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Sexism

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All one can say about that is - I've seen that happen with boys - and also with ADULT men - including in my workplace. What's your point there ?

 

And men keep other men down too. Dog eat dog world for everyone. To me it's sexist that you seem to think only women do that. Ain't true.

Frankly I cant say I have seen that many guys go about things in a similar manner, without a doubt not as much as girls, nor have I ever heard a guy say "most of my friends are girls, I dont get along with guys" the opposite of which I have heard many girls say, all that is however not the point at all, I have raised the question of sexism within the same gender and as SPS has claimed

 

I tend to think that people use the "well, look how much women keep each other down" argument to distract from the real problem.

 

Yes, women keep women down. We're not all the same, you know. We don't all act like x, y, and z.

 

It's like when people say "well, black people say the n-word..."

 

its meant to "distract" from the real problem, which is basically deflecting IMO coz sexism within genders is a part of the problem, however ignoring it seems easier for you as it seems since its not about men...

 

Let's see then.

 

You specifically said people from non western countries. You did not say some people from some non western countries. Thus you ARE appointing yourself to speak for all of them based on your interactions with five people. And from my experience talking to people who play dragon cave in my country, (we do have a community ourselves you know) most of them either don't go on the forums as they cannot speak English that fluently, or only use the trading thread. Some of them don't care about issues like this. Now, that is a small sample, only around 30 people or so, but until there is a conprehensive poll I don't think we can use the "non-westerners are scared away by you guys" argument.

 

Read my things in the context, said one girl, other girl, third girl, I dont know all of the non-westerners, I never appointed myself to speak for all of them, I didnt even claim Im speaking for the ones I mentioned, I just stated a simple fact, manner in which people are posting has caused non-westerners to avoid posting coz they feel their opinions are less worthy, the fact that you are the only non westerner who expresses her opinions in here makes it a valid statement IMO, if out of 6 non-westerners who are not here only for trading only one dares to post, its a shame if you ask me....

 

Well, excuuuuse me, but I think I would know what I sound like while I'm posting. I can be rather direct and confrontational, Sockpuppet would know because I got warned twice, but if you are mistaking my being civil for being submissive and weak or being overly cautious, well, I can be more straightforward if you want.

 

Phrase "like she's walking on glass" turns into Submissive, weak or overly cautious... Interesting..

 

I think that sexism is prevalent everywhere, we should clean that up and not fight among ourselves about which cause is more worthy of fighting and also I think that a guy telling girls that they are overreacting while appointing himself to speak for other oppressed women is bleeping ridiculous. (Hope socky wouldn't find this too offensive but if it does I'll fix it)

 

Again, I feel like a broken record here, I say one thing and you decide that Im saying something else...

Edited by NixAyum

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Read my things in the context, said one girl, other girl, third girl, I dont know all of the non-westerners, I never appointed myself to speak for all of them, I didnt even claim Im speaking for the ones I mentioned, I just stated a simple fact, manner in which people are posting has caused non-westerners to avoid posting coz they feel their opinions are less worthy,

 

Could have said, "people I know from non-western countries" couldn't you? I'm saying that the way you phrased the sentence is problematic, you're saying that you didn't mean it that way, well guess who's the non-western female calling you out for stealing her voice? I'd have thought that a person w/ your credentials and sensibilities would have said something more like "sorry, didn't mean to sound like that." But then again...

 

But anyways,

 

the fact that you are the only non westerner who expresses her opinions in here makes it a valid statement IMO, if out of 6 non-westerners who are not here only for trading only one dares to post, its a shame if you ask me..
..

 

How do you know if there are many, many more non-westerners who are here to read things just decide to reflect on what they've read or just decide that their opinions are better explained by others? Or that they want to speak up, but cannot speak English that well and just opt to not speak up? Your sample, sorry, is laughably small to just decide that many non-westerners aren't opting to speak up just because they're scared.

 

IF THERE'S ANY OTHER INVISIBLE NON-WESTERNER READING MY POST, PLEASE SPEAK UP.

 

만약 다른 한국분들 중에 이거 읽으시는 분들 있으시면 저한테 쪽지라도 보내서 어떻게 생각하는지 알려주세요.

 

如果你不能说英语, 请告诉我, 我会翻译

 

There you go. If you don't speak up other people can never know what you're thinking.

 

My Chinese isn't that up to par, as any native speaker would know :/ but it's better than nothing.

 

Phrase "like she's walking on glass" turns into Submissive, weak or overly cautious... Interesting..

 

Looked it up in google, it says "To be very careful with someone because they get upset easily." Which implies that I'm overly cautious with other people around this forum because they're too temperamental. Don't blame me if you've a different version of this idiom, blame google.

 

Again, I feel like a broken record here, I say one thing and you decide that Im saying something else...

 

Don't worry, you're not the only one. rolleyes.gif

Edited by ylangylang

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Could have said, "people I know from non-western countries" couldn't you? I'm saying that the way you phrased the sentence is problematic, you're saying that you didn't mean it that way, well guess who's the non-western female calling you out for stealing her voice? I'd have thought that a person w/ your credentials and sensibilities would have said something more like "sorry, didn't mean to sound like that." But then again...

 

I said its what I've heard from a few people, not all people.

This is the first time you've said you feel as if I were stealing your voice, had no reason to think that way before, so.... I speak only for myself as I have earlier claimed, had no intention of speaking for others nor stealing your voice, if you got offended by it I apologize, wasnt my intention....

 

But anyways,

 

..

 

How do you know if there are many, many more non-westerners who are here to read things just decide to reflect on what they've read or just decide that their opinions are better explained by others? Or that they want to speak up, but cannot speak English that well and just opt to not speak up? Your sample, sorry, is laughably small to just decide that many non-westerners aren't opting to speak up just because they're scared.

 

IF THERE'S ANY OTHER INVISIBLE NON-WESTERNER READING MY POST, PLEASE SPEAK UP.

