Jump to content
Bear

Abortion

Recommended Posts

I honestly don't pay attention to a persons gender on the forum, I actually thought whitebaron was a woman. I don't care if it's a man or woman telling another they can't get an abortion even if they want to. I agree that counseling AFTERWARDS is what is needed plus lots of support from people. What is NOT needed are others forcing a woman to not only state her reason why she wants to terminate a pregnancy, but also force her to take counseling because of it.

 

The way it was said made me assume you meant counseling and a reason was needed before she could even attempt to get an abortion.

Share this post


Link to post
Or because the statement was: "Actually, I think that a woman should not only provide a reason, but go through intensive counselling."

 

Implying:

-A pregnant person has to have somebody else approve their decision before they can take control of their own life

-They will be forced through "intensive" so likely time consuming counseling beforehand, which could push them out of the time frame allowed for abortions

-A pregnant person can't even decide if they want counseling or not, they are forced into it

 

If that's not what the statement meant, it is very, very badly worded.

All good points.

 

Also, "impartial" counselling very seldom is. If abortion was upheld in these counselling sessions as a positive outcome, I'll bet the pro-life factions would be screaming the ceiling down and demanding equal time for their own agenda, which frankly might consist of outright lies, "scare tactics" or misrepresentations of scientific fact.

 

Also also, there are cases where counselling simply isn't necessary because the pregnant individual KNOWS what they want, and aren't about to have their mind changed. When I got pregnant... well, let's just say that every day I was pregnant was a day I considered taking my own life, so no amount of argument would have pushed me in the other direction. In fact, any attempt at counselling to "present me with the options" would only have made things even worse.

Share this post


Link to post

The way it was said made me assume you meant counseling and a reason was needed before she could even attempt to get an abortion.

Starting before abortion would be a lot better, yes.

BTW: In any civilized culture, you can declibe medical aid, which counselling is. So while I'd advise on 2 weeks and more upfront counselling, that would be to support the woman and not "demean" her.

 

One has to wonder: is it so bad to have a middle-ground attitude on abortion that your statements all get read and interpreted in the worst way possible so one can steamroll over it?

 

 

Also, @sock: so youre saying men dominate women all the time, and thus are not allowed opinions anymore? O.o

 

@prairie: you seem scarred from that experience. Sorry to hear that.

 

I'd really prefer people to never need an abortion, and with protection, quite some pregnancies (especially teens) could be hindered in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post

In the U.S. if they deem you in need of counseling you have no option to not go. And there are plenty of people here that would so very easily say any woman that wanted an abortion was in need of such couseling. And you really can't regulate how fair it would be, there are actually fake abortion clinics here that will tell you they will give you one but force you to keep waiting until it's too late. Those kind of places could so very easily take advantage of women having to go to counseling before getting an abortion. And the counselor could have their own opinion whether or not abortion is a viable option and go from there. Here in America we have almost everyone telling women they cannot do what they want with their bodies, and men feel they have a right to make sure their child is born and not aborted. Some places they actually DO have that right. A rapist can sue their victim for the child cause by the rape.

 

You seem to have the impression that women aren't 100% sure with themselves when they make the choice to abort. I definitely need to disagree with you on that. It's not something that is taken lightly, and there are women that know what they will do even before they are pregnant so treating them like they don't know what they want is demeaning and insulting.

 

And unfortunately we will never live in a world where abortions are never needed, because there will always be rapists, there will always be uneducated children, there will always be protection that fails, and there will always be women who know that they do not want a fetus that is growing inside them.

Edited by Cecona

Share this post


Link to post

I know most of you are in teh US - but please try to remember that several of us *aren't* and that just because something works that way where *you* are doesn't mean it works in anything approaching the same way where we are. The US healthcare system has major failings *period*, and suggestions made by people that are not from the US would obviously not be taking that into account.

Share this post


Link to post
You seem to have the impression that women aren't 100% sure with themselves when they make the choice to abort. I definitely need to disagree with you on that. It's not something that is taken lightly, and there are women that know what they will do even before they are pregnant so treating them like they don't know what they want is demeaning and insulting.

