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So? A heartbeat is just a muscle. Brain dead people can have heart beats. Tumors can have heart beats. Invalid.

What's your opinion once they have brain function?

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What's your opinion once they have brain function?

Still doesn't necessarily mean much of anything, especially if they aren't viable outside of the womb.

 

But still, something that small, which isn't even viable outside the womb and is essentially a parasite while inside the womb, still gets priority over the person it's inside of? Should those with a uterus be treated as nothing more than objects that give birth to other people? Do we get a say in any of this? If that's the case and we have no say- fine. Take your clumps of cells and find other ways of growing them. Obviously we don't matter more than them. Our opinions, thoughts, and feelings are completely overridden when we have a developing embryo inside of us. :\ You still haven't replied to those posts that brought this up at all.

 

I don't *hate* children. I don't *hate* life. But why should I be *forced* into having a child I don't want just because I "messed up"? What about older people who have to have abortions because they don't want more children, don't want to risk having a child with problems due to their age, and/or thought they weren't fertile any more due to age? It's not just "dumb, irresponsible teenagers" that are messing up. And wouldn't they be MORE responsible if they had proper sex ed and *knew* about everything they were getting into? Proper sex ed is shown to *successfully* lower rates of teen pregnancy and abortion in general. And even if someone *is* irresponsible, why slap them with the punishment of a child? If they were irresponsible with sex, how responsible are they going to be with a child they are now forced to have due to being irresponsible?

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What's your opinion once they have brain function?

Define brain function.

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If I'm not mistaken, China is a communist country and people there are only allowed one child per household. India has many places that aren't over populated. People choose to live in such densely populated areas. I personally would never EVER have an abortion. I have a two month old daughter and the though of not having her or someone choosing to end such a small, defenseless, beautiful life nearly brings tears to my eyes. I don't believe its a matter of choice so much as it is whether its legal to end a life.

Then don't have an abortion. But that does not give you the right to go teary eyed about anything that happens to show up in anyone else's womb. That is none of YOUR business.

 

I have suffered contraceptive failure. More than once (and yes I am competent, but the pill was not available to the unwed in those days, and condoms are very good when used correctly, as ours were - but not 100% - and nor is the pill.) I had an abortion. Not to have done would have condemned the child to a ghastly life with a mother who did not want it and who would have resented it for ruining HER chances at a decent adult life - and adoption IS NO ANSWER.

 

If it cannot survive outside the womb it is not fully human. End of. (And all those babies in ICUs who were born too soon, and are on ventilators and tubes and so on- huge numbers end up horribly damaged and using up their parents' or the nation's resources to support them in some kind of half life.)

 

Some people are far too preoccupied with saving non-viable embryos at the expense of all those actual living children who NEED support.

 

Some people are far too pro-birth, no pro-life. "You have to carry that baby to term. OK, now that you have done - goodbye, and don't you dare claim welfar2 because we prevented you completing your training and now you can't get a job...."

 

That's not pro-life; that's pro retribution.

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but we all know the risks when we have sex.

No. Not everyone does. Sex education is crap in a lot of places and kids aren't taught how to use contraception properly (or at all!) and they end up believing myths and lies. My sex ed class in 6th grade? "Abstinence is the only way to go!!!" "Don't have sex unless you want a baby!!!" And that was basically it. No how to put on condoms, no talk about different protection methods, they barely even mentioned STDS besides "don't get an STD!"

Many people end up believing things like "You can't get pregnant if you're standing up" or "Plastic wrap works just as good as a condom."

 

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I remember someone on another forum who had worked at Planned Parenthood and cited having heard of cases where people have even used things like potato crisp packets as condom substitutes.

Not only wouldn't those fit tightly, but OUCH!!

 

I was lucky that at a relatively young age I was good enough at reading and curious enough that the whole thing was settled with my mother buying a couple books on puberty, sexual development, contraception, pregnancy, STDs and everything else, to the point that the only thing I ever needed to tell anyone was that my periods had started and I would need money from time to time for sanitary items.

 

Heck, even at my school, which was one of the better ones in the district, in 7th grade we had some presentations about sanitary pads and tampons, and only in high school (!!) were we educated on pregnancy and contraception, and a bit about consent. Apparently most students got their sex ed somewhere else before these lessons, because there were hardly any teenage pregnancies there that anyone heard of, but not everyone everywhere is that lucky.