 

만약 다른 한국분들 중에 이거 읽으시는 분들 있으시면 저한테 쪽지라도 보내서 어떻게 생각하는지 알려주세요.

 

如果你不能说英语, 请告诉我, 我会翻译

 

There you go. If you don't speak up other people can never know what you're thinking. 

 

My Chinese isn't that up to par, as any native speaker would know :/ but it's better than nothing.

 

I dont know, I've only spoken of what I know, which is 4-5 not speaking and one expressing herself, what you have done above is cool with me, I encourage them to speak up even if its the opposite of everything I say....

 

Looked it up in google, it says "To be very careful with someone because they get upset easily." Which implies that I'm overly cautious with other people around this forum because they're too temperamental. Don't blame me if you've a different version of this idiom, blame google.

 

Thats cool, havent figured out why did you call it submissive or weak though...

Edited by The Evil Doer

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IF THERE'S ANY OTHER INVISIBLE NON-WESTERNER READING MY POST, PLEASE SPEAK UP.

 

만약 다른 한국분들 중에 이거 읽으시는 분들 있으시면 저한테 쪽지라도 보내서 어떻게 생각하는지 알려주세요.

 

如果你不能说英语, 请告诉我, 我会翻译

 

There you go. If you don't speak up other people can never know what you're thinking. 

 

나는 영국이지만 당신과 동의합니다. 그 녀석이 절 괴롭히는 것이있다.

 

(I ran that back through the translator and it isn't quite right, but...)

 

我不能说你的语言。不过不用担心。

 

That one is better. xd.png

 

Looked it up in google, it says "To be very careful with someone because they get upset easily." Which implies that I'm overly cautious with other people around this forum because they're too temperamental. Don't blame me if you've a different version of this idiom, blame google.

I never thought of you as that cautious. But I love what you have to say about all this.

Don't worry, you're not the only one. rolleyes.gif

user posted image

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ylangylang, I agree with just about everything you just said. Some of us are listening to you.

 

Thats cool, havent figured out why did you call it submissive or weak though...

 

It's used (most often in the form of 'walk on eggshells') to describe how people behave around those who are going to hurt them if they don't behave in this manner. For that reason it is submissive, because they are curtailing their own actions to placate a stronger person with more power who has demonstrated an absolute willingness to use it against them. One walks on glass or eggshells around a drunk and abusive parent. ylangylang is not walking on glass around this forum.

 

biggrin.gif I'm quite amused that you recognise there's a very 'me' way of saying things.

 

On topic - yes, on a personal level. As soon as it was pointed out to me that doing something offended someone then I'd stop doing it around them. That applies to anyone, of any gender. That said I'd wouldn't go out and campaign, or try to change things on a large level, when I honestly can't see what the problem is. I'm not going to try and change the things about society that don't seem broken to me, if that makes sense.

 

I'll change myself if I realise something I'm doing is upsetting people, but I won't go out and try to change society for them.

 

And, to be fair, I'm more likely to change myself if the person doing it is polite then if they rip into me about something. Ripping into me about something that's upsetting you is just likely to make me avoid you.

 

Changing your behaviors when they are pointed out does help change society : )

 

(I'm more likely too; I think that's just being human. Still, I do hope that if something I did that seemed very innocuous to me offended or hurt someone that the ripped into me over it and I can't figure out why, that, all other things being unknown (as in, it's not my dad getting upset because I know he's had a fantastically bad three weeks, for example) I'd make some effort to figure it out. Eventually, after I stopped nursing the metaphorical bite marks.)

 

And @KageSora - thanks for that brilliant analogy - I am in exactly the same position; meds over many episodes over many years until I was hospitalised and then we started looking at how to head away from the small triggers. I've not had to use any meds since.

 

It was a very good analogy. I'm in a similar position but, unfortunately, have a real hard time moving away from the 'small' triggers because I live with one of them and she's not small >_<

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It's used (most often in the form of 'walk on eggshells') to describe how people behave around those who are going to hurt them if they don't behave in this manner.  For that reason it is submissive, because they are curtailing their own actions to placate a stronger person with more power who has demonstrated an absolute willingness to use it against them.  One walks on glass or eggshells around a drunk and abusive parent.  ylangylang is not walking on glass around this forum.

 

Does a kid walk on eggshells around abusive parents, yeah he probably does, does one walk on eggshells around a rape victim, if s/he's a decent human being yeah one does so, the phrase means being diplomatic, considerate, inoffensive, careful, etc... weak and submissive not so much, at least not in my book, but thank god we all see things in a different manner so.. you see it as weak and submissive, so be it, I respect that....

Edited by The Evil Doer

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It was a very good analogy. I'm in a similar position but, unfortunately, have a real hard time moving away from the 'small' triggers because I live with one of them and she's not small >_<

The small triggers there would be little things ABOUT her, and working on dealing with the things she DOES that bug you.

 

Not "She is awful and makes me depressed, I need to move out," but more "How can I make myself not feel bad when she criticises my cooking" and "How can I train myself not to mind the things she says about my friends and remember that she is the ignorant one, not me." Learn to change the way you feel, think and react, as you don't have a prayer of changing her. There are whole books of exercises with things you can do to modify the way you feel about things like this. (PM me if you want a few professionally recommended titles...)

 

SMALL things. As you say - she's not small... xd.png

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(I'm more likely too; I think that's just being human. Still, I do hope that if something I did that seemed very innocuous to me offended or hurt someone that the ripped into me over it and I can't figure out why, that, all other things being unknown (as in, it's not my dad getting upset because I know he's had a fantastically bad three weeks, for example) I'd make some effort to figure it out. Eventually, after I stopped nursing the metaphorical bite marks.)

For myself I just tend to retreat in hurt and confusion if people snap at me and I don't know why. But that *is* aspiness. And as I'm never certain I can predict when they're going to do it again those people go on my avoid list.

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its meant to "distract" from the real problem, which is basically deflecting IMO coz sexism within genders is a part of the problem, however ignoring it seems easier for you as it seems since its not about men...

