Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Not really, I imagined it, I got pissed coz of it and then I found both a solution and an opportunity within the new world order, not as a man but as a business oriented person, if you think that a woman in the business sector cant push a certain potential product forward coz she's a woman then you're mistaken, I dont know what's your background but I promise you that in the business world as it is today, woman/man/alien brings forward a potential money making idea... there is no gender no religion and only one color matters - green.... Alright. Wish you'd said it that way before. So you got angry: Now multiply that anger by your entire life, and add in a whole world not giving a flying rodent's behind that you're angry, telling you that's just how it is, suck it up already, you're too sensitive, it's not a big deal, find something more important to think about, it's not for you anyway so why do you care. Maybe that doesn't bother you, maybe it does: one thing is for sure though--nothing is changing. And multiply it by your solution not working. Because, guess what? Sexism exists. There is a gender connected to the green. They do care. That's the point. It doesn't change just because you think you found a solution. It doesn't change. That's what I'm trying to get you to glimpse here: We, as women, have tried it that way and it didn't work because the world in many respects only cares about pleasing men. A man's money is the only money it sees. If it saw my money, it would stop telling me the things I buy or wish to buy are not for me because I had the misfortune of being born without a penis. It's been telling me that for nearly forty years. You think women haven't had any money to spend for that long? There's something else other than money involved obviously. Edited March 23, 2012 by Princess Artemis Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 there is no gender no religion and only one color matters - green.... Purple! Sorry, obscure Bab5 reference. To keep myself rather more on-topic: I'm female-bodied. Born that way, had people doing their damndest to make me a girl my entire life. And yet... I gotta say I can't see what's bothering most of you ladies posting on here. Some of it, yes, I can see (the rape thing for one). But this whole discussion about comic book character has just been making me go "Really...!?" Maybe it's the male-brain thing going on. That might be what it is here. The way the male brain (my brain) works means than men really can't see what it is that's bothering you, even when put into the same position (which, technicaly, I am). Did any of that make sens? My batteries are so low at the moment I'm permanently half-asleep. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 All I said is, every minority goes through that every day, analyzing the little things harms nobody but you, making you more sad/angry, choose your battles, The problem is not the little things its the society's attitude that needs to change, including the one women have I honestly... Are you disagreeing with me, agreeing me, or discussing something different? We keep pointing out that we are picking out our battles - we have to because of all the misogyny around. Plugging my ears and just singing 'la, la, la, la' and ignoring problems facing me isn't my style. The issue at hand as I was discussing it is, sexism is a serious problem, by talking about the small stuff you're taking this huge problem into the "gutter" and offending people, I'll explain, your point of view is a Western one, I've been to 50 more or less countries and sexism/racism in some of the places is something you cant even comprehend, there are a whole lot of users around this forum who are deeply offended by the way this thread is being run, One girl says general discussion is not a general discussion but instead its a Western discussion, the other girl says people in general discussion dont understand that there is a world outside their backyard thats nothing like the one they live in, I got into this thread coz a girl from India said she's read this thread and felt like screaming, coz the things you guys are discussing are offensive to her as your "biggest" problems would be like her dreams coming true, people from non-western countries are scared of getting into the general discussion as according to them there is no place for their views in here,,,, Their words, you guys did that to them... The little things are the cause, the underlying problem, of the big things. If we do not change the little things, we have no hope of changing the big things. We should work on fixing the problem, not just the consequences. Do you have the right to rant about door opening ? Yes you do, coz "the smallest of my problems is bigger than the biggest problems of the world" but keep in mind that you are offending a lot of people by concentrating on certain aspects coz the life you live is 10000000 light years away from lives they live. Says who? These so-called "small things" (that, may I add, are not directed in offending you but are directed towards offending me every single day) are problems. Ignoring them makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to discuss another issue, please bring it up. Continuing to tell me I don't have the right to be offended over something offensive isn't okay, though. take this anology - Pro (black) football player said 2-3 years ago that he is the new "modern slave" (dude makes 100 mill per 4 seasons)... in the world there are 40 mill slaves (actual slaves), blacks in Africa die of starvation, blacks in other countries get treated like dogs and the dude who can buy whatever he wants and gets paid silly money for playing the game he loves, is the "slave"... Offensive as hell IMO I agree that we shouldn't use such strong words for situations to decrease their meaning. Grammar Nazi, for example, is a term that makes me uncomfortable because of the serious of Nazis and the difference in level of seriousness of correcting someone's grammar. I'm unsure what you're comparing this situation to, though. What word have we used that you find offensive to use? Just because there are starving children in Africa does not mean that smaller problems here don't deserve our attention. A big problem does not negate all the smaller ones. Like I said, feel free to express yourself any way you want, Im merely trying to get you to see that there is another POV here, and that people from non-western countries can bring this discussion to a whole new level, but somehow you guys got them scared, which is pretty much the way men got them feeling in their own countries... Ylangylang is the only non-westerner who dared say something and if you read her post, it looks like she's walking on glass while posting.. Or this forum is English speaking, users don't want to discuss it here in addition to what they face elsewhere, they don't even frequent GD, etc. These problems are more likely to be things that people in primarily English speaking countries are likely to face. Ylangylang hasn't read as if she's walking on glass to me. And I love that she's posting. She's educated me on some issues I wasn't completely aware of and her posts are always refreshing to me. She seems very passionate and I can tell she cares about her rights and that