Posted June 1, 2016 What I was trying to get at is that some pairings are too stubborn, even for fertility. Taking a number of random pairings of the same breed combination doesn't exactly test those stubborn pairings, nor do the results for random pairings necessarily help here. If one of those stubborn couples has a breeding chance of 5%, adding a 50% boost will only give them an overall of 7.5% chance of success. That's still very little - and not much help. I don't know how fertility works (full disclosure). I am skeptical that your suggestion of how fertility works is accurate. I don't have the time or means to dig up the study in question because I'm at work, but if somebody else is bored enough to assist you or if you'd rather look it up yourself I'm sure it's somewhere in the fertility discussion thread. Again, you can't really assign a value judgment to an unknown method of boosting an unknown metric. Sometimes you just aren't right with RNGsus and your luck really is just that terrible regardless of what you do to improve your odds. I've lost so many win checks with a 90+% probability of success - it just happens. It's more useful to crunch the data across long testing periods with good controls and multiple trials rather than to bog yourself down in "well these guys are just stubborn". Share this post Link to post
Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) I think Sock posted the amount somewhere - I think it was somewhere around 50%. It CERTAINLY makes a difference. I think a sceptical C4 was the one who ran a test and was amazed. Yep, that was me, and it was a pretty eye-opening change. I bred 32 Seasonals (a common) to Halloweens: 16 had fertility, 16 didn't. For the 16 without, I had a 58% egg rate, with the usual refusal or two. With fertility, almost all produced eggs. This was done within the same 1 hr period, with the fertility dragons being bred after the non-fertility dragons. Sock copied something TJ said into the FAQ. Essentially, Fertility adds a 1.5 multiplier to the chance of getting an egg: (odds of an egg) x 1.5 (with fertility) = new odds of an egg. Basically, a 50% increase in the chance of an egg. But as was already pointed out.... If you'll get an egg only 5 times out of every 100... that only ups it to 7.5 eggs in every set of 100. Not a difference you'll notice, most of the time. So with the Seasonal x Halloween, the odds of an egg from the first 16 was about 58% (excluding the refusal). With Fertility, it would have been about 85%. What I got was 100% (excluding the refusal). Basically? While its not a statistical valid number of attempts, if you are using breeds that are common (not blocker / not rare) you'll see the difference. But if you are using a breed that already has a really high chance of an egg, you won't see the difference and if you are using rare breeds, you won't see the difference (except over the really long haul). In fact, I specifically chose Seasonals because they'd been hitting at a near 50% rate for some time, so I figured they'd be my best shot at a really noticable difference. Here's the original post I made and the link to the thread: https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=9131040 Fertility, I apologize. I bred 32 Autumn CBs to Halloween CBs. The results: Without Fertility: 8 Winter eggs, 2 no-eggs, 4 no-interests, 2 refusals (without Influence) With Fertility: 15 Winter eggs, 1 refusal The refusals can go one way or another, but what's interesting is that the no-eggs and no-interests all turned into eggs. Its not statistically significant, but.... pretty glaring, none-the-less. I may have to start using Fertility more for my uncommon pairings.... Cheers! C4. So what I may do right now, is re-run the same experiment and see what I get.... And see if the three refusals I get refuse again. Editing with the new re-done experiment: Without Fertility: (This is the set of dragons that *did* have Fertility last time) Eggs: 9 No Egg: 6 No Interest: 1 This is the one that showed no interest: http://dragcave.net/view/I0g4t, though looking at the progeny it did produce a seasonal egg last time. 56% strike rate with eggs. With Fertility: Eggs: 14 No Egg: 2 No interest: 0 87.5% strike rate with eggs, very nearly the 84% that's expected using Fertility. So.... Once again, using Fertility nearly doubled the output. Cheers! C4. Edited June 1, 2016 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted June 1, 2016 ...so basically I just had bad luck, haha. Good to know. I might collect more Purples and try again whenever I get back into breeding, then. Still, to get this back on topic, Fertility doesn't much help with refusals. Or dragons that are just stubbornly refusing to breed. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 1, 2016 I think a reasonable solution to this would be to somehow indicate the attraction level between any given pair that has bred. It could be as simple as showing a green, yellow, or red dot next to each previous partner on the breding page. It doesn't help with irreplaceable pairs that just don't like each other, but it would at least give some indication if we should be looking for a different partner with normal breeding pairs. Because, the thing is, I think a lot of people don't pay enough attention to breedings and results to get a feeling on the compatibility based on messages. It would take a really dedicated thing with spreadsheets and recording every breeding result to get any real handle on compatibility, and it would take months of breeding to get any firm idea if a different partner should be tried. Ideally it would go along with some sort of difficult action, such as a BSA with a long cooldown, that would give the chance to roll the compatibility RNG again. Maybe it could be a combination refusal and compatibility reset action, where using it on a refused pair resets the refusal, while using it on a non-refused pair resets compatibility. For the compatibility reset, there's always the chance that a pair that is indifferent with each other could come to rather dislike each other, rather than the desired result of becoming more compatible. Most people probably wouldn't need or use the action much, but it would be incredibly useful for those working on difficult lineages. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 1, 2016 Cyradis, your test was really interesting, so I decided to run one myself with 20 Sunsong x Halloween pairs, 10 with fertility, 10 without. All were previously untried pairs. With fertility: Eggs: 9 No egg: 0 No interest: 1 (Wanderings x Ringbones) Without fertility: Eggs: 8 No egg: 1 No interest: 1 Bah, not very indicative for me I'm afraid--I thought sunsongs would breed a bit more stubbornly. >___< Share this post Link to post
Posted June 2, 2016 I think a reasonable solution to this would be to somehow indicate the attraction level between any given pair that has bred. It could be as simple as showing a green, yellow, or red dot next to each previous partner on the breding page. It doesn't help with irreplaceable pairs that just don't like each other, but it would at least give some indication if we should be looking for a different partner with normal breeding pairs. Because, the thing is, I think a lot of people don't pay enough attention to breedings and results to get a feeling on the compatibility based on messages. It would take a really dedicated thing with spreadsheets and recording every breeding result to get any real handle on compatibility, and it would take months of breeding to get any firm idea if a different partner should be tried. Ideally it would go along with some sort of difficult action, such as a BSA with a long cooldown, that would give the chance to roll the compatibility RNG again. Maybe it could be a combination refusal and compatibility reset action, where using it on a refused pair resets the refusal, while using it on a non-refused pair resets compatibility. For the compatibility reset, there's always the chance that a pair that is indifferent with each other could come to rather dislike each other, rather than the desired result of becoming more compatible. Most people probably wouldn't need or use the action much, but it would be incredibly useful for those working on difficult lineages. I like this idea. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 2, 2016 I think a reasonable solution to this would be to somehow indicate the attraction level between any given pair that has bred. It could be as simple as showing a green, yellow, or red dot next to each previous partner on the breding page. It doesn't help with irreplaceable pairs that just don't like each other, but it would at least give some indication if we should be looking for a different partner with normal breeding pairs. Because, the thing is, I think a lot of people don't pay enough attention to breedings and results to get a feeling on the compatibility based on messages. It would take a really dedicated thing with spreadsheets and recording every breeding result to get any real handle on compatibility, and it would take months of breeding to get any firm idea if a different partner should be tried. Ideally it would go along with some sort of difficult action, such as a BSA with a long cooldown, that would give the chance to roll the compatibility RNG again. Maybe it could be a combination refusal and compatibility reset action, where using it on a refused pair resets the refusal, while using it on a non-refused pair resets compatibility. For the compatibility reset, there's always the chance that a pair that is indifferent with each other could come to rather dislike each other, rather than the desired result of becoming more compatible. Most people probably wouldn't need or use the action much, but it would be incredibly useful for those working on difficult lineages. I love this idea. It would at least give us an idea of if we should start looking for a new mate, even if we don't get that BSA. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 5, 2016 So .. I'm trying to understand the issue here. Are you saying the dragons that say "dragons don't really show much interest in each other" will never really produce anything together.. ever? Because I was not aware of this. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 5, 2016 So .. I'm trying to understand the issue here. Are you saying the dragons that say "dragons don't really show much interest in each other" will never really produce anything together.. ever? Because I was not aware of this. We're saying that some people have noticed a trend that some dragons are less 'children friendly', shall we say, than others. Some even seem downright asexual. And it's not every dragon, or even every time that this happens, so it's hard to notice it. We, or at least I, would love a way to tell if this is a matter of 'not being in the mood' or a dragon who's just naturally super picky. At this time there's no way to know that your dragons will never produce an egg, or will produce very rarely, so it would be really really nice if we had some indicator that our dragons would be better off being mated to someone else. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 5, 2016 So .. I'm trying to understand the issue here. Are you saying the dragons that say "dragons don't really show much interest in each other" will never really produce anything together.. ever? Because I was not aware of this. The current belief is that dragons that show "no interest" with each other a lot are, while still capable of breeding eggs, far less likely to do so than other pairs--even when the breeds being paired together are exactly the same (i.e., you could have one red x green pair that loves to breed eggs, and another red x green pair that mostly just gives you incessant no interest messages with a rare egg in between). This, of course, can be really frustrating if you get two dragons that are perfect mates for each other, or rare in some way, but they just don't get along well. Unfortunately though this is just what we, the users, have determined--only TJ can confirm if that's truly how the mechanic works. But people have done tests where they breed a bunch of different pairings of the same type together and some pairs consistently show no interest while others give far more eggs, so it does seem that the way I mentioned above is how it works. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 9, 2017 Hello there, old topic! Ran a small experiment to try to see if it was ratio based or individual based. All dragons were new pairings that had not been bred together before. Gold x Silver x 10 No egg 6 No interest 3 Silver 1 Zyu x Fire Gem x 10 No egg 1 Zyu 9 Sooo obviously just a small sample size, but it gives me hope that it might be ratio-based. Does anyone else want to give it a shot? Breed 10 rare x rare pairings (let's say rares here count as golds, silvers, coppers, blusangs, and trios) and 10 common x common pairings released within the last 6 months and see how things turn out. Share this post Link to post
Posted June 10, 2017 If we do the experiment, do you want us to use fertility on half of the pairings? Share this post Link to post
Posted June 10, 2017 If we do the experiment, do you want us to use fertility on half of the pairings? No fertility and use untried pairs please ^^ Share this post Link to post
Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) Okay. Here are my results: gold x silver=no interest brown copper x silver=no interest brown copper x silver=no interest brown copper x silver=copper brown copper x gold=copper brown copper x silver=silver brown copper x silver=refusal (fun fact: silver has refused a different copper before) brown copper x silver=no egg produced brown copper x green copper= no interest brown copper x silver=refuse blue fire gem x scitmar=scitmar blue fire gem x scitmar=scitmar blue fire gem x tetra=tetra blue fire gem x tetra=tetra blue fire gem x green fire gem=green fire gem blue fire gem x fell=green fire gem blue fire gem x scitmar=scitmar blue fire gem x sinii krai=sinii krai blue fire gem x azure glacewing=azure glacewing blue fire gem x azure glacewing=green fire gem Edit: uh...for some reason I imagined 6 months was 10 months. So I will update with an additional 3 pairings when I am back at the computer since fells and glacewings are out of the range. Three additional eggs: red fire gem x sinii krai=no egg produced red fire gem x sinii krai=sinni krai red fire gem x sinii krai=no interest Edited June 10, 2017 by Jazeki Share this post Link to post
Posted June 10, 2017 OK: gold x silver - 11 untried pairs (I can't count) - 10 no egg (they were all INTERESTED... !) 1 refusal 10 untried common pairs - 6 Tetra x blue firegem 4 tetra eggs 1 no interest 1 no egg 3 tetra x green firegem 3 tetras 1 Sinii Krai x green firegem - sinii krai egg Share this post Link to post
Posted June 10, 2017 What I want to see is an end to the HUGE preponderance of some breeds - like carmine wyverns. It is mostly new breeds that pull this - but they seem to be clinging on like dear life. So do blue banded, in my experience.. This lineage is SO stalled. I even tried switching out - made no odds. https://dragcave.net/progeny/RGYR9 https://dragcave.net/progeny/YvR0z Share this post Link to post
Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) What I want to see is an end to the HUGE preponderance of some breeds - like carmine wyverns. It is mostly new breeds that pull this - but they seem to be clinging on like dear life. So do blue banded, in my experience.. This lineage is SO stalled. I even tried switching out - made no odds. https://dragcave.net/progeny/RGYR9 https://dragcave.net/progeny/YvR0z Fuzz, please join me and our fellow brethren in campaigning here https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=166130 I'll toss together all the numbers for our breeding tests at some point. Would be nice if we can get up to 100 rare x rare and 100 common x common total attempts ^^ Edited June 10, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy Share this post Link to post
Posted June 10, 2017 Fuzz, please join me and our fellow brethren in campaigning here https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=166130 I'll toss together all the numbers for our breeding tests at some point. Would be nice if we can get up to 100 rare x rare and 100 common x common total attempts ^^ I HAVE done. I'm all OVER that thread : Share this post Link to post
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