Edited by lightbird

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We don't force others to give blood to save someone's life, not against their will -- not once, and definitely not once every day for 9 months. The common position, one that we see reflected in our laws, is that it is unethical.

 

We do not force others to donate an organ just because that organ will save someone's life. It is unethical.

 

Pregnancy is a health risk.

 

Forcing someone to go through something that could kill them is unethical. It doesn't matter if someone else dies; if it mattered, we would force people to give blood and to donate extra organs or pieces of their liver.

 

Pregnancy is no different than one person borrowing someone else's organ... now I don't think there are any real life comparisons I could make, but rest assured, if there existed a procedure on earth where one person needed another's kidney only for 9 months, and then it was returned to the original owner, guess what? It would still be illegal to force someone to give away their kidney temporarily.

 

And that's it. Just because a fetus depends on a woman for life, doesn't mean the woman loses ownership over her own body. I mean, hell, we don't even force people to undergo treatment that will save their own lives, we value the ownership over our selves so much.

 

There is nothing so damning about a uterus that it should strip its owner of a right that we afford to everybody else, in every other comparable situation.

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What's your opinion once they have brain function?

They're still perfectly up for "murdering" if they're going to leech off my body without my consent. I am not obligated to donate my kidney to save a life even though I can. I am not obligated to give blood or plasma or bone marrow or anything else to save a life or help a person out even though I can. I am therefore not obligated to incubate a fetus if I don't want to even though I can.

 

Additionally, further on the "you know the risks/don't have sex if you don't!"

 

A while back I did some research for a presentation on the quality of sex ed for a class. I collected all kinds of stories from people who had terrible sex ed. And I'm not talking about people from the stereotypical backwater, uneducated village out in the middle of an underdeveloped country. I'm taking about people right in the USA, who were flat-out told that sex before marriage guarantees that you'll get AIDS, die and go to hell. And that was the entirety of their sex education.

 

So no, a lot of people actually don't know the risks when they're at the age when they start getting natural urges as their bodies develop.

 

We need comprehensive sex education that begins young--well before the ages people start having sex. They need to know before puberty starts about the kinds of changes they're going to start experiencing to prepare them, and everybody needs to know what kind of changes both reproductive systems will experience--none of this "adult men who don't know what a period is" BS that we get now because it's too taboo to explain it to them or whatever. As they age, give them more information about what sex is and what can happen. Start giving them information on why they shouldn't begin to have sex too young because of the risks to their bodies, even if they start having those urges sooner.

 

As they get closer to a safer age for their bodies to handle sex, educating them on pregnancy, contraception, abortion, abstinence, more and more about STDs/STIs, about the costs and risks of pregnancy and childbirth and raising a child.

 

The more educated people are, the less abortions there will be because the less unwanted or poorly-timed pregnancies (since not every abortion is due to it being unwanted--sometimes it's just the best choice in a crappy situation for an otherwise much wanted baby) if people can more readily avoid them.

 

Dismantle the stigma with buying contraception, because young women who go to purchase some are at times discouraged because they're given dirty looks or outright told they won't be allowed to buy it because it goes against the beliefs of the pharmacist if they want like a morning-after pill or something.

 

Dismantle the culture of guys trying to weasel their way out of using condoms with stuff like "but it feels better!", "if you really loved me you'd let me not use one" (which is manipulation and can be a red flag for abuse) or "condoms don't fit me I'm too big!". Educate people on the existence and use of female condoms for if a male refuses to use one.

 

Fix the adoption system so that much more than the pathetically small % that actually get adopted are taken into loving homes for the rest of their lives.

 

All these things and more would be needed to really stop most abortions. But even then, there will always be abortions since we don't live in a perfect world. And if a person has deemed the abortion the correct choice for their situation, then others have no right to judge against that, because it is not their situation and not their life.

 

I would gladly take on every unwanted child/fetus/clump of cells if I could and I will do everything I can to help anyone I can.

So why don't you? Why are you not taking in unwanted babies left and right? What's holding you back from doing that? Because I can guarantee that whatever reason you have as to why you are not actively trying to adopt and raise every unwanted kid there is in the system right now is a reason why another person had an abortion.

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I am well aware of the risks of pregnancy as I did my research before I had my daughter. I know what illnesses and injuries can occur. I would gladly take on every unwanted child/fetus/clump of cells if I could and I will do everything I can to help anyone I can.