the issues bother her. I don't believe anyone here has tried to force her to not share her opinion, and if they have, then she (or you, if that's what you're seeing) should be reporting it! That part wasnt me apologizing : Im sorry, I had no idea you might feel that way, I just think its rude to close the door in someones face, - Explaining my actions and why I do it, makes it clear I didnt mean to offend you in any way. apologizing part : if I have offended you I apologize, it wasnt my intention" - apologizing for it, nothing false about that IMO.... But that's not what apologies are for. That's what excuses are for. If you examine the situation and still cannot see where the person was coming from, okay. But they were offended, and if your actions were truly harmless, why are you offering excuses? Apologize and move on. "I think it's rude to close a door in someone's face" implies that the person you are apologizing to is in the wrong, which is not an apology. Let's go back to your analogy of the pro-football player. Say you had the chance, and you told him that his use of slave offended you, as you felt he was taking away from the meaning of the word and since slavery is still an issue, we shouldn't be demoralizing the issue in that way. If he said "I apologize, I did not mean to offend, I just think it's wrong to treat me like a slave. I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend" would you accept this as a valid apology? He has ignored what you find offensive, repeated how he was right, and stuck "I'm sorry" in his sentence in a seemingly sarcastic way. Now if he said "I apologize, I didn't realize. I didn't mean to offend, I'll keep this in mind," wouldn't that be better? So instead of "I'm sorry if I offended you, I just think it's rude to close a door in someone's face," a better apology would be along the lines of "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I didn't even realize how my actions were coming across." I do experience way more extreme forms of sexism every single day. But, I don't come here and get offended just because some people focus on the smaller issues. To explain, I live in a country where if you get sexually harassed, the cops ask the girl what you were wearing. I live in a country where the ministry of health defined single mothers as basically uneducated prostitutes up to about a few years ago. I live in a country where CEOs publicly talk about not hiring women. I live in a country where you have to attach your photos to your job resume, and plastic surgery is considered an asset so that you look better in order to get a job. All of these are blatantly sexist. I just... *hugs* It's so inspiring that there are women like who you aren't afraid to speak up about these things. These are despicable acts and it's really unbelievable to me how things like this can blatantly go on and just be okay. These really don't get much attention over here in the US. Makes me want to go find a more international feminism source, as the ones I read are more USA-based. Edit : Kelkelen, nowhere has it been stated.... "girl" or "woman" = "weak, inferior person lacking in positive traits of maturity" in the common parlance of the world. Furthermore, its much more common to associate childish with a man, maturity is actually one of the positive "female" traits, as opposed to those of us guys who are just big babies... In a similar manner, dirty, messy, unthoughtful, hasty or tons of others negative traits can be asociated with men... its never one is good or other bad, it always depends on the context in which its used.... I'm not sure where you're not understanding that our language has all sorts of ways to continually demean women or anything feminine and put men and masculinity on a pedestal. Doing something like a girl signifies that you are not good enough - you are doing something weakly and suck at it. The worst insults are: female dog, woman's private area (a few in this category), cigarette butt, or gay (which implies like a woman and not like a man). Ie, being a woman is the worst thing ever and you should strive to not be like women. People are told to grow a pair, man up, etc. All things signifying the strength of men. When our language constantly demeans women and implies that men are better? There is a problem. =\ You fight like a guy You throw like a guy You run like a guy whatever like a guy Those are not compliments, nothing positive in any of them... If you view those as compliments... I really dont know what to say to that... I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever heard these phrases anywhere. Kelkelen, maybe girls below 20 do think its positive when they're compared to guys, I however know plenty of women over 20, successful, independent, strong smart women, not one of them would see it as a compliment to be called a guy in any aspect of things, real women are proud of them being women and wouldnt want it any other way, real men are the same way... We should all be able to be proud of who we are. We should not have to "be a man" to be respected. I found this post about childbirth if anyone is interested: http://1001thingstobethankfulfor.wordpress...010/10/14/0117/ Maybe that could be the reason why some women would prefer pregnacy pains over kidney stones... I can imagine that it is nearly the same pain having kidney stones, cause my dad had some and I swear I never saw him crying, but that day he cried due to them. That was pretty interesting, thanks for sharing! I've read tons of things on how people have said pregnancy hurts less (from women who have been pregnant and have had kidney stones) than kidney stones. I wonder if they've forgotten the pain, had kidney stones during their pregnancy, etc.? Not really, I imagined it, I got pissed coz of it and then I found both a solution and an opportunity within the new world order, not as a man but as a business oriented person, if you think that a woman in the business sector cant push a certain potential product forward coz she's a woman then you're mistaken, I dont know what's your background but I promise you that in the business world as it is today, woman/man/alien brings forward a potential money making idea... there is no gender no religion and only one color matters - green.... Cutting out half of the population doesn't seem like a smart economic move to me. