Abortion

[whitebaron]

inconsistent use = no contraception at all.

Does anyone else not see a problem with that? Basically you're saying that over 70% of people who abort did not even try seriously to prevent the baby.

 

That asides: there's plenty of cheap recreation, sex is not the only one - its just that society somehow has very skewed opinions about it.

 

@ylangylang: but many do exactly that. they don't want babies, they dont use contraceptives, and if they ever get pregnant, they abort.

[Obscure_Trash]

inconsistent use = no contraception at all.

Does anyone else not see a problem with that? Basically you're saying that over 70% of people who abort did not even try seriously to prevent the baby.

 

That asides: there's plenty of cheap recreation, sex is not the only one - its just that society somehow has very skewed opinions about it.

 

@ylangylang: but many do exactly that. they don't want babies, they dont use contraceptives, and if they ever get pregnant, they abort.

Paragraph one - I think you need to re-read the stats more closely and think about them before jumping to random conclusions. Inconsistent =/= none. Could be misunderstanding or misapplication, too.

 

Paragraph two - and?

 

Paragraph three - so?

[Rosedamai]

@ylangylang: but many do exactly that. they don't want babies, they dont use contraceptives, and if they ever get pregnant, they abort.

1. Please show me a statistic that proves that, I hardly think that a condom is more expensive or harder to access than an abortion clinic that provides a medical service while striving to be objective; I don't mean one of those fake abortion clinics that works to guilt-trip the people who use its services to carry the baby to full term.

2. So? They still don't want the baby. They should have the right to get an abortion.

[Kestra15]

Pro-choice should be objective...

No, it is an entirely subjective experience, as it is different for every person, every circumstance, every location and situation. You said yourself that it involves emotions, which are an entire subjective experience - there is no 'objective' measurement of any emotion. We can approximate and set guidance, but eventually any argument that involves the life of another person is always going to include elements of subjectivity; emotional/psychological state, quality of life, wants and desires. What the mother feels must be taken into account, always. Then add in the philosophical argument about whether or not the fetus is also a human being and has rights, then we are looking at something that will be more subjective than objective.

[Hellen]

I wish that were true here in the States. =( Unfortunately, abortions are expensive, and some pregnant persons end up having to push back an abortion due to financial reasons. This can put them right near the cut-off or even make it too late for them to get one.

 

From 2006, 88% of abortions (62% of that by the 9th week) were done in the first 12 weeks. So most abortions are done in this time frame, but there can be reasons for later abortions.

 

 

 

Actually, no, I can't agree to that. If someone wants an abortion, then that justifies them having an abortion, IMO.

 

Of interest, for the US, again 2006 (in reply to the quote, but it's also relevant to earlier discussion): http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

 

• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

 

• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.[8]

 

• Eight percent of women who have abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.[8]

 

• About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women who are at risk for unintended pregnancy but are not using contraceptives. Most of these women have practiced contraception in the past.[9,10]

 

~

 

Aside from that, contraception isn't cheap but sex is. For low income, sex is about one of the few recreational activities they can afford. It's a stress reliever, people can and do enjoy it, and it can help bring partners closer. It rather smacks of eugenics to just say that poor people, then, shouldn't have sex.

For once, it's 'Free' in germany to have an abortion.

You just have to have proof that you had the talk to the councelor, because they write you a letter, in which stands "Person XY has attended to the counceling talk, and has been informed of any other possibilities"

 

 

I agree, it's the people's right to abort a child but ...

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to have an affordable contraception program?

The pill, by example, costs 40€ here. That's for three months.

I think that's an affordable price (And before you heap all the "But there are people that have no moneyz!!!11!!" -scrap on me, be aware, I am living off wellfare, and I CAN afford the pill, due to health reasons, which force me to take it. AND i have to pay for it, AND i have bills to pay.)

 

The pill or even a condom are affordable.

 

That said.

 

Another point that I want to make IS.

 

While I am not against abortions in general, should the child be really unwanted, I would wish for a clearer sexual education.

 

A lot of abortions COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, if those people had used contraceptions.

 

(I mean, of course, a pregnancy CAN happen, if the pill had been taken, but those pregnancies are MOST OFTEN a reason of taking the pill wrong [in case you didn't know, you have a window of 12 hours in which you can take your regular pill. Meanin, you start at a monday at 6am, your contraception pill is useless if you keep taking it every day at 6am, and suddenly, two weeks later on a monday at 8pm. Many pills have reduced that window to 6 hours already], or sickness, or antibiotics, or even anti depressants! Even homeopathic medicine can render the pill useless!)

 

Many pregnancies happen because the sexual partners are simply unknowing.

Sexual practices, that are considered "safe" can lead to pregnancy, too.

