Remove dragon (in)compatibility

[angelicdragonpuppy]

From the game's help section:

"“The dragons don’t really show much interest in each other.”—The dragons are compatible, but are not a very good pairing. Note that there is a “spectrum” of compatibility; most pairings will occasionally show no interest, but it might occur more frequently for some pairs than others."

 

It is possible that this suggestion is based on a big misunderstanding--if the above merely means that, say, pairing two rares together is less likely to produce eggs than pairing two commons together (and thus the rare x rare pair yields a lot of "no interest" messages), then all's well and good! But my own experiments and those of several other people I've talked with suggest that the mechanic is on a dragon-by-dragon basis, ie, Sally might never really get along with Samuel simply because lol RNG.

 

If THAT'S how the mechanic works, can it either be removed or changed so that compatibility can change over time, please? Because it's really annoying to think that after going through the trouble of getting dragons, and having them not refuse, and having them potentially be rare dragons that don't breed much at all, much less an egg of the breed you actually need, that on TOP of all that you might have two dragons that simply don't really care for each other for no other reason then because random chance hates you.

 

Other breeding related suggestions, since I might as well put 'em together...

Remove refusals

Valentine BSA to remove refusals

Imperial BSA to remove refusals

Change how breeding works

Edited May 13, 2016 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

Hmmm...... Perhaps a mechanic that shuffled *all* of a particular dragon's breeding tendencies? Because I've also noticed that some dragons are far, far more prone to refusals than others, just as some seem to hate breeding.... with everyone.

 

So a "Shuffle" type deal would take a dragon, and reset all of its breeding parameters as if it was brand new. So you could end up with a dragon who hates breeding even more.... or one that emulates a rabbit.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[misgavr]

why not add percentage of successful mating next to all the dragons that are available to breed in the breeding menu? just saying.

[Starscream]

I don't see that this needs to be changed.

 

Why does all the game mechanics Need to be changed?

 

With me personally, if I don't like a person, that is not likely going to change regardless of the time spent around them. my simply tolerate their presence, but thank gods when I get home and get rid of them. Dragons can be very much like that. Sally might have been chosen to pair with Samuel, but if he says, yeah, she ain't the one, and ignores or refuses her... then why force the issue? They are simply not suited.

 

Dragons in this game may have a sort of personality... and this personality may involve them being eager to get along with any mate, or simply saying - I prefer to be single. Why change this interesting little aspect. Sure it annoys the scroll owner, Heck I have a couple that I have had refuse nearly every mate.

 

In reality as a fish breeder, I had a gorgeous fish I wanted to breed. turns out, as much as she looked male, she was female... but she tried breeding with a female anyway. When I paired her with a male, she nearly killed him. its a realistic sort of idea.

 

Dragons are supposed to be intelligent sentient beings, why are they not permitted a choice. Drakes perhaps can be made to change, but dragons with will power, and own personal ideas should not be able to be forced.

 

My suggestion is to leave the game as is. it works well. It works fine for many. It works fine for me. I don't want it cheap and easy to play. Vampires turning and repulsing is annoying, vampires killing eggs is annoying - but it is a game dynamic that keeps it interesting. So I am no, just no with changing game dynamics that are established.

[Nectaris]

I don't care if it is changed in general. HOWEVER, I think I would like some indication on whether or not that is the case. Like maybe change the wording of the breeding or something, so I don't spend weeks, or months breeding a dragon to an "incompatible" dragon. Especially as I don't breed very often, and don't dedicate much time to it, the chances of me remembering what a specific pair gave last is fairly low.

 

I even think giving users a breeding history of that particular dragon would be nice. It would be link that said something along the line of "breeding history" and it would take you to a page like the actions history page, only it would only show the breeding of that one dragon and its results.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Nectaris

[misgavr]

I don't care if it is changed in general. HOWEVER, I think I would like some indication on whether or not that is the case. Like maybe change the wording of the breeding or something, so I don't spend weeks, or months breeding a dragon to an "incompatible" dragon. Especially as I don't breed very often, and don't dedicate much time to it, the chances of me remembering what a specific pair gave last is fairly low.