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Tikindi, it makes sense. Not everyone sees the same things, though I don't think it's necessarily got to do with female-brains. I dunno, maybe it does...having a male-brain might make it harder for you to appreciate in the same way what it feels like to grow up seeing people with female bodies being distorted and objectified and turned into sexual possessions constantly, because your body and brain have a very real disconnect going on. I hope I'm not completely talking out of my backside here. Swat me if I am. It seriously bugged me growing up that so, so, so many of the things I enjoyed I was told by what seemed like the whole world (other than my parents) that they were not for me. Didn't it bug you? It bugs me now that a lot of the things I enjoy, at 37, are still the same, with my added ability to see the broken blow-up dolls they use as a stand-in for women. I'd like to see it change so more little girls can grow up feeling like they belong in the world, that they aren't objects to be possessed. Talking about comic book and video game imagery is part of that. Not all of it, but part of it. ETA: You fight like a guy You throw like a guy You run like a guy whatever like a guy Those are not compliments, nothing positive in any of them... If you view those as compliments... I really dont know what to say to that... I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever heard these phrases anywhere. I've heard them very rarely in my life, though I don't think directed at me. It carried the meaning of: "You don't look feminine the way you are doing X". Not compliments for sure, with the idea that the persons being told this that they should conform to gender stereotypes. Though, actually, "fight like a guy" would be a compliment. It would mean "fight with honor", because "fight like a girl" means fight dirty. Edited March 23, 2012 by Princess Artemis Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Tikindi, it makes sense. Not everyone sees the same things, though I don't think it's necessarily got to do with female-brains. I dunno, maybe it does...having a male-brain might make it harder for you to appreciate in the same way what it feels like to grow up seeing people with female bodies being distorted and objectified and turned into sexual possessions constantly, because your body and brain have a very real disconnect going on. I hope I'm not completely talking out of my backside here. Swat me if I am. It seriously bugged me growing up that so, so, so many of the things I enjoyed I was told by what seemed like the whole world (other than my parents) that they were not for me. Didn't it bug you? It bugs me now that a lot of the things I enjoy, at 37, are still the same, with my added ability to see the broken blow-up dolls they use as a stand-in for women. I'd like to see it change so more little girls can grow up feeling like they belong in the world, that they aren't objects to be possessed. Talking about comic book and video game imagery is part of that. Not all of it, but part of it. Yeah, that did bug me. Still does when some poeple (thankfully not those close to me) seem to think I ought to wear jewlery and dresses . Although, to me, that was more because I felt I *wasn't* a girl, rather than because I had any realy problem with the idea that that's what girls were. My sister was one of those girly-girls, and she's always seemed perfectly happy *shrugs* Yeah, I can see that there are some things that need to change. I never said I didn't. I'll be honest, though, and say I can't that there's really all that much of the world around me that's profoundly sexist. And this is coming from a trans-man that isn't out in the workplace. You'd think I should get a lot of it (because I do wear male clothes, no makeup, and no jewlery), but I don't. And I'm afraid I certainly can't see the overwhelming amounts of conditioning to make women feel like objects that you guys (or gals if you prefer) seem to think are out there. I can see you're passionate about it - I just completely fail to see what it is you're being passionate about, or why some of the things you're passionate about could possibly be a problem (and, for the record, explaining it to me, even repeatedly, isn't likely to help that. It just seems to be one of those concepts my mind won't grasp.) Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Yeah, that did bug me. Still does when some poeple (thankfully not those close to me) seem to think I ought to wear jewlery and dresses . Although, to me, that was more because I felt I *wasn't* a girl, rather than because I had any realy problem with the idea that that's what girls were. My sister was one of those girly-girls, and she's always seemed perfectly happy *shrugs* Yeah, I can see that there are some things that need to change. I never said I didn't. I'll be honest, though, and say I can't that there's really all that much of the world around me that's profoundly sexist. And this is coming from a trans-man that isn't out in the workplace. You'd think I should get a lot of it (because I do wear male clothes, no makeup, and no jewlery), but I don't. And I'm afraid I certainly can't see the overwhelming amounts of conditioning to make women feel like objects that you guys (or gals if you prefer) seem to think are out there. I can see you're passionate about it - I just completely fail to see what it is you're being passionate about, or why some of the things you're passionate about could possibly be a problem (and, for the record, explaining it to me, even repeatedly, isn't likely to help that. It just seems to be one of those concepts my mind won't grasp.) I don't have a problem with 'girly-girls' and that being a thing--my sister was and is a whole lot more than I am. I had and have a problem with that being the only thing. It gets less and less 'the only thing' as time goes on; that's because people fight so hard to make room for themselves and those yet to come. As long as you aren't saying that it doesn't exist just because you can't see it, we're good. It doesn't sound like that's what you're saying, so it's fine. I'm glad you don't run into it much in your life. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Yeah, I can see that there are some things that need to change. I never said I didn't. I'll be honest, though, and say I can't that there's really all that much of the world around me that's profoundly sexist. And this is coming from a trans-man that isn't out in the workplace. You'd think I should get a lot of it (because I do wear male clothes, no makeup, and no jewlery), but I don't. And I'm afraid I certainly can't see the overwhelming amounts of conditioning to make women feel like objects that you guys (or gals if you prefer) seem to think are out there. I can see you're passionate about it - I just completely fail to see what it is you're being passionate about, or why some of the things you're passionate about could possibly be a problem (and, for the record, explaining it to me, even repeatedly, isn't likely to help that. It just seems to be one of those concepts my mind won't grasp.) *shrug* We all care about different things. I think that diversity is great. I mean, I mentioned above about the 'female dog word'. I have found that word sexist since I started paying attention and kids started using "female dog" as an insult around the playground to avoid getting in trouble with teachers for cussing. That was around fourth grade. I can really remember in great clarity how angry it immediately made me and how I didn't like people using it. On the other hand, I have a friend who definitely strays towards the extremist end of feminism. She absolutely disagrees with me and things that "some people are just 'female dogs'". People are going to find different things offensive. I think the most important thing is how we react when someone tells us they find some action we did or said offensive. That doesn't mean you have to completely change everything about you, but my friend for example, can try to refrain using that word around me, even if she doesn't stop using it in her life. I have no problem if people can't see sexism in things like that when I do, as long as they don't tell me I'm wrong. It's how I feel and that's how they feel. If you don't find something like that (for example, 'female dog' as compared to an issue like rape) sexist or wrong, I respect that. I won't say your wrong. I'll only repeat myself over and over again if you want to debate about it or are disagreeing with me. People sharing opinions is fine. o3o I've heard them very rarely in my life, though I don't think directed at me. It carried the meaning of: "You don't look feminine the way you are doing X". Not compliments for sure, with the idea that the persons being told this that they should conform to gender stereotypes. Huh. You learn something new every day. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 As long as you aren't saying that it doesn't exist just because you can't see it, we're good. It doesn't sound like that's what you're saying, so it's fine. I'm glad you don't run into it much in your life. Does it makes sense if I say I understand that something is upsetting you, and it makes me a sad bunny that something is upsetting you, but I just haven't got the foggiest clue *why* you're getting so upset? If I can make a Star Trek reference - there was a race Captain Picard encountered that found eating in public to be abhorrantly impolite, rather akin to have sex in the middle of a busy street. He understood *what* was upsetting them (eventualy, anyway), but the mid-set was so different to his world view that he couldn't really have understood, and empathised with, their feelings on the matter. That's rather where I stand with this. I can see that something is bothering y'all but it just makes no sense to me whatsoever. I think you might find that rather a lot of males come from the same place I am. We don't like that you're being distressed by something, but we just can't comprehend *why* you're getting so distressed (and, as I said, I'm probably in a unique position to try and look at what you're getting at with a male mind. Still doesn't connect.) Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) I honestly... Are you disagreeing with me, agreeing me, or discussing something different? We keep pointing out that we are picking out our battles - we have to because of all the misogyny around. Plugging my ears and just singing 'la, la, la, la' and ignoring problems facing me isn't my style. The little things are the cause, the underlying problem, of the big things. If we do not change the little things, we have no hope of changing the big things. We should work on fixing the problem, not just the consequences. Says who? These so-called "small things" (that, may I add, are not directed in offending you but are directed towards offending me every single day) are problems. Ignoring them makes no sense whatsoever. If you want to discuss another issue, please bring it up. Continuing to tell me I don't have the right to be offended over something offensive isn't okay, though. I agree that we shouldn't use such strong words for situations to decrease their meaning. Grammar Nazi, for example, is a term that makes me uncomfortable because of the serious of Nazis and the difference in level of seriousness of correcting someone's grammar. I'm unsure what you're comparing this situation to, though. What word have we used that you find offensive to use? Just because there are starving children in Africa does not mean that smaller problems here don't deserve our attention. A big problem does not negate all the smaller ones. Or this forum is English speaking, users don't want to discuss it here in addition to what they face elsewhere, they don't even frequent GD, etc. These problems are more likely to be things that people in primarily English speaking countries are likely to face. Ylangylang hasn't read as if she's walking on glass to me. And I love that she's posting. She's educated me on some issues I wasn't completely aware of and her posts are always refreshing to me. She seems very passionate and I can tell she cares about her rights and that the issues bother her. I don't believe anyone here has tried to force her to not share her opinion, and if they have, then she (or you, if that's what you're seeing) should be reporting it! But that's not what apologies are for. That's what excuses are for. If you examine the situation and still cannot see where the person was coming from, okay. But they were offended, and if your actions were truly harmless, why are you offering excuses? Apologize and move on. "I think it's rude to close a door in someone's face" implies that the person you are apologizing to is in the wrong, which is not an apology. Let's go back to your analogy of the pro-football player. Say you had the chance, and you told him that his use of slave offended you, as you felt he was taking away from the meaning of the word and since slavery is still an issue, we shouldn't be demoralizing the issue in that way. If he said "I apologize, I did not mean to offend, I just think it's wrong to treat me like a slave. I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend" would you accept this as a valid apology? He has ignored what you find offensive, repeated how he was right, and stuck "I'm sorry" in his sentence in a seemingly sarcastic way. Now if he said "I apologize, I didn't realize. I didn't mean to offend, I'll keep this in mind," wouldn't that be better? So instead of "I'm sorry if I offended you, I just think it's rude to close a door in someone's face," a better apology would be along the lines of "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I didn't even realize how my actions were coming across." I just... *hugs* It's so inspiring that there are women like who you aren't afraid to speak up about these things. These are despicable acts and it's really unbelievable to me how things like this can blatantly go on and just be okay. These really don't get much attention over here in the US. Makes me want to go find a more international feminism source, as the ones I read are more USA-based. I'm not sure where you're not understanding that our language has all sorts of ways to continually demean women or anything feminine and put men and masculinity on a pedestal. Doing something like a girl signifies that you are not good enough - you are doing something weakly and suck at it. The worst insults are: female dog, woman's private area (a few in this category), cigarette butt, or gay (which implies like a woman and not like a man). Ie, being a woman is the worst thing ever and you should strive to not be like women. People are told to grow a pair, man up, etc. All things signifying the strength of men. When our language constantly demeans women and implies that men are better? There is a problem. =\ I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever heard these phrases anywhere. We should all be able to be proud of who we are. We should not have to "be a man" to be respected. That was pretty interesting, thanks for sharing! I've read tons of things on how people have said pregnancy hurts less (from women who have been pregnant and have had kidney stones) than kidney stones. I wonder if they've forgotten the pain, had kidney stones during their pregnancy, etc.? Cutting out half of the population doesn't seem like a smart economic move to me. Emm.. ok. Aplogy... How it works in my subjective world You say what you did was... then I step 1 - hear what you have to say and understand where you're coming