(not going into detail with that...)

 

 

 

 

My top point of growing annoyed is the point when people grow uncaring.

About their own health, about the health of others.

 

"Why should I take the pill, I get fat!"

or "My boyfriend doesn't like condoms!"

 

Eh, specially the last.

 

 

THOSE are the people that, before being let out of a gyn-office or clinic, get a good talking to, not about how they are unresponsible, but how to carefully avoid pregnancies, maybe even, if it's not wanted, get neutered (right word?), and especially about sexual diseases.

 

 

On another note.

 

Healthcare in the USA should take care of things like the pill, the other methods of contraception (there are a lot!), and sex ed.

 

 

(btw, I am not flaming people who are pro-abortion. It is just a fact that people should grow more responsible about their actions. Sex as a "recreational action!" ... sorry, but that strikes me as deeply, deeply wrong....)

[7Deadly$ins]

Neutered is not the right word for people (sterilized would be better) but I understood what you meant. However, it is very difficult to have this done in America so it isn't really possible here. But there ARE reasons to have sex besides wanting children. Teenagers aren't the only ones who want abortions or are having sex for fun. There are plenty of married couples who do not want children, and contraceptive mistakes can happen to everyone.

[TikindiDragon]

Makes me quite glad contraceptives are actually free in the UK if you have the prescribed by your doctor. Shame they still won't offer sterelisations to people that don't already have kids and/or are under 35, but hey...

[whitebaron]

There are plenty of married couples who do not want children, and contraceptive mistakes can happen to everyone.

Can happen yes. But the chance is still minimal. Its only if you don't care or don't inform yourself enough, that it starts getting obnoxious and regularly.

 

Statistically, you have a better chance to fully wreck your car than to get pregnant when using contraceptives properly.

[7Deadly$ins]

Can happen yes. But the chance is still minimal. Its only if you don't care or don't inform yourself enough, that it starts getting obnoxious and regularly.

 

Statistically, you have a better chance to fully wreck your car than to get pregnant when using contraceptives properly.

I'm referring to accidents. Condom tears etc., can happen to anyone, and while yes -- the morning after pill and so on are available to most people, there are also plenty of ways that people can do their best and still fail. There are even plenty of women who don't notice their pregnant due to irregular periods and low weight gain. Things happen.

 

Still, though, my point was that horny teenagers aren't the only ones getting abortions or having sex.

[whitebaron]

Accidents, happen, yes. And they are so rare, that statistics cannot even say how often they happen. Biggest issue with contraceptives is always improper use. Condoms tear? If that happens, if it's a one in a million chance, its a lot.

Don't deceive yourselves - many people talking about accidents do so to not being able to be blamed themselves.

 

If you miss a day on your pill, or puke all day? Clear sign that you are unsafe. It's basic knowledge (they usually write it in the instructions), yet easily ignored.

[7Deadly$ins]

Accidents, happen, yes. And they are so rare, that statistics cannot even say how often they happen. Biggest issue with contraceptives is always improper use. Condoms tear? If that happens, if it's a one in a million chance, its a lot.

Don't deceive yourselves - many people talking about accidents do so to not being able to be blamed themselves.

 

If you miss a day on your pill, or puke all day? Clear sign that you are unsafe. It's basic knowledge (they usually write it in the instructions), yet easily ignored.

The fact that you can't find a statistic about it doesn't mean it happens rarely. It means there isn't a statistic about it. This sort of thing also tends to go unreported.

 

Missing a day on the pill can render you unsafe for a month, depending on the pill. Things aren't always clear cut.

 

That said, I really don't care if they are lying or not. I'm not going to judge their reasons for wanting an abortion.

 

The only reason I even started this line of discussion is because we were talking about if sex is a recreational activity or not, and I don't believe that the only purpose of sex in humans is for procreation.

[whitebaron]

The only reason I even started this line of discussion is because we were talking about if sex is a recreational activity or not, and I don't believe that the only purpose of sex in humans is for procreation.

ok, then lets go back to this.

 

if sex is recreation, its something you do to kill time, a habit, a hobby.

And I am deeply troubled by that, as is Sky - because, honestly, with my hobbies, I only care that people think alike on that one topic.

 

So, this effectively means: no attachments, no attractions, only the same interests in sex is sufficient enough to have sex very often without any particular person being there. -> Bad in my book.

[7Deadly$ins]

ok, then lets go back to this.

 

if sex is recreation, its something you do to kill time, a habit, a hobby.

And I am deeply troubled by that, as is Sky - because, honestly, with my hobbies, I only care that people think alike on that one topic.

 

So, this effectively means: no attachments, no attractions, only the same interests in sex is sufficient enough to have sex very often without any particular person being there. -> Bad in my book.