 

Women being sexist is not a "worse" form of sexism. It may make it harder to understand, perhaps sadder for some, but it's not a "worse" form of sexism. I want to focus on all types of sexism, not just girls mistreating each other. I have no idea how you jumped to the conclusion that I only care about men being sexist. rolleyes.gif Nowhere did I say that women didn't mistreat each other or that we shouldn't. All I said was people use it as a distraction. "Well, why should I respect you if you can't respect each other?" Women are not hivemind. There are sexist women and there are men who are feminist. Why is it that women mistreating women is more important to you than men mistreating women? It is as important to me.

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Women being sexist is not a "worse" form of sexism. It may make it harder to understand, perhaps sadder for some, but it's not a "worse" form of sexism. I want to focus on all types of sexism, not just girls mistreating each other. I have no idea how you jumped to the conclusion that I only care about men being sexist. rolleyes.gif Nowhere did I say that women didn't mistreat each other or that we shouldn't. All I said was people use it as a distraction. "Well, why should I respect you if you can't respect each other?" Women are not hivemind. There are sexist women and there are men who are feminist. Why is it that women mistreating women is more important to you than men mistreating women? It is as important to me.

Wait, what ? You tell me to bring a new discussion to the table, I bring up one which I have a tough time understanding, I ask for your input on the subject as a woman, about in general what your opinion on it is at all and you shrug it off by saying "yes it happens, and I think men use it to distract from the real problem" ??? Which is as I said basically you deflecting and making it about men again even though men are not in the equation at all....

 

I didnt say its worse, I didnt justify sexism by saying women do it too, I was merely bringing up one forms of sexism which hasnt been discussed and asked for your opinion on it since I as a man cant seem to understand it, was looking for a female POV, the direction is understanding the phenomena, not turning this around and somewhere along the way claiming that sexism is ok, coz I dont think its ok...

 

There are sexist women and feminist men out there... I dont get it, sexist women are sexist towards their own gender, feminist men believe in equality of all genders ( I believe it is you who said so), feminist men arent sexist towards other men so I fail to see the connection between sexist women and feminist men...

 

I just brought a topic up for discussion, where did you get from that its more important to me ? Its not more important but it is much harder for me to understand, we all agree that the world is dominated by men, and that there is sexism in almost every aspect of our lives, there is no chance in hell a woman can go through life without experiencing sexism in one form or the other, so why would those same women who experience sexism daily, submit other women to the exact same thing ? It seems like much more often than us guys women simply dislike other women, I dont get it ?

Edited by The Evil Doer

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Wait, what ? You tell me to bring a new discussion to the table, I bring up one which I have a tough time understanding, I ask for your input on the subject as a woman, about in general what your opinion on it is at all and you shrug it off by saying "yes it happens, and I think men use it to distract from the real problem" ???

 

No. No I did not. Not in the slightest. At all. Just no.

 

I tend to think that people use the "well, look how much women keep each other down" argument to distract from the real problem.

 

Why is it more of a problem for you that women are sexist?

 

Which is as I said basically you deflecting and making it about men again even though men are not in the equation at all....

 

Again I said nothing about men.

 

Here is my full post, so you can double check that yourself: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6094375

 

I tend to think that people use the "well, look how much women keep each other down" argument to distract from the real problem.

 

Yes, women keep women down. We're not all the same, you know. We don't all act like x, y, and z.

 

It's like when people say "well, black people say the n-word..."

 

I didnt say its worse, I didnt justify sexism by saying women do it too, I was merely bringing up one forms of sexism which hasnt been discussed and asked for your opinion on it since I as a man cant seem to understand it, was looking for a female POV, the direction is understanding the phenomena, not turning this around and somewhere along the way claiming that sexism is ok, coz I dont think its ok...

 

I actually do believe we have discussed women being sexist before, though it wasn't our current topic of discussion.

 

Your post wasn't asking a question. Perhaps if you had said you didn't understand it, you would have gotten more discussion.

 

As for understanding it - well, why are men sexist? Why is anybody?

 

Why are there some homophobic gay people? Why are people racist against themselves? Why are there overweight people who fat bash?

 

Language, laws, history, etc. There is a certain type in power and they don't want to lose their power, so they continue to do things that undermine those not like them to keep them down. Discrimination is so perverse in our culture. People learn it at a young age. Some people have this pounded into them so well they can never understand the other side. Some people benefit from this, can't see the other side, and don't care about the other side since they benefit from it. Some people (everybody at some point will do this) don't realize what they are doing or how it is coming off. Etc.

 

There are sexist women and feminist men out there... I dont get it, sexist women are sexist towards their own gender, feminist men believe in equality of all genders ( I believe it is you who said so), feminist men arent sexist towards other men so I fail to see the connection between sexist women and feminist men...

 

Being shocked that women can be sexist is like being shocked that men can be feminists.

 

I just brought a topic up for discussion, where did you get from that its more important to me ? Its not more important but it is much harder for me to understand, we all agree that the world is dominated by men, and that there is sexism in almost every aspect of our lives, there is no chance in hell a woman can go through life without experiencing sexism in one form or the other, so why would those same women who experience sexism daily, submit other women to the exact same thing ?

 

Answered above. In addition, there are likely people discriminated against that find it easier to find success if they take up the attitudes of those around them. Or they think that they can reach the top of whatever power and change things if they just pretend to be like those around them for a while.

 

It seems like much more often than us guys women simply dislike other women, I dont get it ?

 

If this is true, it probably comes down to sexism telling us women are not as good as men and you have to be a certain way to be liked.

 

But anyway. I am done re-stating myself and trying to explain the same things, so I'm moving on to other topics of conversation.