from step 2 - absorb it step 3 - explain myself and why did I do what I did, allowing you to understand my side as well as unedrstand that there was no malicious intent step 4 - offer an apology What you think is better is You say what you did was... then I step 1 - ok, I apologize, turn around and keep moving.... Maybe your way is better for many people, but to me it looks like Im saying sorry just to get you off my back, to me an apology is something that should be sincere, one must actually stop and understand as well as mean it, for it to count.... Just me though and regarding the pro player I would be cool with this Its just that we have owners, we are told what to eat and when to eat and sometimes I feel as if I were the modern slave who jumps when he's told to, when you say it like that I do understand your side, I guess I chose the wrong word, I didnt mean to offend anybody and I apologize to all those who got offended.... Slightly longer coz it was in front of the media and all FYI, Cutting out half of the population indeed isnt a smart economic move, most of the time we cut 90% of the population, its called niche marketing, you focus on one group of people instead of trying to be for everybody, not many products out there are intended for everybody... Ok, I'll keep throwing new discussions your way.... 1 - Girl A and girl B are sitting talking, I sit with them, they're badmouthing girl C, Im looking and thinking to myself (wait arent they friends?), 5 minutes go by, girl C comes along, Im thinking holly... WWIII is about to begin... Smiles, kisses, hugs, all three sit down and start talking about who knows what (Im sitting slightly confused), girl B has to leave to do something, 30 seconds go by, girls A and C start bad mouthing girl B Where is it problematic in real world, women get promoted to higher ranking positions and then instead of helping other women out, they do the opposite, keeping others down... Discuss the phenomena, explain it, speak your mind.... Edited March 23, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Yes, that makes sense, Tikindi. It's a very Tikindi way of saying it, too. If that is the case, though, and the best that many men can do is be baffled about the deep reasons of why but do see the what, and connect the two, then I can reasonably expect those men, if they have respect for the people they see upset, to help stop what's upsetting even if they don't or can't understand the deep down whys. That's just being good to one another. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Ok, I'll keep throwing new discussions your way.... 1 - Girl A and girl B are sitting talking, I sit with them, they're badmouthing girl C, Im looking and thinking to myself (wait arent they friends?), 5 minutes go by, girl C comes along, Im thinking holly... WWIII is about to begin... Smiles, kisses, hugs, all three sit down and start talking about who knows what (Im sitting slightly confused), girl B has to leave to do something, 30 seconds go by, girls A and C start bad mouthing girl B Where is it problematic in real world, women get promoted to higher ranking positions and then instead of helping other women out, they do the opposite, keeping others down... Discuss the phenomena, explain it, speak your mind.... All one can say about that is - I've seen that happen with boys - and also with ADULT men - including in my workplace. What's your point there ? And men keep other men down too. Dog eat dog world for everyone. To me it's sexist that you seem to think only women do that. Ain't true. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 Though, actually, "fight like a guy" would be a compliment. It would mean "fight with honor", because "fight like a girl" means fight dirty. Not sure, but somehow true. I shall always attack another guy, no problem... But attack a girl\woman\female? No, thanks! Because I like to live so far... But most of the times, girls could more honourable in more things than guys. I think we guys usually think everything as a game and so did not take it seriously... Big, big, big mistake. But arguing against any gender is futile. Think someone is less\more because of it's gender? Both gender has fields of life what could be better than the other and that is the point: the two genders complement each others. Not say they are equals because biologically and evolutionally females are more developed, but... In everyday life sexism is a sign of utterly obsolate thinking methods. Something that must have been faded away already at the dawn of the 21th. century... I think, education should be teach already that both genders are equal. Teachers should not say such things (nor parents, to be say that) like "You do this or that like a X\Y!" Pointless. Obsolate. But sad thing that many things changes really slowly... But one day, maybe we should see... A better world. Until then sexism seems to be part of everyday life... Share this post Link to post
Posted March 23, 2012 All one can say about that is - I've seen that happen with boys - and also with ADULT men - including in my workplace. What's your point there ? And men keep other men down too. Dog eat dog world for everyone. To me it's sexist that you seem to think only women do that. Ain't true. I tend to think that people use the "well, look how much women keep each other down" argument to distract from the real problem. Yes, women keep women down. We're not all the same, you know. We don't all act like x, y, and z. It's like when people say "well, black people say the n-word..." Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) Kelkelen, maybe girls below 20 do think its positive when they're compared to guys, I however know plenty of women over 20, successful, independent, strong smart women, not one of them would see it as a compliment to be called a guy in any aspect of things, real women are proud of them being women and wouldnt want it any other way, real men are the same way... You fight like a guy You throw like a guy You run like a guy whatever like a guy Those are not compliments, nothing positive in any of them... If you view those as compliments... I really dont know what to say to that... Okay, right, the idea isn't usually phrased that way. When directed at a woman, it's more like, "you throw as well as a guy," or "you play (x sport) as well as a guy." We don't even bother saying, "you throw as poorly as a girl." It's implied that to do ANYthing "like a girl" will automatically mean it's a negative comparison. THAT's the heart of the issue I'm trying to comment on, here. "like a girl" = bad thing. "like a girl" = incredibly common insult in English. We all live surrounded by this message. Also, by the idea that we should strive to "take it like a man." As well as certain body parts being used as flat insults, by themselves. Or people being -whipped, one person being another person's , someone "making someone/thing their ," etc. Edited March 24, 2012 by Kelkelen Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) First of all, thank you Princess Artemis, Fuzzbucket, and Sockpuppet Strangler for the support, I appreciate it very much Read my post again, havent appointed myself as anyone's speaker, shared what I was told by 4-5 non-western members, which is 5 times the number of non-western members in this thread or any of the other threads I've