 

To the cost. I spent less than three thousand dollars on all prenatal visits and delivery. Granted the method of birth and prenatal care I chose were not the norm.

 

I have no problem with abortions before the first sixteen weeks. My problem is with abortions done after the point that this "clump of cells" has a heartbeat.

Okay... but not everyone is that aware. Not everyone has access to the same resources. Not everyone can handle pregnancy much less parenting.

 

Okay. It's cool that you would help so many unborn potential beings, but what about the suffering beings who are already alive? Why are they so much less important?

 

Again, great for you! It's nice that you were able to afford your pregnancy. What I and sci quoted are average costs, meaning what most people will have to pay. Meaning that some outliers - like you - will pay less and others will pay more. Most people do not get that care for the cost you did.

 

I'm not really for cutting off early abortions, but good to hear you clarify some more. Why do you cut it off at heartbeat? That still doesn't define personhood. As well, many people who get later abortions do so because they had to save up the money for it and couldn't afford to do it earlier. If they aren't able to make the cost, they now have to pay even more of what they already couldn't afford. D:

 

No. Not everyone does. Sex education is crap in a lot of places and kids aren't taught how to use contraception properly (or at all!) and they end up believing myths and lies. My sex ed class in 6th grade? "Abstinence is the only way to go!!!" "Don't have sex unless you want a baby!!!" And that was basically it. No how to put on condoms, no talk about different protection methods, they barely even mentioned STDS besides "don't get an STD!"

Many people end up believing things like "You can't get pregnant if you're standing up" or "Plastic wrap works just as good as a condom."

 

I just saw an article sharing some of the sex ed confessions from the Whisper app. Ranged from "told us a relationship was like a cupcake and sex like frosting; if you put the frosting on before the cake cools, it will crumble and be no good" to "if you have sex and get pregnant you will end up like me" to "sex (as someone with a vagina) is like a lollipop; the more it is licked, the less people want to share/have the next lick" to "they passed around a the dirtiest, grungiest toothbrush they could find and told us if you have sex, that's what you're like" to "brought a doughnut to class and shoved a cup through the center, ripping the donut apart, then told us that's what happens to our vaginas during sex". There were also mentions of the other common scare tactics, like how all STIs are incurable, how STIs make you less of a person, and how you could get pregnant by making out because sperm can travel through clothes.

 

Yeah. It's terrifying what our state of sex ed is. My friend was a call operator for PP once answering sex ed questions and boy does she have some horror stories she could tell.

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It is considered two accounts of murder to shoot a pregnant woman. Therefore, the baby counts as a life, and killing the baby should count as murder.

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It is considered two accounts of murder to shoot a pregnant woman. Therefore, the baby counts as a life, and killing the baby should count as murder.

In some places, at some stages of pregnancy.

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It is considered two accounts of murder to shoot a pregnant woman. Therefore, the baby counts as a life, and killing the baby should count as murder.

As a friend of mine explained:

 

Double homicide is only used in SOME states and in the majority of the states that do, it is only considered double homicide when the fetus is considered viable. It clearly states in the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, that double homicide was only put in place to help further punish the murderer, it also states that abortion is not a crime. [x]

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I just saw an article sharing some of the sex ed confessions from the Whisper app. Ranged from "told us a relationship was like a cupcake and sex like frosting; if you put the frosting on before the cake cools, it will crumble and be no good" to "if you have sex and get pregnant you will end up like me" to "sex (as someone with a vagina) is like a lollipop; the more it is licked, the less people want to share/have the next lick" to "they passed around a the dirtiest, grungiest toothbrush they could find and told us if you have sex, that's what you're like" to "brought a doughnut to class and shoved a cup through the center, ripping the donut apart, then told us that's what happens to our vaginas during sex". There were also mentions of the other common scare tactics, like how all STIs are incurable, how STIs make you less of a person, and how you could get pregnant by making out because sperm can travel through clothes.

 

Yeah. It's terrifying what our state of sex ed is. My friend was a call operator for PP once answering sex ed questions and boy does she have some horror stories she could tell.

One of the stories I found was that it went something like this (clearly paraphrased since it was a while ago that I read it)

 

"They had a diagram of two people in a boat, and explained that this was what a relationship was like. Then they showed the people holding hands, and the boat started to rock a little. They started kissing, and the boat was drawn rocking a lot and the waters got rough. They had sex, and the the boat went over a waterfall and into the flames of hell."

