Sexism

[Kelkelen]

Advertising and Market Strategy in a nutshell:

 

 

(Warning? -- Comedy sketch, contains one semi-vulgar word, depending on where you're from.)

[Sadako]

Well, there are some countries where it IS not...............shall we say, looked upon favorably by the masses if you're a woman, and you're not submissive (goes off to weep). I find that patriarchy does sort of instill that attitude in you. And yes, there are derogatory names for women who are like that. Same goes for the men. If you're not a strong drinker (which seems to be a factor in how manly you are in this region at least) you get ridiculed.

 

But yes, I do agree that the meme itself is ridiculous.

 

Oh, I should probably point out that I'm viewing this through the lens of 'modern western' life in a large city in America, which has its own ups and downs of all kinds.

 

One of the perks seems to be that women can be more independent and less submissive than they can in some cultures, but we do most definitely still have a lot of elements of the ultra-patriarchal in our society, and one of the negatives seems to be that young people, when first figuring out dating and relationships and sex, seem to have weird outdated ideas about what they should strive towards.

 

So, are you actually talking about people having those opinions and thinking them true, or people making the allusions to them?

 

I'm referring to the people who seem to be saying that those stereotypes are true, and not just true, but righteous. Without putting too fine a point on it, when I see young males express that opinion, I am sad for them, because they're laboring under an idea which is as unhealthy and as incorrect as the unhealthy and incorrect ideas that, for instance, advertisers push on women about body size.

 

Basically, I think it's sad when I see anyone thinking that stereotypes are always true, whatever the stereotype is...

[Kelkelen]

Basically, I think it's sad when I see anyone thinking that stereotypes are always true, whatever the stereotype is...

Quoted.

For.

Truth.

[Rosedamai]

Oh and this btw-

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdeta...fb_ref=activity

 

[TikindiDragon]

*sigh* I think y'all may have misunderstood me. I know I'm not very good at getting this sort of thing across.

 

I'm not saying that women deserve the comments. At all. It's just not nice to put people down like that.

 

That said - human nature is human nature. And I do think it's a little harsh to expect the entire world to completely ignore something when you (generic go) put it on display like that.

 

But that really wasn't the point.

 

The point was trying to understand *whY8 you've all come to the conclusion that it looks/feels good to be wearing that stuff. You might not think about what the original intention, or the implications, of your clothing is. You may just think 'I look good'. What I can't understand is who so many women who self-identify as feminists still decide to 'look good' in a way that pretty much everyone knows is something dictated by society and the media to help objectify them.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to choose to wear things that *don't* feed into that as soon as you realised what was happening?

[Syaoransbear]

The point was trying to understand *whY8 you've all come to the conclusion that it looks/feels good to be wearing that stuff. You might not think about what the original intention, or the implications, of your clothing is. You may just think 'I look good'. What I can't understand is who so many women who self-identify as feminists still decide to 'look good' in a way that pretty much everyone knows is something dictated by society and the media to help objectify them.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to choose to wear things that *don't* feed into that as soon as you realised what was happening?

For most women, out competing other women is more important than reducing the objectification and unreal expectations of all women(instant gratification vs delayed gratification). Women get complimented when they dress like that, and most feel that those compliments and attention are more important than the bigger picture, if they are even aware that a bigger picture exists and is completely based on the actions of all women.

 

Also, I have to wonder if how we dressed would matter to men. If huge sweaters and baggy sweatpants became the next biggest trend in women's fashion, men will probably just find some other body part beyond the obvious ones to be sexually appealing ("OMG that chick's jaw line is soooooo hot"). I mean, I think it's kind of weird that guys like butts. They aren't gender, age, or sexual maturity specific, and poop comes out of there like all the time. Poop.

[Obscure_Trash]

What I can't understand is who so many women who self-identify as feminists still decide to 'look good' in a way that pretty much everyone knows is something dictated by society and the media to help objectify them.

