We want Forum Feedback!

[blah]

Yes there was

 

I don't want to jump to conclusions, there is a thread in help that discusses randomly vanishing posts after all, but this seems like a bit much of a coincidence.

 

I wanted to post in someone's thread in help who was asking about the errors and if they were the only one, and while I was typing, the thread was deleted. I got the 'you don't have permission to view this topic' message.

 

Now, it wasn't really a question that a user could answer, so I could understand locking the thread - but moving it out of sight? And when I asked about that here, my post vanished.

 

Now ignoring seems to be the new thing, anything that causes as little attention as possible maybe?

 

I don't know and I don't really want to spend more time on this.

[Obscure_Trash]

I haven't been able to be on for a few days due to a stomach virus, but I would assume the post was deleted in accordance with the topics being deleted because the error was taken care of/known about/being worked on/or can't be fixed. You could PM TJ with your question/comment/complaint as he'll probably know more about it than me. ^^

[blah]

I hope you get better soon, Sock, stomach virus is nasty right before christmas <3

 

because the error was taken care of/known about/being worked on/or can't be fixed.

 

I assumed as much, but I think locking would have been a better way than deleting it. This way, other people will only open the same threads instead of reading the one(s) that is(are) there and going "oh, okay", and those who posted in the deleted ones, feel like they're being shut up.

 

I don't think I'll pm TJ, it wasn't that important.

[PointOfOrigin]

I hope you get better soon, Sock, stomach virus is nasty right before christmas <3

 

 

 

I assumed as much, but I think locking would have been a better way than deleting it. This way, other people will only open the same threads instead of reading the one(s) that is(are) there and going "oh, okay", and those who posted in the deleted ones, feel like they're being shut up.

 

I don't think I'll pm TJ, it wasn't that important.

All that good food uneaten... Hope you get better Sock!

 

I feel the same way as you blah. Even if most users don't read old threads, leaving it on forums for a couple of moths would make people feel a lot better and the "censorship" drama would be avoided.

[Fuzzbucket]

I haven't been able to be on for a few days due to a stomach virus, but I would assume the post was deleted in accordance with the topics being deleted because the error was taken care of/known about/being worked on/or can't be fixed. You could PM TJ with your question/comment/complaint as he'll probably know more about it than me. ^^

Maybe in news there could be a locked - to avoid miles of piling "me too, me too" - thread for "known errors" with notes on which are being dealt with and what's happening, and which are unfixable ?

[Rally Vincent]

Still on the habit of locking threads for no valid reason? No surprise, really.

[RainDear]

Still on the habit of locking threads for no valid reason? No surprise, really.

It might help discussion if you cited which thread you feel was locked without reason.

[olympe]

Look through the suggestions forum and search for recently locked threads. Can only be the "Raffle Rethink" one. *shrugs*

[RainDear]

Look through the suggestions forum and search for recently locked threads. Can only be the "Raffle Rethink" one. *shrugs*

Personally, I think there was reason to lock it, at least for a while. Things were getting heated.

[Rally Vincent]

I say it for the nth time: If someone breaks the rules, warn/ban them. Let the others continue with the debate. This is a message board, not a therapy group. Also, these threads usually don't get reopened. E.g. like the IOU-Trades discussion.

[brairtrainer]

Its not uncommon for them to be reopened in Suggestions/Requests though I will agree I wished the IOU descussion had been reopened but understand the night mare that would have beem

 

I have very little to complain about here, but if posts are indeed going missing because of mod deletions there needs to be additions the rules to explain it. IF mods are deleting stuff that shouldn't be deleted then TJ and the mods need to come up with a solution to that.

 

If its a glitch then a trackable open sticky thread for people to post when posts go missing would probably help track these down.

[Snowytoshi]

I say it for the nth time: If someone breaks the rules, warn/ban them. Let the others continue with the debate. This is a message board, not a therapy group. Also, these threads usually don't get reopened. E.g. like the IOU-Trades discussion.

I think that the mods should close threads to allow the tension to cool, but I think they should reopen threads. There were many good points made in the IOU thread that were ignored and many questions that were not answered. When questions were answered, the answers often did not address points made throughout the thread and when users asked the mods for clarification, they were given either silence or a C+P of the previous answer. In the future it would be nice if mods could address posts point by point and answer questions in a direct manner hat actually answers the question.