Recreational does not mean no attachment or attraction. In this context it means "sex without intending on a pregnancy".

[TikindiDragon]

ok, then lets go back to this.

 

if sex is recreation, its something you do to kill time, a habit, a hobby.

And I am deeply troubled by that, as is Sky - because, honestly, with my hobbies, I only care that people think alike on that one topic.

 

So, this effectively means: no attachments, no attractions, only the same interests in sex is sufficient enough to have sex very often without any particular person being there. -> Bad in my book.

But should anyone's *moral* judgements (which is what this is) have any bearing on another person's actions? I, personally, think divorce is an extremely bad thing that shouldn't be happening - and yet I would never suggest that divorce should be anything other than 100% legal and available in all circumstances.

[Rosedamai]

But should anyone's *moral* judgements (which is what this is) have any bearing on another person's actions? I, personally, think divorce is an extremely bad thing that shouldn't be happening - and yet I would never suggest that divorce should be anything other than 100% legal and available in all circumstances.

^This.

What happens in people's beds aren't a concern to me. I would love to have easily accessible contraception and sex education, but it isn't happening, and we have to live with the circumstances that are given to us. For me it doesn't matter if someone was having sex with multiple partners, if they want an abortion, they should get one.

[Brite]

^This.

What happens in people's beds aren't a concern to me. I would love to have easily accessible contraception and sex education, but it isn't happening, and we have to live with the circumstances that are given to us. For me it doesn't matter if someone was having sex with multiple partners, if they want an abortion, they should get one.

Right there with you on that. Whitebaron, who cares if a woman is constantly aborting. Yea it sounds annoying when she's not using contraception and it's physically bad for her but it's no one else's business. Smokers know smoking is bad for them yet they still do it. Unless you're the father of the unborn, you don't have a say in what she's doing, but even then, in the end, it's still her choice.

[Hellen]

What I am wanting to say is

 

 

I am not against abortion.

 

But as with everything else, it is just the "last" thing that should come.

 

 

Contraception should be easily available. (Should be, yeah :c), and I don't really understand the argument that contraception is expensive, and people rather want an abortion.

 

 

Why needing the crass meassurements, if the easy ones are easily at hand, that is my question.

 

Every woman has the right for an abortion, but my main concern is, that we (the society itself) grow very careless.

 

I am not even on the point of "Not wanting an unborn".

I am on the point of, what a woman is doing with her body.

True, it is her own decision, but also, would you really, just as a point of view, that your girlfriend, daughter or sister constantly aborts instead of using countermeassurements?

 

It's not only the "babymaking" aspect that is growing a bit out of hand, it's the aspect of health reasons.

Because if you do not use a condom, HIV is going to knock on your door.

(And not "I can see if someone has AIDS, I know if that person slept with many others!" Once is enough. Once having unprotected sex with a person that is infected, and doesn't even know it? Yeah. You get the point)

 

I am for a general use of contraceptions, but I do not doom the people that do have abortions, instead of having children they do not want. (No matter the money aspects here!)

 

 

As for the "Recreational activity" point....

 

that sounds to me like "Got something to do? No? Got money to do something? No? Let's have sex".

(Sex isn't only about babymaking, but sex shouldn't be seen as something ... unimportant like watching tv)

 

I am not trying to be the moralic angel, because hell no, I'm not that, but ... anyone else seeing the carelessness here? :c It's sad that sex is being seen as something to pass time with, just because no other possibilities are there.

 

I'd rather watch tv...

 

 

 

Back to my point.

Abortions are okay. They are everyone elses business.

It doesn't mean that I am happy with that, or that I am concuring what happens in other people's bedrooms.

But I like to think that I have enough respect for my own body, that I do not wish for "useless" (read, because of no other reason than boredom) or unprotected sex.

 

 

 

[Rosedamai]

Told myself to stay out of this but a few things.

 

Because if you do not use a condom, HIV is going to knock on your door.

Unless you both have been tested negative for HIV.......

 

(Sex isn't only about babymaking, but sex shouldn't be seen as something ... unimportant like watching tv)

 

I am not trying to be the moralic angel, because hell no, I'm not that, but ... anyone else seeing the carelessness here? :c It's sad that sex is being seen as something to pass time with, just because no other possibilities are there.

Not my life, not my concern, not gonna care. That's YOUR view on sex. Someone else may think differently.

Edited October 23, 2013 by ylangylang

[Kith]

I think people are reading the wrong things into the use of "recreational." In this context, it's used as an opposite to "procreational," or to put it another way, sex with the intent of making babies vs. sex without the intent of making babies. Recreational sex doesn't mean you're having sex because you're bored, have nothing else to do, etc. It means you're doing it without wanting a baby to result from it.