 

~

 

Another thing shared with me by my friend Trigger Warning for Pic in article: http://now.msn.com/now/0323-belvedere-rape-ad.aspx

 

Belvedere vodka published an ad on its Facebook page this week that, inexplicably, featured a startled (terrified?) woman being seized from behind by a grinning, drunken-looking dolt. The accompanying text, "Unlike some people, Belvedere always goes down smoothly," might as well have read, "Sexually motivated abductions and rapes are easier to pull off when the girl's drunk." Within a couple hours, the furor reached such a pitch that Belvedere pulled the ad and issued an apology ("As always, we continue to be an advocate of safe and responsible drinking") -- but not before at least 403 Facebook users had "liked" the ad, while those complaining about its content earned such criticism from fans, such as "Grow a pair, its [sic] funny."

 

The picture they used is just absolutely terrifying. It's highly disturbing that people can advertise like this and think it's okay.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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No. No I did not. Not in the slightest. At all. Just no.

 

Why is it more of a problem for you that women are sexist?

 

Again I said nothing about men.

 

Here is my full post, so you can double check that yourself: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=6094375

 

I actually do believe we have discussed women being sexist before, though it wasn't our current topic of discussion.

 

Your post wasn't asking a question. Perhaps if you had said you didn't understand it, you would have gotten more discussion.

 

As for understanding it - well, why are men sexist? Why is anybody?

 

Why are there some homophobic gay people? Why are people racist against themselves? Why are there overweight people who fat bash?

 

Language, laws, history, etc. There is a certain type in power and they don't want to lose their power, so they continue to do things that undermine those not like them to keep them down. Discrimination is so perverse in our culture. People learn it at a young age. Some people have this pounded into them so well they can never understand the other side. Some people benefit from this, can't see the other side, and don't care about the other side since they benefit from it. Some people (everybody at some point will do this) don't realize what they are doing or how it is coming off. Etc.

 

Being shocked that women can be sexist is like being shocked that men can be feminists.

 

Answered above. In addition, there are likely people discriminated against that find it easier to find success if they take up the attitudes of those around them. Or they think that they can reach the top of whatever power and change things if they just pretend to be like those around them for a while.

 

 

If this is true, it probably comes down to sexism telling us women are not as good as men and you have to be a certain way to be liked.

 

But anyway. I am done re-stating myself and trying to explain the same things, so I'm moving on to other topics of conversation.~

 

Another thing shared with me by my friend: http://now.msn.com/now/0323-belvedere-rape-ad.aspx

 

The picture they used is just absolutely terrifying. It's highly disturbing that people can advertise like this and think it's okay.

 

You're right, its a waste of our energy... was interesting, have a nice weekend wink.gif

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Yes, of course. But we're debating the extent to which the sexes are sexualized, and frankly there's a series of examples that show that women are more sexualized than men.

 

in the case of superheroes- do they rip off their shirt and show their abs all the time? No. I don't see Luke Skywalker topless. But we do get to see Leia in her infamous metal bikini. Same with fishnets, stilettoes, unzipped tops, etc. I do see men wearing tight spandex to show of their muscles, but women have spandex+other stuff. Which sometimes are practically useless if you're in a fight. Trust me, you can't run on rooftops with stiletto heels.

 

Instead of using “sexualized”, how about hyper-feminized and hyper-masculinized? However, not all girls think masculine men are attractive. A lot like pretty boys. *cough* Justin Bieber *cough* Men, however, really don’t find girls with masculine features attractive. Maybe that’s part of the reason why you think females are sexualized more. It’s not our fault women are the fairer sex.

 

Women focus on looks, social status, and money, so I fail to see how these comic books are making women into sex toys. If men didn’t value looks as much, it’ll just shift to something else. This is like thinking Communism is good policy. It doesn’t work because of human nature.

 

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/35to8j/

 

xd.png

 

How's that judgment compared to the promotion of violence in video games? You’re arguing that it causes men to think that women are just for men’s sexual pleasure, so do video games increase violence significantly?

 

And if super heroes in video games and comics are like the giggling school boy finding manhood, then what does that make of the entertainment industry, or better yet, the pron industry?

 

b. Ugly women are frequently subject to humorous jokes, at least in my country, whereas ugly men are less so. For example, there was this girl who basically said on television that "men who are less than 6 feet tall are losers" or something to that degree. She got an amazing amount of backlash, was basically kicked out of her university and her internship, and still can't get a job. However, ugly women (including fat women) on TV are frequently made fun of, at least in my country. Ugly men, not so much.

 

What country? Probably could guess, but you can PM me if you don’t want to publically post it.

 

user posted image

 

xd.png

 

c. In ads that feature a family, the mother is usually shown as friggin' beautiful. The dad is usually average. This shows that there is a greater emphasis on women to be beautiful even when they're rearing children and sometimes having a job at the same time. This disparity is so great that sometimes I don't think they are in the same age range.

 

I can come up with much more, but it's time for me to sleep, and I can't think of any more off the top of my head at the moment.

 

How do you know the dad is just average? How do you know the woman is "friggin' beautiful?"

 

There's plenty on the thread. Just look.

 

Are you satisfied for now?

 

Is that all? Are those the worst you could find? Virtually everything is exaggerated in comics, and it isn’t that far from the truth. You have women shaped like apples, pears, bananas, and hourglasses. Depending on their build, a little lordosis can make them more attractive.

 

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007...n-of-pregnancy/

 

Seriously, body image has become a friggin' big problem in my country and other parts of the-area-where-I-live but no one's taking care of it. We have products that are targeted towards 7 yr olds that say "if you eat this, you'll get a curvy figure!" WTF.

 

I read an article about a person from China giving up his kidney for an iPad or whatever it was. WTF. xd.png

 

She was probably a fertility symbol. As is many other male figures of that era that show enlarged *ahem* man bits. Which is understandable because people those days were very much concerned about fertility and having lots of children and such. For example on a male fertility symbol: Careful! Not office-friendly at all *Disclaimer: Not a part of my culture, so you can't argue that this is specific to some countries.*

 

Also I do see many images portraying women with huge breasts and behind, but almost none that emphasizes, well, a guy's manly bits.

 

So? Saying that feminized women in comic books make them sex toys for men is ridiculous.

 

Whoa! Put that back! Do you know why girls are bad at math? Because they’ve been told their whole lives that that was nine inches.