[RainDear]

I think that the mods should close threads to allow the tension to cool, but I think they should reopen threads. There were many good points made in the IOU thread that were ignored and many questions that were not answered. When questions were answered, the answers often did not address points made throughout the thread and when users asked the mods for clarification, they were given either silence or a C+P of the previous answer. In the future it would be nice if mods could address posts point by point and answer questions in a direct manner hat actually answers the question.

Often the mods are restricted by the information they have received from TJ. If he doesn't expand his information to them, they can't expand to us either. They are often in a very difficult position trying to appease us while dealing with TJ who often keeps much to himself.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think the raffle thread had got pretty pointless. It was just "Should be open to all, yes no yes no you are right and I am wrong."

 

I honestly think that every point that could be made had been made and it was getting circular. I was a keen poster - and even I had got bored... That takes a lot !

 

But I agree that the mods are often in an impossible position. This forum has to cope with being a FORUM where - let's be honest, and I include myself here (I just lost my last warn yesterday...) - some members do post irresponsibly, especially when angry and frustrated, and need to be deleted, but also they have to deal with questions about a game where ONLY TJ knows the actual facts.

 

Mods do delete when they need to. That's what they are FOR. Heck; they delete far less here than on most forums, they really do.

[Xythus]

I say it for the nth time: If someone breaks the rules, warn/ban them. Let the others continue with the debate. This is a message board, not a therapy group. Also, these threads usually don't get reopened. E.g. like the IOU-Trades discussion.

 

==========

 

Personally, I think there was reason to lock it, at least for a while. Things were getting heated.

Actually, I would like to suggest something. I agree with the above two posts, and would like to add on to them.

 

Suggestion #1: Mods should just go ahead and close a thread they seem fitting to close, depending on how much drama they think its going to stir up.

 

"How do you know its going to cause drama?"

Well, lets look at some examples. There are just some threads you know will cause arguing and flaming. There was a thread deleted that was created around the Tri-horn release, where said unnamed individual wrote that they were frustrated and will sue TJ if they didn't get an egg. There was the DC Gold thread in Suggestions where a person wanted to change DC's system and incorporate gold/money. Then yesterday, another user wanted to change up the raffle. To anyone who saw those threads and think they WEREN'T going to cause drama, step up and speak up. If such threads were just closed on sight, then we could save a lot of heated conversations. It's like drawing a line after the war; people have been insulted, fired at, hurt ... the aftermath results in some will be banned/warned, but ideally it could have been prevented in the first place.

 

However, I don't think its fair for our mods to constantly watch our butts, as they have lives too. Also, discussions move really fast, so here comes:

 

Suggestion #2: Make the suggestions forums just like the trading forum and dragon request forum, where a thread must be approved by a mod before it appears publicly.

 

I feel like this could eliminate the obvious suggestions of suggestions that have already been made, for example newbies having ideas of previously (I mean no offense to new people) made threads, or things that could never work. I remember at one point, I made a suggestion to have a thread titled "What NOT to suggest", as I myself am confused when a thread is closed and its a perfectly legit suggestion...but wait, ohhhh, it won't work because -insert reason here-. But then the thread was disapproved because things suggested could always be changed later, so there really is no guideline to what to suggest, hence all the drama when a crazy idea is brought up - half the time the OP didn't know any better.

 

Lastly, a thread that hasn't started could always be opened, whereas a thread left for members to ramble and then closed usually results in "omg why did you close this thread".

[Rally Vincent]

I honestly think that every point that could be made had been Mods do delete when they need to. That's what they are FOR. Heck; they delete far less here than on most forums, they really do.

No. Mods are there to ensure that the board is running and rules are obeyed. They are not there to stall or stop discussion that are within the forum rules. I have never seen a board where mods are allowed to prevent discussion by their own judgement or even delete posts that are not violating forum rules. I consider this bad modding, and if I didn't need the forum for my trades, I wouldn't bother to read things here other then news posts.

 

Closing threads punishes those who didn't violate rules, and I also have the impression that some mods use this instrument to cut down discussions for no other reason then not liking where it is heading. Mods are not there to streamline the userbase to a certain opinion. They are there to ensure any member can express their own opinion as long as it is within the rules.

 

I don't know which boards you visit, but in the boards I visit, DC is the only board where mods think they decide when a discussion is finished instead of the participants of said discussion.

[Ember_Silverly]

Suggestion #1: Mods should just go ahead and close a thread they seem fitting to close, depending on how much drama they think its going to stir up.

