is irrelevant, it means that I don't think this is a game where there's a small number of ultra fast players and then everyone else is on slow systems/connections and can't catch things.

thanks for clarifying - makes a lot more sense, now.

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Thing is, it *didn't* work that way to begin with - all dragons counted towards the ratios regardless of age and regardless of whether they were on a scroll or in the Wilderness.  Now, no dragon over 1 year of age or in the Wilderness counts, and although I think that may have been changed because of player pressure, in the long run I think it's done more harm than good because now the ratios expect us all to grow all the dragons we grew last year all over again *this* year.  And I don't know if too many people play like that, as you have observed.

 

Having at least the most common breeds count for more than a year would do a great deal to alleviate it, but IIRC the change was made at least in part because of how it caused three-week-long drops, which isn't what I'd call "working properly" (although I can't refind any information on it).

 

Given the size of the site, I don't think the current ratio style has the slightest chance of actually working anymore, no matter how long a given dragon counts towards the ratios.

Edited by Guillotine

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