 

I think this really does go back to what everyone was saying. If what you're wearing is for you and it doesn't give other people the right to harass you, then why not wear what you like? If you think you look drop dead sexy in that low cut and short black little number with the highest heels this side of Texas, then why can't you wear that for yourself?

 

If that makes sense. >_e

[Syaoransbear]

To be honest I never believe women who say they dress a certain way or enhance their appearance 'for themselves'. Isn't that kind of sad that a woman has to alter her natural appearance or wear something uncomfortable/unpractical just to please herself?

 

If everyone in the world died except for one trendy woman, I really doubt she would still want plastic surgery, continue to spend an hour on her hair every day, wear make-up, heels, and diet to keep her size 2 figure. She'd likely wear whatever was most comfortable based on the weather and leave everything else up to nature.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[Zovesta]

I wear high heels (not the little spike-ended kinds) and skirts and dresses because I think look good in them, and when I look good, I feel good, because I put effort into how I made myself up that day. Same reason why whenever I go for a three hour walk I feel good about myself. =U

 

Also, butts are sexy. Black women in particular tend to have nice butts, I've noticed. <3 I don't know why rears are attractive, but they are. I can totally see the "hot jawline" thing happening.

[Zaxian]

To be honest I never believe women who say they dress a certain way or enhance their appearance 'for themselves'. Isn't that kind of sad that a woman has to alter her natural appearance or wear something uncomfortable/unpractical just to please herself?

 

Whilst I agree with you in part, I think it's important to be clear on what women may mean by 'for themselves' - I think in a lot of cases, they really mean 'to make themselves feel good, in the context of the current social trends and for a higher social status', and not strictly 'for their own physical comfort'.

 

(I'm not going to tackle the issue of whether it ought to be the case that women (or men) should have to dress in particular ways to feel that they 'look good' - I think we'd agree that in a perfect society they wouldn't.)

 

... continue to spend an hour on her hair every day...

 

Were I the only woman around, I know I'd sure as heck just chop the whole lot off. I like my hair, but it's a pain in butt to maintain and if it wasn't for the fact that a) I'd regularly be mistaken for a boy, or at the very least, a lesbian - particularly with what I normally wear and I expect my current boyfriend wouldn't be very impressed*, I'd get the whole lot cut off in favour of something short and easy to maintain.

 

*(note that I'd also not be very impressed were he to shave or stop maintaining his (neatly-trimmed) beard, etc etc)

 

What I can't understand is who so many women who self-identify as feminists still decide to 'look good' in a way that pretty much everyone knows is something dictated by society and the media to help objectify them.

 

I find it's often surprisingly difficult to dress 'differently', simply because of the lack of availability of alternative styles of womens' clothing in shops. For example, I prefer to wear black combat-style trousers* rather than jeans and currently none of the clothes shops in the area stock black combats for women (though frustratingly they do stock them in blue, pink or white!). Most recently I've resorted to buying them off the internet where there's more selection (and I'd really rather not do that - I like to try on clothes before I buy them).

 

*(also known as combats / cargos / cargo pants)

[WereJace]

I think this really does go back to what everyone was saying. If what you're wearing is for you and it doesn't give other people the right to harass you, then why not wear what you like? If you think you look drop dead sexy in that low cut and short black little number with the highest heels this side of Texas, then why can't you wear that for yourself?

 

If that makes sense. >_e

This is exactly right. While clothing choice can be a conscious decision made to combat patriarchy, that's up to the individual woman. It often doesn't seem to matter what a woman's wearing when men decide to harass or intimidate her (coveralls, short shorts, burka, bikini).

 

You can ask the same question, I suppose, of women entering into any nominally patriarchy-approved role-women who choose not to work and instead be housewives, women who choose motherhood over career-but if she's made the decision on her own, that's good enough for me.

[Ripan]

Might have been said already, but stating the obvious anyway:

It's freedom to be able to dress however you want.