seen thus far, What others think or not think I dont know, however when more than one non-westerner says the same thing I started paying attention to it, and guess what, I indeed noticed that indeed others arent part of the discussion... Let's see then. peopel from non-western countries are scared of getting of getting into the general discussion as according to them there i Firsts no place for their views in here,,,, Their words, you guys did that to them... You specifically said people from non western countries. You did not say some people from some non western countries. Thus you ARE appointing yourself to speak for all of them based on your interactions with five people. And from my experience talking to people who play dragon cave in my country, (we do have a community ourselves you know) most of them either don't go on the forums as they cannot speak English that fluently, or only use the trading thread. Some of them don't care about issues like this. Now, that is a small sample, only around 30 people or so, but until there is a conprehensive poll I don't think we can use the "non-westerners are scared away by you guys" argument. Ylangylang is the only non-westerner who dared say something and if you read her post, it looks like she's walking on glass while posting.. Well, excuuuuse me, but I think I would know what I sound like while I'm posting. I can be rather direct and confrontational, Sockpuppet would know because I got warned twice, but if you are mistaking my being civil for being submissive and weak or being overly cautious, well, I can be more straightforward if you want. I think that sexism is prevalent everywhere, we should clean that up and not fight among ourselves about which cause is more worthy of fighting and also I think that a guy telling girls that they are overreacting while appointing himself to speak for other oppressed women is bleeping ridiculous. (Hope socky wouldn't find this too offensive but if it does I'll fix it) Where is it problematic in real world, women get promoted to higher ranking positions and then instead of helping other women out, they do the opposite, keeping others down... Funny. Above CEO I mentioned put this as a reason as to why he won't hire women but then went on to trash other CEOs in his field. The irony was sadly lost on others. These really don't get much attention over here in the US. Makes me want to go find a more international feminism source, as the ones I read are more USA-based. Well, there's an excellent blog called The Grand Narrative that talks about sexism in my country. Other countries I am not so sure about. Hope this helped. Edited March 24, 2012 by ylangylang Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever heard these phrases anywhere. Agreed. And just to point out, you realise the phrase 'man up' is just that touch sexist the other way in some cases - it means you should stop complaining about your problems and keep them all bottled up and pretend nothing is wrong, just like males. Which anyone can tell you is not only a bad thing to do, but a dig at guys for being so emotionally-closed off. Or it's used whenever you're supposed to stop complaining about having to do a stupid and potentially-dangerous stunt - such as drinking two dirty pints - and just do it. So 'man up' is sometimes used as a way of saying 'stop being sensible and act like the misogynist chauvinist adrenaline-fuelled idiots that males are.' And I never associated "fighting like a girl" as "fighting dirty," but more being weak and ineffectual. Although if you truly think women are weak fighters, I'd love you to meet a few girls in my grupo or a couple of the bouncers ;~) Edited March 24, 2012 by Kestra15 Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 And just to point out, you realise the phrase 'man up' is just that touch sexist the other way in some cases - it means you should stop complaining about your problems and keep them all bottled up and pretend nothing is wrong, just like males. Which anyone can tell you is not only a bad thing to do, but a dig at guys for being so emotionally-closed off. Or it's used whenever you're supposed to stop complaining about having to do a stupid and potentially-dangerous stunt - such as drinking two dirty pints - and just do it. So 'man up' is sometimes used as a way of saying 'stop being sensible and act like the misogynist chauvinist adrenaline-fuelled idiots that males are.' Indeed. It's a stupid thing to say for all sorts of misogynist and misandrist reasons. And I never associated "fighting like a girl" as "fighting dirty," but more being weak and ineffectual. Although if you truly think women are weak fighters, I'd love you to meet a few girls in my grupo or a couple of the bouncers ;~) That's likely a difference in location showing. "Fight like a girl" does mean weak and ineffectual too, but because of where I grew up and who said things and how, it took on the 'fight dirty' shade as well. Boys around here rarely tore each others hair out, bit each other, or clawed at each others faces when they got into fights. The boys threw punches mainly, kept things above the belt. The girls though? They didn't hold back. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 That's likely a difference in location showing. "Fight like a girl" does mean weak and ineffectual too, but because of where I grew up and who said things and how, it took on the 'fight dirty' shade as well. Boys around here rarely tore each others hair out, bit each other, or clawed at each others faces when they got into fights. The boys threw punches mainly, kept things above the belt. The girls though? They didn't hold back. Then I'm proud to say I fight like a girl :~P Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 You specifically said people from non western countries. You did not say some people from some non western countries. Thus you ARE appointing yourself to speak for all of them. And from my experience talking to people who play dragon cave in my country, (we do have a community ourselves you know) most of them either don't go on the forums as they cannot speak English that fluently, or only use the trading thread. Some of them don't care about issues like this. Now, that is a small sample, only around 30 people or so, but until there is a conprehensive poll I don't think we can use the "non-westerners are scared away by you guys" argument. .... I think that sexism is prevalent everywhere, we should clean that up and not fight among ourselves about which cause is more worthy of fighting and also I think that a guy telling girls that they are overreacting while appointing himself to speak for other oppressed women is bleeping ridiculous. (Hope socky wouldn't find this too offensive but if it does I'll fix it) @ylangylang -- I am repeatedly impressed by just how fluent you are! You *aren't* a native English speaker, are you? I could easily believe that you are! I'm also grateful for how well you manage to clarify your points and those of others, including mine. And, regarding "scaring people away" or else them thinking what I'm talking about is stupid or unimportant... I can't be responsible for reactions that I don't even know about. I will gladly welcome anyone who wants to join this forum and discuss, and I, for one, would *love* to know more about sex and gender issues in