 

user posted image

 

And I never associated "fighting like a girl" as "fighting dirty," but more being weak and ineffectual. Although if you truly think women are weak fighters, I'd love you to meet a few girls in my grupo or a couple of the bouncers ;~)

 

I did. Girls pull hair and scratch. xd.png

 

I remember saying to Kestra, for example, that in my country women with huge salaries and higher education levels are not really considered marriage material because they scare away men) and share them, and I do hope that it contributed to people.

 

One reason, for here, I think is because they’re afraid of their expectations. Women initiate divorce more often, and divorce laws are stacked against men. Sort of like how some men won’t approach women they find extremely attractive because they don’t think they have a chance.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...eTabs%3Darticle

 

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Feel kind of foolish for jumping in at a random time (and not even pertaining to the real topic), but the talk about Westerners and non-Westerners has me a bit confused. Does 'non-Western' mean not from N. America or Europe? I always thought it referred specifically to N. America, but the talk of how few 'non-Westerns' were speaking up struck me as odd as I believe someone earlier mentioned they were from Spain. I'm sure a few other posters are from parts of Europe as well. Maybe even Australia.

 

Hah, sorry. Trying to catch up and read along with the topic, any clarification would be appreciated.

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Instead of using “sexualized”, how about hyper-feminized and hyper-masculinized?

Define feminine and masculine.

 

Being a woman, I know that one trait women don't have is boobs that face in the same direction as our butts. So that cannot be 'hyper-feminine' in any capacity, since feminine must have something to do with female and not providing easy access for the eyes of those who like to look at boobs and butts at the same time.

 

If the point is to appeal to breast men, butt men, and leg men at the same time with the same image, what you have is sexualized to the nth.

 

Promise I'll read the rest of your post (and the rest of the posts) when I get back : )

 

ETA real quick for Nine: 'Western' tends to mean Western Europe, North America, Central America, and Australia. Probably South America too. What it isn't is Africa, large parts of Asia, Eastern Europe, etc. Generally. Though I think some parts of Africa are more Western than others...basically, if it's on the west half of the planet or is rooted in Western Europe somehow, it's likely Western.

Edited by Princess Artemis

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Another thing shared with me by my friend: http://now.msn.com/now/0323-belvedere-rape-ad.aspx

 

 

 

The picture they used is just absolutely terrifying. It's highly disturbing that people can advertise like this and think it's okay.

Wow. That image was SO much worse than I was expecting it to be! I thought it'd be some girl who seemed to be having a good time in a bar or somewhere, with friends, looking irritated because some jerk was trying to goose her (pinch her butt, for those of you who don't know the slang) or something. What I didn't expect to see was a woman in what looked like an isolated situation, in the middle of screaming or gasping, her eyes wide open, trying with both hands to pull off the arms of a leering man that are wrapped the whole way around her from behind. It's a really threatening image.

 

And their vodka "goes down more smoothly than some people?" What a disgusting tagline!

 

I have to wonder who thought this was a good ad campaign. Honestly.

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I speak only for myself as I have earlier claimed, had no intention of speaking for others nor stealing your voice, if you got offended by it I apologize, wasnt my intention....

 

No lasting harm done.

 

Thats cool, havent figured out why did you call it submissive or weak though...

 

Because of what Princess Artemis said. Thanks Princess Artemis!

 

 

나는 영국이지만 당신과 동의합니다. 그 녀석이 절 괴롭히는 것이있다.

 

(I ran that back through the translator and it isn't quite right, but...)

 

我不能说你的语言。不过不用担心。

 

That one is better.

 

It's not really correct, but I got the gist. Thanks for the support and the cute bunny picture *hug*

 

Instead of using “sexualized”, how about hyper-feminized and hyper-masculinized? However, not all girls think masculine men are attractive. A lot like pretty boys. *cough* Justin Bieber *cough* Men, however, really don’t find girls with masculine features attractive. Maybe that’s part of the reason why you think females are sexualized more. It’s not our fault women are the fairer sex.

 

Women focus on looks, social status, and money, so I fail to see how these comic books are making women into sex toys. If men didn’t value looks as much, it’ll just shift to something else. This is like thinking Communism is good policy. It doesn’t work because of human nature.

 

1. And how many other guys make fun of Bieber for being "gay" "girlish" etc? Face it, masculinity IS the accepted norm for guys and although many other girls may like it it's not represented in comics, which means that the views of comic books and such are not catering to the needs of girls in themselves, but generally guys.

 

2. rolleyes.gif When you get married, at least in the region I live, the girl's wealth and social status comes into play too. Contrast to what you've read, a high percentage of guys marry girls who make a similar income as they do. Which would mean that social status and money is important for girls as well. (Curiously though-guys don't like it when the girl's status and money is higher than what they have. Just similar or slightly lower seems to rock their boats.)

 

3. You think girls don't value looks? That seems to be contrasting the bieber statement you just made.

 

How's that judgment compared to the promotion of violence in video games? You’re arguing that it causes men to think that women are just for men’s sexual pleasure, so do video games increase violence significantly?

 

Look. We're arguing that women in video games and comics represent a view of women that's unrealistic. Same with the overuse of photoshop.

 

What country? Probably could guess, but you can PM me if you don’t want to publically post it.

 

Please don't guess. More like the entire region of Asia.

 

Plus, you have to know that guys who are smart aren't looked down by the entire world. Maybe in your region, because I've never, ever encountered such views towards smart guys in my region. Not my fault that your culture derides education it seems. Nerds, in my country, apply both to women and men, and are usually targeted those who indulge themselves in (usually) Japanese games/comics/whatever and don't interact with the outside world.

 

Also, you think that male Harvard and Yale graduates are nerds instead of bright young people on their way to being successful? But they're the ones who study so hard, according to your meme, they should be shunned at the marriage market.

 

Not to mention that I find arguing by posting inane memes slightly more than ridiculous. I can post memes that basically argue that men are enlarged dicks with no brain. That doesn't make it true.

