Abortion

[Kestra15]

Wow. According to the statements here it seems like many a third world country has by now better sex ed than the U.S....

The US medical system is, in comparison to other developed countries, rather poor; I believe the WHO rank it somewhere in the late forties. So naturally medical education will not be so strong.

He said on average, meaning that if one woman had 3 and two others had 0 they average out to each having had one.  With large numbers, unless you also include the average number that each woman who had an abortion had, averages across the whole population are all you can work with.

This.

 

Basic statistics will tell you that a mean average is not going to be accurate, and that consideration of other averages would be appropriate; I would be interested to see the range and mode averages as well as the mean.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Kestra15

[whitebaron]

The US medical system is, in comparison to other developed countries, rather poor; I believe the WHO rank it somewhere in the late forties. So naturally medical education will not be so strong.

 

This.

 

Basic statistics will tell you that a mean average is not going to be accurate, and that consideration of other averages would be appropriate; I would be interested to see the range and mode averages as well as the mean.

Well, there are some statistics by the CDC - but harder to find with government shutdown.

 

50/1000 african american

32/1000 hispanic

13/1000 white

women in the "proper age range" (15-44) have abortions. It seems that abortions have gone back drastically in the recent years, what they don't say though is whether its because of the economy, or what drove it down by over 10% from 2006-2012.

 

@Lasciel: I had a mistake in my calculation, but it does indeed work that way.

According to above values and my now increased knowledge about us demographics: (total value over the course of 30 fertile years)

african american: 1.5 abortions per woman

hispanic: around 1 abortion per woman

white: 0.5 abortions.

 

total: around 0.75. So its less than 1 abortion per woman, but not much so.

[Pokemonfan13]

What's driving them down is so many states are making it so hard to get one. That's why it's an issue, because we're fighting to keep them available.

[Brite]

What's driving them down is so many states are making it so hard to get one. That's why it's an issue, because we're fighting to keep them available.

They'll always be available. Legal or not. That's what probirthers and lifers need to understand. Illegalizing will NOT stop women from getting one.

[BlitzDrake]

Illegalizing will NOT stop women from getting one.

It will just make them more dangerous and life threatening.

[whitebaron]

What's driving them down is so many states are making it so hard to get one. That's why it's an issue, because we're fighting to keep them available.

Ok, so, I read up a little more on the reports done by cdc and the guttmacher institute:

it is estimated, that only 60%-70% of abortions done get reported. Reporting to cdc is voluntarily, 5-7 states do not turn in abortion statistics at all. For the latest report, one of those states is california. Seems like a rather high margin of error.

 

That aside: the births have gone down a lot, too. 2008-2009 saw a large decline of the fertility rate AND the abortion rate, so i'll conclude that its not due to legal aspects. I also checked out (on wikipedia, so dont trust this fully) the laws and bills passed against abortions - there's nothing coinciding with the decline in those years.

[Syaoransbear]

I'd think what's driving down the abortion rate would be better sexual education and more available protection rather than states banning abortions. Because the people who can afford to get an abortion in the first place can also likely afford to go get one in a neighboring state that does allow them.

[ShinyTomato]

I'd think what's driving down the abortion rate would be better sexual education and more available protection rather than states banning abortions. Because the people who can afford to get an abortion in the first place can also likely afford to go get one in a neighboring state that does allow them.

This isn't actually true. Many women can scrounge up a few hundred dollars to get an abortion, but to put that few hundred dollars on top of gas money, train faire, bus fare, and lodging to travel out of state means many can't afford it.

 

For example, Nebraska is forcing a girl to give birth. A 16 year old who was abused and in foster care is not being allowed to have an abortion. The highest court in the state declared in a 5-2 decision that she hadn't proven she was “sufficiently mature and well informed” enough to decide to have an abortion. The judge even went so far as to inform the 16 year old that she would be "killing her baby".

 

In this kind of atmosphere of abortion denial, where apparently the state removing you from your home doesn't qualify you from exemption of getting parental consent under "abuse in the home" for the parental consent laws.

[Pokemonfan13]

That is idiotic. At 18 in the US a person is considered an "adult" and would be able to make their own decision about something like getting an abortion. So in those two years [less I bet] it would take her to reach 18 she's going to gain that much maturity etc that she is completely incapable of making a decision for herself? Get real.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[Brite]

This isn't actually true. Many women can scrounge up a few hundred dollars to get an abortion, but to put that few hundred dollars on top of gas money, train faire, bus fare, and lodging to travel out of state means many can't afford it.

