Abortion

[Omega Entity]

That may be the case, but it's realistically not feasible short of instating totalitarian measures to force, and enforce, people to do so. In a perfect world, it might work, but this world is extremely far from perfect.

[prpldrgnfr]

I would definitely donate to a planned parenthood facility if they were just helping and educating. I don't oppose offering aid at all. If a woman can't afford to carry a child on her own, there are many, many families that can't have children that would gladly help a woman financially, with food, doctors visits and anything else she may need. You can't use the excuse that they don't have access to things like that because everybody knows at least one person with a computer or knows where a library is and knows how to use Google. If you looked at all, you could find at least person/organization that would know how she could find a family that would help and take the baby afterwards. There are many churches that would help if they knew of the need. I personally would help anyone I knew that couldn't afford doctors appointments or anything else.

Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not pregnancy. What about the girls/women who can not, should not, or don't want to be pregnant?

[Brite]

I am saying that once there could be a person there, it deserves the right to grow, like everything else. As women, we need to take into account the fact that we are the keepers of all Human life.

 

Last time I checked, I wasn't an incubator.

 

If a woman can't afford to carry a child on her own, there are many, many families that can't have children that would gladly help a woman financially, with food, doctors visits and anything else she may need.

 

This "info" is almost poisonous. I'm not going to go into how greatly exaggerated the whole "many fameliez would want teh babeh!" again. Go read the thread. You'll be shocked.

[Starscream]

As a woman who has had to make this choice because, circumstances, funds, dangerous temper, and medication I was on at the time. It was the best choice. Absolutely the 100% best choice I have had to make - ever.

 

Especially currently where my financial situation is SO severe that there were days during the summer I forgo my meal so my husband can have enough to eat to maintain his energy at work. We both lost many pounds, and he really does not need to lose anymore - he is underweight. A child in that situation would have been a very sad child. I won't go into details surrounding it.

 

But it was medication I was on, that caused my cycle to hiccup. medication I was on would have caused harm to anything developing at the time.

 

Not to mention, I was morning, afternoon and evening sick. or just all day sick. I could not eat anything and hold it down.

 

The decision was made. It was agreed upon my my husband and myself. It was done.

 

No one on this planet has any right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my own body. No one on this planet can consider a parasitical mass of cells more important than my own well being.

 

I could so LIKE Omega Entity's post. They have hit the nail on the head.

 

[Rosedamai]

No, we don't desire for "women to suffer." That's absurd. We just don't want people to have legal access to murder. If what we say about abortion is true, "preventing" women from aborting children is exactly the same as "preventing" people from committing any other sort of homicide, or rather infanticide.

You DO want women to suffer. You just don't say it directly. A woman in Ireland died because her dovtors refused to give her an abortion. If that's not harming women I don't know what is.

[RebellBelle93]

That may be the case, but it's realistically not feasible short of instating totalitarian measures to force, and enforce, people to do so. In a perfect world, it might work, but this world is extremely far from perfect.

It starts with teaching the difference between want and need.

[Obscure_Trash]

There are many, many ways to prevent pregnancy.

 

Which aren't 100%.

 

As women, we need to take into account the fact that we are the keepers of all Human life. There is not one person on the face of this earth that didn't come from a woman (unless there's a human clone I'm not aware of).

 

1) Not all women are capable of becoming pregnant. Not all women are fertile. Not all women have a uterus. Some men do have a uterus. Some agender people have a uterus. Some genderflud, genderqueer, bigender, and other nonbinary people have a uterus.

2) No. I am not some poetic magical gatekeeper to life. I am a human being and if I, by some odd chance, became pregnant, that would not erase my personhood. An embryo or fetus is not more important than I am and I will not be treated like it is. I have choice over my body. An embryo or fetus leeches off my personhood. I have say over whether or not I shall allow that. Keep in mind we can't even do anything to a corpse unless the person specified that was allowed before they died.

 

If she got pregnant, she didn't do everything in her power. Preventing pregnancy is rather simple.

 

Except as said, contraception fails. Sex education sucks. Rape happens. Abusive relationships are more common than we want to admit. There are plenty of reasons why someone may get pregnant even if they tried to prevent it.

 

If a woman can't afford to carry a child on her own, there are many, many families that can't have children that would gladly help a woman financially, with food, doctors visits and anything else she may need.

 

And if a person can't afford the pregnancy or child but doesn't want to give it up for adoption?

 

For those with phobias of pregnancy? Who just plain don't want to be pregnant? Who may have a great health risk if they become pregnant? What then?

[edwardelricfreak]

There are many, many ways to prevent pregnancy.

 

I'm not saying any woman that doesn't want to get pregnant shouldn't have sex (although it is A 100% effective contraceptive), I am saying that once there could be a person there, it deserves the right to grow, like everything else. As women, we need to take into account the fact that we are the keepers of all Human life. There is not one person on the face of this earth that didn't come from a woman (unless there's a human clone I'm not aware of).

 

If she got pregnant, she didn't do everything in her power. Preventing pregnancy is rather simple.

 

I would definitely donate to a planned parenthood facility if they were just helping and educating. I don't oppose offering aid at all.

 

If a woman can't afford to carry a child on her own, there are many, many families that can't have children that would gladly help a woman financially, with food, doctors visits and anything else she may need. You can't use the excuse that they don't have access to things like that because everybody knows at least one person with a computer or knows where a library is and knows how to use Google.

 

If you looked at all, you could find at least person/organization that would know how she could find a family that would help and take the baby afterwards. There are many churches that would help if they knew of the need.

 

I personally would help anyone I knew that couldn't afford doctors appointments or anything else.

Yes, but they can fail. Even if you use the best combination of contraceptives, they can still *fail*. And not every contraceptive is compatible or affordable for everyone.

 

And *I* have the right to control MY life. I'm not going to let anything, not even a clump of cells, to take away *my* rights just so it can live when I *DON'T* want it. I am a PERSON. While I might have a uterus and all the parts necessary to bear a child, I DON'T want to, even if I do get pregnant (at least not right now...and I'm not even sure if I want to have a child in the future. MAYBE one, and MAYBE through adoption if anything).