 

And that was their entire sex education.

 

Anther recounted how they didn't even know they were supposed to be having sex ed--their class was just sent to a classroom with a teacher like once or twice a week or something, and they sat there in silence while the teacher read magazines. When somebody finally asked they were told "I'm supposed to be giving you sex ed, but I don't believe in that". And that was their "sex ed".

 

Others include the "IF YOU HOLD HANDS YOU MIGHT GET AIDS BECAUSE WHAT IF YOU BOTH HAVE A CUT ON YOUR HANDS?!?!" or the "KISSING GIVES YOU AIDS!" and stuff.

 

Or the old "pass around a cup of water and spit in it, that's what it's like if you have sex before you're married" variation on the "ewww, gross, used vagina!" Which also has the horrifying implications of if you have a vagina, you are a sex toy, and nobody wants a used sex toy rather than, y'know, being a person and whatnot.

 

Or the whole "give everybody a cup of water, but three of them have an invisible, odorless chemical in then, then everybody has to go around and share a little water. Something is put in them at the end and all the cups that change color now have STDs so DON'T HAVE SEX OR YOU GET AIDS1!!11!" one.

 

(Yes, STD's spread badly when people aren't honest---but there's a need for destigmatization of them, too, so people feel more comfortable being honest and so that you can take steps to protect yourself from the ones that you can protect from using various methods. There's also testing you can do for yourself and your partner(s), etc.)

 

Some people recounted thinking you could "have more than one dad if the girl slept with several men".

 

And, of course, can't forget some of the "classic" myths for preventing pregnancy such as

 

 

Douching with coke (something about the carbonation or whatever being spermicide I guess?)

 

 

If the girl is on top because of gravity stopping the sperm from reaching the egg

 

 

Having sex on a Sunday (God will protect you from pregnancy despite having sinful pre-/extramarital sex...? Or... Something? This one never made sense to me--at least the others you can generally see some kind of logic to them, even if that logic is wrong)

 

 

Jumping jacks after sex, probably the gravity thing again

 

 

Shower sex, because it washes away the sperm

 

 

Sex standing up because gravity again

 

 

Sex on a period

 

 

And then plenty of other issues arising from not giving proper education about the bodies and the systems which leads to things like "You can't leave me turned on like this, I'll get blue balls and it'll be dangerous to my health!" used to coerce people into sexual acts they'd rather not want to perform. (And, sadly, I'd not be surprised if some people actually honestly believe that they can die from blue balls or something, too, with the state of sex ed in the US...)

 

It is considered two accounts of murder to shoot a pregnant woman. Therefore, the baby counts as a life, and killing the baby should count as murder.

So, if that were to be changed and it was no longer considered two counts of murder, the fetus would stop being a person?

 

And, in a place where it doesn't count as a double homicide and only the mother is counted, does that mean that the fetus isn't a person in those places?

Edited by KageSora

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I am not obligated to donate my kidney to save a life even though I can. I am not obligated to give blood or plasma or bone marrow or anything else to save a life or help a person out even though I can. I am therefore not obligated to incubate a fetus if I don't want to even though I can.

That's really the crux of the matter. And blood, plasma and bone marrow donations are far less invasive than pregnancy.

 

It is considered two accounts of murder to shoot a pregnant woman. Therefore, the baby counts as a life, and killing the baby should count as murder.

If you're referring to the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, arguments like that are precisely why many people opposed that damned law. dry.gif But there was a high profile murder of a pregnant woman, and the rest is history. (And the woman in question- Laci Peterson- was around seven-and-a-half months pregnant. People generally don't get abortions at that point unless something has gone seriously wrong.)

 

Yes, there are other "feticide" laws around the country. Most of them are quite frankly obscene and tend to be used to prosecute (usually poor and/or nonwhite) women for miscarriages and stillbirths. Just because a law exists doesn't mean that it's right.

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That's really the crux of the matter. And blood, plasma and bone marrow donations are far less invasive than pregnancy.

Yeah. I have a phobia of needles--I'm slowly getting better each time I end up having to have blood drawn, but I avoid it when possible. And I'd still rather give plenty of blood or something than having to go through a pregnancy.

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Re: the abysmal state of sex ed.

 

I have a friend who thought you could get STDs even if both of you are total virgins and have never been otherwise exposed to any.

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Why Is This Mother in Prison for Helping Her Daughter Get an Abortion?

