Sexual Orientation

[Switch]

Then what, exactly, is the difference between bisexual and pansexual?

 

The definition of bisexual when I was growing up referred to being attracted to male and female, thus the bi- portion of that equation, which in itself has its root in Greek and Latin, meaning two. That prefix has never stopped meaning 'two' in the other words it's used in, so why is bisexual different? Doesn't pansexual cover what bisexual doesn't? Are they now two terms that mean the same thing?

 

And what of people that are only attracted to both male and female? What is the new term for them?

"modern definition is generally that pansexuality is attraction to people of any gender, and bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders. the idea that bi people are only attracted to binary individuals is a common misconception. lots of people in the bi community have written about why this isnt the case."

 

the meaning of bisexuality has evolved, like many words in the english language, to be more inclusive because of increased awareness of non-binary genders.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Switch

[Buddy]

I'm pansexual and like girls more than men though!

[Stromboli]

Yep. In broad senses, pan is usually accepted as attraction to all genders, where bi is attraction to multiple genders. Pan is seen as more inclusive, but bi isn't always as narrow as it's construed to be. There isn't a "new term" for people who are attracted to only men and women, they still fit under the term "bisexual." It's just broadened beyond the previous definition.

I think that historically there's kind of been the "Big Three" of sexual/emotional attractions, being hetrosexual, homosexual, and bisexual. Under that system, pansexuality was treated as a subset to bisexuality.

 

So yeah. Evolving language. Making older, known terms more applicable in modern settings. Some overlapping of terms, but the times are a-changin'. We're trying to construct a vernacular to keep up with 'em.

 

I've been reading lately about the etymology about LGBT+ terms. It's interesting. Apparently, pansexuality is derived from pansexualism, which was a theory that "all human activity, mental or physical, is driven by sex instinct." And it looks like it was used to scorn Freud's theories of psychology. So that's fun.

[TameTheHarpie]

pansexual ceteroromantic (meaning romantically attracted to other nonbinary people)

[Shienvien]

bi is attraction to multiple genders

"Bi" is literally "two". I don't agree with deliberately promoting the abuse of terminology just because the term others have used to describe a different thing is not applicable to the situation we want to describe now - if we do not intend to say what we're literally saying, then we should use a different, more appropriate term. Bi is bi, two. Multi is multi, several. Hence, if you mean multisexual, say multisexual, not bisexual, as the latter is verbatim twosexual.

[Omega Entity]

"Bi" is literally "two". I don't agree with deliberately promoting the abuse of terminology just because the term others have used to describe a different thing is not applicable to the situation we want to describe now - if we do not intend to say what we're literally saying, then we should use a different, more appropriate term. Bi is bi, two. Multi is multi, several. Hence, if you mean multisexual, say multisexual, not bisexual, as the latter is verbatim twosexual.

This is pretty much how I feel.

[Obscure_Trash]

"Bi" is literally "two". I don't agree with deliberately promoting the abuse of terminology just because the term others have used to describe a different thing is not applicable to the situation we want to describe now - if we do not intend to say what we're literally saying, then we should use a different, more appropriate term. Bi is bi, two. Multi is multi, several. Hence, if you mean multisexual, say multisexual, not bisexual, as the latter is verbatim twosexual.

Actual real bi people have defined bi as "two or more" and "multiple" for decades now. It's extremely rude to tell them they're wrong because you can't get over your own hangups.

 

If you are bi and for YOU bi means two, that's fine, but you've no right to label all bi people as two. =|

 

As a lovely bi friend once said to "bi means 2":

 

And Capri means Goat.

 

But no one thinks that you have strapped live baby goats to your nether regions when you walk down the boardwalk in summer just because you have questionable taste in summer clothing.

Edited December 31, 2015 by SockPuppet Strangler

[starthecat]

and if you're uncomfortable with bi meaning more than two genders regarding your own orientation, say you're attracted to three specific genders and you don't like the label bisexual, there is polysexual, meaning being attracted to more than 2 genders/multiple genders. Some people use it instead of bisexual either way, because of the stigma that bisexual means your gender and the "opposite" gender, which we know to be incorrect, as many genders do not have opposites, and it's a very binary definition. Some people, even though they know that isn't what bisexual is, know that many people still believe it to be true, and therefore feel uncomfortable with the label.