 

I am *absolutely* offended by this statement. So it's all *my fault* that I get pregnant, even if I'm on the pill, my boyfriend uses a condom (properly), and we were to only have sex during the most "infertile" part of my cycle?

 

They ARE about helping and educating. They are *so* incredibly helpful with all the services they offer. And they are all about educating, especially to help people learn about sex so they hopefully don't even have to go through abortions in the future. If you don't think that's being all about helping and educating, then I'm not sure how to convince you that they are.

 

Amazingly, NOT everyone has access to people. And no, NOT everyone has access to a computer or even a library with computers, and not everyone knows how to use Google. I've seen them firsthand. It might be shocking in our culture but those people exist.

 

That still does *nothing* for those who don't want to be pregnant in the *first place*. Most churches will not help in most cases for needing contraceptives or abortion, just maybe adoption or convincing the mother to keep the baby. I, for one, would also feel very uncomfortable having to go to a church when I am atheist, even if they would still help me. :\

 

That's very good of you. I hope you will do as you say if those situations arose around you. c:

[Kestra15]

So Americans don't want abortions because it is murder, but they're happy to be armed and shoot to kill people on their property and support the death penalty?

 

Sometimes pregnancy will kill the mother because they physiologically cannot support the unborn fetus. At that point why should they let the fetus kill the mother? If the fetus is really a human life, then it is commiting both murder and suicide by killing the mother - which in American law means that it is eligible for the death penalty. Ergo abortion is simply an extension of pre-existing laws, and the termination of that life is actually a preventative action to stop a murderer committing homicide-suicide.

[edwardelricfreak]

So Americans don't want abortions because it is murder, but they're happy to be armed and shoot to kill people on their property and support the death penalty?

Well, with the shooting and killing, it's self-protection, and with the death penalty, clearly those dirty criminals deserved it >:C (which is another point: a lot of those incarcerated, and therefore many that *do* undergo capital punishment, were actually innocent. :\)

 

But no, fetuses can't speak for themselves and are people so killing them is cruel murder. x:

[Brite]

So Americans don't want abortions because it is murder, but they're happy to be armed and shoot to kill people on their property and support the death penalty?

 

Sometimes pregnancy will kill the mother because they physiologically cannot support the unborn fetus. At that point why should they let the fetus kill the mother? If the fetus is really a human life, then it is commiting both murder and suicide by killing the mother - which in American law means that it is eligible for the death penalty. Ergo abortion is simply an extension of pre-existing laws, and the termination of that life is actually a preventative action to stop a murderer committing homicide-suicide.

Hey! It's forbidden to use common sense in this country! Kill him, now!

[Birdwhispers]

For those with phobias of pregnancy? Who just plain don't want to be pregnant? Who may have a great health risk if they become pregnant? What then?

This. I am severely tokophobic (fear of pregnancy) and mildly-moderately paedophobic (fear of babies/young children). In addition, I am and have always been anaemic which leads to me being quite weak or, even at times, sickly. I would not, under any circumstance, be fit to have a child. Not now, not ever. However, I don't believe that I should have to never have sex in my life ever because of these issues. I would make sure everything is safe, but contraception (even in combination) is never 100% and that scares me. If I were ever to become pregnant, I would like to be assured that there is an option for me to abort, otherwise I would literally attack my own body (yes, the tokophobia is that serious. Even thinking about all this right now makes me want to pull myself apart.)

 

I'm sure there are others out there with similar issues and I find it hardly fair that if they were to get pregnant, then they'd have to suffer.

 

And no, despite my phobias, I am not some crazed evil baby killer who would just carelessly get an abortion without any regret. I'd still feel terrible. Hardly anyone doesn't in that situation. I just know that, if it came down to it, it would be the safest option for me and most likely others as well.

 

I believe every woman has the choice to do what she wants with her body. She should not be treated as a vessel and should be able to have an abortion no matter her reason. There is such a large spectrum of individual cases that you can't just pick and choose which women can and cannot abort.

 

 

[Rosedamai]

Well, with the shooting and killing, it's self-protection, and with the death penalty, clearly those dirty criminals deserved it >:C (which is another point: a lot of those incarcerated, and therefore many that *do* undergo capital punishment, were actually innocent. :\)

 

But no, fetuses can't speak for themselves and are people so killing them is cruel murder. x:

Ha yeah. Technically you can also argue that in cases where the fetus will kill the mother it is a form of self-protection to abort the fetus. But nooooo we never talk about that, it's always those dirty scary strangers!!

[KageSora]

There are many, many ways to prevent pregnancy. I'm not saying any woman that doesn't want to get pregnant shouldn't have sex (although it is A 100% effective contraceptive), I am saying that once there could be a person there, it deserves the right to grow, like everything else. As women, we need to take into account the fact that we are the keepers of all Human life. There is not one person on the face of this earth that didn't come from a woman (unless there's a human clone I'm not aware of). If she got pregnant, she didn't do everything in her power. Preventing pregnancy is rather simple.

 

I would definitely donate to a planned parenthood facility if they were just helping and educating. I don't oppose offering aid at all. If a woman can't afford to carry a child on her own, there are many, many families that can't have children that would gladly help a woman financially, with food, doctors visits and anything else she may need. You can't use the excuse that they don't have access to things like that because everybody knows at least one person with a computer or knows where a library is and knows how to use Google. If you looked at all, you could find at least person/organization that would know how she could find a family that would help and take the baby afterwards. There are many churches that would help if they knew of the need. I personally would help anyone I knew that couldn't afford doctors appointments or anything else.

Actually, she damn well could have. Rape happens. Birth control failure happens. Abuse in the form of a partner tampering with birth control happens. These are things that happen, and there is no 100% safe way to ensure zero pregnancy except the idea of never, ever, ever having sex as long as you're physically capable of bearing a child.

 

Many women won't sterilize themselves because they may want a child later. Other times it's because it's damn near impossible in a lot of places unless you're over a certain age AND already have two kids--apparently you don't really know what you want and you're going to want kids later, so you're not allowed to remove your ability to have children.