other countries and cultures. If I do upset someone, they can tell me, and I'll apologize and try to understand. I promise, I'm kind, I'm approachable, I don't bite. The last thing I want is to hurt anybody! As for the general attitude of "you're overanalyzing and overreacting," that's called belittling. It isn't fair to diminish people's problems when they express those problems -- to essentially say, "your hurt is nothing compared to other people's hurts, so suck it up." It seems that The Evil Doer wants this topic to only discuss "big" or "serious" issues of sexism -- which are what? Are we supposed to stick to an approved list of "sexism that is important enough to discuss?" To not talk about small instances because "people will laugh at you" and "you'll scare off people?" Can I only discuss rape, mutilation, and human trafficking in a thread about sexism? Of course not. All of the "small" things we're discussing are the threads that make up the very fabric of our lives. They are what create, allow, and even encourage sexual oppression and abuse. If you want me to stick to the "big stuff," well, I've been through an abusive relationship. But I *can't* talk about that without talking about the little stuff, because it's aaaaall that little stuff -- those little comments, those little ideas, those little beliefs, those "minor" examples of sexism -- which set the stage for the abuse to take place. Even in America, one of the most forward countries in terms of sex and gender equality, there is STILL a ghastly rate of domestic abuse of women; one of those "big problems" which simply can't be solved without addressing the minor issues in society which encourage or condone certain behaviors in men and women. Anyone who works in social work or the legal system can tell you, making a law against abuse doesn't stop it. Restraining orders don't stop angry ex-boyfriends from stalking, beating, even killing their exes. Laws against such behavior don't stop it. Social attitudes, education, the way we talk about the sexes and portray them in movies, TV, advertising, games, and fiction, negative stereotypes, the things that parents teach their children about interacting with the opposite sex... all of those supposedly "little" things are what *really* need to change, for anything else to change on a greater scale. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) As for the general attitude of "you're overanalyzing and overreacting," that's called belittling. It isn't fair to diminish people's problems when they express those problems -- to essentially say, "your hurt is nothing compared to other people's hurts, so suck it up." It seems that The Evil Doer wants this topic to only discuss "big" or "serious" issues of sexism -- which are what? Are we supposed to stick to an approved list of "sexism that is important enough to discuss?" To not talk about small instances because "people will laugh at you" and "you'll scare off people?" Can I only discuss rape, mutilation, and human trafficking in a thread about sexism? Of course not. All of the "small" things we're discussing are the threads that make up the very fabric of our lives. They are what create, allow, and even encourage sexual oppression and abuse. If you want me to stick to the "big stuff," well, I've been through an abusive relationship. But I *can't* talk about that without talking about the little stuff, because it's aaaaall that little stuff -- those little comments, those little ideas, those little beliefs, those "minor" examples of sexism -- which set the stage for the abuse to take place. Even in America, one of the most forward countries in terms of sex and gender equality, there is STILL a ghastly rate of domestic abuse of women; one of those "big problems" which simply can't be solved without addressing the minor issues in society which encourage or condone certain behaviors in men and women. Anyone who works in social work or the legal system can tell you, making a law against abuse doesn't stop it. Restraining orders don't stop angry ex-boyfriends from stalking, beating, even killing their exes. Laws against such behavior don't stop it. Social attitudes, education, the way we talk about the sexes and portray them in movies, TV, advertising, games, and fiction, negative stereotypes, the things that parents teach their children about interacting with the opposite sex... all of those supposedly "little" things are what *really* need to change, for anything else to change on a greater scale. This, this so much. You CANNOT fix the bigger problem without fixing the underlying causes of it first. Any "fix" will be temporary util those underlying causes are changed. Think of it this way, and I'll use a personal example for this analogy. We'll start with the "big problem"--my depression. I used to be depressed to the point of self-mutilation. I was suicidal at points, and did attempt once--and thankfully was stopped before doing any damage. Now, initially we focused only on fixing the "big problem". I was put on medication. I saw a therapist where we mostly talked about ways to handle the problem now that I had it (since that was the biggest concern at that point). And this did work--for a while. But every time I thought I was getting better, or that I'd finally escaped it, it would come back. But then, after years of this... Something changed. Something that noticeably decreased it. Something that actually helped me make progress on my recovery, and at this point I think I may be mostly recovered (though I sometimes still catch myself starting to slip back, I now know how to prevent or lessen that. And, even better, I've managed to learn how to deal with it when I do have some minor episodes.) See, in my case, the depression was brought on by stress, and then sustained by a combination of stress and cripplingly low self-esteem. It was a thousand LITTLE things, topped with one slightly larger thing, which triggered it. And then it was constant little things that kept me from pulling out of it. Those little things, things others said and did and the things I said and did and thought about myself, those are what prevented me from getting properly on the road to recovery. But finally, I started managing to do something about some of those little things. And as those little problems began to be fixed, and as I dealt with them... The bigger problem started getting fixed, too. Just trying to fix the bigger problem didn't work--all I could do was manage it, and try to keep it from getting worse with all of the "fixes". It was only when I started focusing that energy on fixing the small things, the things that seem inconsequential compared to the "bigger problem" that said "bigger problem" could finally be "fixed". The idea of sexism is the same thing. Just trying to tackle the bigger issues won't work--because you're only treating the symptoms, not the cause. If you want a lasting cure, you need to deal with the cause. If you can fix the underlying causes, those things that make the big problems happen, then those big problems will naturally lessen and/or vanish on their own or with considerably less help than it was taking to try and deal with them before. And in this case, those little things are as simple as words and phrases that either promote one sex or tear down the other. It's little actions, ideas, attitudes