Possible BSA: Fetch

[Firebirdwyvern]

If this or something else like it has been suggested already, then just ignore this topic. But well, the pink Sapphire dragons have me in a real muddle. I have a blue Sapphire egg that I got from the AP...and to get a pink I would need to abandon it...that sounds kind of...not quite right. Once you willingly abandon an egg, you no longer have it or can fetch it back (you get a message if you somehow do, provided somebody else hasn't grabbed it already) and...that seems kind of an odd thing to have into play unless you have a special way to counter it. 

So perhaps we could get a BSA that could "fetch" an egg that has been recently abandoned (but only if the user's scroll isn't locked).  But there is probably a lot of little details...maybe this could be a pygmy dragon BSA? or maybe a drake. 

[ShorahNagi]

On the one hand - this could be an amazing mechanism for those who have an egg auto-abandon on them.

 

On the other hand - once an egg is in the AP, there's no control over it and no guarantee that the egg wouldn't get picked up. Plus, there's already enough of a gripe about Pink Sapphires that players with a lot of time/BSA dragon could potentially corner the trade market, making it even harder for casuals to get these eggs.

 

Additional problems come in with multi-clutch eggs. You're allowed to pick one to keep, but would this allow you to get back another?

 

It's a nice idea in theory, but I think it might be a bit hard to implement (there would need to be a time limit on how long you have to fetch the egg, and it would need to keep track of the code) and with some eggs do more harm than good.

[Falorni]

 

...jokes aside, while in theory this would be great I agree with Shorah that in practice it unfortunately has too many caveats   No support unless a reasonable workaround for these is found

[Fuzzbucket]

Have to agree, sorry. But the hub works - I now have two pairs of PBs !

[Jazeki]

I agree that if the issues were somehow addressed, this has the potential to be awesome.

 

But, the issue with laying claim to things that have left your scroll is still there (once it's left your scroll, it's no longer yours). You also have to think about intent. Are people using this because they accidentally bred while locked or are now purposely breeding multi-clutches or specific dragons when locked to be able to fetch eggs without having to AP hunt or trade?

[Th3tae]

In addition to everything said above, this has interesting implications for thuweds...

[HeatherMarie]

Yeah, sorry, no support. There is and has always been a very clear 'once it leaves your scroll you have no say in what happens to it', and frankly that's not something I think should change. I'm fairly big on 'it's your responsibility', ie if you accidentally breed while locked or accidentally abandon an egg you wanted to keep, that's on you and you just need to be more careful and it's not something the site should interfere with. 

 

Yes this new pink Sapphire mechanic makes things more complicated when it comes to abandoning, lineage-building, etc, but please don't think that's the only thing something like this would be used for. As others have said, this would most definitely be used to attempt to get around the 'choose one' mechanic with multi-clutches. And how long would the 'grace' period be here? An action like this would have to be done *immediately* and could only work if no one else has already picked up the egg in question... Actually I think the *only* way I'd support something like this was if it was targeted specifically to pink Sapphires and no other breed. It would help with the frustration and user-dependence of the whole pink Sapphire issue but *wouldn't* be able to be misused to get around the limits and restrictions we already have in other areas.

[Murkydepths]

I could see uses for this. Like auto-ap'd eggs, or accidentally aping the wrong egg. I know normal aping does have a confirm screen but I still have seen a lot of people lose eggs to the ap they didn't mean to. I think if it did exist it should only work on the most recently ap'd egg, so even if you had multiple dragons with the BSA once it's used it can't be used again until you ap another egg. I actually don't see much of a problem with using it to keep another egg from a multi clutch. I also don't think it'd work if the egg was being shown in the ap, only if it were in the queue. 

 

Pink sapphires are actually one of the uses I wouldn't be so fond of, it'd kind of make their mechanic entirely redundant. I know people have problems with having to rely on people aping eggs, especially caveborns, but to be able to get it just by using a bsa after feels a little cheap. It would however mean you could do lineages with pink sapphires, which I think is a bigger problem with them. 

 

Not going to voice support or non support since it's not up to me.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Murkydepths

[RainDear]

My opinion. Just my opinion.

 

A way to obtain Pink Sapphires without depending on the actions of other players would be awesome. I hope it happens. I DO NOT believe this is the answer.

[UnicornMaiden]

This is an interesting idea, but I'd much rather see the pink Sapphire mechanic changed to something more user friendly.

[Arcy]

as others said this suggestion has a lot of complications, especially if it worked on any abandoned egg. it would be simpler and fairer to allow users to pick up their own abandoned eggs

[Darkrat]

Something needs to be done about eggs dropped at or below ap time (to prevent conflicts when someone grabs the egg from the ap at a similar time to when the bsa was used.) 

 

Also I think it shouldn't work on multi-clutches, or hatchlings lost due to actions like earthquake or bite. 

 

Not too sure I support the pink sapphire aspect right now because it would mean they would rarely hit the ap, but if they become common then sure. Right now though I feel like there should be limits to using it on sapphires such as very low chance of taking it (bsa should only be usable on each egg once) so that at least some hit the ap.  

[Fuzzbucket]

16 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Yeah, sorry, no support. There is and has always been a very clear 'once it leaves your scroll you have no say in what happens to it', and frankly that's not something I think should change. I'm fairly big on 'it's your responsibility', ie if you accidentally breed while locked or accidentally abandon an egg you wanted to keep, that's on you and you just need to be more careful and it's not something the site should interfere with. 

 

Exactly this.

 

16 hours ago, Murkydepths said:

I could see uses for this. Like auto-ap'd eggs, or accidentally aping the wrong egg. I know normal aping does have a confirm screen but I still have seen a lot of people lose eggs to the ap they didn't mean to. I think if it did exist it should only work on the most recently ap'd egg, so even if you had multiple dragons with the BSA once it's used it can't be used again until you ap another egg. I actually don't see much of a problem with using it to keep another egg from a multi clutch. I also don't think it'd work if the egg was being shown in the ap, only if it were in the queue. 

