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Though I don't think traumatizing someone is a crime.

It isn't the traumatizing that's illegal, its the act that causes it because it can interfere with someone's LIFE.

 

If you kill a kid's puppy in front of them you not only get jail time for animal cruelty, but also for distruction of property, but the sentences are going to be harsher because of the method and the emotional damage too the kid.

 

The very act of rape is tramatizing. Honestly put yourself in the woman's shoes (or if that is difficult to imagine think of it happening to you). Its a violent act of control. You're not going to be able to walk away from it unscathed.

 

Now imagine that in the blink of that tramitizing event you find out something that your attacker did put something inside you that will grow, something you have to carry with you because other people say so. You get no choice, no chance to remove it.

 

Think about it honestly.

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Trauma being illegal is tricky, because most of the time the law mainly cares about what happens to you physically. I doubt you'd get thrown in jail for most forms of emotional abuse, but if you threatened bodily harm to someone and caused them to fear for their safety, then that is illegal. Also, if you flashed someone your private parts you would get thrown in jail for not only public indecency but sexual harassment and that is an offense that would only emotionally affect someone. So not all trauma is a crime, but some is.

 

But Weavile, even if you feel like your grandpa has become older and wiser, he hasn't. He had to be thrown in jail to learn that rape was wrong, somehow he didn't naturally know it was wrong. Raping someone is not something you should need to be punished for in order to learn it's wrong, that should be something you instinctually know is wrong. Anyone who could perform such a heinous act without realizing it's wrong is a monster that should always remain locked up. I wonder how many other things he would need to be thrown in jail for to learn they were wrong. And since he's been in jail for rape for so long, I'm guessing the kind of rape he did was extraordinarily violent.

Edited by Syaoransbear

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Raping someone is not something you should need to be punished for in order to learn it's wrong, that should be something you instinctually know is wrong

You would think that, but it's gotta be hard when society continually attempts to paint the picture of consent as "yes until no and even then usually yes" instead of "no until a firm, unconditional, enthusiastic, sober, sane yes".

 

A lot of times, even the VICTIM will think "But was it really RAPE? I didn't want to, but I said yes, so that means it wasn't, right?"

 

I do agree that it SHOULD be an instinctive thing. But rape culture has made that much harder than it should be with the victim shaming and attempting to blur the lines.

 

It's wrong and horrible. But... I actually feel sorry for SOME rapists--I do agree they need punishing for their crimes, but I feel sorry for them that they grew up in a society that taught them that what they did wasn't wrong. It's censorkip.gif ed up.

 

I've seen something before, not sure where it is now and don't have the time to find it... But how a lot of men will admit to raping somebody outright--as long as you don't use the word "rape" in how you phrase the question, because they don't actually understand that what they did was rape.

 

I think that a lot of people would react more strongly to these "lesser" rapes if they realized that they are, in fact, still rapes even if it didn't involve a lot of physical violence to subdue the victim. We see it time and again with people trying to classify what a "real" rape is, failing to realize that while some rapes are "worse" in that they cause more damage (both mental/emotional and/or physical) to the victims they are all still rape and are all still a horrible crime that shouldn't even happen but needs punishing in the times it DOES happen.

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I remember reading that same thing about men admitting to rape when it's phrased differently. I saw it on tumblr but it would take forever to try and dig it up.

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You would think that, but it's gotta be hard when society continually attempts to paint the picture of consent as "yes until no and even then usually yes" instead of "no until a firm, unconditional, enthusiastic, sober, sane yes".

 

A lot of times, even the VICTIM will think "But was it really RAPE?  I didn't want to, but I said yes, so that means it wasn't, right?"

 

I do agree that it SHOULD be an instinctive thing.  But rape culture has made that much harder than it should be with the victim shaming and attempting to blur the lines.

 

It's wrong and horrible.  But...  I actually feel sorry for SOME rapists--I do agree they need punishing for their crimes, but I feel sorry for them that they grew up in a society that taught them that what they did wasn't wrong.  It's censorkip.gif ed up.