that society says are okay. It's the little things that people are saying "stop getting offended about, it's not offensive!" Those tiny things are causing the general attitudes that allows the bigger sexist problems to exist. So to change those bigger problems, we need to change the attitudes of our societies. And to change those attitudes, we need to change the little phrases and words and actions that imply one sex is superior/inferior to the other. "Having balls" or "ballsy" or other similar phrases for doing something crazy/impressive/stupid/dangerous/some combination there of/etc.? That implies that men are "braver" or "stupider" depending on how you look at it. Telling somebody to "grow a pair" or to "stop being such a little -female dog-"? Those little phrases are sexist. But phrases like those have become so ingrained in American society (and I'm sure other societies have their own roughly equivalent phrases) that we don't think of them as sexist at first. It's not until we really look at it that we can finally see that yes, the argument for them being sexist does have a point. Hell even those of us who admit they're sexist still use them at times because they're just so accepted by society that it takes a lot of effort to change that. We need to change these things. And by changing these small things, we can help change the attitude that such is okay. And when that attitude changes, then we can tackle the bigger problems. Edited March 24, 2012 by KageSora Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 Agreed. And just to point out, you realise the phrase 'man up' is just that touch sexist the other way in some cases - it means you should stop complaining about your problems and keep them all bottled up and pretend nothing is wrong, just like males. Which anyone can tell you is not only a bad thing to do, but a dig at guys for being so emotionally-closed off. Or it's used whenever you're supposed to stop complaining about having to do a stupid and potentially-dangerous stunt - such as drinking two dirty pints - and just do it. So 'man up' is sometimes used as a way of saying 'stop being sensible and act like the misogynist chauvinist adrenaline-fuelled idiots that males are.' True. Inherently unfair to everybody. Yay? =| Well, there's an excellent blog called The Grand Narrative that talks about sexism in my country. Other countries I am not so sure about. Hope this helped. Thanks; I'll check that out! Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 True. Inherently unfair to everybody. But sometimes you really do need to just man up. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 Thanks, Kelkelen. I did have a great tutor-my mom-who was an English teacher. And you're welcome, Sock And just to point out, you realise the phrase 'man up' is just that touch sexist the other way in some cases - it means you should stop complaining about your problems and keep them all bottled up and pretend nothing is wrong, just like males. Which anyone can tell you is not only a bad thing to do, but a dig at guys for being so emotionally-closed off. Or it's used whenever you're supposed to stop complaining about having to do a stupid and potentially-dangerous stunt - such as drinking two dirty pints - and just do it. So 'man up' is sometimes used as a way of saying 'stop being sensible and act like the misogynist chauvinist adrenaline-fuelled idiots that males are.' QTF. The inherent problem is patriarchy, that puts down women and holds them to this impossible standard but at the same time expects men to fulfil impossible roles as well. I find that men also experience more subtle ways of pressure from society overall. For example my friend has what others call a very girly looking face, and while girls like that, guys make fun of him because he looks gay, whatever that means. But he's straight. Men are also widely thought of as being impossible to control their urges which is also insulting. Lastly, legally men cannot get raped, because the law is written in a way so that rape is only applied to females. So... Men who experienced sexual harassment or rape cannot bring their perpetrators to court. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 Yes, that makes sense, Tikindi. It's a very Tikindi way of saying it, too. If that is the case, though, and the best that many men can do is be baffled about the deep reasons of why but do see the what, and connect the two, then I can reasonably expect those men, if they have respect for the people they see upset, to help stop what's upsetting even if they don't or can't understand the deep down whys. That's just being good to one another. I'm quite amused that you recognise there's a very 'me' way of saying things. On topic - yes, on a personal level. As soon as it was pointed out to me that doing something offended someone then I'd stop doing it around them. That applies to anyone, of any gender. That said I'd wouldn't go out and campaign, or try to change things on a large level, when I honestly can't see what the problem is. I'm not going to try and change the things about society that don't seem broken to me, if that makes sense. I'll change myself if I realise something I'm doing is upsetting people, but I won't go out and try to change society for them. And, to be fair, I'm more likely to change myself if the person doing it is polite then if they rip into me about something. Ripping into me about something that's upsetting you is just likely to make me avoid you. Share this post Link to post
Posted March 24, 2012 I'm quite amused that you recognise there's a very 'me' way of saying things. On topic - yes, on a personal level. As soon as it was pointed out to me that doing something offended someone then I'd stop doing it around them. That applies to anyone, of any gender. That said I'd wouldn't go out and campaign, or try to change things on a large level, when I honestly can't see what the problem is. I'm not going to try and change the things about society that don't seem broken to me, if that makes sense. I'll change myself if I realise something I'm doing is upsetting people, but I won't go out and try to change society for them. And, to be fair, I'm more likely to change myself if the person doing it is polite then if they rip into me about something. Ripping into me about something that's upsetting you is just likely to make me avoid you. RIGHT ON ! And @KageSora - thanks for that brilliant analogy - I am in exactly the same position; meds over many episodes over many years until I was hospitalised and then we started looking at how to head away from the small triggers. I've not had to use any meds since. Little things add up; the whole is far more than the sum of its parts. But taking out some of the parts can defuse it. Where is it problematic in real world, women get promoted to higher ranking positions and then instead of helping other women out, they do the opposite, keeping others down... Funny. Above CEO I mentioned put this as a reason as to why he won't hire women but then went on to trash other CEOs in his field. The irony was sadly lost on others. EX ****ing ACTLY ! We are talking INDIVIDUALS using duff platitudes to justify their own nasty behaviour; it isn't real, as a definition of life, at all. Share this post Link to post
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