[Sadako]

Tikindi, I understand that you weren't condoning harassment because of the way women dress or anything, it's just that some people who ask that question seem to feel that way, and I thought it was worth pointing out that that attitude is baffling to me.

 

The thing is, the clothes I wear aren't uncomfortable or revealing, they're actually what I am most comfortable wearing. I don't choose them for how they look to other people, I choose them for how I feel in them, or for how they look to me. I don't think there's anything at all wrong or unhealthy about liking the way I look and feel in certain types of clothing--society thinks a cute girl in a nice outfit looks good and honestly the cute girls are part of society too so we share that opinion. To suggest that I should specifically not wear the clothes I like to wear because they look good on me, or to suggest that I choose to look good as a way to participate in my own objectification is just... way off the mark. Looking tidy and wearing garments which society thinks are nice is what normal humans do, not just what sex objects do.

 

I can't explain it except maybe to make a comparison to the way men dress. I know some women who would be thrilled if all men wore kilts all the time; that doesn't mean the men who wear kilts are wearing them specifically to get attention from that type of woman. Maybe they're connecting with their heritage, maybe they're on the way to a funeral, maybe they just like the way their legs look in those sweet little stockings. That's a decision that is left up to the man in question; it ought to be the same for women who decide to wear tight jeans, or, for that matter, corsets.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Sadako

[Princess Artemis]

Wouldn't it make more sense to choose to wear things that *don't* feed into that as soon as you realised what was happening?

It may. Some do. Some make a point of eschewing every bit of clothing and activity that is pressed upon them from outside. So they don't shave, wear bras, or wear makeup.

 

Others realize what's going on, look down at their baggy clothes assigned to them by church elders who think that covering up is their moral duty so the men won't look at them and say, this is about choice! and choose to wear what they want. Which happens to be tight pants and low-cut shirts which they now refuse to see as demeaning and sinful.

 

Or decide they like those clothes for whatever reason and choose to wear them. Nothing which can be discerned from looking at them on the street, being as they are individuals.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[AngelKitty]

What I can't understand is who so many women who self-identify as feminists still decide to 'look good' in a way that pretty much everyone knows is something dictated by society and the media to help objectify them.

 

There's nothing wrong with dressing how you like, whether it's "fashionable" dress or "combating patriarchy" dress. I like wearing stuff that shows off my best features. Wearing low-cut blouses and Daisy Dukes because I find them fun, cute and sexy doesn't make me any less of a feminist and I kind of resent the suggestion that it does.

[elderberrysyrup]

I think the main issue is a misunderstanding. To some people, it's hypocritical to wear clothes that are 'feminine' and at the same time claim to be a feminist. I think it puts some blame on the woman for dressing a certain manner, when the person reacting to objectifying them is given less fault. I think what's happening is some people are putting blame on the woman for causing the reactions of a man, rather than putting the blame on the man for reacting in that manner. Whether or not a woman should be blamed for the reactions of others is argued a lot. In the extremes, it's a reasoning for rape (she dressed that way and was asking for it), and in moderate ones, it's a fashion statement meant to get a rile out of people for a cause (meat dress from lady gaga).

[Sadako]

Lol, I'd call meat-dress pretty extreme.

 

Great point, though. I've come across the idea that men can't control their reactions to women before, that the onus is on the woman to dress as conservatively as possible so that men will not be tempted to do bad things, which, of course, are not their fault because, as we all know, lust or even the suggestion of something that might cause lust drives all men instantly and irretrievably insane.

 

This is the entirely logical and believable justification given by some people for forcing women to wear veils that cover their entire identities.

 

...hmmm.

[elderberrysyrup]

Well okay, it's used as an extreme in another manner then... But I digress... I'm not saying that a woman should feel free to run around in the nude and expect people not to notice or mind. I'm also not saying that it's entirely a guy's fault for noticing that a woman's cleavage is all hanging out there. I'm saying that the perception that that way of dressing is intrinsically sexual, and the therefore jump that women are objectifying themselves or allowing other men to objectify them because they dress in a manner is something that seems to be the main issue of the discussion...