 

Are there people who are careless in their sexual practices? Yes. Are there people who have sex to cure boredom? Likely. But that's not really what is being discussed when people mention recreational sex.

[prairiecrow]

As for the "Recreational activity" point....

 

that sounds to me like "Got something to do? No? Got money to do something? No? Let's have sex".

(Sex isn't only about babymaking, but sex shouldn't be seen as something ... unimportant like watching tv)

Why not?

 

Seriously, I'm curious. Sex is fun, sex is physical, sex has all kinds of health benefits. If an interested person finds someone else who's interested in engaging it without emotional attachment, why shouldn't they have a good time? Why shouldn't it be something that can be indulged in like a game of tennis?

[Kestra15]

As for the "Recreational activity" point....

 

that sounds to me like "Got something to do? No? Got money to do something? No? Let's have sex".

(Sex isn't only about babymaking, but sex shouldn't be seen as something ... unimportant like watching tv)

 

I am not trying to be the moralic angel, because hell no, I'm not that, but ... anyone else seeing the carelessness here? :c It's sad that sex is being seen as something to pass time with, just because no other possibilities are there.

 

I'd rather watch tv...

Umm...ouch, thank you.

 

My lover and I do quite a bit to pass the time - we both do voluntary work (seperate and together), I have my job and degree, she has her job and Access course. We enjoy an afternoon around the Monopoly board, or watch some movies, or she'll read a book and I'll play on the Playstation. We go out for drinks with friends, we go for walks, go bowling, etc. We also have sex a couple of times a day, but it certainly isn't 'unimportant,' it's not because we have no money or time or imagination, and we certainly explore plenty of opportunities to pass time. It's just another one in our arsenal, which like the others is another kind of bonding experience and a wonderful way to relax and explore each other - certainly the cuddles and pillow-talk are some of the sweetest moments of our relationship.

 

You'd rather watch TV, and that's fine. If that's your relaxation, your past-time, then go for it and I won't judge you for it. If something makes you happy and brings no harm or inconvenience to another person then I will not berate you for it. But don't judge me on your likes and dislikes.

[hazeh]

How about, sex is fun for some people and they like it so let them have it as long as everyone participating is able to consent to the act?

Leave it at that. There is no point to go into definitions and explanations about when or not sex is "okay" (unless it's rape). Sex means different things to different people.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Kestra15]

The fact that you can't find a statistic about it doesn't mean it happens rarely. It means there isn't a statistic about it. This sort of thing also tends to go unreported.

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unin...ntraception.htm

 

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/Unin...methods_508.pdf

 

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/contracept...eneral-overview

 

Failure rate of condoms in perfect use: 2%. Rises to 15 - 18% for inexperienced users (no pun intended...)

Edited October 23, 2013 by Kestra15

[Brite]

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unin...ntraception.htm

 

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/Unin...methods_508.pdf

 

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/contracept...eneral-overview

 

Failure rate of condoms in perfect use: 2%. Rises to 15 - 18% for inexperienced users (no pun intended...)

Another reason why schools should teach the correct ways to use condoms and other contraceptions instead of relying on the whole "Wait for your twwuuu wuuvv and you won't have any worries."

 

The most my highschool taught me during the abstinence program is "Condoms are dandy but they may not help very much." No seriously, the only thing I remember about them talking about condoms were "It's gotta be used properly or this can happen." That's it. No explaining how they work, how to use them, what they can do, ect.

 

Edit: Not bashing on abstinence, some people are willing to wait, some aren't, but it's the fact that the lack of education is what boils my blood.

Edited October 23, 2013 by GhostChilli

[Infinis]

Because if you do not use a condom, HIV is going to knock on your door.

(And not "I can see if someone has AIDS, I know if that person slept with many others!" Once is enough. Once having unprotected sex with a person that is infected, and doesn't even know it? Yeah. You get the point)

HIV doesn't happen randomly like that. It's not a case of "use a condom or AIDS!" And even if you use a condom you can still get HIV because it can be transmitted through other bodily fluids, including blood and saliva, which is the reason donated blood has to be screened now.

 

Also, at least one partner has to actually have HIV to pass it to another. Contact with an infected individual also does not guarantee infection, also.

 

I fail to see a problem with recreational sex...I don't really want to know what people do in their bedrooms or with other people as long as it's consensual. I personally find sex and the trading of bodily fluids in general to be unremittingly disgusting, but other people enjoy it, so, uh, good for them.

 

I bet the rate would go down for inexperienced users if people were taught proper sex ed, either by parents or schools or both. Or reading the instructions, if they come with any. Abstinence should be taught but in conjunction with other things...abstinence only may have worked sometime in the past but not anymore.