American Politics

[AsymDoll13]

2 hours ago, trystan said:

they are fun to read! while she says she doesn't really enjoy calling out Donald and her family, it's necessary that she does it.

 

I wouldn't want to call out my family either, but she's doing work. She's incredible. 

[trystan]

20 minutes ago, AsymDoll13 said:

I wouldn't want to call out my family either, but she's doing work. She's incredible. 

I agree!

i also subscribe to substack columns from Joyce Vance (lawyer) and Robert Reich (former secretary of labor in the 90s)

[Nationalize_The_Hoard]

Just heard about the Supreme Court looking into ruling on Trump's alleged immunity.

 

I've heard Democrats express enthusiasm for the idea of Trump going to prison, and I get that. I think he committed worse crimes than he's being tried for. But I am also pretty worried about DeSantis & Haley if Trump is taken out, and I don't really like the idea of Dems throwing their political enemies in prison just when the election comes around.

 

What are dragontamers' feelings on the Trump prosecution? ❤️

[AsymDoll13]

1 hour ago, Nationalize_The_Hoard said:

Just heard about the Supreme Court looking into ruling on Trump's alleged immunity.

 

I've heard Democrats express enthusiasm for the idea of Trump going to prison, and I get that. I think he committed worse crimes than he's being tried for. But I am also pretty worried about DeSantis & Haley if Trump is taken out, and I don't really like the idea of Dems throwing their political enemies in prison just when the election comes around.

 

What are dragontamers' feelings on the Trump prosecution? ❤️

 

Honestly. If you do the crime, you get the time. As for the others... if they've done crime, they deserve prison. 

[purplehaze]

2 hours ago, Nationalize_The_Hoard said:

I don't really like the idea of Dems throwing their political enemies in prison just when the election comes around.

"The Dems" are not throwing him in prison. 4 separate grand juries have investigated and found cause to charge him with crimes. That is the way our legal system works. He is not above the law and despite what he says this is not political.

[trystan]

45 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

4 separate grand juries have investigated and found cause to charge him with crimes.

 and those grand juries were made up of regular, everyday people.

[Nationalize_The_Hoard]

13 hours ago, purplehaze said:

"The Dems" are not throwing him in prison. 4 separate grand juries have investigated and found cause to charge him with crimes. That is the way our legal system works. He is not above the law and despite what he says this is not political.

I get that perspective, but the timing of the indictments seems pretty suspicious to me. Reporting says DOJ & FBI waited over a year to start looking into Jan. 6 issues for Trump. To me, it reads like the Democrats and their allies waited to see if Trump was going to be running a credible campaign for 2024, and then as it became clear that Trump would be the most likely Republican candidate, they started ramping up the prosecution effort. My understanding is that Trump's guilty of a lot of war crimes and crimes of corruption, like getting foreign dignitaries to eat at his restaurant while he was president. I don't see any of those much more serious crimes being pursued, and it seems to me like there's a political reason for that: Mainstream Rs and Ds want to keep doing those kinds of crimes when they're in power.

George Bush hasn't been tried for any crimes, but Trump has. You think the people who made those decisions didn't have politics in mind?

https://www.axios.com/2023/08/17/trump-prosecutions-timeline-republicans-democrats

[AsymDoll13]

29 minutes ago, Nationalize_The_Hoard said:

I get that perspective, but the timing of the indictments seems pretty suspicious to me. Reporting says DOJ & FBI waited over a year to start looking into Jan. 6 issues for Trump. To me, it reads like the Democrats and their allies waited to see if Trump was going to be running a credible campaign for 2024, and then as it became clear that Trump would be the most likely Republican candidate, they started ramping up the prosecution effort. My understanding is that Trump's guilty of a lot of war crimes and crimes of corruption, like getting foreign dignitaries to eat at his restaurant while he was president. I don't see any of those much more serious crimes being pursued, and it seems to me like there's a political reason for that: Mainstream Rs and Ds want to keep doing those kinds of crimes when they're in power.

George Bush hasn't been tried for any crimes, but Trump has. You think the people who made those decisions didn't have politics in mind?

https://www.axios.com/2023/08/17/trump-prosecutions-timeline-republicans-democrats

 

...It takes time to investigate? Like... I'm sure behind the scenes, there's been a lot of investigating. 

[Fuzzbucket]

17 hours ago, purplehaze said:

"The Dems" are not throwing him in prison. 4 separate grand juries have investigated and found cause to charge him with crimes. That is the way our legal system works. He is not above the law and despite what he says this is not political.

 

16 hours ago, trystan said:

 and those grand juries were made up of regular, everyday people.

 

3 hours ago, AsymDoll13 said:

 

...It takes time to investigate? Like... I'm sure behind the scenes, there's been a lot of investigating. 

 

Yes indeed. Several of those doing the investigating have said that they want to make sure any charges he deserves to face will stick. It's not yet 3 years since the insurrection, and all those cases needed to be heard, too.