 

I even think giving users a breeding history of that particular dragon would be nice. It would be link that said something along the line of "breeding history" and it would take you to a page like the actions history page, only it would only show the breeding of that one dragon and its results.

cant you just look at children tab an see who was its mate?

[olympe]

Not if there are no eggs yet. I have pairs that have been bred several times without ever giving me an egg. *shakes fist at gold x SA dragons - you know who you are!*

[cyradis4]

*snip*

 

I even think giving users a breeding history of that particular dragon would be nice. It would be link that said something along the line of "breeding history" and it would take you to a page like the actions history page, only it would only show the breeding of that one dragon and its results.

A breeding history would be fantastic!

 

Re Star's comment:

While I do like that the dragons have "personality", I think some way to change the breeding habits of certain, specific dragons should be considered. I've got one CB Gold who just doesn't like most others, but it doesn't bother me because I have 7 others. But having a 2nd gen Silver refuse 4 second gen Ices was... painful.

 

So a balance must be struck between an interesting mechanic and changing something that just gets very frustrating very quickly when working on hard-to-replace lineages. I'd prefer a BSA-type deal, myself. I've come across only 2 or 3 dragons, out of all the pairings I've done, who's dislike of breeding is an actual problem. But those few who it is a problem for really are extremely irritating!

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Obscure_Trash]

I also don't really care if this is changed. If it is, yay! But if not? Well, I'm personally just glad it's not a refusal. Rarely breeding is better than never breeding. I don't need a flat rate chance of success every time I breed any pairing.

[Prince_Xanthius]

I would like some clarification on how this works. Because if pairings are genuinely less compatible on a permanent basis, then I would REALLY appreciate a way to reliably tell that (as opposed to guessing because the first try was no interest/no egg). Preferably prior to a successful breeding because I life-mate so once an egg is produced it is game over. They will only breed with each other and if they dislike each other then they just need to suck it up

 

So errr...not especially bothered one way or the other if it changes, but would like to know what it actually is that we are/are not changing. If that makes sense.

[Kovia]

I thought breeding chance had something to do with how frequently you try to breed them? Well and ratios of course.

 

Thing is, I'm not sure that there's a distinct compatibility number in the system somewhere. In Pokemon (I compare a lot of things to Pokemon) breeding chance is based off a combination of typing, level, body size and original trainer. Dragons don't have stats like that; stuff like size clearly doesn't matter since Stones can breed with Mints.

 

 

Honestly, I don't see this convo going far unless TJ tells us whether there's some sort of RNG based compatibility stat. I can't really support or not support since there aren't any facts here yet.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I thought breeding chance had something to do with how frequently you try to breed them? Well and ratios of course.

 

Thing is, I'm not sure that there's a distinct compatibility number in the system somewhere. In Pokemon (I compare a lot of things to Pokemon) breeding chance is based off a combination of typing, level, body size and original trainer. Dragons don't have stats like that; stuff like size clearly doesn't matter since Stones can breed with Mints.

 

 

Honestly, I don't see this convo going far unless TJ tells us whether there's some sort of RNG based compatibility stat. I can't really support or not support since there aren't any facts here yet.

Yah, part of this is me hoping TJ will come in and clarify. It's not entirely baseless, though; I did an experiment myself with 10 Magma x Thunder pairs and 10 Spirit Ward x Thunder pairs, thinking that if the Magma x Thunder ones showed a lot of 'no interest' then it was a by-breed thing, but they showed no more than the other pairings did... and a few other breeders I've spoken with have said the same thing (where a certain pairing of one type will be much less productive than another pairing of the same exact type). Which suggests it's a by-the-dragon thing. Or maybe it's just how often they're bred + how the ratios are going. It's hard to tell, and the help section itself is pretty vague, which is where a lot of the confusion is.

[cyradis4]

I thought breeding chance had something to do with how frequently you try to breed them? Well and ratios of course.

 

Thing is, I'm not sure that there's a distinct compatibility number in the system somewhere. In Pokemon (I compare a lot of things to Pokemon) breeding chance is based off a combination of typing, level, body size and original trainer. Dragons don't have stats like that; stuff like size clearly doesn't matter since Stones can breed with Mints.

 

 

Honestly, I don't see this convo going far unless TJ tells us whether there's some sort of RNG based compatibility stat. I can't really support or not support since there aren't any facts here yet.