 

How do you know the dad is just average? How do you know the woman is "friggin' beautiful?"

 

You want me to personally go around taking pictures of every family ad that I see and survey people by displaying it on this forum? I can do that you know.

 

 

Is that all? Are those the worst you could find? Virtually everything is exaggerated in comics, and it isn’t that far from the truth. You have women shaped like apples, pears, bananas, and hourglasses. Depending on their build, a little lordosis can make them more attractive.

 

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007...n-of-pregnancy/

 

Big difference from being a bit exaggerated and being exaggerated all the time. I find it funny that since Japanese anime became prevalent in Asian culture, people are actually going for a look that emphasizes anime-like features. So...culture and exaggerating features does affect real life.

 

I read an article about a person from China giving up his kidney for an iPad or whatever it was. WTF.

 

Thing is, the passage I said above-little girls being pressured to have curves-is prevalent. Ipad-not so much. I read somewhere that there were padded bikinis now for prepubescent girls, but I can't find it. And I have a nagging suspicion in my mind that you know that I'm Asian and made the China connection, but I won't point any fingers here.

 

So? Saying that feminized women in comic books make them sex toys for men is ridiculous.

 

Whoa! Put that back! Do you know why girls are bad at math? Because they’ve been told their whole lives that that was nine inches

 

rolleyes.gif You don't get why women are objecting to these at all, do you? Because they portray an unrealistic image of women. Not to mention that I don't find that joke funny.

 

One reason, for here, I think is because they’re afraid of their expectations. Women initiate divorce more often, and divorce laws are stacked against men. Sort of like how some men won’t approach women they find extremely attractive because they don’t think they have a chance.

 

Lord WTF?

 

You are talking about a phenomenon that I was talking about in a part of the world where 80 years ago having a second wife was the norm, and where the marriage law granted women a share of their money about 50 years ago? You think marriage laws are stacked against males in this part of the world? Think again. Sorry, but marriage laws are not stacked for the part of women. Not to mention I find it hilarious that you think women initiate divorce more often then men and so somehow benefit from it. If so why do stigmas against divorced women are quite strong here, but the reverse virtually doesn't exist?

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Wow. That image was SO much worse than I was expecting it to be! I thought it'd be some girl who seemed to be having a good time in a bar or somewhere, with friends, looking irritated because some jerk was trying to goose her (pinch her butt, for those of you who don't know the slang) or something. What I didn't expect to see was a woman in what looked like an isolated situation, in the middle of screaming or gasping, her eyes wide open, trying with both hands to pull off the arms of a leering man that are wrapped the whole way around her from behind. It's a really threatening image.

 

And their vodka "goes down more smoothly than some people?" What a disgusting tagline!

 

I have to wonder who thought this was a good ad campaign. Honestly.

Actually had to go back and add a trigger warning, because yeah, that picture is terrifying.

 

There is no part of that ad that I can respect. It is good to know that there are enough people who speak up against that kind of thing that it was removed, but still. o_o

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One reason, for here, I think is because they’re afraid of their expectations. Women initiate divorce more often, and divorce laws are stacked against men. Sort of like how some men won’t approach women they find extremely attractive because they don’t think they have a chance.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...eTabs%3Darticle

That link actually led to a really interesting and articulate magazine article. I don't see how it was related to your post, though; the claims you made in the previous sentences weren't discussed in the artucle. What was it that you wished to point out about the content?

Edited by Kelkelen

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ETA real quick for Nine:  'Western' tends to mean Western Europe, North America, Central America, and Australia.  Probably South America too.  What it isn't is Africa, large parts of Asia, Eastern Europe, etc.  Generally.  Though I think some parts of Africa are more Western than others...basically, if it's on the west half of the planet or is rooted in Western Europe somehow, it's likely Western.

I see, thanks. When I grew up I'd always heard the term used in reference to Americans (and maybe Brits); I don't think anyone would have considered themselves a Westerner. Geographically though, it probably makes things easier to group it into one term.

 

The Most Interesting Man in the World would not approve of that alcohol ad. Not very classy =o

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My views on sexism in the media are best summed up in the first few lines of the song "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" by Blue Oyster Cult.

 

You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars

I've been living on the edge so long

Where the winds of limbo roar

And I'm young enough to look at

And far too old to see

All the scars are on the inside

I'm not sure if there's anything left of me

 

All the conflicting "Be yourself" , "Look fabulous" and similar messages both genders get produce crossfire that scars everyone.

 

Edited for spelling oops.

Edited by Stripey

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The Most Interesting Man in the World would not approve of that alcohol ad. Not very classy =o

 

No he wouldn't. That's a terrible ad >_<

 

(Sorry, was going to respond to more, but got caught in a tangle of barely related sentences up yonder. Maybe I'll try again later.)

 

ETA: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/201...inisms-new-hero

 

Totally different subject, but I just saw this. I think y'all might like to see too.

Edited by Princess Artemis

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user posted image

 

This is something that is completely based on attractiveness. If a guy isn't socially outgoing but attractive, he's "deep, dark, and mysterious". If a girl isn't socially outgoing and unattractive, she's creepy, weird, and 'gross'. It goes both ways.

 

Also, I can walk into most clothing stores and come out with a shirt, hat, or sweater that says, "I <3 NERDS". It's not a bad thing anymore.

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This is something that is completely based on attractiveness. If a guy isn't socially outgoing but attractive, he's "deep, dark, and mysterious". If a girl isn't socially outgoing and unattractive, she's creepy, weird, and 'gross'. It goes both ways.

 

Also, I can walk into most clothing stores and come out with a shirt, hat, or sweater that says, "I <3 NERDS". It's not a bad thing anymore.

Yes indeed ^ ^

 

If a man marries a much younger woman he is considered to have achieved something, be a STUD (ick).

 

If a woman marries a much younger man she is a cradle snatcher.

 

A man of 50, 60 whatever, gets better looking as he matures.

 

A woman of that age is past it.