 

Sure, you can argue a clump of cells has the right to live. I argue that I have the right to use my body as I see fit, and that includes evicting an unwelcome squatter. :|

 

BTW, are you alright with the idea of grabbing people off the street and forcing them to donate blood or a kidney (if they their second one intact), or bone marrow, or plasma, etc.? Because if you're not alright with forcing people to donate even if they don't want to, then you're a hypocrite if you think women should be forced to support a life they don't want to support.

 

Additionally, as has been said, adoption is an alternative to PARENTING, not to PREGNANCY. Additionally, the adoption system is horrible. And just because you find a family through a church doesn't mean the child won't be abused or neglected. I mean, religious people are hardly better than non-religious people. We have too many church scandals for that idea to hold up. Adoption hardly guarantees a wonderful life for the kid.

 

If I'm not mistaken, China is a communist country and people there are only allowed one child per household. India has many places that aren't over populated. People choose to live in such densely populated areas. I personally would never EVER have an abortion. I have a two month old daughter and the though of not having her or someone choosing to end such a small, defenseless, beautiful life nearly brings tears to my eyes. I don't believe its a matter of choice so much as it is whether its legal to end a life.

Overpopulation is, in fact, a real thing.

 

It may seem like people are choosing to live in dense areas, or that there's a ton of wide-open space, but the fact is that people tend to gather where living is possible. There are a lot of places where the harsh climate or other natural phenomena such as the terrain or susceptibility to natural disasters make living difficult if not impossible. In many such places the land can only support a small group of people because too many more would either be unmanageable in such circumstances or resources are too scarce to provide for them.

 

Antarctica is a huge place, but it's not really viable to have mass human population there, for instance. Deserts, also, can cover vast areas but living in them is difficult.

 

Additionally, even if you have a large amount of space that doesn't mean you'll have the resources necessary to support human population. Our global population can only get so big before demand for resources surpasses what exists--that's one reason why we need to look into making usage of renewable resources much more wide-spread. We can't afford to keep consuming non-renewable ones at the rate we do, and an increasing population is simply going to continue to put more and more strain on already rapidly depleting resources.

 

Pretty much this. ANYTHING can have it's risks. And just because there's risks, does that mean we shouldn't do it? If not, the over 90% of our activity would cease to exist. So bringing up the "risks" are obsolete. Pro-birthers also like to weave lies into those risks. My favorite light is the breast cancer one, and here's a new one, sucking out your uterus.

Wait, they say an abortion can suck out my uterus?

 

QUICK! I NEED TO GET PREGNANT SO I CAN HAVE AN ABORTION! MAYBE I'LL GET LUCKY AND IT'LL TAKE THE UTERUS WITH IT!

[Omega Entity]

On self-defense and soldiers.

 

Darn straight I'm going to try and remove the threat by any means necessary - if they break into my -home-. To shoot someone just because they're on your property is just plain dumb. Depending on the state, you may one may not use lethal force. Mine happens to be one that allows it.

 

Soldiers are trained to kill, and the US certainly isn't the only nation with an armed military - far from it. However, though many support our troops, I'd date say most of those disagree with how they're used, as far as the government's agenda (myself included). You can support the troops without supporting what they're ordered to do.

 

Agendas aside, war is, unfortunately, a necessary thing, whether we like it or not. Sometimes there simply isn't a way to remedy a situation peacefully, especially when dealing with the worst of the worst of dictaorships. WWII, anyone?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Omega Entity

[RebellBelle93]

This. I am severely tokophobic (fear of pregnancy) and mildly-moderately paedophobic (fear of babies/young children). In addition, I am and have always been anaemic which leads to me being quite weak or, even at times, sickly. I would not, under any circumstance, be fit to have a child. Not now, not ever. However, I don't believe that I should have to never have sex in my life ever because of these issues. I would make sure everything is safe, but contraception (even in combination) is never 100% and that scares me. If I were ever to become pregnant, I would like to be assured that there is an option for me to abort, otherwise I would literally attack my own body (yes, the tokophobia is that serious. Even thinking about all this right now makes me want to pull myself apart.)

 

I'm sure there are others out there with similar issues and I find it hardly fair that if they were to get pregnant, then they'd have to suffer.

 

And no, despite my phobias, I am not some crazed evil baby killer who would just carelessly get an abortion without any regret. I'd still feel terrible. Hardly anyone doesn't in that situation. I just know that, if it came down to it, it would be the safest option for me and most likely others as well.

 

I believe every woman has the choice to do what she wants with her body. She should not be treated as a vessel and should be able to have an abortion no matter her reason. There is such a large spectrum of individual cases that you can't just pick and choose which women can and cannot abort.

In situations like yours, where it is physically, mentally, or emotionally impossible to carry a baby I can understand having an abortion. I can't, however, condone a perfectly healthy woman, with the means and capability to continue pregnancy, getting an abortion simply because "she doesn't want to be pregnant". Yes, women that can't carry a child, are victims of rape or abuse, should have access to a safe abortion, but those aren't the only women that get abortions. Women are definitely more than incubators, but we all know the risks when we have sex.

[RebellBelle93]

Have we lost all value of life? Have we really become so indifferent that a small, innocent, defenseless life, even if it has yet to be born, has no more importance than a grain of rice or a few cells? Maybe I'm just a hippie, I'm old fashioned, or maybe I'm out of touch with the world but I value life. I believe that a baby, even if it isn't much bigger than a few cells, should have the chance to become the person they're meant to be. They should have the chance your mother gave you. No, a woman that was the victim of abuse, or rape, shouldn't have to carry the spawn of her attacker, but women that are just careless or irresponsible shouldn't have an easy way out. They shouldn't be able to say a few words and erase the life they brought into the world. That's exactly what a fetus is. A life. No matter how small. That is a living being and no one should have the right to decide that this life has no importance, is no more than some cells clumped together. We are all just cells clumped together, we're just a little bigger and able to speak for ourselves. We have the duty and the obligation to speak for the innocent and defenseless. When it's you that no longer has a voice or cannot defend yourself, you'll want someone to speak for you, too.