[purplehaze]

And also, why are the Republicans, who have been investigating "the Biden crime family" for so long (with absolutely not one shred of proof so far of any wrongdoing on the part of Joe Biden) suddenly so intent on formally initiating impeachment proceedings? Tell me that is not political!

[trystan]

this was in my MSNBC newsletter today:

This conservative ‘mandate’ is a terrifying preview of Christianized government: The Department of Health and Human Services is supposed to promote the health of all Americans. But in a second Trump term, it could look far different.

yes, it's an opinion piece, but quite on point:

Quote

“We’re institutionalizing a change in the culture of government, beginning with HHS,” [Roger] Severino said at a launch event at HHS headquarters, “to never forget that religious freedom is primary freedom, that it is a civil right that deserves complete enforcement and respect.”

[Roger Severino, director of the HHS Office of Civil Rights under Trump.  Now at Heritage [Foundation], Severino is a lawyer and longtime anti-abortion and anti-LGBTQ rights activist]

i agree with the WORDS "that religious freedom is primary freedom"... but that's ALL religion, not just Xianity.

 

near the end, the article points out:

Quote

[H]is ambitions are obvious, and there’s no reason to doubt Trump would permit, like he did in his first term, the Christianization of HHS — especially as acolytes continue to praise him as a divinely anointed defender of the Christian nation.

 

except the US isn't an Xian nation.

Quote

The answer to all of these questions is no. The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws “respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” and in Article VI, which prohibits “religious tests” for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.

^from Is America a Christian Nation? (from Americans United for Separation of Church and State)

[AsymDoll13]

3 hours ago, trystan said:

this was in my MSNBC newsletter today:

This conservative ‘mandate’ is a terrifying preview of Christianized government: The Department of Health and Human Services is supposed to promote the health of all Americans. But in a second Trump term, it could look far different.

yes, it's an opinion piece, but quite on point:

i agree with the WORDS "that religious freedom is primary freedom"... but that's ALL religion, not just Xianity.

 

near the end, the article points out:

 

except the US isn't an Xian nation.

^from Is America a Christian Nation? (from Americans United for Separation of Church and State)

 

Separation of Church and State hasn't been practiced in some time in this country from what I can see. It's a problem that I've always noticed, like... why do I have to include God when I say the Pledge of Allegiance? The nation is meant to have freedom of religion. What religion? Only Christianity apparently... 

[trystan]

11 minutes ago, AsymDoll13 said:

It's a problem that I've always noticed, like... why do I have to include God when I say the Pledge of Allegiance? The nation is meant to have freedom of religion. What religion? Only Christianity apparently... 

1954 was when Eisenhower added "under god" to the pledge (https://www.history.com/news/pledge-allegiance-under-god-schools)

Quote

The push to add “under God” to the pledge gained momentum during the second Red Scare, a period when U.S. politicians were keen to assert the moral superiority of U.S. capitalism over Soviet communism, which many conservatives regarded as “godless.”

yep.

[AngelsSin]

https://thehill.com/homenews/4360407-congress-approves-bill-barring-president-withdrawing-nato/

[AsymDoll13]

21 hours ago, trystan said:

1954 was when Eisenhower added "under god" to the pledge (https://www.history.com/news/pledge-allegiance-under-god-schools)

 

I always just found it odd is all. 

[Aldarion]

On 12/12/2023 at 8:37 PM, purpledragonclaw said:

 

You avoided providing a source by saying the Left in other countries have done this. I'm asking you for a source for the Left in America doing this because the Right doing this in America at this point in history is unprecedented. Please show me where the left has done this in America. 

 

You also ignored where I said it doesn't matter which party does this, this kind of blatant fascism is bad no matter which party does it.

 

That Medium article is not the same thing as Project 2025. 

 

Other countries do indeed have right-leaning political parties. Fuzzbucket provided the UK as an example. France does as well.

 

The American Right you referenced I would argue has transformed into the MAGA movement, adapted as time has changed. Are you suggesting there is no Right party in America because they don't fit a definition that's been dead for 80 years? Who would you consider to be Right and Left in the U.S.?

 

To your comment on energy, I don't have a solution that would work for everyone.

How is it unprecedented?

 

Also, just look at what is happening at universities.

https://www.heritage.org/education/report/where-are-they-now-former-campus-radicals-the-workforce

 

I would consider Democrats to be Left in the US, Republicans to be center or somewhere around there at best. And yes, there are right-leaning political parties elsewhere, but all they amount to is basically background noise. In Croatia, left-wing parties hold the government and the opposition both. In Western Europe you may have right-wing parties in the opposition, but very little chance it will amount to anything.

 

And yes, I agree that it doesn't matter which party does it. Thing is however that a) it isn't just a party and b) Left has been doing it for far longer and been far more successful at it than the Right.

 

I find Moldbug's concept of Cathedral quite useful for understanding the whole situation.

On 12/12/2023 at 3:30 PM, Fuzzbucket said:

It certainly does. The UK has a thoroughly right leaning one right now. The Netherlands is at risk of one taking power. There are others. But clearly they aren't right-wing enough for you.