 

Appearance only matters for WOMEN. Men are entitled to grab it. WE get to take them on just because they are MEN.

 

And that Guardian link is excellent.

 

She tweeted a link on Wednesday; watching it I whooped out loud. I did so because, as well as being a threat to the traditional post-sex tape narrative, where the woman is quietly disgraced, this was an unlikely feminist moment.

Look at that. The WOMAN is quietly disgraced. Why isn't the MAN equally so ?? Says it all.

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Define feminine and masculine.

Being a woman, I know that one trait women don't have is boobs that face in the same direction as our butts. So that cannot be 'hyper-feminine' in any capacity, since feminine must have something to do with female and not providing easy access for the eyes of those who like to look at boobs and butts at the same time.

If the point is to appeal to breast men, butt men, and leg men at the same time with the same image, what you have is sexualized to the nth.

Promise I'll read the rest of your post (and the rest of the posts) when I get back : )

 

I’ll point out the biological basis of the two instead of just listing features.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...0050665030.html

 

“And one of the hallmarks of a quality male is good health.

But what does health have to do with masculinity? The link is testosterone, the hormone behind manly muscles, strong jaws, prominent eyebrow ridges, facial hair and deep voices. Testosterone is immunosuppressive. This means a man must be healthy and in good condition to withstand its effects on his development. Testosterone is also linked to other traits related to strength: fitness, fertility and dominance.”

 

Similarly, women with lots of estrogen tend to have feminine features.

 

Moreover, there have been studies that show even newborns prefer to look at faces that society thinks as attractive. Even in the animal kingdom, you’ll see this. Guppy females choose who to mate with i.e. males that have the right orange coloring. If males don’t get what they want, they’ll harass the females.

 

Complaining about sexual objectification in comics and games is futile, and it’s a bit ridiculous considering that as more women become financially independent, they too, start focusing more on appearance. If they’re very attractive, they do this already. No comic book figure needed!

 

“A study led by psychologist Fhionna Moore at the University of St. Andrews finds that as women's level of "resource control" increases—that is, they become more financially independent—their preference for good-looking men increases.”

 

1. And how many other guys make fun of Bieber for being "gay" "girlish" etc? Face it, masculinity IS the accepted norm for guys and although many other girls may like it it's not represented in comics, which means that the views of comic books and such are not catering to the needs of girls in themselves, but generally guys.

 

What about the villain, Pretty Boy!? A lot of guys are jealous of pretty boys because they know girls like that appearance. They don’t get harassed like a nerd does; there are other reasons why Justin Bieber gets negative comments from guys.

 

If a comic book has female readers, then they’ll go for tall, attractive masculine guys or pretty boys, or whatever they think is ideal, and I doubt all readers would be represented. Contrary to belief, not all guys like to see typical steroid-filled musclemen.

 

2.  When you get married, at least in the region I live, the girl's wealth and social status comes into play too. Contrast to what you've read, a high percentage of guys marry girls who make a similar income as they do.

 

They’re generalizations, so obviously there are exceptions to the rule.

 

Which would mean that social status and money is important for girls as well. (Curiously though-guys don't like it when the girl's status and money is higher than what they have. Just similar or slightly lower seems to rock their boats.)

 

You're probably overstating the money portion, but this isn't hard to understand. A man with a high income would have a easier time competing for a woman with a relatively high income because he probably brings more to the table.

 

You don’t do feminism any favors by generalizing that it is a power play by men.

 

3. You think girls don't value looks? That seems to be contrasting the bieber statement you just made.

 

Where have I suggested that? You missed the part where I mentioned “Women focus on looks, social status, and money”.

 

http://www.thejokeyard.com/sexist_jokes/sh..._a_husband.html

 

Look. We're arguing that women in video games and comics represent a view of women that's unrealistic. Same with the overuse of photoshop.

 

And I’m arguing that it is human nature. You undermine your own argument by suggesting that comics aren’t catering to women because they don’t have pretty boys. It’s hypocritical to suggest that woman ideals need to be catered to and men’s need to be taken out!

 

Plus, you have to know that guys who are smart aren't looked down by the entire world. Maybe in your region, because I've never, ever encountered such views towards smart guys in my region. Not my fault that your culture derides education it seems. Nerds, in my country, apply both to women and men, and are usually targeted those who indulge themselves in (usually) Japanese games/comics/whatever and don't interact with the outside world.

 

The point is that attitudes and laws can change without making insults and idealized figures in comics disappear. There’s bigger fish to fry. You think you’re going to change that when even the feminists don’t adhere to it? Many women see self-objectification as empowering themselves. Some call it “raunch culture”. This is no different than the War on Drugs.

 

Also, you think that male Harvard and Yale graduates are nerds instead of bright young people on their way to being successful? But they're the ones who study so hard, according to your meme, they should be shunned at the marriage market.

 

What I think the meme is pointing out: If a male has unusual interests, and isn’t good in social situations, he’ll likely be labeled a nerd and negatively criticized for it (especially if unattractive). Geek has different connotations than nerd. If labeled a geek, less likely to be unattractive or socially inept. (Note: Depends on the person, because those words can have different connotations). If it’s a nerdy girl, both sexes tend to be more accepting of the perceived faults. That’s the generalization being made. Additionally, they don’t even have to do well academically; they’re assumed to be if they don’t have much of a social life.

 

Not to mention that I find arguing by posting inane memes slightly more than ridiculous. I can post memes that basically argue that men are enlarged dicks with no brain. That doesn't make it true.

 

That’s the whole point. I see a lot of generalizations on here, so I’ll posts memes that show the opposite, even if they're not entirely true.

 

That meme wouldn’t be far from the truth for some men.

 

You want me to personally go around taking pictures of every family ad that I see and survey people by displaying it on this forum? I can do that you know.

 

No need to. You, like everyone else, shows there is a value system based on physical criterion. The posters on here are arguing that men aren’t being sexualized as much. As if girls don’t ogle Johnny Depp, Taylor Lautner, etc. and have unrealistic expectations. As if they don’t have all these romance novels with fictional men that have all these qualities that they think men should be expected to have.