 

(Personally I believe the fault is in the perception of objectification in clothes, that is to say a rather interesting logical jump that 'woman dressing a certain way = objectification'.)

[Fuzzbucket]

Strangely enough, if you go to a naturist beach in a sensible country that doesn't freak out about such things, no-one looks twice at anyone's bits.

 

I have camped at naturist campsites - and to give you an example - one day we were going into town (so clearly had clothes on.) and another UK person saw our car licence plates and came over to ask about how we had insured it for Bosnia, and things - ad we exchanged info quite cheerfully; he turned out to be a civil servant - quite senior; he must have been in his late 50s.

 

It wasn't until we were half way into town that it actually occurred to use that we had been cheerfully chatting to a stark naked person FAR senior to us in life, and hadn't even noticed. The same kind of thing happened in the bar at night - we'd talk to other naked people of all ages without noticing their appearance at all.

 

What seems to happen is that men (for it is usually men) can't seem to take the thought of sex out of their everyday lives unless everyone has no clothes on at all. I don't know what can be done about that.

Edited March 29, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Princess Artemis]

Similar things can occur in the US in a life drawing class. There isn't anything in the least bit sexual inherent in nudity.

 

Doesn't mean no one checked out the models; just means they had other things on their mind as well. They see, this model is very nice to look at, s/he is rather attractive...time to draw. Or this model is rather ugly, s/he has very interesting shapes to draw.

 

Seems to me it might be an issue, partly, of having more thoughts than sex? If people can behave like civilized humans around stark naked, beautiful life-drawing models, they ought to be able to behave in any other situation.

 

(Note I'm saying people!)

[TikindiDragon]

I think this really does go back to what everyone was saying. If what you're wearing is for you and it doesn't give other people the right to harass you, then why not wear what you like? If you think you look drop dead sexy in that low cut and short black little number with the highest heels this side of Texas, then why can't you wear that for yourself?

 

If that makes sense. >_e

I am trying to get my head around understanding all of this. And thanks guys for your patience in trying to help someone that's a little slow on the uptake

 

Although I would point out here that erections aren't exactly controlable things. Just ask any teenage guy wether or not the always *want* their body to react the way it does and (if they'll actually answer the question at all) I'll bet they tell you they don't. I admit there is the choice of *acting* on it or not (not being the right choice there!), but I wouldn't say having the reaction in the first place can be considered a matter of 'fault' as it's not something that can be controlled.

 

Note - this is not an excuse for *acting* upon the initial reaction. An erection does not completely wipe out one's reasoning capabilities. But, well, men actualy *can't* help getting them.

 

W/regards the clothes discussion... I guess what I'm asking is more why you feel you look good in them in the first place. I'm completely down with the idea of wearing things because you like the way you look in them - it's just the why of liking the way you look in clothes designed to be objectifying I can't quite get.

 

<- still more than a little clueless

[elderberrysyrup]

W/regards the clothes discussion... I guess what I'm asking is more why you feel you look good in them in the first place. I'm completely down with the idea of wearing things because you like the way you look in them - it's just the why of liking the way you look in clothes designed to be objectifying I can't quite get.

 

<- still more than a little clueless

I believe the misunderstanding is a different perception of what the meaning of the clothing is. I don't think the majority of women putting on the clothes thinks 'I'm going to dehumanize myself today! Hell yeah!' because they don't see putting on certain clothes makes them an object or allows people to objectify them. Because you (I'm not trying to be aggressive here mind you) perceive these clothes to be used for objectification (truth or not), it you it seems like women are putting on clothes made to objectify women. However, many women put on clothes and don't perceive the clothing as an article of objectification, so it's generally a nonissue to them.

 

Does this make more sense?

 

EDIT: I understand and empathize with your confusion. I'm not exactly human-saavy either, being the recluse that I am. All I can do is speculate.