 

And unfortunately we will never live in a world where abortions are never needed, because there will always be rapists, there will always be uneducated children, there will always be protection that fails, and there will always be women who know that they do not want a fetus that is growing inside them.

THIS. ^^^

 

That's one thing that annoys me no end, the implication (or the outright statement) that women don't know their own minds -- or worse, that they get abortions so they can fit into that slinky little black cocktail dress they saw in the shop window. I've known a number of women who've had abortions, and it has NEVER been a casual decision, or one that they made lightly. Do some women approach it that way? Almost certainly, but that doesn't mean that every woman who chooses to abort deserves to be treated like a child or an idiot who needs the "help" of someone smarter/better than her to decide what she wants to do with her own life.

Share this post


Link to post
I know most of you are in teh US - but please try to remember that several of us *aren't* and that just because something works that way where *you* are doesn't mean it works in anything approaching the same way where we are. The US healthcare system has major failings *period*, and suggestions made by people that are not from the US would obviously not be taking that into account.

Then it should go both ways, people in other countries shouldn't assume something that would work there will work here in the U.S. where abortion laws are insanely unfair and anti-woman.

Share this post


Link to post
Then it should go both ways, people in other countries shouldn't assume something that would work there will work here in the U.S. where abortion laws are insanely unfair and anti-woman.

I'm not asking you to understand the systems that everyone comes from - I'm just saying don't expect the rest of the world to be as crappy as the US, and get massively wound up from there.

 

Because guys, really, it's coming across very much as if you're attacking people that are *supporting* choice.

Share this post


Link to post

Women shouldn't have to go through hoops in order to get an abortion though, and that is what people keep on implying. That before they even get an abortion a woman has to have other people dictate whether she deserves it or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Women shouldn't have to go through hoops in order to get an abortion though, and that is what people keep on implying. That before they even get an abortion a woman has to have other people dictate whether she deserves it or not.

That's certainly what's setting off MY flashing red danger signals...

Share this post


Link to post

@cecona: interesting. What would ve the legal consequence of not seeing a counsellor, and why? And who is "they"?

 

@prarie: well, since you are that snarky today, I decided not to counter, because you'd take it awfully personally.

 

 

As for women knowing what to do and being 100% sure...

I just read up a little on the causes for unintended pregnancies. It seems the US has one of the highest rates in the first world nations, and about half of them (meaning over a million) are because no contraceptives were used.

Seems theres a lot more trouble around abortions than I was aware of - over 1300 babies get aborted each day just because people were to lazy to protect themselves???

 

link to numbers

Share this post


Link to post

@prarie: well, since you are that snarky today, I decided not to counter, because you'd take it awfully personally.

Counter what, exactly? My statement that I get wary when it comes to people telling women that they can't think for themselves? (And don't confuse snarky with determined -- two completely different things, right here.)

 

ETA: And as for the "half of unwanted pregnancies are from no contraceptive use"... is Shiny still around with her Big Box O' Statistics? Because I recall the number being much lower (under 7%, IIRC).

Edited by prairiecrow

Share this post


Link to post

@cecona: interesting. What would ve the legal consequence of not seeing a counsellor, and why? And who is "they"?

 

@prarie: well, since you are that snarky today, I decided not to counter, because you'd take it awfully personally.

 

 

As for women knowing what to do and being 100% sure...

I just read up a little on the causes for unintended pregnancies. It seems the US has one of the highest rates in the first world nations, and about half of them (meaning over a million) are because no contraceptives were used.

Seems theres a lot more trouble around abortions than I was aware of - over 1300 babies get aborted each day just because people were to lazy to protect themselves???

 

link to numbers

Most likely jail.

 

And I don't think it has to do with laziness, but more with a lack of proper education about safe sex and protection. You will not believe how many people actually think pulling out is a good way to prevent pregnancy. Our country seems to think teaching abstinence is the best choice, and the only sex ed my school provided was nothing but showing what diseases you get from having sex. most the country thinks it's taboo to mention stuff like condoms and birth control around minors even if those minors are already having sex.