 

For example, Nebraska is forcing a girl to give birth. A 16 year old who was abused and in foster care is not being allowed to have an abortion. The highest court in the state declared in a 5-2 decision that she hadn't proven she was “sufficiently mature and well informed” enough to decide to have an abortion. The judge even went so far as to inform the 16 year old that she would be "killing her baby".

 

In this kind of atmosphere of abortion denial, where apparently the state removing you from your home doesn't qualify you from exemption of getting parental consent under "abuse in the home" for the parental consent laws.

Okay so they decide she isn't well informed enough and not mature enough to get an abortion but she's mature enough to be a mother and go through the pregnancy and birth with higher risks of danger? Oh my...

[MasterWeavile898]

I think I'm going to blunt and say that they were grasping at straws trying to find a good reason to keep her from getting an abortion. (Way to be unbiased )

[TikindiDragon]

Okay so they decide she isn't well informed enough and not mature enough to get an abortion but she's mature enough to be a mother and go through the pregnancy and birth with higher risks of danger? Oh my...

This was my reaction. There's all kinda of failing to make sense in that decision.

[whitebaron]

For example, Nebraska is forcing a girl to give birth. A 16 year old who was abused and in foster care is not being allowed to have an abortion.

hmm:

 

a ) that girl is no longer pregnant (she had an abortion elsewhere, pretty soon after the court case...)

b ) she is living with her foster parents for quite some while (they are not who abused her), and did NOT want to have them find out, as they are deeply religious. So if her foster parents would have been involved, she might have been forced not only to have the baby, but to marry the father as well. Or they'd kick her out if they find out now... So one of the problems of that case is her keeping it away from her new family. I'm pretty sure if the foster parents would be in court, and supportive, that this would have gone differently.

 

c ) That's not a problem of the laws. Its a problem of living in a deeply religious area. Get out or deal with it. Hiding is never a good option.

Edited October 21, 2013 by whitebaron

[Brite]

c ) That's not a problem of the laws. Its a problem of living in a deeply religious area. Get out or deal with it. Hiding is never a good option.

And for the ones who can't get out and have no option?

[whitebaron]

And for the ones who can't get out and have no option?

There are always options. But there will always be those who either

• Are to lazy to follow through
• To desperate to see them
• To afraid of the consequences
• Unwilling to work for it
• Hidden in their self-grief
• To old or to young
• this list could go on longer but most of those would be reasons of people wanting to justify their inaction.

There is nothing stopping a young adult to make a life for themselves anywhere in the states. Same is true for many other countries, as well, but this notion is most supported in the us. And its still true, you just have to work (and work hard) for it.

[Obscure_Trash]

Except for money, job prospects, housing availability, and opportunity. It's really not as easy as you make it out to be to travel somewhere else, not here in the States. Just because we talk big about the "American Dream" doesn't mean we make it that possible to achieve. Minimum wage is not liveable wage. Women and POC incrementally earn less for doing the same jobs (white men -> white women -> black men -> black women -> Hispanic men -> Hispanic women in order of who gets paid the most to least). Latina and black women are at least twice as likely as white women to live in poverty. Pulling yourself out by your bootstraps is just a myth.

 

There's a reason so many women ended up going to Gosnell rather than a safe abortion provider. A large part of the reason was money (and another part due to harassment by "sidewalk counselors").

 

Family planning, health care, abortion providers - all things that need to be easily accessible (and affordable) for people. Not everyone can afford a day or even a few days off work to go get an abortion (and can even less afford a pregnancy).

Edited October 22, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[HeatherMarie]

There are always options. But there will always be those who either

• Are to lazy to follow through
• To desperate to see them
• To afraid of the consequences
• Unwilling to work for it
• Hidden in their self-grief
• To old or to young
• this list could go on longer but most of those would be reasons of people wanting to justify their inaction.

There is nothing stopping a young adult to make a life for themselves anywhere in the states. Same is true for many other countries, as well, but this notion is most supported in the us. And its still true, you just have to work (and work hard) for it.

I can't believe you honestly believe that.

 

*ahem* When I was 16, for example, I was dealing with crippling depression and anxiety that made it a *real* struggle just to go to *school*, nevermind a job too! Lazy? Hell no. No options? YES.