[brairtrainer]

In situations like yours, where it is physically, mentally, or emotionally impossible to carry a baby I can understand having an abortion. I can't, however, condone a perfectly healthy woman, with the means and capability to continue pregnancy, getting an abortion simply because "she doesn't want to be pregnant". Yes, women that can't carry a child, are victims of rape or abuse, should have access to a safe abortion, but those aren't the only women that get abortions. Women are definitely more than incubators, but we all know the risks when we have sex.

Except sex is used for more than reproduction. There are studies out there that state that people tend to be healthier and happier (especially if they are in a relationship) if they are meeting their body's need for sex. Meaning, if a man or woman or couple felt a higher need to have sex more often, then induging in this need is healthy (though people can over do it.)

 

Stating that 'you know the risks' is basicly punishing women who inherit a high sex drive. It does, and is, the same thougt along the lines of shaming. You're basicly punisihing women who have sex with a baby. No baby should be born to punish the mother.

[edwardelricfreak]

In situations like yours, where it is physically, mentally, or emotionally impossible to carry a baby I can understand having an abortion. I can't, however, condone a perfectly healthy woman, with the means and capability to continue pregnancy, getting an abortion simply because "she doesn't want to be pregnant". Yes, women that can't carry a child, are victims of rape or abuse, should have access to a safe abortion, but those aren't the only women that get abortions. Women are definitely more than incubators, but we all know the risks when we have sex.

Wow, ok. So it's still *all my fault* if I were to get pregnant. I'm not allowed to get an abortion just because I'm healthy and even though I *thought* the contraceptives worked. Even emotions and mental state aside, I am *not* spending a ton of money on all of the prenatal vitamins, the various tests, and the actual delivery itself, NOR am I spending a ton of money on the food, clothes, toys, diapers, etc that are necessary for having to raise *a helpless bag of meat*. :\

You can take it, if you want, though.

 

I'm just so *tired* of hearing "it's only okay for this, this, and this but everyone else can go suck it up and deal". I really don't think you (general you) understand what you're saying when you tell someone that. :\

 

Children are EXPENSIVE, NOT everyone makes a good parent (even if they're mentally, emotionally, and physically and even financially stable), and hell no I am not putting that child up for adoption and make them suffer through possibly *NEVER* getting adopted. The adoption system is a lie, presented as some heavenly blessing covered in rainbows and fairy dust but it's absolutely awful.

 

Do you want to know a lot of the facts about pregnancy, adoption, and abortion? The first post has this to say on foster care:

First, let's review some facts. Let's start with the adoption system, Child Protective Services, etc.

 

In 2005, there were a reported number of over 500,000 children in foster care. That's half a million children who're considered wards of the state. Out of those half a million children, only 200,000 found themselves out of foster care, either by adoption (18%), being returned to the home in which they were taken from (54%), was taken by a relative or guardian (15%), were emancipated (9%) or other (4%). Other could be, and probably is, a child turning 18 and being released. However, that is only 200,000 children who left, leaving nearly or over 300,000 in foster care. About 30% of children in foster care have severe emotional, behavioral, or developmental problems. Health problems are also very common.

 

Each State has it's own definition of what is considered "child abuse". In 2006, an estimated 905,000 children were victims of maltreatment. Nearly 3.6 million children received a CPS (Child Protective Services) investigation or assessment. Of the children who received an investigation, approximately one-quarter (25.2%) were determined to have been abused or neglected. Based on a victim rate of 12.1 per 1,000 children, an estimated 905,000 children were found to be victims in the 52 States.

 

During FFY 2006, an estimated 1,530 children (compared to 1,460 children for FFY 2005) died from abuse or neglect—at a rate of 2.04 deaths per 100,000 children. More than three-quarters (78.0%) of children who were killed were younger than 4 years of age, 11.9 percent were 4–7 years of age, 4.8 percent were 8–11 years of age, and 5.4 percent were 12–17 years of age.

 

There were an estimated 1,530 child fatality victims;

Approximately one-fifth (17.6%) of child fatality data were reported from agencies other than child welfare; and

More than three-quarters (78.0%) of child fatality victims were younger than 4 years.

I also went and searched through *this entire thread* to find one user's posts that had a bunch of facts and posted them right here, but I can post them again:

A doctor can and will refuse to abort to save the life of the mother:

 

47% of puerperal maternal death is from doctors refusing to administer life-saving medical procedures which would prolong the mother's life but pose risk to the fetus.  74% of those cases are because of the doctor's morals and the "conscience clause." Of that number, 22% of those pregnancies were before the legal cutoff for abortion in the United States.

 

(Puerperal Death, Infant and Maternal, 2008, The Journal of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, Dr. Meredith Fresquez and Joan Christodoulou-Smith)

10 million women attempt suicide every year. 4 million because of pregnancy. In the US alone, 14,000 women committed suicide because of their pregnancies in 2009. Another 3,000 were inconclusive with suicide suspected.

 

If they can't afford a baby, how are they going to afford to put a baby up for adoption?

 

----

 

The point that they're making, is that when abortion is illegal in the united states, infanticide goes up 25% and child abuse goes up 46%, and that's cases that are reported.

 

----

 

see my statistics above. Also to add to that --Of children in chronic children's wards, or those with congenital diseases, 87% wish that they'd never been born. Of those, 2-6% under 12 attempt suicide every year for the second or more time. 14-20% attempt it for the first time.

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

only 8% of abortions are "irresponsible" people who knew it was possible for them to get pregnant and didn't bother with birth control, right?

 

And no federal money, once again, funds abortion.

 

And, only 2-3% of the children given up for adoption (when people actually have the money to do it) are actually adopted. The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

Okay, touching on things quickly.

 

Unfortunately, we do not, in this country, teach proper birth control and even when we do, it is not an option for everyone, nor is it always effective. Birth control is often tampered with by partners of both genders.  Did you know, for example, that over a 25% of abortions occur because a partner lied that they were sterile, or tampered with birth control?

 

The number of married women, or women in serious, long-term committed relationships aborting is steadily increasing.