 

Opponents of abortion claim that they are motivated by a deep concern for the well-being of women and girls, and that they push

for increasingly harsh restrictions on abortion out of a desire to keep women safe and healthy. This year, that claim was put to the test

when the well-being of a woman and the daughter she wished to protect clashed with Pennsylvania's restrictive abortion laws.

Unsurprisingly, in a conflict between abortion restrictions and the well-being of women, women lose.

 

 

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It is considered two accounts of murder to shoot a pregnant woman. Therefore, the baby counts as a life, and killing the baby should count as murder.

So if the fetus is going to be responsible for the death of the mother if the pregnancy is allowed to go to term, does that not mean the fetus would be guilty of premeditated murder? And thus would it not be up to others to intervene to stop the attempted murder?

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So if the fetus is going to be responsible for the death of the mother if the pregnancy is allowed to go to term, does that not mean the fetus would be guilty of premeditated murder? And thus would it not be up to others to intervene to stop the attempted murder?

And by that token, anyone who didn't stop the pregnancy and even insisted the fetus be carried to term would be accomplices to the murder.

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Oh boy, get ready!

 

As women, we need to take into account the fact that we are the keepers of all Human life.

 

What is the deal with appointing women as the Keepers of All Human Life (seems like it should all be caps)? Don't lay the burden of humanity at my feet against my will. Don't single me out because I'm in a female body as if that determines who I am, what I want, or what I'm willing to do for humanity. Because - like all humans - I'm selfish, I'm lazy, I'm occasionally irresponsible and stupid, but regardless of those traits I still have a right to determine my own freaking life. Like the vast majority of humans, I also don't want to suffer. I would rather die than be forced to take up the mantle of a lifegiver. I am the keeper of nothing. I'm asexual and I don't want to ever have sex, let alone be pregnant, and I don't deserve to be guilt tripped, shamed, coerced, or forced into abandoning those intensely personal values for ANY REASON. To be trapped in such a situation would be a life of intense suffering for me. Beyond my own views, there are no two women, no two PEOPLE (because this doesn't just involve women), that want the same things out of life. So seriously, stop trying to fit womanhood or personhood into a tiny box because that box is constraining and irritating.

 

That being said, if human life is anyone's responsibility at all then surely it is ALL of the human race's as a whole, not one segment of it, yeah? The entire "women are just different/special" mentality needs to go away for good instead of rising up like a zombie every damn time this thread gets going. But I know it won't.

 

 

In situations like yours, where it is physically, mentally, or emotionally impossible to carry a baby I can understand having an abortion. I can't, however, condone a perfectly healthy woman, with the means and capability to continue pregnancy, getting an abortion simply because "she doesn't want to be pregnant". Yes, women that can't carry a child, are victims of rape or abuse, should have access to a safe abortion, but those aren't the only women that get abortions.

 

Who are you to determine another person's level of health though, shouldn't that be between the individual and their doctor if they have one? Why is it any less wrong for an unhealthy, victimized, or at-risk person to terminate a pregnancy than, say, someone who slipped up/didn't care and had unprotected sex? Is the "Keeper of All Human Life" thing just a sliding scale...? rolleyes.gif

 

Furthermore, no one NEEDS anyone else to condone their choices relating to their own bodily autonomy. You can judge someone all you want for getting an abortion for reasons you don't approve of, although it's mostly silly and hypocritical to do so, but when you let your emotional and ignorant judgments determine whether someone should have access to a safe, affordable, LEGAL medical procedure, that's where you enter the realm of irrationality and that's when it's time to take a long hard look at what you're really saying.

 

 

...women that are just careless or irresponsible shouldn't have an easy way out. They shouldn't be able to say a few words and erase the life they brought into the world.

 

Why? We're getting into the old "pregnancy as punishment for perceived stupidity" territory again with this. And if you think abortion is an easy way out you're laboring under a very harmful delusion that needs correcting. When you perpetuate such a callous lie, you are ignoring reality. But even if abortion WAS an easy way out, why would that be bad? Don't we, as humans, actively seek the easiest possible ways out of most every problem life throws at us? And yes, for many, being pregnant is a problem. It's not a happy gift. It's a highly variable life situation that must be evaluated and responded to at the individual level, regardless of how the pregnancy occurred. To actively pursue and push inequality in the availability of abortion is, again, irrational and flat-out dangerous. Is the subject of selective denial of healthcare based on misinformed and incomplete information a road you really want to go down?