 

Big difference from being a bit exaggerated and being exaggerated all the time. I find it funny that since Japanese anime became prevalent in Asian culture, people are actually going for a look that emphasizes anime-like features. So...culture and exaggerating features does affect real life.

 

I agree. It can make a difference albeit limited. This doeesn't mean that we should ban peoples’ preferences. There is some evidence that violence in video games can influence children. Does this mean we need to remove it from movies and video games?

 

More to the point, I think it’s ludicrous to say these comics cause men to view women as sex objects. Men factor in personality, too. What was it about inane memes?

 

Thing is, the passage I said above-little girls being pressured to have curves-is prevalent. Ipad-not so much. I read somewhere that there were padded bikinis now for prepubescent girls, but I can't find it. And I have a nagging suspicion in my mind that you know that I'm Asian and made the China connection, but I won't point any fingers here.

 

Eh, wasn’t really arguing, but that news about selling something for curves to 7 year olds didn’t sound mainstream. Is it really, or was it a more uncommon example?

 

Women are affected by eating disorders more, so that’s nothing new.

 

Even if I did, I’m not the one bashing Asia. tongue.gif

 

You don't get why women are objecting to these at all, do you? Because they portray an unrealistic image of women. Not to mention that I don't find that joke funny.

 

And you’re going to get rid of human nature how?

 

The joke was because you thought there was no emphasis on man bits. Women and men talk about it. They don’t need a comic book to realize it.

 

You are talking about a phenomenon that I was talking about in a part of the world where 80 years ago having a second wife was the norm, and where the marriage law granted women a share of their money about 50 years ago? You think marriage laws are stacked against males in this part of the world? Think again. Sorry, but marriage laws are not stacked for the part of women.

 

No, I specifically said in the U.S. that may be one reason. I’m guessing, like many in the U.S. assume, your assertion is that they want to control women, so they don’t want one that was independent. I was pointing out there may be other reasons. Maybe some have a preference for being a provider, and it has less to do with controlling. Maybe they’re more likely to have certain personalities that are off-putting. In the end, they get one, right?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...s-MORE-man.html

 

“And Nikki had problems with it, too. 'When we got back together, there was an element of me thinking: "If I'm this driven, then you have to be, too,"' she says.

'I even sent him to counseling to see if they could make him more ambitious.'

Nikki is echoing what large numbers of breadwinner wives have admitted to me privately - that while their men may delight in their success, the women can be secretly frustrated and disrespectful if their partner doesn't match their hunger and earning power.

 

It's a feeling borne out by relationship patterns, says Jacqueline Scott, Professor of Sociology at Cambridge University and an expert in women's changing roles in society.

 

'While successful men are often happy to marry a woman who will be less ambitious, successful women tend to marry men who are their economic equals,' she says.”

 

Not to mention I find it hilarious that you think women initiate divorce more often then men and so somehow benefit from it.

 

Nowhere did I suggest they all necessarily benefit from it. However, it can be an indication that they’re pickier, while men are more likely to muddle through a mediocre marriage.

 

I think that your poorly made joke, Nine (sorry, Evil Doer), shows to emphasize this. Men are supposed to be, er... well-endowed... in the privates category, and women are supposed to be vixens used for sex toys, and anything else is just a disappointment. (Not to mention that I find that remark that women can't do math offending.)

 

Nine? Evil Doer?

 

(Not to mention that I find that remark that women can't do math offending.)

 

It was a joke I heard from a female math teacher. Offense is taken, not given!

 

Male characters in comics generally have more diversity, but the main character is always a general stereotype of how men should be "because no one likes a plain/average hero."

 

I would argue that diversity is because males can be seen as attractive with masculine and feminine features. Women don’t have as much flexibility.

 

http://www.wfu.edu/news/release/2009.06.25.a.php

 

“There is much more consensus among men about whom they find attractive than there is among women, according to a new study by Wake Forest University psychologist Dustin Wood.”

 

That link actually led to a really interesting and articulate magazine article. I don't see how it was related to your post, though; the claims you made in the previous sentences weren't discussed in the artucle. What was it that you wished to point out about the content?

 

Expectations.The author makes sweeping generalizations. There are many female gamers, for example. Women in their 20’s can be just as immature. They sleep around, and then expect men to hold true to traditional roles? Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? If they want men conforming to the traditional roles of the past, then they have to go back to that lifestyle too, and that means dinner on the table by 5.

 

This is something that is completely based on attractiveness. If a guy isn't socially outgoing but attractive, he's "deep, dark, and mysterious". If a girl isn't socially outgoing and unattractive, she's creepy, weird, and 'gross'. It goes both ways.

 

That was the point. If they’re going to make generalizations, I’ll make generalizations. I do disagree with what you’ve said, though. Is a guy who is attractive or at least average and socially inept always doing well with women? Or not being picked on? And “weird” and “creepy” seem to be words more directed towards guys than females. A lot of guys joke about the fat girls “needing lovin’ too” or having “more bounce to the ounce”.

 

Also, I can walk into most clothing stores and come out with a shirt, hat, or sweater that says, "I <3 NERDS". It's not a bad thing anymore.

 

user posted image

 

xd.png

 

If a man marries a much younger woman he is considered to have achieved something, be a STUD (ick).

 

If a woman marries a much younger man she is a cradle snatcher.

 

How is it any better that the woman goes into it looking for social status and money? These aren’t arranged marriages. These are people doing what they want to do.

 

A man of 50, 60 whatever, gets better looking as he matures.

 

I’ve never heard anyone claim this. I’ve heard some prefer the look of men in their 30’s than 20’s, though.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/...01210075920.htm

 

“George Clooney Effect? High-Earning Women Want Older, More Attractive Partners, Research Finds”

 

A woman of that age is past it.

 

Do men get menopause and hot flashes? Can't blame em' for not wanting to put up with it!

 

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