 

I've seen something before, not sure where it is now and don't have the time to find it...  But how a lot of men will admit to raping somebody outright--as long as you don't use the word "rape" in how you phrase the question, because they don't actually understand that what they did was rape.

 

I think that a lot of people would react more strongly to these "lesser" rapes if they realized that they are, in fact, still rapes even if it didn't involve a lot of physical violence to subdue the victim.  We see it time and again with people trying to classify what a "real" rape is, failing to realize that while some rapes are "worse" in that they cause more damage (both mental/emotional and/or physical) to the victims they are all still rape and are all still a horrible crime that shouldn't even happen but needs punishing in the times it DOES happen.

I agree that sometimes it's hard to know and society gives mixed signals, but if his grandpa is still in jail for raping someone 31-40 years ago, I don't think it was one of those cases where it would be harder to recognize that what you were doing is wrong. Murders sometimes do less time.

Edited by Syaoransbear

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Isn't rape pretty simple to define? An off the cuff definition to me would be "if it is not completely 100% consensual it is rape."

 

Even if a guy pressures a gal into saying "yes" doesn't mean she wants to, just means he's intimidating or is a real slick talker.

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Isn't rape pretty simple to define?  An off the cuff definition to me would be "if it is not completely 100% consensual it is rape."

 

Even if a guy pressures a gal into saying "yes" doesn't mean she wants to, just means he's intimidating or is a real slick talker.

I've heard of times when a girl originally says yes, then after intercourse has started she changes her mind but doesn't say anything for whatever reason so the intercourse continues. So the trauma of having intercourse when you don't want to is there. So I guess the girl feels like she is raped but isn't sure if she actually was.

Edited by Syaoransbear

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To me if she honestly said "yes" before it started and doesn't do anything to stop it when she changes her mind, you can't call it rape, since that's just not fair for the guy. He's not psychic, after all. If she tries to stop it and he won't, that's another story.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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I agree that sometimes it's hard to know and society gives mixed signals, but if his grandpa is still in jail for raping someone 31-40 years ago, I don't think it was one of those cases where it would be harder to recognize that what you were doing is wrong. Murders sometimes do less time.

Ah, sorry, I wasn't clear--I was more speaking in general, rather than in this specific case.

 

@Cecona--Yeah, that's where. I found the post now that I had time to check my tags for it. Here it is.

 

 

@Pokemonfan: That's a really hard case. On the one hand, she may have had a reason she was afraid to not say anything. And regardless, she still has that trauma. But, on the other hand, he got a 100% unconditional yes in the first place and she never communicated a change in her situation, and like you said he's not psychic.

 

I would guess that in a case like that, it would be very complicated and would have to look at all kinds of factors to take into account.

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I remember reading that same thing about men admitting to rape when it's phrased differently. I saw it on tumblr but it would take forever to try and dig it up.

I remember that as well. A shockingly large amount of the university populace (?) admitted to rape when they described the various situations on the survey but never actually said the word "rape".

 

 

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To me if she honestly said "yes" before it started and doesn't do anything to stop it when she changes her mind, you can't call it rape, since that's just not fair for the guy. He's not psychic, after all. If she tries to stop it and he won't, that's another story.

Except that our culture is a rape culture, and often we are put into situations where silence is less dangerous (less physically violent, anyway) than a no. A situation in which we don't feel safe saying yes, still isn't a no. I'm not saying this is always the case when people are together, but it's hard to say no, especially after things have already started because there's this idea that you can't revoke consent, which you totally can.

 

If you want more on rape culture: TW for coercion, sexual assault, street harassment, sexual harassment, rape, pedophilia Language in comments and in blogs Mature themes but no in depth description of non-PG-13 material.