 

Also these numbers here:

48% of women with an unintended pregnancy said they were using birth control during the month they got pregnant

 

40% of women with an unintended pregnancy who gave birth were using contraception when they got pregnant, compared with 54% of women with unintended pregnancies who had abortions.

 

Tells me that pretty much half of unwanted pregnancies are not from laziness as you said, but a form of protection failing.

Edited by Cecona

Share this post


Link to post

And in any case, in the end, I have to ask: does it really matter? The pregnancies are still unwanted, and I honestly fail to see what the difference is between ending a pregnancy for "a good reason" and ending it for "a bad reason" -- in the end, a fetus is still aborted.

 

One mindset in which is does make a difference (not saying anyone here has this mindset, just that I've seen it in action) is the mindset where pregnancy is a punishment for "loose" women -- they had sex, so they have to pay for it.

Edited by prairiecrow

Share this post


Link to post
Most likely jail.

[...]

48% of women with an unintended pregnancy said they were using birth control during the month they got pregnant

[...]

Tells me that pretty much half of unwanted pregnancies are not from laziness as you said, but a form of protection failing.

Jail? You still did not say why or how, thats awfully unclear to me.

 

Which means that if 48% did use contraceptives, that 52% did not.

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, increasing/improving sex ed and having better/cheaper/free access to contraceptives would help reduce the rates of abortion. But that doesn't change the fact that there will be unwanted pregnancies and for those people access to an abortion needs to be without major hurdles or delays. They're under enough stress already, with an unwanted parasite growing inside them [not everyone would feel that strongly, but some do. I know I would if I got pregnant], the last thing they need is a forced two weeks of counseling that might push them out of the time when abortions can be performed and no matter what delay what they know they want to do. Sure, have impartial counseling available, even strongly suggest it be done, but if a woman says "no, I want it now" give it to her.

 

 

It turns out that I actually had a pretty darn good sex ed class in high school compared to what others are describing. They talked about all the different kinds of birth control and the pros and cons of each and if they protected from STDs or just pregnancy, and how effective they were. They also stressed that pulling out is NOT a good contraceptive method. And to combine methods such as a condom AND the pill to be extra sure, and that using two condoms is a horrible idea because they rub on each other and cause a rupture.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

Share this post


Link to post
And in any case, in the end, I have to ask: does it really matter? The pregnancies are still unwanted, and I honestly fail to see what the difference is between ending a pregnancy for "a good reason" and ending it for "a bad reason" -- in the end, a fetus is still aborted.

 

One mindset in which is does make a difference (not saying anyone here has this mindset, just that I've seen it in action) is the mindset where pregnancy is a punishment for "loose" women -- they had sex, so they have to pay for it.

My mom has that mindset, she believes that if a woman is having sex and gets pregnant she should have to keep it because she was the one sleeping around. I also asked her about women who have tokophobia which was mentioned earlier in the thread and she said if a woman is so afraid of being pregnant she shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

 

And Baron that 52%, if that is even the real statistic, is not pure laziness. Like I said america is full of people that think it's still bad to talk about safe sex or for people that are not married to have sex.

 

And if a woman not going to counseling she is required to go to is treated just like any other case where a person refuses to go to a required or court ordered therapy, there will be a warrant for her arrest and she will need to go to court, which is where she is sentenced to either go to counseling again or is given a certain amount of time in prison. Either way, it would be very time consuming and torturous for the woman, and it would be highly possible the woman ends up being forced to wait past the point where she can no longer abort and she is stuck with that unwanted child no matter what she wanted because other people felt they knew her better than she knew herself. That is the best I can explain it without having to dig anything up.

Share this post


Link to post

So while I'd advise on 2 weeks and more upfront counselling, that would be to support the woman and not "demean" her.

 

Before or after an abortion?

 

One has to wonder: is it so bad to have a middle-ground attitude on abortion that your statements all get read and interpreted in the worst way possible so one can steamroll over it?

 

If "middle ground" means denying some pregnant persons an abortion because "I don't like their reason", then yeah, that's bad.