 

----

 

Only 2-3% of children given up for adoption will be adopted. (2010 Social Services Survey and Census of Adoption and Foster Systems in the United States)

 

Further, for quality of life of those not adopted:

 

1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

Further, adoption is prohibitively expensive:

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor's visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

So, fact time!

 

A. Only 10% of women who have abortions knew or understood that they were not protected at the time.

 

B. Between 25-30% of abortions are caused by fraud -- a partner lying about sterility or tampering with birth control.

 

C. It is illegal to be sterilized against your will in the US.

 

D. it is also illegal to be sterilized in most states, unless you are over 35 and already have two children, unless there is a pressing health reason, despite not wanting to have children.

 

E. The majority of abortions are those well above the poverty line.

 

F. Not everyone can use certain kinds of birth control for various health or moral reasons and NFP is unreliable.

 

G. Abstinence sex-ed doesn't teach how to avoid pregnancy beyond "don't do it." We need to fix the education system.

Considering that 1 in 3 people will have a partner tamper with birth control or lie about their fertility, statistically -- yes you are.  The majority of children in this world were unplanned (as high as 82%). Obviously, the number that abort, unplanned goes up, but not by much (84%)

 

----

 

You are 74% more likely to have any sort of complication with birth than with abortion. Of those that have complications from abortion, less than 5% affect sterility, and less than 1% pose any threat to life. That's much lower than with birth.

 

(US CDC National Center For Health Statistics, Risk of Maternal Complications During Birth, Spontaneous Abortion and Clinical Abortion, 2011)

I see the Box O' Statistics is still infamous.

 

So, here we go.

 

Only 1-2% of children who are given up to the state for adoption are being adopted.

 

In children who are not adopted, 73% will state that they wish they had been aborted.

 

61% will state that their parents were selfish for not aborting them.

 

1 in 5 under twelve will attempt suicide before the year is out.

 

1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they were never born.

 

The average age of social workers placing children on suicide watch nationwide has dropped from fourteen to 12.

 

In states where abortion rights have been restricted since 2010, the incidence in abuse and neglect of infants has risen 45% (with a 2% margin of error.)

 

Suicides of pregnant women are up 31% (4% margin of error as knowledge is hard to determine.)

 

The average cost for giving a child up for adoption, after medical bills and care, has risen an average of $3,525 in the continental US.

Here's my view on abortion v. adoption. Why would you be against preventing a fetus suffering before it has any guarantee of being human rather than put them into a system where they have a 88% chance of being molested or abused, a 90% chance of attempting suicide -- when we know for a fact through studies that 97% of the children failed to be adopted in the 18-month window will actively state (some as early as five) that they wish they had never been born?

 

---

 

So, to tell me, who works in social services and still works as an "other options" counselor at a clinic that I have so "see thigns from all sides" and throwing the numbers of how many abortions have happened at me -- why not look at the numbers of how many children are put in care every year?

How many are in care at any given time because of abuse (over 400,000)

How many children are proven to be neglected each year: (872,000)

How many die on average due to neglect in the home (2,560)

How many are put in care because they were not adopted (120,000 in 2004, which has since risen to triple that)

How many fatalities for under-five year olds are due to neglect (76%)

How many calls CPS gets each year (3.2 million)

How many cases actually get investigated: (64%)

How many cases investigated get rereported (22%)

 

And you want to put more children in the system? I already work overtime every week, am on-call when I'm not at work, and have been shot twice.