 

Basically, polysexual is a tad more broad, while still not meaning ALL genders like pansexual does. On top of that, because many haven't heard of it, it doesn't have the same misconception.

 

Like Sock said, bisexual doesn't HAVE to mean two. it often does, but it is not a requirement. However, there is a separate term for people to use for themselves if they think it fits better for them.

Edited December 31, 2015 by starthecat

[Omega Entity]

Sock, except that the argument your bi friend made makes no sense. Capris are named for an Italian island where the style originally became popular. While the name of the island they're named for may have been named for goats (or wild boar, depending on who you ask), the name of the pants in themselves have never had any direct correlation to goats, even though they're named after an island who was possibly named for them. It's like inferring Bermuda shorts are named after Juan de Bermudez, the man from which the island's name is derived. The basis of the articles of clothing were never named for the origination of the name of the island, but the islands themselves. to suggest otherwise is silly at best, and misrepresentation of facts at worst.

 

Bisexual, on the other hand, is named after nothing, but is literally a combination of bi-, etymologically meaning two and with absolutely no wiggle room or two ways about it (pun partially intended), and sexual, stemming from the Latin 'sexus'. It's a perfectly succinct, defined term, which means exactly what it says - 'two' and 'sex'. ***izing etymology for the sake of the misinterpretation of others is not very smart, imo, especially when a word is easily coined to describe what bisexual clearly is not.

 

I have yet to meet one single bisexual person who has argued that bisexual is anything but the attraction between males and females. Is it right for one group to appropriate another group's label, simply because they think it describes them better, especially when the most simple, basic etymology of the word doesn't like line up with that definition?

 

For people here who are so fixated on trying to clearly define certain aspects of sexuality, they certainly seem determined to muddy the waters on what should be a clear-cut definition, especially when there's words that exist or can easily be created to mean what you want it to mean, and even using basic parts derived from the same language as the term in question.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Omega Entity

[Shienvien]

It's extremely rude to tell them they're wrong because you can't get over your own hangups.

Rude is extremely subjective matter, and different people have different sensitivities. Someone will always see something as rude. Your rude or subjective perception of right or wrong is no more valid than mine. I don't think you should dismiss another person just because *you* consider their feelings, interpretations or priorities less valid than your own. (Or your one friend's thoughts more "right" than another person-of-X-category's feelings.)

I also abhor the term "homophobic" in the sense many people seem to be using it, for instance, and refuse to use it in that way since actual homophobia is - as far as I'm aware - very rare. What most people use the word for has nothing to do with phobia - it's homointolerance, bigotry and a bunch of other things, but not phobia.

Point being, if we're going to approach this matter from the angle of who is more rude or has "hangups" and/or a narrow and constricted world-view, then we'll be here for the entirety of 2016 and then some. I am rather particular about language and consistent definitions. (We'll never understand one another properly if words have different meanings to everyone - and then we're in an awkward, harmful mess of misunderstandings, failures to communicate thoughts properly, confusion and pseudo-lies.) You're set in that your personal view of sexuality/gender/sex matters is the right one (which we've seen other trans/nonbinary/etc people both agree and disagree with).

 

What I was talking about was apt terminology, rather than the preferences of any specific individual. General preferences and how you treat a specific individual are different matters. You can both respect a person and have a differing general opinion.

 

(For the matter, I also did not know what capri meant other than a goat, so I'd have had to minimally go look up whatever was meant. I'd probably have assume goat-wool clothing, since the context seemed to imply something to do with attire...)

 

 

Like Sock said, bisexual doesn't HAVE to mean two.

Linguistically - yes, it has. Bi literally means two. There is no ifs, buts, or maybes about it. Bi *IS* two. Thus, bisexual is objectively and absolutely, by base definition, twosexual.

 

For several (but not necessarily all), there are prefixes like multi- and poly-, amongst others.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Shienvien

[starthecat]

Linguistically - yes, it has. Bi literally means two. There is no ifs, buts, or maybes about it. Bi *IS* two. Thus, bisexual is objectively and absolutely twosexual.