 

Also, @sock: so youre saying men dominate women all the time, and thus are not allowed opinions anymore? O.o

 

I have no idea what this means or where it came from. You asked if (cis)men stopped pregnant people from getting abortions a lot and my answer was "yes they do".

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

Share this post


Link to post
As for women knowing what to do and being 100% sure...

I just read up a little on the causes for unintended pregnancies. It seems the US has one of the highest rates in the first world nations, and about half of them (meaning over a million) are because no contraceptives were used.

Seems theres a lot more trouble around abortions than I was aware of - over 1300 babies get aborted each day just because people were to lazy to protect themselves???

 

link to numbers

Why do you automatically assume that not using contraceptives means they were just lazy? That's a fairly big leap of logic there.

 

You *can't* use contraceptives if you were never *taught* about their existence, or their importance, or *how* to use them. Which, unfortunately, MANY people are NOT taught. Sex-ed OFTEN consists of "don't have sex" and not much else.

 

As others have said, things would help a *lot* if there was PROPER sex ed available to EVERYONE, including what sex is (seriously, that's needed), multiple types of contraceptives and how they work and how effective they are, the risks of sex including different diseases, pregnancy and what pregnancy will do to your body and emotions and how risky it can be, abortion is an option, etc etc etc etc.

 

THAT will be most helpful when it comes to people not using contraception, because it's *not* just "lazy"ness.

 

 

Also, I think it's a wonderful idea to provide the *option* of counseling to a woman who is pregnant. Whether or not they are seeking an abortion, pregnancy itself is *still* very very hard physically and emotionally and counseling should be available regardless. But it should be their *own choice*.

Share this post


Link to post

@prarie: well, since you are that snarky today, I decided not to counter, because you'd take it awfully personally.

 

 

As for women knowing what to do and being 100% sure...

I just read up a little on the causes for unintended pregnancies. It seems the US has one of the highest rates in the first world nations, and about half of them (meaning over a million) are because no contraceptives were used.

Seems theres a lot more trouble around abortions than I was aware of - over 1300 babies get aborted each day just because people were to lazy to protect themselves???

 

link to numbers

First off, telling someone that they are "snarky" today and won't reply is contradictory, you're asking for a reply, if not antagonizing for one.

 

And seriously, people that don't want to get pregnant AREN'T freaking lazy. Crap happens; BC fails, comdoms break, lack of EDUCATION, so assuming that women are lazy for getting pregnant and then getting an abortion is a pretty messed up. Your link says nothing about women being lazy, it's giving stats like this

40% of women with an unintended pregnancy who gave birth were using contraception when they got pregnant, compared with 54% of women with unintended pregnancies who had abortions.

 

How is this lazy.

Edited by BlightWyvern

Share this post


Link to post

Just two reminders from your mathematical nurse; statistics alone mean nothing. Half of abortions are due to lack of contraception leaves a very, very wide field of reasons within it, which can be due to lack of education, funding, experience, improper use of contraceptive devices, out-of-date devices, and on top of that would also encompass non-consensual sex and sex without capacity. It also does not mean that lack of contraception is the only factor.

 

Second, counselling is by its very nature partial, as it's aims are entirely patient-centred and is based on a patient's willingness to engage, participate, respond and react to counselling, which itself will be different depending on patient and therapist, let alone things like types and styles of therapy (PCT, CBT, group, anger management, marriage counselling, etc). So looking for 'impartial counselling' is like looking for rocking horse poo.

 

I haven't got my glasses and I've been working for most of the last eighteen hours, so I'll leave it there.

Share this post


Link to post

Making any form of pre-abortional counseling mandatory is something I am vehemently opposed to. No matter how much you legistate that it must be impartial, it won't ever become completely so. It will inevitably be used to harass women seeking abortions.