 

"How do you know its going to cause drama?"

Well, lets look at some examples. There are just some threads you know will cause arguing and flaming. There was a thread deleted that was created around the Tri-horn release, where said unnamed individual wrote that they were frustrated and will sue TJ if they didn't get an egg. There was the DC Gold thread in Suggestions where a person wanted to change DC's system and incorporate gold/money. Then yesterday, another user wanted to change up the raffle. To anyone who saw those threads and think they WEREN'T going to cause drama, step up and speak up. If such threads were just closed on sight, then we could save a lot of heated conversations. It's like drawing a line after the war; people have been insulted, fired at, hurt ... the aftermath results in some will be banned/warned, but ideally it could have been prevented in the first place.

 

However, I don't think its fair for our mods to constantly watch our butts, as they have lives too. Also, discussions move really fast, so here comes:

 

Suggestion #2: Make the suggestions forums just like the trading forum and dragon request forum, where a thread must be approved by a mod before it appears publicly.

 

I disagree with censoring thoughts on the basis that they might cause drama. Close threads after drama starts, sure, fine, whatever. That's the mod's job. I'm pretty sure its not the mod's job to limit discussion before drama starts. That seems a bit authoritarian for my taste.

 

For that reason, I'm also against your second suggestion. A good idea shouldn't be shot down and not discussed because it might lead to drama. If we live in fear of drama, there will never be new ideas.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

No. Mods are there to ensure that the board is running and rules are obeyed. They are not there to stall or stop discussion that are within the forum rules. I have never seen a board where mods are allowed to prevent discussion by their own judgement or even delete posts that are not violating forum rules. I consider this bad modding, and if I didn't need the forum for my trades, I wouldn't bother to read things here other then news posts.

 

Closing threads punishes those who didn't violate rules, and I also have the impression that some mods use this instrument to cut down discussions for no other reason then not liking where it is heading. Mods are not there to streamline the userbase to a certain opinion. They are there to ensure any member can express their own opinion as long as it is within the rules.

 

I don't know which boards you visit, but in the boards I visit, DC is the only board where mods think they decide when a discussion is finished instead of the participants of said discussion.

Within the rules - a lot of the posts in the raffle thread were flaming and plain nasty. To name but one example.

 

That sounds a bit like the freedom of speech argument - where you get to say ANYTHING, however foul, as long as you don't DO it. Which is NOT OK. "Freedom of speech" is NOT the same things as freedom to be foul to others. Sticks and stones may do more physical hurt - but words damn well CAN hurt.

 

I don't mean me; I mean - for instance - a few of the people who have recently that they'd left this forum because it was becoming so vitriolic - and that they think they will leave again, as it has got worse if anything. I can take it; at 68 years old, the only things you could say that would hurt me are not things that would EVER come up here !

 

Keeping the board running includes keeping it as a place that people want to be a part of. What is the point of one member being able to say what they like wherever they like as long as it is within some tightly defined rule, if many more leave because it is so unpleasant ? The threads cited here had degenerated far beyond the level of discussion - the only exception would perhaps be the IOU one - where the mods were hamstrung by not being ABLE to answer the points made, and posters were hammering away at them, when there was in fact nothing they could say.

 

Even "YOU ARE SO WRONG, I want this, and I can't see why I shouldn't have it so gimme !" is NOT discussion.

 

I visit four other boards. The threads I have seen closed here would have been closed on them too. The difference is that on all of those other forums, members have more respect for one another and this kind of stuff simply doesn't happen. Even though the subjects discussed are far more controversial (I don't choose to go into the details of my other area of interest here, sorry.)

 

HERE most of the really vile threads are people who have gripes about the actual game, and want changes made to suit what they want. It's inevitable that things will get nasty - and I am happy for the mods to put a stop to that. Sorry if you don't agree.

 

edited for typefails

Edited December 30, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Rally Vincent]

Within the rules - a lot of the posts in the raffle thread were flaming and plain nasty. To name but one example.

 

That sounds a bit like the freedom of speech argument - where you get to say ANYTHING, however foul, as long as you don't DO it. Which is NOT OK. "Freedom of speech" is NOT the same things as freedom to be foul to others. Sticks and stones may do more physical hurt - but words damn well CAN hurt.