I breed my CBs in sets of 8, and typically breed all of one breed to all of another breed in any given week, even if I've gotten what I need from one pair. So my looking at the progeny produce record over many months, you can see that some pairs just produce a lot more than others. 17 eggs vs 5 eggs is a pretty clear difference.... especially when its Falconis! Falconi x Sunrise, that is. Falconis love to produce Falconis, and most of the pairs did so... but one pair produced more than its fair share and another produced hardly any. I see this pattern all across my CBs, too.

 

I've also noticed that some dragons are more prone to refusals than others. For instance, I always breed all my CB Golds at the same time (that is, the 8 females together, the 8 males, and same for the Silvers). One female Gold has racked up quite a number of refusals (she's up to 8, now). Whereas the others typically only have 1 to 3 appease.... In fact, the refusals she's had make up 42% of the refusals my CB Female Golds have had.... and she's only 1 of 8!

 

So yes, while there may not be an official ruling, when you see those kinda numbers in all large sets of long-term breeders AND have something like TJ's vague wording in the Help on the Cave... I, personally, am left with zero doubt that there IS, indeed, some sort of personal compatibility number for each dragon.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[Firebirdwyvern]

I hope I am reading this right...but would this mean that there would be a chance for dragons who refused to 'change their minds'...I would like that.

 

Two pairings who I had them be together...and both refused and won't ever try again...frustrating.

 

If that is what you mean, then I'll say yes.

[VixenDra]

With your very different progenies between exactly the same kinds of pairs, I've been wondering 1 thing though: if you always breed them in the same order, isn't the always 1st bred pair more productive than the always last bred pair? or at least some similar tendency like the first few pairs being more productive than the last few? (Provided the same breed is bred, if a common x rare gives some rares then ofc the progeny will be shorter than of a pair that resulted in more eggs of the common breed?) can't you notice any pattern that might point out to lower productivity being caused by the ratios rather than particular mates porrer compatibility?

 

 

What I'd like to change is to reduce the chance of 'no interest' and have it slowly replaced with 'no egg' the more times the given pair bred together - it's just for the mere RP purpose if sb treats their mated-for-life-dragons as being in loving relationship to not have them 'not into each other' so often, it simply makes more sense:P;

I'm not wishing for more eggs (though it would indeed be sth I wouldn't complain about if implemented) but just for mere not having my couples showing 'no interest' while being so much in love as I treat my couples to be... they should be very used to breedign with each other anyway.... just for mere comfort of my mind, nothing changing to the game as such but just to my feelings during breeding my pairs. It's sth only the breeder can see anyway;)

but yeah, I can dream... who would bother if there are much more important things to work on - like e.g. scroll name change after all those years it has been planned for.

 

 

And I'm strongly against pairs loosing compatibility with time! (-just in case) and would like to see refusals go away.

Edited May 16, 2016 by VixenDra

[Pokemonfan13]

Starscream, that's true if the person is someone that you genuinely will never like. But if it's someone who gives a bad first impression but is pretty cool underneath that, your opinion about them will change over time if you give them half a chance.

 

It seems to me like if there is a permanent preference it would be nice if the site told you about it in a more obvious way than a tendency of "no interest" responses in breeding. It would save people from wasting their time trying to breed dragons that really don't want to be together.

[cyradis4]

With your very different progenies between exactly the same kinds of pairs, I've been wondering 1 thing though: if you always breed them in the same order, isn't the always 1st bred pair more productive than the always last bred pair? or at least some similar tendency like the first few pairs being more productive than the last few? (Provided the same breed is bred, if a common x rare gives some rares then ofc the progeny will be shorter than of a pair that resulted in more eggs of the common breed?) can't you notice any pattern that might point out to lower productivity being caused by the ratios rather than particular mates porrer compatibility?

 

 

What I'd like to change is to reduce the chance of 'no interest' and have it slowly replaced with 'no egg' the more times the given pair bred together - it's just for the mere RP purpose if sb treats their mated-for-life-dragons as being in loving relationship to not have them 'not into each other' so often, it simply makes more sense:P;

I'm not wishing for more eggs (though it would indeed be sth I wouldn't complain about if implemented) but just for mere not having my couples showing 'no interest' while being so much in love as I treat my couples to be... they should be very used to breedign with each other anyway.... just for mere comfort of my mind, nothing changing to the game as such but just to my feelings during breeding my pairs. It's sth only the breeder can see anyway;)

but yeah, I can dream... who would bother if there are much more important things to work on - like e.g. scroll name change after all those years it has been planned for.