 

~~~~~~~

 

Have we lost all value of life? Have we really become so indifferent that a small, innocent, defenseless life, even if it has yet to be born, has no more importance than a grain of rice or a few cells? Maybe I'm just a hippie, I'm old fashioned, or maybe I'm out of touch with the world but I value life. I believe that a baby, even if it isn't much bigger than a few cells, should have the chance to become the person they're meant to be. They should have the chance your mother gave you. No, a woman that was the victim of abuse, or rape, shouldn't have to carry the spawn of her attacker, but women that are just careless or irresponsible shouldn't have an easy way out. They shouldn't be able to say a few words and erase the life they brought into the world. That's exactly what a fetus is. A life. No matter how small. That is a living being and no one should have the right to decide that this life has no importance, is no more than some cells clumped together. We are all just cells clumped together, we're just a little bigger and able to speak for ourselves. We have the duty and the obligation to speak for the innocent and defenseless. When it's you that no longer has a voice or cannot defend yourself, you'll want someone to speak for you, too.

Excuse me? Just because I believe someone should have the right to get an abortion and the fact that I would *gladly* have one when I did NOT want to be pregnant does not mean I don't value life. That is a horrible way to try to emotionally manipulate people. Your arguments are based on emotional appeal alone that's trying to masquerade as ethical appeals.

 

I don't purposefully kill for the fun of it. I would never purposefully kill anyone or anything without good reason. Be it food, self defense, or because *I don't want a child*, those are definitely good reasons. I also *refuse* to put any child I potentially have into the adoption system.

 

Abortions are, surprisingly very mature and responsible decisions. They are NOT some *easy way out*. If you're trying to say that they are, you're basically punishing someone with having a child. Children should not be a PUNISHMENT. You're also sex shaming in this case. I for one would *not* be happy if I were *forced* to keep a child I *did not want* just because contraception fails or I accidentally goof up and forget it or anything of the sort.

Edited September 23, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[Obscure_Trash]

I can't, however, condone a perfectly healthy -replaced with person-, with the means and capability to continue pregnancy, getting an abortion simply because "-replaced with they- doesn't want to be pregnant". Yes, -replaced with person- that can't carry a child, are victims of rape or abuse, should have access to a safe abortion, but those aren't the only -replaced with person- that get abortions. -replaced with person- are definitely more than incubators, but we all know the risks when we have sex.

(I replaced cissexist language in this quote. It's a problem I've had with this thread in general; your post is getting 'updated' since you're the one I'm quoting.)

 

What defines healthy? Is it healthy for a person who does not want to be pregnant to be pregnant?

 

Pregnancy is, usually, nine months long and is very risky.

 

Every minute, at least one person dies from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth – that means 529 000 persons a year.

For every person who dies in childbirth, around 20 more suffer injury, infection or disease – approximately 10 million women each year.

Some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are 10 times more likely to die within two years of their mothers’ death.

99% of all maternal deaths occur in developing countries.

Maternal mortality is higher in women living in rural areas and among poorer communities.

Young adolescents face a higher risk of complications and death as a result of pregnancy than older persons.

 

http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/

 

Not to mention all the risks listed here: http://doulaness.tumblr.com/post/54078236832 If you aren't sure what one on the list is (I certainly was unsure of several!), I beg you to spend a half hour just googling them all and reading the basic symptoms. It's shocking and terrifying.

 

Pregnancy in and of itself is a ginormous health risk, even to the healthy. Did you know that the US' maternity death rates have been rising? (And woc are primarily the largest victims of this poor health care.)

 

Is it healthy to strain yourself and your family trying to support the fetus in your uterus?

 

57% of the persons obtaining abortions experienced a potentially disruptive event within the last year, most commonly unemployment (20%), separation from a partner (16%), falling behind on rent/mortgage (14%) and/or moving multiple times (12%)

 

http://jfprhc.bmj.com/content/early/2012/0...100311.abstract

 

23% aren’t ready for another child.

19% can’t afford a child.

8% have other dependents that are relying on them.

7% don’t want to be a single parent or are having relationship problems.

4% are pursuing educational opportunities.

4% have health concerns for themselves.

3% have fetal health concerns.

 

http://beautyisinside.com/wp-content/uploa...veAbortions.jpg

 

69% of persons seeking an abortion are already economically disadvantaged.

 

http://www.guttmacher.org/graphics/infogra...veAbortions.png

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor’s visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

Is it healthy to force unready persons to raise a child? Raise a child. You know, a small, helpless human being that depends on you for: financial security, emotional security, emotional support, financial stability, physical support, food, shelter, and love? To teach them right from wrong? How to deal with life in general?

 

25% of persons don’t believe they are mature or responsible enough to raise a child.

 

http://beautyisinside.com/wp-content/uploa...veAbortions.jpg

 

Is it healthy to go through with pregnancy when you weren't taught the risks of sex? How to properly use contraception? How to properly read your body? Keeping the abuse stats in here as they're relevant overall, even if not to this question.

 

Most of the persons seeking early abortion are either very young or in the late part of their reproductive life. Young people are often coerced into unwanted pregnancies by their partners, or they didn’t think or know that they could get pregnant. Some of the older persons think they couldn’t get pregnant because they were “too old.”

Half of the abortions done in the US are done because of birth control failure.

A third of persons who have abortions had a partner who sabotaged their birth control method.

 

http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/t...rom-an-abortion

 

And on adoption, did you know:

 

The majority of people who want children are unable to adopt, and as it is, only 2-3% of children [this was 2010, in 2011 this dropped to 1-2%] given up at birth to be adopted through the state are actually adopted.

The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

1 in 3 [children in foster care] will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted.

16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. Another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time.

In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010 (Gathered by ShinyTomato earlier in this thread, several times.)

 

Have you ever talked to people who gave up children for adoption? It's a startling realizing to have, how little support they have. How hard it is for them, never mind the child.

 

http://www.shakesville.com/2009/03/breakin...pro-lifers.html

http://herbadmother.com/2008/08/lost-boy/

 

And did you know these facts about denying pregnant people abortions?

 

Pregnant persons denied abortions are more likely to fall into poverty due to the cost of pregnancy, having to miss days to go to the hospital for appointments, and little to no paid maternity leave, never mind the cost of raising or adopting out a child.

Pregnant persons denied an abortion are less likely to leave an abusive relationship. (The risk of an abusive partner killing the victim/survivor goes up to like 73% when they try to leave.)

 

You propose that abortion is fine in certain circumstances: rape or abuse. Did you know we have shockingly little actual convictions for rapists and abusers? There are stories out there about how police discourage victims and survivors from reporting. When they do, they are made to relive their hell several times over. It's emotionally draining and expensive. You can lose your job. You can (and will) lose friends and family over what you are saying about who.

 