 

I don't mean me; I mean - for instance - a few of the people who have recently that they'd left this forum because it was becoming so vitriolic - and that they think they will leave again, as it has got worse if anything. I can take it; at 68 years old, the only things you could say that would hurt me are not things that would EVER come up here !

 

Even "YOU ARE SO WRONG, I want this, and I can't see why I shouldn't have it so gimme !" is NOT discussion.

 

I visit four other boards. The threads I have seen closed here would have been closed on them too. The difference is that on all of tho other forums, members have more respect for one another and this kind of stuff simply doesn't happen. Even though the subjects discussed are far more controversial (I don't choose to go into the details of my other area of interest here, sorry.)

 

HERE most of the really vile threads are people who have gripes about the actual game, and want changes  made to suit what they want. It's inevitable that things will get nasty - and I am happy for the mods to put a stop to that. Sorry if you don't agree.

There is no Freedom of Speech in a private board. Freedom of Speech is a human right, ensuring our freedom against government censorship. Why are you derailing the discussion? I never mentioned freedom of speech. But: A message board has rules set by the owner. As long as discussion is within the rules, the mods, who are not the owner of hte board, are not to set their own mindset before those of other users.

 

Second: Last time we had an argument you said you read posts you respond to carefully. So please, why are you not adressing my main argument - punish those whoi violate rules. Do not punish the otherm users? Why should I suffer when someone else breaks a rule?

 

Third: You may think a discussion is pointless. That is your opinion, but not a fact. You are not in a position to decide if I want want to continue a diuscussion. You don't want it, don't make more posts in that thread. Do not prevent me to do so.

 

Keeping the board running includes keeping it as a place that people want to be a part of. What is the point of one member being able to say what they like wherever they like as long as it is within some tightly defined rule, if many more leave because it is so unpleasant ? The threads cited here had degenerated far beyond the level of discussion - the only exception would perhaps be the IOU one - where the mods were hamstrung by not being ABLE to answer the points made, and posters were hammering away at them, when there was in fact nothing they could say.

Hello uniformity. We don't want someone to spoil our rainbowland where everyone holds hands and agrees on everything, and if someone does, we just close the discussion. For everyone who keep as amember, someone else leaves because enforcing uniformity is not an environment where I feel good.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Rally Vincent

[RainDear]

If you believe that the mods are not obeying the rules that TJ gave them, tell TJ about it. I believe that they are obeying his rules and dealing with situations the way they have been told to.

[Xythus]

I disagree with censoring thoughts on the basis that they might cause drama. Close threads after drama starts, sure, fine, whatever. That's the mod's job. I'm pretty sure its not the mod's job to limit discussion before drama starts. That seems a bit authoritarian for my taste.

 

For that reason, I'm also against your second suggestion. A good idea shouldn't be shot down and not discussed because it might lead to drama. If we live in fear of drama, there will never be new ideas.

You are absolutely right, but I think you may be misunderstanding my idea. My suggestion wasn't so much as for censoring thoughts and good ideas, just filtering out the obvious bad ones. I'm all for new ideas, but I feel that we may need some guidelines or structure as what is the range of things to be suggested. Look, here in Dragon Requests, is a sprite guideline that underlines and details exactly how it should work. Our duteous mods do their best to see which dragons will work and which won't before the idea goes through, what is best for the site. Here in BSA's, there are guidelines as to what and what not to suggest. The trading forums, where there are - once again - guidelines as to how things should work. Judging by the few comments on that thread, it seems people understand once the rules were laid out. And they work fine, many users understand how to trade and use that subforum once they get it.

 

I'm not asking for OMG YOU MUSN'T DO THAT kind of rules, just small things to point out that is sure to not be in the realm of possibility. Its not a coincidence that in the other sections there is barely any arguments/drama/whatever, whereas in some areas it gets out of hand.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

There is no Freedom of Speech in a private board. Freedom of Speech is a human right, ensuring our freedom against government censorship. Why are you derailing the discussion? I never mentioned freedom of speech. But: A message board has rules set by the owner. As long as discussion is within the rules, the mods, who are not the owner of hte board, are not to set their own mindset before those of other users.

 

Second: Last time we had an argument you said you read posts you respond to carefully. So please, why are you not adressing my main argument - punish those whoi violate rules. Do not punish the otherm users? Why should I suffer when someone else breaks a rule?