101: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

Simple breakdown: http://spitfiregals.files.wordpress.com/20...eculture_v4.jpg (and note that the false rape reports number is actually much lower, less than one or two percent)

I'd say this is kind of between 101 and upper level: http://stfurapeculture.tumblr.com/

Another one between 101 and upper level, slightly more advanced than the previous: http://rapeculturerealities.tumblr.com/

Various personal stories mostly dealing with sexual or street harassment: http://i-once-had-a-guy-tell-me.tumblr.com/

Upper level, personal experiences with rape culture; blog title censors: http://*******rapeculture.tumblr.com/

Upper level, calling out rape apologists and correcting rape myths, blog title censors: http://****norapeapologists.tumblr.com/

Personal stories of street harassment: http://howmanywomen.tumblr.com/

Focuses on showing just how many men are abusive or harass and how normal it is in our culture: http://wtfniceguys.tumblr.com/

Variety of personal stories on sexism which often include rape culture I am hesitant in linking this one because the owner is highly cissexist and transmisogynistic, so do be aware of that if you peruse the blog http://liesthepatriarchytoldme.tumblr.com/

 

Here's an excellent breakdown of how many rapists are actually jailed: http://theenlivenproject.com/wp-content/up...lization_03.jpg (and note that even though the majority of rapists are white, it is mostly black men we are sending to jail for rape).

Rape is considered the most under reported crime (families and friends will often protect the rapist, rapists rarely see jail time, etc.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

 

The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, which defines rape as penetration by the offender,[111] states that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of rapists are male.[112] One of six U.S. women has experienced an attempted or completed rape.[113] More than a quarter of college age women report having experienced a rape or rape attempt since age 14.[114] Some types of rape are excluded from official reports altogether (the FBI's definition, for example, used to exclude all rapes except forcible rapes of females), because a significant number of rapes go unreported even when they are included as reportable rapes, and also because a significant number of rapes reported to the police do not advance to prosecution.[115] As well as the large number of rapes that go unreported, only 25% of reported rapes result in arrest. Many rape kits are not tested.[116] Only 16% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992 and United Nations Populations Fund, 2000a).[117][118] Factoring in unreported rapes, about 5% of rapists will ever spend a day in jail.[119]

 

Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 31% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 27% in the victims' homes and 10% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7% occur at parties, 7% in vehicles, 4% outdoors and 2% in bars.[120] From 2000–2005, 59% of rapes were not reported to law enforcement.[121][122] One factor relating to this is the misconception that most rapes are committed by strangers.[121][123]

 

Drug use, especially alcohol, is frequently involved in rape. A study (only of rape victims that were female and reachable by phone) reported detailed findings related to tactics. In 47% of such rapes, both the victim and the perpetrator had been drinking. In 17%, only the perpetrator had been. 7% of the time, only the victim had been drinking. Rapes where neither the victim nor the perpetrator had been drinking were 29% of all rapes.[120]

 

And note, all too often, due to the successful tactic of "but I was drunk, how could I rape them!?" many rapists actually will get both them and their victim drunk beforehand so they can have an excuse. Alcohol is just a way out of responsibility for them. It's pre-meditated, but easy enough for them to claim it wasn't.

 

Cecona, here is that study you were talking about, in article rather than tumblr form (beaten to it but posting it anyway): http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/s...theyre-rapists/ We can sit here and talk about how easy rape is to define, but truth is, in society, we don't act like that. It's not rape because men deserve sex, right?

 

So I guess the girl feels like she is raped but isn't sure if she actually was.

 

This is due more to the pressure of living in a rape culture and wanting to deny the trauma that happened than it not actually being rape, though.

 

But! We're getting kind of away from the topic of abortion here, so if there are any replies to this, I'll be replying to them in the sexism thread. :3

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Yea let's go ahead and get back to the topic of abortion. I feel more comfortable talking about that than I am talking about rape and rape culture.

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Hi. I am somewhat new to the forums, and thought I'd jump in on this intellectual adventure.

 

I guess I'll start off by saying that I agree with George Carlin when he said "Anti-abortion is anti-women." Has anyone else here heard his little rant on the subject?

Edited by VictoryWolf

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I'm a fan of George Carlin myself, and he definitely had views I could agree with. I think I've actually seen the stand up routine where he says that anti-abortion is anti-women.