 

If I was in that girl's position and denied the right to abort my child, NO, there wouldn't BE "other options". SIXTEEN years old. NO money to "make a life" somewhere out of state, somewhere that might actually give an abortion. You can't *move* with *no money*. And if you can't work, you can't get money.

 

*Nowadays*, at 26, if I were pregnant and denied an abortion.... Same thing. NO choices. My insurance pays for *everything* medical; Not so in other states, meaning I'd have to somehow have the money to *travel* to another state, find a place to *stay*, on *top* of the medical bills. The job I have right now I make roughly $300/month.... OBVIOUSLY not enough to accomplish all that. Because of afformentioned depression/anxiety problems, I don't HAVE THE OPTION of working full-time or in high-stress jobs.

 

But you are saying that there are ALWAYS options?

[Infinis]

But you are saying that there are ALWAYS options?

There ARE ALWAYS options - whether you can or cannot take advantage of them for whatever reason is the relevant issue. But that doesn't change the fact that options exist.

 

There are always options. But there will always be those who either

Are to lazy to follow through

To desperate to see them

To afraid of the consequences

Unwilling to work for it

Hidden in their self-grief

To old or to young

this list could go on longer but most of those would be reasons of people wanting to justify their inaction.

 

There is nothing stopping a young adult to make a life for themselves anywhere in the states. Same is true for many other countries, as well, but this notion is most supported in the us. And its still true, you just have to work (and work hard) for it.

 

Fear of the consequences is largely borne from a society that continues to think women having a choice about their bodies is bad. I don't blame them, honestly; who would want to be harassed for their choices, put down, declared evil, rejected by parents/friends/family, called a murderer?

 

In the United States, it is not easy or inexpensive to move, especially if you have pets. Apartment rents in general aren't cheap and the price of a house is an unfeasible goal for many. And as for work, finding a job is the FIRST problem with that. :<

 

Just because we keep proclaiming we have the "American dream" doesn't actually mean it's as true as people say it is.

[ShinyTomato]

a ) that girl is no longer pregnant (she had an abortion elsewhere, pretty soon after the court case...)

 

I don't know whether she is or not, as I just heard about the ruling quite recently. If she did manage to procure an abortion out of state, good for her. That does not change the horrifying aspects o the court case.

 

b ) she is living with her foster parents for quite some while (they are not who abused her), and did NOT want to have them find out, as they are deeply religious. So if her foster parents would have been involved, she might have been forced not only to have the baby, but to marry the father as well. Or they'd kick her out if they find out now... So one of the problems of that case is her keeping it away from her new family. I'm pretty sure if the foster parents would be in court, and supportive, that this would have gone differently.

 

I sincerely doubt it. Given the intricacies of the foster system, which varies from state to state, whether they would have been able to stand up with her in court if they wanted too is a question, and because of the law in Nebraska, even if they had wanted to, they may not have been able to notarize the forms to allow her to have the abortion. It was written cloudy on purpose.

 

c ) That's not a problem of the laws. Its a problem of living in a deeply religious area. Get out or deal with it. Hiding is never a good option.

 

I disagree. there is a problem with the law. I'm a social worker. I see kids every day who can't just "deal with" these things. At sixteen you can't legally "get out." The law is fundamentally flawed. It supposes a person isn't legally mature enough to decide to go through a life-altering situation, and thus forces them into a life-altering decision because someone else who doesn't know them, has decided what is best.

 

There is nothing stopping a young adult to make a life for themselves anywhere in the states.

 

That's not true. Again, social worker. There are multiple laws to stop sixteen year-olds, even eighteen year-olds from making a life for themselves. Laws that make it impossible to find a place to live, or worse, even if you are legally emancipated.

[whitebaron]

That's not true. Again, social worker. There are multiple laws to stop sixteen year-olds, even eighteen year-olds from making a life for themselves. Laws that make it impossible to find a place to live, or worse, even if you are legally emancipated.

A young adult is NOT 16 years old, that's an adolescent. if the law needs you to be 21 in various states to be legally a full adult, than that's where that phase would officially begin.

 

 

 

As for the laws being flawed: If there would be a free abortion law, society would still "kill" those socially who did it. So the problem is still not the law, but the conservative, deeply religious community that drives the creation of those laws in the first place!

 

 

@Infinis: I know at least two self-made-upper class citizens from the US, so that dream still can work. :-)

 

One now works as something that sounded like senior principal software development lead at microsoft, and earns mind-boggling numbers each year. His dad was a construction worker, his mum housewife.