 

Third: You may think a discussion is pointless. That is your opinion, but not a fact. You are not in a position to decide if I want want to continue a diuscussion. You don't want it, don't make more posts in that thread. Do not prevent me to do so.

 

 

Hello uniformity. We don't want someone to spoil our rainbowland where everyone holds hands and agrees on everything, and if someone does, we just close the discussion. For everyone who keep as amember, someone else leaves because enforcing uniformity is not an environment where I feel good.

I do read posts. I have already said many times that "violators should be prosecuted" - and admitted that I have copped warns - and taken them on the chin.

 

But as someone said - mods have lives. Socky posted on one of the "offending" threads not long ago that she had had to warn almost everyone in it, she was exhausted, and could not take any more that night so was locking it for the moment.

 

They do monitor stuff. they do warn. But they don't have to do this stuff. Yes, this is a private board. That doesn't mean we all get to insult everyone else because no-one from the General Public is watching. the laws of the land apply in private clubs too, you know. And the laws of decency on a private board.

 

If we are to be able to express all our opinions - where does that differ from freedom of speech in the "real world" ? I said it sounded like the argument often made for absolute freedom of speech, mind, not that that absolute right applies here. But you seem to be saying that we should all be allowed to say whatever we like as long as that is TECHNICALLY within the rules. I don't happen to agree. Rules are grey.

 

Nor have I EVER seen a mod here use their own views to close a thread. Heck, just last night a mod posted in some thread how very much she disagreed with me, but that I was free to say what I had said. Can you show me where you can prove that a mod did that ?

 

Maybe you want to continue a discussion when I don't. If it is a discussion - fine. But when so many threads degenerate into pointless reiterations (as one did here once; I think the perp was eventually banned...) there really is no point - it is almost like feeding trolls, sometimes.

 

On that occasion it went "But you are wrong, so gimme". That was what was said - over and over again - a precise restatement of his POV, with no added info or anything added to discussion. There is no point to a thread like that; it isn't a discussion when the main perp isn't listening to anything said by anyone else, just wants what he wants and "there is no alternative, so that is what this thread is going to say, whether anyone else likes it or not, so everyone else stoppit, as this is the truth sent from wherever, and I am telling again that it is so, and I have told you so many times so why are you not hearing me ?"

 

And you know that happens. And surely you don't want to say that isn't pointless ? Sure - if we ALL refuses to feed trolls - but you know how hard it is not to, when they are being jerks... Of course we don't all have to agree. You know that. WE usually don't ! and we are both (as of a few hours ago anyway) as far as I know warn free. But screaming and carrying on isn't the way. I don't want uniformity; lord knows I LOVE a good discussion - even a good argument. I even love doing the devil's advocate thing at times (though here that would be silly !) But that raffle thread - for instance - started out as a discussion, but by the end it - wasn't.

[TJ09]

No. Mods are there to ensure that the board is running and rules are obeyed. They are not there to stall or stop discussion that are within the forum rules. I have never seen a board where mods are allowed to prevent discussion by their own judgement or even delete posts that are not violating forum rules. I consider this bad modding, and if I didn't need the forum for my trades, I wouldn't bother to read things here other then news posts.

 

Closing threads punishes those who didn't violate rules, and I also have the impression that some mods use this instrument to cut down discussions for no other reason then not liking where it is heading. Mods are not there to streamline the userbase to a certain opinion. They are there to ensure any member can express their own opinion as long as it is within the rules.

 

I don't know which boards you visit, but in the boards I visit, DC is the only board where mods think they decide when a discussion is finished instead of the participants of said discussion.

Sometimes a thread moves too fast for the mods to keep up with.

 

For example, when a thread reaches 18 pages in less than a day.

[VictorianVivian]

I wonder if half of those complaining about mods have ever tried running a board as busy as this one or being a moderator on one? No matter how nice a mod is, they are often made out to be a "bad guy."

 

Sorry, but that just isn't right. Making judgments about "why" a mod may or may not do something makes you no better than the person you are accusing.

[TheGrox]

I posted that suggestion thread about the raffle, and heck, even I agree with its' closure, for the moment. We need to give people time to cool off, and mods time to catch up with what's happened.

 

But I do hope it gets reopened, so that we can have some sort of constructive discussion about it.

 

The argument was getting a bit old, but that was only because when someone like pokemonfan tried to move the discussion along, people just kept saying the same old things. I wish we could all discuss things in a constructive manner, without mods having to intervene in this way.