 

If you are saying UKIP, yes, they are right-wing. But I would hardly call them "major".

 

As for Netherlands, PVV may be individually the largest party right now, but they are still outweighted by a coalition of left-leaning parties, I think.

On 12/12/2023 at 3:30 PM, Fuzzbucket said:

Wind and wave power, for a start. Also geothermal.

Wind power not a solution. Not even close.

 

Wave power and geothermal may be, but they are also highly conditional. Not all areas can rely on them.

On 12/14/2023 at 12:31 AM, purplehaze said:

And also, why are the Republicans, who have been investigating "the Biden crime family" for so long (with absolutely not one shred of proof so far of any wrongdoing on the part of Joe Biden) suddenly so intent on formally initiating impeachment proceedings? Tell me that is not political!

Why do these two things have to be mutually exclusive? Modern politics in general are a waste dump.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Aldarion

[purpledragonclaw]

49 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

How is it unprecedented?

 

You're still not providing me with a source. And it's unprecedented because we have a sizeable chunk of the Republican party, including the 2024 leading presidential candidate, talking about jailing political opponents, locking non-Christians and immigrants in cages, and executing people who they feel have impeded their mission. Show me where the Left has done this in America ever, because that's the unprecedented situation I'm talking about.

 

You're providing a source from The Heritage Foundation, which is the Conservative thinktank that birthed Project 2025. Do you have a more neutral source?

 

You may consider the Democrats to be Left, but they are not. There are Democrats like AOC that are Left, but the majority of the party are not.

 

Quote

Why do these two things have to be mutually exclusive? Modern politics in general are a waste dump.

 

That last sentence I 100% agree with.

Edited December 15, 2023 by purpledragonclaw

[AngelsSin]

Rudy Giuliani has been ordered to pay $148+ million to the two election workers he defamed. As he should!

Edited December 16, 2023 by AngelsSin

[purplehaze]

9 minutes ago, AngelsSin said:

Rudy Giuliani has been ordered to pay $148+ million to the two election workers he defamed. As he should!

Glad to see him held accountable. But he still says he is not sorry for the remarks he made. And of course he plans to appeal.

Edited December 16, 2023 by purplehaze

[Fuzzbucket]

15 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Wind power not a solution. Not even close.

 

 

What exactly counts as right wing for you?

 

 

Several countries where wind is extensively used would disagree.  And take a look at the Orkneys. But as you are right, whatever I say, I'm out.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Fuzzbucket

[AngelsSin]

11 hours ago, purplehaze said:

Glad to see him held accountable. But he still says he is not sorry for the remarks he made. And of course he plans to appeal.

 

True, but i wasn't exactly surprised by that. As long as the appeals fail he will be held accountable unless Trump ends up President again and pardons him. He also has to live with his fallen reputation knowing as old as he is it is too late to repair it. Once America's favorite mayor now a laughing stock.

[Jamari]

The Biden White House arguably also left them no choice. The question of Hunter Biden’s unsavory business deals—and his father’s knowledge or involvement—might have been adjudicated by the public in 2020, had not a leftist cabal of journalists, social-media companies and former officials censored the Hunter laptop story. The House investigation has since unraveled a shocking tale of brazen Hunter influence-peddling and evidence that Joe, at the very least, helped his son sell the Biden “brand”—and was untruthful with the public about his knowledge of the family business.

www.msn.com

 

 

 

[trystan]

the Biden family?  what's Hunter's position in his father's Cabinet?

i think you mean the previous guy - his, uh... "Director of the Office of American Innovation"?

https://marytrump.substack.com/p/now-hunter-biden-indicted-but

[Jamari]

You fail to see the truth of the matter. I'm merely conveying a statement of fact from an unbiased source. Joe Biden was untruthful with the public. If you have a problem with the House of Representatives discovery of the facts as of Dec. 16 2023, you'll need to take that up with them.

[AngelsSin]

12 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 But as you are right, whatever I say, I'm out.

 

This was the reason that i never responded to them when they quoted me. Once i saw them talking about murdering babies i knew there would be no reasoning with them and opted to ignore it all. IMO, I have found those who scream about murdering babies are never wrong about anything.  And i just save my time/frustration. 

I could have said to them that by their definition of humanity/society being selfish/unable to rise above their baser nature they are admitting that they too are selfish and unable to raise above their baser nature. Lol. But i just couldn't be bothered with it though.

 

Like with my family and Trump you can wave the truth in front of their faces but they can't accept anything else but what they want to believe.

 

 

https://apnews.com/article/satanic-temple-display-vandalized-iowa-capitol-199fb41983a3f3a390b7be370214bb64

 

Former Republican candidate for Miss. House was arrested for this.

He describes himself as a “Christian conservative who loves our nation and is committed to preserving the blessings of liberty bestowed upon us by the Founding generation.”

 

Apparently doesn't understand religious liberty includes all religions.

Edited December 16, 2023 by AngelsSin