Ok that's great, but unless you're bisexual and that's the label you've chosen for yourself, imposing your own decided, concrete definition of bisexuality onto other people who have identified as bisexual is silly. You can think it means whatever you want, but it won't change the people who use the label the way they want to. A lot of words don't superimpose their parts on the definition, like transphobia and homophobia, which have evolved to mean different things than they originally did. Words evolve away from their stems, that's the very nature of language.

 

 

I have yet to meet one single bisexual person who has argued that bisexual is anything but the attraction between males and females

Also, bisexuality, even when constrained to 2 genders, still does not always mean men and women. In that context, it can still mean 2 genders other than yours, your gender and another gender, two nonbinary genders, a binary gender and a nonbinary gender, you name it. I don't know who your bisexual friends are, but there's a whole world of bi people out there who acknowledge bisexuality isn't just binary. Especially, I'm sure, nonbinary people, who could never use the traditional "your sex and the opposite sex" because drawing "opposites" between nonbinary genders is near impossible. In fact, when you think about it, the opposite of any gender is agender. There's a lot of intricacy in sexuality and labels, and labels can do whatever they want for someone who chooses to use them.

[Shienvien]

You can think it means whatever you want, but it won't change the people who use the label the way they want to.

Refer to the part about respecting people while having different views. Regardless, what a person or another labels themselves won't change the dictionary definition.

 

"Sex" and "gender" are also different things, for the matter - the first is phenotype, the second is identity. (Sexuality refers to sexual attraction, which typically - but not always - is physical, so based on phenotype. Of which for humans there is basically a triangle of male, female and asexed as corners, with variations of intersex close to the center of the male/female axis. There are sexualities which effectively overlook sex, though.)

Edited December 31, 2015 by Shienvien

[Obscure_Trash]

I have yet to meet one single bisexual person who has argued that bisexual is anything but the attraction between males and females

 

Then you're not listening.

 

Nearly all major bisexual organizations say otherwise. And as I mentioned - have been saying so for decades.

 

Links may have language - I didn't check too closely.

http://www.biresource.net/whatis.shtml

http://www.bisexualindex.org.uk/index.php/Definitions

http://www.bialogue.org/Pages/BiDefinition.html

http://www.open.ac.uk/ccig/files/ccig/The%...%20Feb.2012.pdf

http://internationalspectrum.umich.edu/life/definitions

http://www.biresource.net/aboutus.shtml

 

Bi people run bi organizations. Here they are saying bi = multiple, attraction to other + same genders, etc.

 

I do not care what the word "literally" means. Hey, literally itself doesn't even mean just literally anymore. It also means figuratively. Because...

 

Language evolves and changes.

 

Yes, it is rude to stick your rigid definition on people. You've absolutely no right to label others. That is not what our labels are for. Labels are for us. Choose the label you want, but don't tell others how you want them to label. That is indeed rude.

Edited December 31, 2015 by SockPuppet Strangler

[starthecat]

Refer to the part about respecting people while having different views. Regardless, what a person or another labels themselves won't change the dictionary definition.

 

"Sex" and "gender" are also different things, for the matter - the first is phenotype, the second is identity.

Oh, the dictionary. Of course, because that is the end-all-be-all to word definitions. Do you think that, in the dictionary, we're going to explore the complexities of bisexuality and gender for a nifty one sentence definition? The dictionary, in many fields, but especially in LGBTQIA+ topics, is quite outdated. It serves as a simple and quick way to vaguely understand a word. The dictionary doesn't define this world and the culture that surrounds the english language. I don't know anyone that adheres to dictionary definitions of every word they ever speak. The dictionary also changes to adapt to the world's new words and definitions. There is every chance that someone will get the powers in charge to edit the definition of bisexuality, among plenty other words. Regardless of what the 7 word definition of bisexuality is in the dictionary, it isn't concrete.

 

This thread isn't for gender, but I am of the stance that "biological sex" does not exist, so I will not comment on your second half.

 

EDIT: Thank you sock, very well said

Edited December 31, 2015 by starthecat

[Obscure_Trash]

dictionary definition.

On dictionaries:

 

First there’s that phrase: “The dictionary says…”

 

“The dictionary” implies that there’s exactly one dictionary in existence or that all existing dictionaries are so similar that they can be lumped together. “Says” suggests that “the dictionary” is an autonomous entity. Both of these beliefs are incorrect.