 

 

And I'm strongly against pairs loosing compatibility with time! (-just in case) and would like to see refusals go away.

Actually, the Gold who hates everyone is typically the 2nd I breed, and the Falconi that doesn't like to give eggs is in the middle, there are several better at breeding after him.

 

The falconi pairs, in order of when I breed them:

9 offspring: 8 Falconi, 1 Sunrise

10 offspring: all Falconi

12 offspring: 10 Falconi, 2 Sunrise/set

11 offspring: 10 Falcini, 1 Vamp

10 offspring: all Falconi

9 offspring: all Falconi

11 offspring: 10 Falconi, 1 Sunrise

17 offspring: 14 Falconi, 3 Sunrise/set

15 offspring: 13 Falconi, 1 Sunrise, 1 tombstone

 

As you can see, the average was 11 ish, but I had two that produced far more and one that went far less. And most of the Sunrises were produced by one pair. And they are toward the end. When I double checked, the one with hte few babies was about 6 months younger than the others, so I took him off the list. I've had other pairings do that to me too, but they don't have the sheer number of breedings the Falconi x Sunrise had. However, the key point here is that some pairs produce much better / worse than others, and it doesn't seem to matter when in line they are.

 

ETA:

Just came across another pairing that is even more clear: my 2nd gen Teimarrs x Vines. The first two pairs I tried refused, so I swapped the pairs around. The two which had refused? Each have just 5 offspring... The other two pairs? Have 10 and 11. And these have all been breeding since the same time. Since they are a set of 4 for a lineage project, I started breeding them at the same time (August 16th, 2015 are the first eggs), and always breed them at the same times.

http://dragcave.net/progeny/JIU3i

http://dragcave.net/progeny/5RsSZ

http://dragcave.net/progeny/VnMpM

http://dragcave.net/progeny/RWJrs

I find it particularly telling that the two with really poor produce records are also the ones who refused...

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited May 16, 2016 by cyradis4

[angelicdragonpuppy]

My suggestion is to leave the game as is. it works well. It works fine for many. It works fine for me. I don't want it cheap and easy to play. Vampires turning and repulsing is annoying, vampires killing eggs is annoying - but it is a game dynamic that keeps it interesting. So I am no, just no with changing game dynamics that are established.

Cheap and easy to play is extremely different from the reality, even IF incompatibility was removed. I'll use one of my favorite and most prized lineages as an example.

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/Cmrba

 

Nothing, nothing about this lineage was easy. It was all crazy luck and hard work and sighs of relief.

 

First, I got the tinsel. It was a gift from an extremely generous prize owner--rare, not easy occurrence number one.

 

Second, after literally a year and a half of waiting, I got his mate. Now, this wasn't even because I had trouble finding a prize owner. Again I got extremely lucky and found someone willing to help me, and even then it was a struggle. They had their own list to work on, first and foremost, but beyond that they kept producing purple ridgewings or, even crazier, tinsels long before they produced a tan! It wasn't a fun waiting game.

 

After that, I waited with bated breath to see if they would refuse which--thank God!--they didn't.

 

Fourth is... the waiting game. I've been trying for several months now to get a tinsel from the pair to pay back to the prize owner who so kindly gave me the kin. Months of getting no eggs, or the wrong eggs. And in this regard I've actually still been fairly successful; I have a documented lineage pair I've been working on that took ONE HUNDRED SPIRIT WARDS to get a single Ember from the pairing. Breeding is often broken and frustrating for many pairs, especially--bizarrely--for common x common ones. When I've had more success with this stubborn duo, as long as it's taking, then I have had with a common x common pair, you know there's something broken... but I digress.

 

And now, on top of all the frustrations and difficulties I've already had along the way, I'm supposed to just be chill with it if after all that work, all that time, all those wrong eggs produced, on TOP of all that, the dragons are less likely to breed just because lol RNG? No, I'm not digging it.