Did you know rapists can sue for custody of the children produced from their rape?

 

For several reasons, many rapists and abusers go free. Many never even see trial. So how, pray tell, would you suggest weeding out pregnant people who have been raped or abused from those who have not? It's likely the victims/survivors of abuse are sneaking in to get the abortion already. Put a big trial on show and their partners are guaranteed to find out. Make abortion only available to victims/survivors of rape and abuse and none of them will ever come.

 

Finally, consenting to sex is not consenting to pregnancy. When you consent to ride in or drive a car, you are not consenting to getting in an accident. You have an expectation that you will be given proper medical care should an emergency arise. Abortion should not be exempt from this. It is a medical procedure. A valid medical procedure.

 

Have we really become so indifferent that a small, innocent, defenseless life, even if it has yet to be born, has no more importance than a grain of rice or a few cells?

 

Have we really become so indifferent that a living, breathing person with personhood has less rights, less importance, less right to live than the clump of cells growing within them?

 

I believe that a baby, even if it isn't much bigger than a few cells, should have the chance to become the person they're meant to be.

 

Wait. Who's talking about babies??? We are not talking about babies here. We are talking about embryos and fetuses, not babies.

 

but women that are just careless or irresponsible shouldn't have an easy way out.

 

And there it is. This isn't about preservation of life. It is about teaching (cis) women a lesson for taking control of their own sexuality.

 

If you can read all of the above and still honestly believe abortion is "the easy way out" we will get nowhere and I will not really be interested in trying any further. Nobody chooses abortion like they choose what soda they want.

 

That's exactly what a fetus is. A life. No matter how small.

 

If you are attempting to allude to Dr. Suess here, you should know he was pretty staunchly pro-choice and his wife has sued pro-life crowds for stealing his words from Horton Hears a Who.

 

If not, why have we forgotten that the pregnant person is also a life? They do not suddenly stop mattering just because a few, easily replaceable, clump of cells inside of them. (A clump of cells which, btw, can become a tumor rather than a life.)

 

We are all just cells clumped together, we're just a little bigger and able to speak for ourselves. We have the duty and the obligation to speak for the innocent and defenseless. When it's you that no longer has a voice or cannot defend yourself, you'll want someone to speak for you, too.

 

Embryo's and abortable fetuses cannot feel pain. They have no sentience. They have no personhood. They have no voice. They don't need anyone speaking for them.

 

The pregnant person, however, is quite capable of feeling, of being. They do have a voice. Why are we silencing them? Protect choice at all costs.

[edwardelricfreak]

Embryo's and abortable fetuses cannot feel pain. They have no sentience. They have no personhood. They have no voice. They don't need anyone speaking for them.

 

The pregnant person, however, is quite capable of feeling, of being. They do have a voice. Why are we silencing them? Protect choice at all costs.

Yes Socky thank you!!

 

One thing that I forgot to post before, in response to the same post Sock replied to:

 

Why do *I* have to EVER take the back seat to a child? Why don't *I* get a say in what goes on in *my* body, in *my* life? If an when I am ready and have a child, I still will *not* be taking the back seat to them. They do not and will not control my life. Yes, they will be a part of my life and as a parent I will teach them and care for them but they do NOT control me. *I don't care* that I was born with a uterus, it does NOT make me an object. It makes me a person with a uterus capable of bearing more future-people but I am NOT an object. I am NOT an incubator. I am NOT a baby-making machine. If I could, I would tear out my uterus so I wouldn't have to deal with others trying to force that label onto me just because I have one.

 

Yes, because I am a cis woman and have a working uterus, I am capable of producing more (imo unneeded) life, but if I don't think that is or should ever be my *only* purpose, then it's not my only purpose. I was not born just to pop out more children. I don't WANT to pop out more children. I want to live MY life the way *I damn well want*. I have my own dreams that don't involve procreating, thank you very much. I have my own emotions, which at this point in time, are near to bursting at how infuriating this situation is, and as such, I'm going to go take some time to go calm down.

[KageSora]

Have we lost all value of life? Have we really become so indifferent that a small, innocent, defenseless life, even if it has yet to be born, has no more importance than a grain of rice or a few cells? Maybe I'm just a hippie, I'm old fashioned, or maybe I'm out of touch with the world but I value life. I believe that a baby, even if it isn't much bigger than a few cells, should have the chance to become the person they're meant to be. They should have the chance your mother gave you. No, a woman that was the victim of abuse, or rape, shouldn't have to carry the spawn of her attacker, but women that are just careless or irresponsible shouldn't have an easy way out. They shouldn't be able to say a few words and erase the life they brought into the world. That's exactly what a fetus is. A life. No matter how small. That is a living being and no one should have the right to decide that this life has no importance, is no more than some cells clumped together. We are all just cells clumped together, we're just a little bigger and able to speak for ourselves. We have the duty and the obligation to speak for the innocent and defenseless. When it's you that no longer has a voice or cannot defend yourself, you'll want someone to speak for you, too.

I value life greatly--the thing is, a pregnant individual is a life in the sense that xe is an actual person. A clump of cells that may not even survive to become a human baby or may not survive long after is not a person. It is a "life" in the same way that the bacteria that make you sick or can kill you are "lives". It is not a person. Through any number of natural causes it may never come to be a person. In the time when most abortions are performed (with many if not most/all those performed later being for things like medical reasons), there is every chance that a "spontaneous abortion" or miscarriage will occur, that the fetus will become a calcified mass or a tumor, that it will form but be stillborn, or that it will develop birth defects that make survival outside the womb impossible.

 

All of that and more (since I'm hardly an expert) can happen to any fetus, conception is far from a guarantee of personhood. So yes, I value life--I value the life that exists over the "life" that is purely potential.

 

 

Additionally, pregnancy is not sunshine and rainbows and happy fun times for everybody. Pregnancy, aside from the general unpleasantness that's stereotypical like mood swings and cravings and whatnot is also things like puking your guts up any time of the day or night, hard times sleeping, having something kick your insides sometimes, etc. It can be fatal, IIRC it's riskier to give birth than to abort. It can have permanent alterations to the body.

 

Not wanting to risk permanent damage to your body seems like a damn fine reason to refuse to carry to term to me.

[RebellBelle93]

(I replaced cissexist language in this quote. It's a problem I've had with this thread in general; your post is getting 'updated' since you're the one I'm quoting.)

 

What defines healthy? Is it healthy for a person who does not want to be pregnant to be pregnant?

 

Pregnancy is, usually, nine months long and is very risky.

 

Every minute, at least one person dies from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth – that means 529 000 persons a year.

For every person who dies in childbirth, around 20 more suffer injury, infection or disease – approximately 10 million women each year.

Some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are 10 times more likely to die within two years of their mothers’ death.

99% of all maternal deaths occur in developing countries.

Maternal mortality is higher in women living in rural areas and among poorer communities.

Young adolescents face a higher risk of complications and death as a result of pregnancy than older persons.

 

http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/

 