 

 

I would gladly take on every unwanted child/fetus/clump of cells if I could

 

But you can't, and neither can anyone else. There aren't enough resources to provide this utopian ideal you envision, where every child is cared for adequately and every fetus is magically transported from an unwilling pregnant person to you and others like you. That is literally within the realm of fantasy.

 

 

Bottom line: take a look, a factual, logical look beyond your own values and beliefs. Take a look at other peoples' lives, at how easy it is for a human being to fall into temptation, forgetfulness, ignorance of their options, irresponsibility, laziness, or any other perceived flaws and mistakes we are prone to. Remember how it was to be young and not know what you know now. Realize what it is to be an adult, which means acknowledging you may not know everything about a person's situation at first glance, and to have the maturity to allow room for people to exert control over their own bodies even if they did something you don't approve of. Perhaps most importantly, listen to the people who have had circumstances that led them to make the choices you condemn, and evaluate their words with a rational and open mind. If you still personally condemn their choices, fine. But it is arrogant and foolish to hear bits and pieces (or NOTHING) of a person's story and declare their choices objectively wrong, especially when your reasoning is as faulty as it has been thus far in this thread.

 

These are NOT rhetorical questions, either, RebellBelle93, I'm legitimately interested in hearing responses.

 

/steps down from soapbox

Edited by Koroshiya-Ichi

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Well said, Koroshiya-Ichi. These are the times when I wish we were marsupials so I can literally throw the fetus into another person's pouch....

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I'm just going to put the box o' facts here,

 

Does the notion that women are keepers of human life even sound SLIGHTLY offensive to you? Maybe SOME women don't WANT to be keepers of a mass they never wanted. Maybe they don't want to keep a parasite inside of them because they have a drastic fear of pregnancy/child spawnage such as myself. "Oh then don't have sex Blighty". Are you serious? The sex shaming needs to end. People do not have sex just to procreate. Humans are the only species that can face their mate/partner during intercourse. Sex is a form of bonding. So saying "dun wanna get preg. dun have sex" is ridiculous.

 

 

You act like you know us. That just because we are women we should be proud to be "keepers of life" You know what? I'm not. If it was possible in the freaking country I live in, I would have my ovaries, tubes, and uterus CUT OUT. But I can't. Know why? Because you have to already have 2 kids, 30+ years old, and have your partner agrees that he is ok with this...ONLY THEN can you get one.

 

So if a women is perfectly stable, by your definition she should birth it? No. Stop. you don;t KNOW why she's getting an abortion. Maybe not enough finances, maybe her partner tampered with her bc, the end of the day...YOU don't know.

 

That attitude is what is going to revert society back to women being unable to do things for themselves. It's going to make all the strides that women made to be allowed to have their own choices with their reproductive organs invalid. It's going to make women the subject on being reliant on others for their needs.

If it's illegal, it's just going to make more deaths for those women..oh, and those precious cell clumps. So by telling them NO. You're ultimately going to be killing two birds with one stone.

Let's all hope they don't become aware that abortificant herbs are a thing, or stairs, or boiling water, or wires,....guns,knives,ability to stop breathing, or all of that other stuff. Because only then will abortions not be a thing. Don't get in the way of desperate....unless of course, that's the whole idea. Make women so desperate to get an abortion she just kills herself. Kudos to anyone that thinks like this, because those are the real murderers.

 

You do realize that "careless" or "irresponsible" isn't a valid explanation to say "NOH ABORTION FOR YOU. YOU MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS!!!" Is basically just punishing the woman for getting pregnant and now you're punishing her to give birth.

 

Oh she can put it up for adoption biggrin.gif

Yes because our adoption sys. is so great. And since we are on the topic of "irresponsible, let's look at why some women get pregnant when they don't want to be.

 

 

A doctor can and will refuse to abort to save the life of the mother:

 

47% of puerperal maternal death is from doctors refusing to administer life-saving medical procedures which would prolong the mother's life but pose risk to the fetus. 74% of those cases are because of the doctor's morals and the "conscience clause." Of that number, 22% of those pregnancies were before the legal cutoff for abortion in the United States.

 

(Puerperal Death, Infant and Maternal, 2008, The Journal of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, Dr. Meredith Fresquez and Joan Christodoulou-Smith)

 

10 million women attempt suicide every year. 4 million because of pregnancy. In the US alone, 14,000 women committed suicide because of their pregnancies in 2009. Another 3,000 were inconclusive with suicide suspected.