 

We all know that there are lots of dictionaries out there, and while many of them are similar, some, especially those designed for specific fields, are not. So a sociology dictionary’s entry for racism is going to be a bit different than a popular dictionary’s entry, because the contexts and usages differ. And of course “the dictionary” doesn’t “say” anything, because while lexicographers aren’t exactly celebrities, they do exist, and they do write the definitions you take for granted. To be fair, “[book] says” is common usage, so I wouldn’t typically harp on it, but I take issue with it here because it ignores an important point.

 

Some people use the word “compile,” e.g. “Dictionaries are compiled by people.” But this still misses the point, because definitions are not just scattered in the grass waiting to be collected. Definitions are written, and the basis for those definitions is usage.

 

The whole thing is really worth a read.

 

As well:

 

Firstly, the dictionary is not an ultimate

authority. It’s a brief answer, a vague idea, as concise as it can

be to get the idea across. It is the Twitter of reference books.

 

And for most subjects we know this. If I look up “carrot” in

the dictionary, most people will acknowledge I do not know all there

is to know about carrots and if I truly want to understand carrots,

I should probably pick up a horticultural text book. We know that legal

and medical terms are going to be, at best, simplistically represented

and know we need to find a lawyer or a doctor if we want to know more.

Anyone deciding to base their argument on, say, a philosophical concept

or term using the dictionary is going to be laughed at at best, or automatically

lose whatever argument they’re trying to make at least.

 

Now these are talking about a different context but are still relevant here.

Edited December 31, 2015 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Shienvien]

Labels are for comprehension. Hence, they should be consistent and universal. We should be teaching people that two is two, and several is several. If they still want to insist that two means any number greater or equal than two after that, then that's their problem.

 

"But language evolves!" - Change is not always good. Sometimes it just breaks what works perfectly. If we're going to change something, it should be in a direction that is actually beneficial and better defining, rather than muddling up a definite term to generate yet another word for a thing we already have a minimum of two words for. There is no benefit to generating additional redundancy at the cost of something that is much better left to define something much narrower. We don't need three or more words for the same thing. Two or more words for the same thing is already enough. Any more is superfluous and useless.

[starthecat]

Labels are for comprehension. Hence, they should be consistent and universal. We should be teaching people that two is two, and several is several. If they still want to insist that two means any number greater or equal than two after that, then that's their problem.

 

"But language evolves!" - Change is not always good. Sometimes it just breaks what works perfectly. If we're going to change something, it should be in a direction that is actually beneficial and better defining, rather than muddling up a definite term to generate yet another word for a thing we already have a minimum of two words for. There is no benefit to generating additional redundancy at the cost of something that is much better left to define something much narrower. We don't need three or more words for the same thing. Two or more words for the same thing is already enough. Any more is superfluous and useless.

We aren't talking about the definition of "two" though. That is a tangible, countable, and mathmatic tool. A number. "bi-" is a prefix. Attaching it to a bicycle, would mean, yes, a bike has two wheels. Attaching it to a fluid social label, sexual, referring to sexuality, it becomes an idea. As I'm sure you've noticed, ideas are rarely consistent. Bisexual is a label for a common sexual identitiy shared between humans. The accepted definition is ever-changing as bisexual people further explore it, and its definition of "attracted to one or more genders" is becoming the widely used explanation for the term, as per Sock's sources. In this case, where I can't speak for anyone else, the newer explanation for the idea of bisexuality is an improvement. It is far less exclusive.

 

I don't know which words you think are exactly the same, but bisexual, polysexual, and pansexual all mean different things, even if the differences are slight. They were conceived because people didn't think one of the labels fit them, and came up with ones they felt better defined their sexuality. Choosing a label often means comfort, and if you have to choose a label that doesnt describe you, aka a universal concrete definition, you may become frustrated. In fact, wouldn't ya know it, that's precisely how these other labels are being born. Consistency doesn't solve everything. The words might be useless from your POV, but they aren't for other people. That's why they're words.