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Not to mention that a lot of pro-lifers were brainwashed by their parents and family. It usually turns out that they have no idea how awful life can be and certain actions need to be taken. For example: When I was 12-13, I use to be a pro-lifer. Why? Because my parents told me that it was right and pro-choicers are wrong and baby killers. I believed this UNTIL a very good friend of mine was raped and her parents forced her to remain pregnant. This is when things started to turn and reality was hitting me in the face and my mind permanently turned pro-choice when she almost died giving birth and the baby only survived 3 hours. Her parents actually knew her body was weak (she was going through anorexia at the time) but didn't care. No matter what you say to me, I'll always be pro-choice, because I know that life is grey and for those who think it's black and white are very deluded.

 

To me, if a person can only argue this: Why punish and kill a baby for someone elses actions? She was raped but that doesn't mean the baby should suffer. There's always adoption. What about the baby's choice?

 

This usually means they have no experience in what life can throw at them.

 

And if they DO know how bad life is but continue to say that she must give birth, are the REAL heartless ones.

Edited by GhostChilli

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No kidding. The local newspaper had a bit more info-he did it for "the health and safety of women" and some supporter was saying how we're saying to the rest of the country "trampling on women's rights stops in California." Of course the pro-forced-birthers have their panties in a wad about how abortions are supposed to be "safe, legal, and rare, now they're just legal", like women are gonna go get pregnant just so they can get an abortion. Srsly?

 

And I'm very sorry about your friend-I hope she's as OK as she can be, and I have no words to describe those poor excuses for parents she got stuck with. I'd love to smack them repeatedly with a clue-by-four. mad.gif

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This topic infuriates me even more since Texas passed that BS abortion bill. Fortunately I live near Dallas so if I'm ever raped and impregnated I can do something about it but for other women who live in the middle of nowhere with the nearest abortion clinic being an 8 hour drive, they're either going to have coat hanger abortions or give birth to a baby they will later neglect/abuse/kill because they don't have the money or time to take care of it. Which is worse, killing a fetus or killing a baby?

 

Pro lifers are not pro life. They are pro birth.

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Pro lifers are not pro life. They are pro birth.

Exactly. If they were truly pro-life, they'd be out there campaigning for more programs for mothers and babies (especially the poor ones), working their hardest to ensure that all children are properly clothed and educated, and strengthening the safety net in general.

 

Instead it seems that the second a child is born, that child drops off their radar. It's horribly sad.

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I'm glad that California has passed this new law and Ghostchili, I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

 

But the other day, I was watching the news and there was a pro-life rally, which I think was Christian, on the side of the streets holding up signs about why abortion was wrong and abortion should be illegal in North Carolina, which already is. I was angry when I watched that news. These people have no idea what kind of miserable side-effects they're going to give to NC.

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While I'm all for pro-choice, this is in my eyes a bad direction to go.

While its only 5 in 1000, there are still life-threatening complications that can occur. Without a nearby doctor, you're probably dead if there's a rupture or shock (anaesthetics or the hormones used for opening the cervix )

midwives are trained in all aspects that have to do with birth and pregnancy. It's not like they won't have a trained professional there when it occurs. I doubt they would neglect to get the woman help immediately if she were to hemorrhage and go into shock. All options and outcomes are taken into account.

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midwives are trained in all aspects that have to do with birth and pregnancy. It's not like they won't have a trained professional there when it occurs. I doubt they would neglect to get the woman help immediately if she were to hemorrhage and go into shock. All options and outcomes are taken into account.

You have 10-20 minutes to get the woman to a doctor, trained or not. So if there's complications, she might die. Not worth the risk in my eyes.

 

Yes, midwifes are trained professionals. One of those trained professionals nearly killed a friend of ours. She needed 5(!) blood bottles and various infusions to survive. Accidents happen, as does oversight and tiredness, we can't tell what it was in that case. But if it had been in the USA, they would have been rich. (they got some money for the incident, but it's small compared what you'd be able to sue for in the US)

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While I'm all for pro-choice, this is in my eyes a bad direction to go.

While its only 5 in 1000, there are still life-threatening complications that can occur. Without a nearby doctor, you're probably dead if there's a rupture or shock (anaesthetics  or the hormones used for opening the cervix )

Midwives are usually well trained. They know what they're doing. If something goes wrong, they'll know what to do.

 

EDIT: Doctors make mistakes too.

Edited by sparkle10184

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