Even regular counseling can be rather stressful. (As for me who I have gone through psychological evaluations to obtain certain permits - those have easily been the most exhausting, stressful things I have endured the past three years, and I am under a constant load otherwise, multiple things being critical simultaneously.) Counseling is never some "magic thing" to fix everything, and if carried out incorrectly - perhaps even through just not by not taking account of the specifics of the individual under question - can do far more harm than good. (I just talked with someone about how much **** some psychologists have done with people a short while ago... His friend is practitioning.)

 

Besides, if it is a thing you can't opt out of ... there are people who simply cannot take the time to go to counseling. The might have work, existing family to take care of, they might not have got a car and be living in some remote location, et cetera, et cetetra, et cetera... Spending two extra hours a week can easily mean that the person gets fired in some workplaces, for instance.

 

Besides, two weeks? Or MORE? It is a rather notable amount of time, you know, as far as pregnancy is concerned. Not only is the stage of the pregnancy constantly advancing (and abortions are better done as early as possible), but the amount of psychological damage someone tokophobic/mentally unstable will take from having to endure the pregnancy for so long? They'd more likely slice their abdomens open with butcher knives than go throught that. (Almost every second woman to commit suicide is pregnant, I recall from some statistic. I think it was one of Shiny's?) What about the physical effects of pregnancy? What about people who are taking meds which will damage a fetus?

 

Pregnancy is not an easy thing, not even for people who actually want to be pregnant and give birth. I know many a woman who got permanent health complications from pregnancy. It's less like a walk in the park and more like working in a construction yard and being injected with a load of bizarre chemicals every day without a break. Some preganant women literally go crazy for the duration, from eating habits (craving paper (yes, the printer-kind), chili peppers, unboiled macaroni, to name a few things from amongst people I know) to behavior patterns to everything else. :blink:

Edited by Shienvien

Share this post


Link to post
First off, telling someone that they are "snarky" today and won't reply is contradictory, you're asking for a reply, if not antagonizing for one.

 

And seriously, people that don't want to get pregnant AREN'T freaking lazy. Crap happens; BC fails, comdoms break, lack of EDUCATION, so assuming that women are lazy for getting pregnant and then getting an abortion is a pretty messed up. Your link says nothing about women being lazy, it's giving stats like this

40% of women with an unintended pregnancy who gave birth were using contraception when they got pregnant, compared with 54% of women with unintended pregnancies who had abortions.

 

How is this lazy.

Severe lack of education. It really blows my mind. Not just the fact that some children aren't taught what sex is and what it can do, but the "myths" that are taught on some religious grounds such as having sex on a sunday won't get you pregnant or with something under the mattress in superstitious beliefs. It's ridiculous

Share this post


Link to post

Wow. According to the statements here it seems like many a third world country has by now better sex ed than the U.S....

 

Also, looked at numbers again: on average, every woman in the us has more than one abortion in her life.I can see why you-re so adamant about easy access, then.

Share this post


Link to post

Wow. According to the statements here it seems like many a third world country has by now better sex ed than the U.S....

 

Also, looked at numbers again: on average, every woman in the us has more than one abortion in her life.I can see why you-re so adamant about easy access, then.

Numbers do not work that way, I don't think.

 

Where exactly did you get that figure? It is literally impossible for every single woman in the US to have or have had even one abortion in their life, because there are plenty of women who are not able to even get pregnant. I'm not so much doubting the data as the way you're stating it, because "every woman in the us has more than one abortion in her life" is not the same thing as "statistically, the total number averages out to X number per female of childbearing age", which is what I presume you meant. Yeah, it may be a reason for us to want easy access, but it's a way better one for wanting better sex education and access to contraception.

 

I'd be interested to see where your data is coming from. The average number of abortions per year overall in the US is somewhere over 1 million, but way less than two, and there are definitely way more women than that here. (It's about 1.3 million for unplanned, not sure about a total number on planned pregnancies that had to be terminated.) Is that an averaging of just women who've had abortions, or is supposed to be for all women in the US? Even the total from 1973-2012, which is about 55 million, doesn't sound like enough to average out to more than one per female of childbearing age.

 

(Edited because I was being snarkier than necessary, and also to add actual data.)

Edited by LascielsShadow

Share this post


Link to post

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.