[Obscure_Trash]

We aren't talking about the definition of "two" though. That is a tangible, countable, and mathmatic tool. A number. "bi-" is a prefix. Attaching it to a bicycle, would mean, yes, a bike has two wheels. Attaching it to a fluid social label, sexual, referring to sexuality, it becomes an idea. As I'm sure you've noticed, ideas are rarely consistent. Bisexual is a label for a common sexual identitiy shared between humans. The accepted definition is ever-changing as bisexual people further explore it, and its definition of "attracted to one or more genders" is becoming the widely used explanation for the term, as per Sock's sources. In this case, where I can't speak for anyone else, the newer explanation for the idea of bisexuality is an improvement. It is far less exclusive.

Oh! On the bike thing - let's add:

 

A bicycle has two wheels, but adding training wheels to a bicycle (giving it four wheels) doesn't make it not a bicycle. We still call it a bicycle. ^^

 

Bisexual does not have to explicitly mean two and only two.

[Aquenee]

...I personally prefer a linguistically accurate label, otherwise it's just really misleading. I am bisexual, and to me, that means I am attracted to two sexes - male and female. Bi- is a prefix literally meaning two. Now, that doesn't mean bisexuality has to conform to "male and female"... it could mean you like "females and transgender males" as long as there are only TWO things to actually worry about in there... because bi- means two.

 

The prefixes are the ONLY thing separating sexualities.

 

Hetero- means different. Therefore, heterosexuals like the gender opposite theirs.

Homo- means same. Therefore, homosexuals like the same gender as their own.

A- means not. Therefore, asexuals are not sexually attracted to anybody.

 

But suddenly, bi- can mean literally whatever you want it to mean instead of the actual meaning, two? I realize language is always evolving, but that is still really misleading and very confusing...

 

You can say whatever you want about yourself. If you say you are bisexual, my mind will NOT automatically spring to "attracted to two or more," it will spring to "attracted to two" because that is what the prefix means. If you then proceed to tell me you're attracted to more than two, then okay I guess. If you want to label yourself as bisexual, then I will gladly oblige and call you bisexual. However, as long as that label is what you use for yourself, I'm probably not going to remember that you actually like more than two genders.

 

If you say you're bisexual, I'll remember you said "bisexual," and probably not remember the specifics. Which means unless you're a prominent person in my life that I remember your preferences, I'll likely think that you only like two.

 

If you just plain tell me you're, say, polysexual or pansexual or whatever, then I'll immediately associate you with the prefixes for those sexualities. Poly- means multiple, so I'll be able to safely guess you like many genders. Pan- means all, so I'll be able to safely guess that you like anyone regardless of gender.

 

 

Seriously, it's a lot easier and less confusing to stick to the actual prefixes that go with these sexualities. I've known for all my life that a bicycle is called a bicycle because it has two wheels. If someone told me that anything with two OR MORE wheels was still a bicycle, I would be very confused. It completely takes away from the purpose of the prefix, since suddenly a tricycle is the same thing as a bicycle.

 

If you tell me your sexual identification, I will call you by whatever label you tell me you are. However, I will be under the assumption that the prefix on the label you give me is correct.

[starthecat]

it could mean you like "females and transgender males" as long as there are only TWO things to actually worry about in there.

 

Trans men are men. You would still be attracted to both male-identifying people and female-identifying people, so it wouldn't be any different than your previously saying you are attracted to men and women. Just a note trans women and trans men are included in any binary sexuality. being attracted to only women and trans men but not cis men in itself would be inherently transphobic, as it makes trans men sound like they aren't "real men"

 

editedit: I won't get into the rest of it, because I've already said most of my piece,

especially considering you've basically just said you're happy with the way you use your label because that's what you prefer, which we've been saying is totally fine, and in fact the point of labels. I'm glad you're comfortable with how you choose to identify!

 

 

edit: sock keeps making good points, especially on that training wheel comment

Edited December 31, 2015 by starthecat

[hazeh]

I just wanted to point out a little thing: Please be careful when using "transgender" as a separate gender identity. Transmen are still men, regardless of whatever gadget is in their undies. Sexual orientation has to do with attraction to a gender, which is not inherently defined by trouser fairies.

 

 

Edit: aaaaaanddd ninja'd

Edited December 31, 2015 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Shienvien]

We aren't talking about the definition of "two" though. That is a tangible, countable, and mathmatic tool. A number.  "bi-" is a prefix.