Not to mention all the risks listed here: http://doulaness.tumblr.com/post/54078236832 If you aren't sure what one on the list is (I certainly was unsure of several!), I beg you to spend a half hour just googling them all and reading the basic symptoms. It's shocking and terrifying.

 

Pregnancy in and of itself is a ginormous health risk, even to the healthy. Did you know that the US' maternity death rates have been rising? (And woc are primarily the largest victims of this poor health care.)

 

Is it healthy to strain yourself and your family trying to support the fetus in your uterus?

 

57% of the persons obtaining abortions experienced a potentially disruptive event within the last year, most commonly unemployment (20%), separation from a partner (16%), falling behind on rent/mortgage (14%) and/or moving multiple times (12%)

 

http://jfprhc.bmj.com/content/early/2012/0...100311.abstract

 

23% aren’t ready for another child.

19% can’t afford a child.

8% have other dependents that are relying on them.

7% don’t want to be a single parent or are having relationship problems.

4% are pursuing educational opportunities.

4% have health concerns for themselves.

3% have fetal health concerns.

 

http://beautyisinside.com/wp-content/uploa...veAbortions.jpg

 

69% of persons seeking an abortion are already economically disadvantaged.

 

http://www.guttmacher.org/graphics/infogra...veAbortions.png

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor’s visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

Is it healthy to force unready persons to raise a child? Raise a child. You know, a small, helpless human being that depends on you for: financial security, emotional security, emotional support, financial stability, physical support, food, shelter, and love? To teach them right from wrong? How to deal with life in general?

 

25% of persons don’t believe they are mature or responsible enough to raise a child.

 

http://beautyisinside.com/wp-content/uploa...veAbortions.jpg

 

Is it healthy to go through with pregnancy when you weren't taught the risks of sex? How to properly use contraception? How to properly read your body? Keeping the abuse stats in here as they're relevant overall, even if not to this question.

 

Most of the persons seeking early abortion are either very young or in the late part of their reproductive life. Young people are often coerced into unwanted pregnancies by their partners, or they didn’t think or know that they could get pregnant. Some of the older persons think they couldn’t get pregnant because they were “too old.”

Half of the abortions done in the US are done because of birth control failure.

A third of persons who have abortions had a partner who sabotaged their birth control method.

 

http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/t...rom-an-abortion

 

And on adoption, did you know:

 

The majority of people who want children are unable to adopt, and as it is, only 2-3% of children [this was 2010, in 2011 this dropped to 1-2%] given up at birth to be adopted through the state are actually adopted.

The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

1 in 3 [children in foster care] will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted.

16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. Another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time.

In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010 (Gathered by ShinyTomato earlier in this thread, several times.)

 

Have you ever talked to people who gave up children for adoption? It's a startling realizing to have, how little support they have. How hard it is for them, never mind the child.

 

http://www.shakesville.com/2009/03/breakin...pro-lifers.html

http://herbadmother.com/2008/08/lost-boy/

 

And did you know these facts about denying pregnant people abortions?

 

Pregnant persons denied abortions are more likely to fall into poverty due to the cost of pregnancy, having to miss days to go to the hospital for appointments, and little to no paid maternity leave, never mind the cost of raising or adopting out a child.

Pregnant persons denied an abortion are less likely to leave an abusive relationship. (The risk of an abusive partner killing the victim/survivor goes up to like 73% when they try to leave.)

 

You propose that abortion is fine in certain circumstances: rape or abuse. Did you know we have shockingly little actual convictions for rapists and abusers? There are stories out there about how police discourage victims and survivors from reporting. When they do, they are made to relive their hell several times over. It's emotionally draining and expensive. You can lose your job. You can (and will) lose friends and family over what you are saying about who.

 

Did you know rapists can sue for custody of the children produced from their rape?

 

For several reasons, many rapists and abusers go free. Many never even see trial. So how, pray tell, would you suggest weeding out pregnant people who have been raped or abused from those who have not? It's likely the victims/survivors of abuse are sneaking in to get the abortion already. Put a big trial on show and their partners are guaranteed to find out. Make abortion only available to victims/survivors of rape and abuse and none of them will ever come.

 

Finally, consenting to sex is not consenting to pregnancy. When you consent to ride in or drive a car, you are not consenting to getting in an accident. You have an expectation that you will be given proper medical care should an emergency arise. Abortion should not be exempt from this. It is a medical procedure. A valid medical procedure.

 

 

 

Have we really become so indifferent that a living, breathing person with personhood has less rights, less importance, less right to live than the clump of cells growing within them?

 

 

 

Wait. Who's talking about babies??? We are not talking about babies here. We are talking about embryos and fetuses, not babies.

 

 

 

And there it is. This isn't about preservation of life. It is about teaching (cis) women a lesson for taking control of their own sexuality.

 

If you can read all of the above and still honestly believe abortion is "the easy way out" we will get nowhere and I will not really be interested in trying any further. Nobody chooses abortion like they choose what soda they want.

 

 

 

If you are attempting to allude to Dr. Suess here, you should know he was pretty staunchly pro-choice and his wife has sued pro-life crowds for stealing his words from Horton Hears a Who.

 

If not, why have we forgotten that the pregnant person is also a life? They do not suddenly stop mattering just because a few, easily replaceable, clump of cells inside of them. (A clump of cells which, btw, can become a tumor rather than a life.)

 

 

 

Embryo's and abortable fetuses cannot feel pain. They have no sentience. They have no personhood. They have no voice. They don't need anyone speaking for them.

 

The pregnant person, however, is quite capable of feeling, of being. They do have a voice. Why are we silencing them? Protect choice at all costs.

I am well aware of the risks of pregnancy as I did my research before I had my daughter. I know what illnesses and injuries can occur. I would gladly take on every unwanted child/fetus/clump of cells if I could and I will do everything I can to help anyone I can.

 

No. I was not trying to allude to Dr. Suess. I said that because that is my belief.

 

To the cost. I spent less than three thousand dollars on all prenatal visits and delivery. Granted the method of birth and prenatal care I chose were not the norm.

 

I have no problem with abortions before the first sixteen weeks. My problem is with abortions done after the point that this "clump of cells" has a heartbeat.

[Brite]

I am well aware of the risks of pregnancy as I did my research before I had my daughter. I know what illnesses and injuries can occur. I would gladly take on every unwanted child/fetus/clump of cells if I could and I will do everything I can to help anyone I can.

 

No. I was not trying to allude to Dr. Suess. I said that because that is my belief.

 

To the cost. I spent less than three thousand dollars on all prenatal visits and delivery. Granted the method of birth and prenatal care I chose were not the norm.

 

I have no problem with abortions before the first sixteen weeks. My problem is with abortions done after the point that this "clump of cells" has a heartbeat.

So? A heartbeat is just a muscle. Brain dead people can have heart beats. Tumors can have heart beats. Invalid.

[RebellBelle93]

So? A heartbeat is just a muscle. Brain dead people can have heart beats. Tumors can have heart beats. Invalid.

What's your opinion once they have brain function?