 

If they can't afford a baby, how are they going to afford to put a baby up for adoption?

 

----

 

The point that they're making, is that when abortion is illegal in the united states, infanticide goes up 25% and child abuse goes up 46%, and that's cases that are reported.

 

----

 

see my statistics above. Also to add to that --Of children in chronic children's wards, or those with congenital diseases, 87% wish that they'd never been born. Of those, 2-6% under 12 attempt suicide every year for the second or more time. 14-20% attempt it for the first time.

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

QUOTE (ShinyTomato @ Jul 31 2012, 07:21 AM)

only 8% of abortions are "irresponsible" people who knew it was possible for them to get pregnant and didn't bother with birth control, right?

 

And no federal money, once again, funds abortion.

 

And, only 2-3% of the children given up for adoption (when people actually have the money to do it) are actually adopted. The rest stay in the system until they die or age out, statistically going through at least one abusive foster home.

 

Okay, touching on things quickly.

 

Unfortunately, we do not, in this country, teach proper birth control and even when we do, it is not an option for everyone, nor is it always effective. Birth control is often tampered with by partners of both genders. Did you know, for example, that over a 25% of abortions occur because a partner lied that they were sterile, or tampered with birth control?

 

The number of married women, or women in serious, long-term committed relationships aborting is steadily increasing.

 

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Only 2-3% of children given up for adoption will be adopted. (2010 Social Services Survey and Census of Adoption and Foster Systems in the United States)

 

Further, for quality of life of those not adopted:

 

1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

Further, adoption is prohibitively expensive:

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor's visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

A. Only 10% of women who have abortions knew or understood that they were not protected at the time.

 

B. Between 25-30% of abortions are caused by fraud -- a partner lying about sterility or tampering with birth control.

 

C. It is illegal to be sterilized against your will in the US.

 

D. it is also illegal to be sterilized in most states, unless you are over 35 and already have two children, unless there is a pressing health reason, despite not wanting to have children.

 

E. The majority of abortions are those well above the poverty line.

 

F. Not everyone can use certain kinds of birth control for various health or moral reasons and NFP is unreliable.

 

G. Abstinence sex-ed doesn't teach how to avoid pregnancy beyond "don't do it." We need to fix the education system.

QUOTE (ShinyTomato @ Aug 2 2012, 10:54 PM)

Considering that 1 in 3 people will have a partner tamper with birth control or lie about their fertility, statistically -- yes you are. The majority of children in this world were unplanned (as high as 82%). Obviously, the number that abort, unplanned goes up, but not by much (84%)

 

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You are 74% more likely to have any sort of complication with birth than with abortion. Of those that have complications from abortion, less than 5% affect sterility, and less than 1% pose any threat to life. That's much lower than with birth.

 

(US CDC National Center For Health Statistics, Risk of Maternal Complications During Birth, Spontaneous Abortion and Clinical Abortion, 2011)

 

I see the Box O' Statistics is still infamous.

 

So, here we go.

 

Only 1-2% of children who are given up to the state for adoption are being adopted.

 

In children who are not adopted, 73% will state that they wish they had been aborted.

 

61% will state that their parents were selfish for not aborting them.

 

1 in 5 under twelve will attempt suicide before the year is out.

 

1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they were never born.

 

The average age of social workers placing children on suicide watch nationwide has dropped from fourteen to 12.

 

In states where abortion rights have been restricted since 2010, the incidence in abuse and neglect of infants has risen 45% (with a 2% margin of error.)

 

Suicides of pregnant women are up 31% (4% margin of error as knowledge is hard to determine.)

 

The average cost for giving a child up for adoption, after medical bills and care, has risen an average of $3,525 in the continental US.

 

Here's my view on abortion v. adoption. Why would you be against preventing a fetus suffering before it has any guarantee of being human rather than put them into a system where they have a 88% chance of being molested or abused, a 90% chance of attempting suicide -- when we know for a fact through studies that 97% of the children failed to be adopted in the 18-month window will actively state (some as early as five) that they wish they had never been born?

 

---

 

So, to tell me, who works in social services and still works as an "other options" counselor at a clinic that I have so "see thigns from all sides" and throwing the numbers of how many abortions have happened at me -- why not look at the numbers of how many children are put in care every year?