 

Now, you're right--for a lot of dragons (and thus, a lot of users) this isn't a big issue. CB Mint isn't that interested in CB Sunset? Psssht, no problem, easy fix. But as Cyradis said and I agree, there are some pairs where that is just PAINFUL. I don't want to go through hard work and long waits to get rare dragons, breathe a sigh of relief when they don't refuse, and then find out they just randomly hate each other. Honestly--as with refusals themselves--I wouldn't mind the mechanic staying, so long as there is some way to reset your chances for those really difficult pairs. I don't care if it takes months of trying to trigger a compatibility change, or if it requires some new BSA dragon with a really, really long cooldown. It doesn't have to be easy, but I DO think it should be possible.

 

Also, regarding dragons having personalities being realistic: in the end, gameplay will always trump realism, just as it has in DC with us being able to abandon, kill, and collect powerful wild dragons at our pleasure. Now, again, and I stress: I'd still be okay with that personality remaining--as you said, it does give some dragons cool quirks and more interest--I just want a way to change it for truly difficult to replace pairs. As a few people have pointed out, this is in ways far more realistic then just having a preset compatibility anyway; I'm sure we all know a few people we've changed our opinion towards over the years, for good or ill.

 

[Odeen]

Don't we already have fertility to increase the chance of uncooperative pairings producing an egg?

[silver_tiger]

I'd love an explanation of just how much Fertility increases your chances. I never use it myself, because the few times I can remember trying it, I still usually got a no interest! So what was the point, I may as well just try my chances without that mechanism.

 

I would love some way to change the dragon's minds, yes. Maybe it takes a long time, but for hard to get pairings, or even codes ypu really want to breed together? Yeah, I'd love something to make that possible, eventually.

[Fuzzbucket]

I'd love an explanation of just how much Fertility increases your chances. I never use it myself, because the few times I can remember trying it, I still usually got a no interest! So what was the point, I may as well just try my chances without that mechanism.

 

I would love some way to change the dragon's minds, yes. Maybe it takes a long time, but for hard to get pairings, or even codes ypu really want to breed together? Yeah, I'd love something to make that possible, eventually.

I think Sock posted the amount somewhere - I think it was somewhere around 50%. It CERTAINLY makes a difference. I think a sceptical C4 was the one who ran a test and was amazed.

[olympe]

Don't we already have fertility to increase the chance of uncooperative pairings producing an egg?

That doesn't work nearly as well as we hope in the case of stubborn pairings. I have one stubborn pair that works better without fertility than with.

 

And fertility sure doesn't help with refusals, for even pairs who have had fertility used on them for their first breeding are well able to refuse.

[Odeen]

That doesn't work nearly as well as we hope in the case of stubborn pairings. I have one stubborn pair that works better without fertility than with.

 

And fertility sure doesn't help with refusals, for even pairs who have had fertility used on them for their first breeding are well able to refuse.

I don't know that personal anecdotes are particularly useful in determining the efficacy of fertility. Since it's a probability boost on an unknown metric, confirmation bias is really going to come into play. I remember the thread and case study mentioned by fuzzbucket and it was very involved with pretty blatant positive results in favor of fertility's usefulness.

 

This thread is not about refusals, so mentioning them seems superfluous.

 

Edited for phone typos.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Odeen

[olympe]

What I was trying to get at is that some pairings are too stubborn, even for fertility. Taking a number of random pairings of the same breed combination doesn't exactly test those stubborn pairings, nor do the results for random pairings necessarily help here.

 

If one of those stubborn couples has a breeding chance of 5%, adding a 50% boost will only give them an overall of 7.5% chance of success. That's still very little - and not much help.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

That's a good point, Odeen. Maybe a few of us with no interest pairs could try comparing a few different sets: no interest usuals, no interest usuals + fertility, normal pairs, normal pairs + fertility. The pairing would have to be consistent across all four sets, though, which could be tricky... but if it does seem fertility makes them as productive as normal pairs I can't complain.

 

I do know, though--and I'll admit it's a very small sample size so might not mean anything--but I have an Antarean x Lumina pair that gave me no interest three times in a row, WITH fertility, despite both breeds (antareans especially) being super common.