Edited March 29, 2012 by soullesshuman

[TikindiDragon]

I believe the misunderstanding is a different perception of what the meaning of the clothing is. I don't think the majority of women putting on the clothes thinks 'I'm going to dehumanize myself today! Hell yeah!' because they don't see putting on certain clothes makes them an object or allows people to objectify them. Because you (I'm not trying to be aggressive here mind you) perceive these clothes to be used for objectification (truth or not), it you it seems like women are putting on clothes made to objectify women. However, many women put on clothes and don't perceive the clothing as an article of objectification, so it's generally a nonissue to them.

 

Does this make more sense?

 

EDIT: I understand and empathize with your confusion. I'm not exactly human-saavy either, being the recluse that I am. All I can do is speculate.

Well yeah. That does make some sense. The only probelm is I was under the impression that the fashion industry, and thus current fashion trends, are seen as examples of objectification. So I find it hard to see how currently fashionable clothing doesn't fall into the same category...

[Princess Artemis]

Note - this is not an excuse for *acting* upon the initial reaction. An erection does not completely wipe out one's reasoning capabilities. But, well, men actualy *can't* help getting them.

 

W/regards the clothes discussion... I guess what I'm asking is more why you feel you look good in them in the first place. I'm completely down with the idea of wearing things because you like the way you look in them - it's just the why of liking the way you look in clothes designed to be objectifying I can't quite get.

 

<- still more than a little clueless

I believe we can all agree on that. Women can't control their biological reactions either; no one's suggesting that be controlled. It's everything after that that matters.

 

Being a woman who doesn't particularly care for fashion, I can't answer for anyone else why they think they look good in any sort of clothes. I like the way my feet look in cowboy boots just because I like the way my feet look in cowboy boots. So I have a pair of cowboy boots and wear them frequently. That's the only answer I can give for that. Other people have other answers.

 

Not all clothes that are revealing or tight are designed to be objectifying though. Some are, not all are.

[Sadako]

W/regards the clothes discussion... I guess what I'm asking is more why you feel you look good in them in the first place. I'm completely down with the idea of wearing things because you like the way you look in them - it's just the why of liking the way you look in clothes designed to be objectifying I can't quite get.

 

Aha! I think I get it! They're not designed to be objectifying, they're sometimes perceived to be objectifying.

 

Okay, so what is the difference between clothes that make the person wearing them look good and clothes that are objectifying and insulting to the person wearing them? The mindset of the person wearing them is the only difference.

 

When I was younger, my mother always wanted me to wear (for formal occasions) dresses that were like a miniature or a younger version of what she was wearing. I hated this, and it made me feel like she wanted to use me as a fashion accessory. The dresses were perfectly normal conservative little-girl dresses (and later teenager dresses) and my own mother picked them out, so there was nothing inherently risque or objectifying about them, but the fact that someone else put me in that dress for their purposes made it feel, to me, like I was being objectified. If I had chosen those dresses it would have been an entirely different matter and I would have liked the way I looked in them, for my own sake. Having a choice in the matter would have taken away the sting of objectification.

 

If I may bring up corsets again, the people who participate in that kind of thing are there because they want to be there. The girls are all there because they have an aesthetic appreciation for historical garb or cosplay. I put on a corset because I like it and I like it because it looks good. The criteria for clothing being objectifying is not that it looks good on someone. It is only objectifying if the person wearing it feels objectified.

 

I feel like a small minority got butthurt over certain types of fashion being 'objectifying' and now there's this weird perception of all women railing against all of their clothes and wearing them anyway. But there are enough women who design and make clothes that I just don't buy that (for instance I can point you to dozens of etsy shops and such owned by hot young women who design, sew, and sell sexy lingerie and costumes-because they want to and they think it looks good). Does that mean all women are brainwashed into objectifying themselves without even knowing it? Eh, I don't really think so. I think some clothes look good, some clothes look good with sexual overtones, and I think some people who aren't comfortable with looking sexy and being admired for it sometimes put on the wrong outfit and get a little oversensitive about the reactions.