A prefix which means two. It's a tangible, unambiguous, scientific/mathematical prefix with a well-defined meaning. Binary is always binary, it isn't occasionally ternary or something else entirely. Bi == two.

 

Mono means one.

Bi means two.

Poly means many/several.

Pan means all.

And so on and so forth.

 

And thank you, Aquenee, that's a fair bit more elaborate way of putting it than I can do between patrolling the net and celebrating New Years. Happy New Years' Eve, should you celebrate it, by the way!

[Aquenee]

I won't get into the rest of it, because I've already said most of my piece, but

 

Trans men are men. You would still be attracted to both male-identifying people and female-identifying people, so it wouldn't be any different than your previously saying you are attracted to men and women. Just a note trans women and trans men are included in any binary sexuality. being attracted to only women and trans men but not cis men in itself would be inherently transphobic, as it makes trans men sound like they aren't "real men"

 

edit: sock keeps making good points, especially on that training wheel comment

Some people think of them separately. I personally don't, but I've seen enough people separate them that I'm used to saying "whatever you believe." on that issue. Even if it doesn't match my own Hehe sorry about that. Didn't mean to offend anyone by separating them, it's just that everyone I know always separates them and I personally do not have much knowledge in the trans world

 

Anyway on the training wheel comment: We do not change the prefix because we are not changing the original entity itself. A bicycle has two wheels. The training wheels are not part of the bicycle itself, they are an extension. The bicycle itself still has two wheels, but now it has two supporting wheels added to it.

 

Humans are bipeds, right? So, as you get older, you might need a walking cane to get around. That walking cane is NOT the human itself; it's an extension to support the human. That human doesn't suddenly become a triped because they have a "third leg" to help them, they're a biped with an extension. Just like a bicycle has two wheels with an extra two wheel extension

Edited December 31, 2015 by Aquenee

[starthecat]

A prefix which means two. It's a tangible, unambiguous, scientific/mathematical prefix with a well-defined meaning. Binary is always binary, it isn't occasionally ternary or something else entirely. Bi == two.

 

Mono means one.

Bi means two.

Poly means many/several.

Pan means all.

And so on and so forth.

 

And thank you, Aquenee, that's a fair bit more elaborate way of putting it than I can do between patrolling the net and celebrating New Years.  Happy New Years' Eve, should you celebrate it, by the way!

you're ignoring what I had just said before. I'll paste it here for you to address this specific reiteration of what the prefix bi means.

 

Attaching it to a fluid social label, sexual, referring to sexuality, it becomes an idea. As I'm sure you've noticed, ideas are rarely consistent. Bisexual is a label for a common sexual identitiy shared between humans. The accepted definition is ever-changing as bisexual people further explore it, and its definition of "attracted to one or more genders" is becoming the widely used explanation for the term, as per Sock's sources.

 

also,

Some people think of them separately. I personally don't, but I've seen enough people separate them that I'm used to saying "whatever you believe." on that issue. Even if it doesn't match my own tongue.gif Hehe sorry about that. Didn't mean to offend anyone by separating them, it's just that everyone I know always separates them and I personally do not have much knowledge in the trans world smile.gif

 

It would be best then, since you personally don't, not to separate, for future reference As a trans person myself, though not binary, I can tell you for a fact that binary trans people are not separate from their cis counterparts in sexuality definitions, nor in other ways aside from social stigmas and personal struggles. If you ever have any questions about trans stuff or anything else, feel free to pm me at any time! I can definitely answer questions you have, if you have any

Edited December 31, 2015 by starthecat

[Aquenee]

It would be best then, since you personally don't, not to separate, for future reference As a trans person myself, though not binary, I can tell you for a fact that binary trans people are not separate from their cis counterparts in sexuality definitions, nor in other ways aside from social stigmas and personal struggles. If you ever have any questions about trans stuff or anything else, feel free to pm me at any time! I can definitely answer questions you have, if you have any

Heh, this is a little bit awkward. When I originally wrote that, I was thinking of a close friend of mine. She likes cis females, and trans males. She does not, however, like cis males, despite having that same sexual definition. That's what I was trying to get across but it became a little more awkward-sounding than I thought I know that they are not different, but she... I don't know how to word it, she also knows that they are the same thing but she still specifies.

 

/will not use her for examples anymore because it's just awkward