[Pokemonfan13]

@Infinis: I know at least two self-made-upper class citizens from the US, so that dream still can work. :-)

 

One now works as something that sounded like senior principal software development lead at microsoft, and earns mind-boggling numbers each year. His dad was a construction worker, his mum housewife.

Just because it is possible doesn't mean it is possible for everyone. The majority of people here, even if they did everything the best they possibly could, have no chance of even making it into the "middle class", which is slowly being killed.

 

I know one person who is basically screwed for life, no fault of his own. It all started with a relationship with a woman. She wanted a baby, so he helped her make one. While pregnant she had to go off her meds, and became a total . After the baby was born, she didn't go back on them. The end result, they broke up and this guy had an arrest for assault with a deadly weapon on his record, even though he did nothing and she was the one who attacked him, but the police believed her. And his weapon? His own body. He's like 6' 6", and apparently sheer size is a deadly weapon, even when the person inside it is a sweetie. He now has to pay an ungodly amount of child support. At one point he was working full time for above minimum wage and paying no rent and was still struggling to make all the bills. He has now lost this cushy job because he wasn't showing up for work. Yep, he also has depression or something similar which can cause him to not show up for work for weeks on end, especially if he can't get his meds. AND he has student loans to pay off with no degree. He is in a hole that it is basically impossible to get out of.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[Cecona]

White Baron just seems heavily misinformed about life here in America. I'm rather offended by him talking like moving or "getting out" is such an easy task, though. That going across state lines to get an abortion would be as easy as going for a walk and the biggest factor people have for not getting the help they need is because "we are lazy" When it comes to something so significant no one in their right mind would be lazy and brush it off like it's weekend homework.

[whitebaron]

White Baron just seems heavily misinformed about life here in America. I'm rather offended by him talking like moving or "getting out" is such an easy task, though. That going across state lines to get an abortion would be as easy as going for a walk and the biggest factor people have for not getting the help they need is because "we are lazy" When it comes to something so significant no one in their right mind would be lazy and brush it off like it's weekend homework.

It seems like I only know the well-done crowd, then. In this thread, it basically sounds like 99% of the us is poor, misinformed, or has some disabilities. Now I ask myself: where do all those other people come from that I know?

 

 

 

@pf13: well, sometimes stuff happens. but, this is far from an ordinary, everyday case. Wouldn't you agree that the majority of us relationships does not end that way?

 

Also, if you sire a kid - best be sure you can afford it. Minimum wage aint no good for a family, in no country of the world.

[prairiecrow]

White Baron just seems heavily misinformed about life here in America. I'm rather offended by him talking like moving or "getting out" is such an easy task, though. That going across state lines to get an abortion would be as easy as going for a walk and the biggest factor people have for not getting the help they need is because "we are lazy" When it comes to something so significant no one in their right mind would be lazy and brush it off like it's weekend homework.

I agree -- ableism much? And classism as well (assuming that everybody has the money to do what they want).

 

Being pregnant when you don't want to be -- and especially when being pregnant is dangerous in terms of your social standing, even potentially involving being disowned and kicked out by your family, thus losing your place to live -- is a tremendously stressful experience, and even people in perfect mental health can find themselves faltering under the strain. Take a person whose emotional health is already compromised and that person could easily be incapacitated (and yes, it IS incapacitation in the same way that cancer-related exhaustion is incapacitating, not "laziness", not "get off your butt because there are always possibilities WHY AREN'T YOU GETTING OUT OF BED AND RUNNING A MARATHON!")

 

In this thread, it basically sounds like 99% of the us is poor, misinformed, or has some disabilities.

 

Please, don't tell me you're lumping those all in as personal failings?

Edited October 22, 2013 by prairiecrow

[diannethegeek]

It seems like I only know the well-done crowd, then. In this thread, it basically sounds like 99% of the us is poor, misinformed, or has some disabilities. Now I ask myself: where do all those other people come from that I know?

 

 

 

@pf13: well, sometimes stuff happens. but, this is far from an ordinary, everyday case. Wouldn't you agree that the majority of us relationships does not end that way?

 

Also, if you sire a kid - best be sure you can afford it. Minimum wage aint no good for a family, in no country of the world.

The laws should protect everyone, not just the upper classes. If your argument for why a law is valid is that those who don't like it and are in a position to should leave, don't be surprised when we point out that there are others who don't have that ability. Whether they're the majority or minority.