How many are in care at any given time because of abuse (over 400,000)

How many children are proven to be neglected each year: (872,000)

How many die on average due to neglect in the home (2,560)

How many are put in care because they were not adopted (120,000 in 2004, which has since risen to triple that)

How many fatalities for under-five year olds are due to neglect (76%)

How many calls CPS gets each year (3.2 million)

How many cases actually get investigated: (64%)

How many cases investigated get rereported (22%)

 

And you want to put more children in the system? I already work overtime every week, am on-call when I'm not at work, and have been shot twice. ~Shiny Tomatoe

 

As others have said, you have no right to judge what others want to do with their body. Them having an abortion...How does that affect you? An abortion is a private thing between the woman and her affiliates. Does a stranger having an abortion put a mental strain on you? Does it make you sick and weak? Does it make you want to lash out and harm others? (In this case, making them give birth). And also, does a complete stranger having an abortion cripple you mentally, physically, or emotionally?

 

There's a cure for this. It's called minding your own business.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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Oh she can put it up for adoption biggrin.gif

Yes because our adoption sys. is so great. And since we are on the topic of "irresponsible, let's look at why some women get pregnant when they don't want to be.

This.

 

People who think that having children just because they are healthy and can put them up for adoption do not think of one thing.

 

Just who in the hell is actually going to adopt that now unwanted child who will sit for years and may possibly not get adopted?

 

Please tell me who would? Hardly anyone and if they want too guess what? The system is so jacked up it is almost next to impossible to get one. People who are homosexual have one hell of a time trying to adopt that child you threw away (and they themselves want to have a family with children, I do not understand why it is so hard for people to let them have a child. You didn't want it why does it bother you so much? If it does START ADOPTING THEM!). So why not save it a life of misery and just abort it so it don't have to live out its life like that?

 

How about those children who have serious disabilities and have to live their entire "life" in a hospital? WHAT KIND OF LIFE IS THAT?! If you say it IS a life you have seriously never thought that that child may never walk a day in it's life, may never see the outside world, may not even know it's alive itself because some selfish person forced you into having a child. They don't deserve it and neither do the parents who have to sit there and watch their child lay there almost lifeless, slowly dying just because some idiotic law is put into place by people who cannot think of anothers life and choices and only sees their own morals as the right ones.

 

I do not want children at all, I find them to noisy and I hate being around them as of right now (and may never change). So what if I get raped? Should I have to keep that child just because you say I'm a healthy woman or the "Keeper of Human Life" (and no we are not, just because we give birth does not mean we should have that title stuck to us unwillingly)? No. I shouldn't and I wont. I do not want to raise the child of my rapist. I will refuse to carry that child to term no matter if it upsets everyone I know. I do not want the memory of that night in the form of a child and I do not want to have to stick a child into a orphanage where it may never find a home. I do not want that. I do not need that. The child itself does not need any of that.

 

Think of the other persons life and how it may affect them before you even consider shaming them or saying anything to them at all. You do not know them and you will never fully understand their reasons.

Edited by demonicvampiregirl

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Children are not punishments. It's not fair to force another baby to be brought into the world only for the sake of teaching someone a lesson.

I have an online friend who was an accident and their mother wanted them aborted but the family objected and so she was forced to give birth. They hate them self and a day doesn't go by when they don't they wish they hadn't been born. They didn't want to born and neither did their mother, so why were they forced to be born? Because someone thought they would want to be born and they deserved to be born and the mother shouldn't have an easy way out. But what did that get? A suicidal kid stuck in the foster system for too many years and a mentally unstable mother.

You say you would take all the unwanted fetuses, but would you really? Do you really want to raise a few thousand kids? No. You don't. And it's impossible. So instead of saying what you would do, try to focus on the reality of the situation.

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Additionally, on the whole "you were irresponsible no abortion for you" front...

 

Okay. So, can we ban medical care for smokers or alcoholics? Because it's their fault they got lung cancer or their liver is failing. They should be forced to just die off because hey--they knew the risks when they started smoking or drinking!

 

Somebody was driving recklessly and got into an accident? Well, they just have to heal their broken ribs on their own, they knew the risks of driving like a maniac so they shouldn't get the "easy way out" with proper medical care.

 

It's the same principle--punishing somebody for a behavior you don't condone, by refusing to provide them the medical means to deal with their problem(s).

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