 

The point of the auto mechanic is to prevent you having more eggs than you intended. If you can't keep tabs, that is down to you, sorry. The same goes for accidents. And there is every problem with managing to keep an extra egg from a multi clutch. That is and always has been absolutely not allowed - and so it should stay - unless you can get them back by renaming the parents and offering a reward. Multi clutches are to spread the love, not to fill your scroll.

 

 

[FarawayCreatures]

Perhaps there could be time limits? For example, Fetch can only be used on an egg that was abandoned within the previous hour. This way it might be harder to abuse things, and also secure the BSA against accidental/auto-abandons and for Pink sapphires, too. + the egg certainly won't be snatched then.

[Fuzzbucket]

If an egg was abandoned - however it happened - it was done by the player, either by accidentally clicking the wrong one, or by not checking limits (or of course from a multiclutch) - and that player no longer has any rights over it at all. We need to take responsibility for our abandonings - however they came to pass. No support at all.

[Murkydepths]

9 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

And there is every problem with managing to keep an extra egg from a multi clutch. That is and always has been absolutely not allowed - and so it should stay - unless you can get them back by renaming the parents and offering a reward. Multi clutches are to spread the love, not to fill your scroll.

 

 

 

Why? 'It's always been that way' isn't really a reason. And multi clutches from regular dragons aren't really something people get hyped about, they mostly just block the ap. What harm is it going to do if someone keeps two eggs instead of one? 

[schenanigans]

On 6/4/2021 at 10:07 AM, Th3tae said:

In addition to everything said above, this has interesting implications for thuweds...

 

No? No it doesn't?

 

I'm pretty iffy on this suggestion, it sounds quite complicated to balance. I'd say it would need a time limit and agree with previous statements that it probably shouldn't work on things like multiclutches or EQ'd runaways. Honestly maybe only being able to use it on an auto'd egg even. If you deliberately abandon an egg, you made that decision. I'd much rather not circumvent the sapphire's artist's wants with a BSA mechanic and would prefer a solution to those specifically than a "BSA bandaid."

 

I also just like Arcy's simple suggestion that being able to catch your own abandoned eggs would be nice. But that also comes with pros and cons.

Edited June 5, 2021 by schenanigans

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Murkydepths said:

Why? 'It's always been that way' isn't really a reason. And multi clutches from regular dragons aren't really something people get hyped about, they mostly just block the ap. What harm is it going to do if someone keeps two eggs instead of one? 

Multiclutches only happen from holidays and celestials. I wouldn't have any particular quarrel with celestials, not that I can imagine why anyone would get excited about that, - but TJ said quite recently that here was no way he was changing the holiday multi-clutch system. And it is the way that a lot of people - especially new players - get nice holiday lines.

 

If you don't like "that's the way it's been", how about "if it ain't broke don't fix it." The multi clutch system works well as it is, and there's no NEED for anyone to try and grab extras from their own multi clutch. This suggestion is really about pink sapphires, not about greed over multis or trying to get mistakes back..

[HeatherMarie]

43 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

If you don't like "that's the way it's been", how about "if it ain't broke don't fix it." The multi clutch system works well as it is, and there's no NEED for anyone to try and grab extras from their own multi clutch. This suggestion is really about pink sapphires, not about greed over multis or trying to get mistakes back..

 

Yeah.... I feel like the topic has strayed from the OP's original purpose, and in fact that's exactly why I don't see this as a very feasible idea. The original suggestion here was made because of pink Sapphires, which *have* to be abandoned in order to exist. If the suggestion is focused on that and only that, it seems fairly simple. But when it starts involving multi-clutches and auto-abandons and accidental abandons of different types, it gets too complicated and muddled. 

 

I would tentatively support a way to re-claim an abandoned Sapphire because of the pink mechanic. I would *not* support a re-claim suggestion that includes things like multi-clutches (which has been talked to death over the years and TJ has said outright it's more likely to simply reduce or get rid of the multi-clutch mechanic), or deliberate abandons of any breed other than Sapphires (you *do* have to confirm an abandon, after all...).

[Murkydepths]

An entire mechanic to get past the intended sapphire mechanic, one single type of egg, just seems like a lot of work when other changes would work just as well. I do think this bsa has merit for accidentally abandoned or auto'd eggs though, I see it happen enough that I'm sure people would use it.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, Murkydepths said:

An entire mechanic to get past the intended sapphire mechanic, one single type of egg, just seems like a lot of work when other changes would work just as well. I do think this bsa has merit for accidentally abandoned or auto'd eggs though, I see it happen enough that I'm sure people would use it.

 

This is exactly why I would not support it. We need to take responsibility for our own actions. (And I actually autoed an egg I very much wanted just the other day. But - my fault, my loss. That's the game.)

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Fuzzbucket

[Murkydepths]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

This is exactly why I would not support it. We need to take responsibility for our own actions. (And I actually autoed an egg I very much wanted just the other day. But - my fault, my loss. That's the game.)

 

 

 

I don't understand this attitude. It's just a game, and in my requirements I specified it should only take eggs from the queue so it's not like you're snatching it from someone who clicked on it first. It wouldn't hurt anyone, and it benefits people, why not?

[Fuzzbucket]

Because it's a lazy way to get round the fact that you made a mistake. Sure it's only a game, but - why, then ?

[HeatherMarie]

Have to agree with Fuzz. Auto-abandons are fairly easy to prevent if you take literally 2 seconds to check your limits before breeding. 'Accidental' abandons *require* you to confirm the action, so if you deliberately go through with the action only to realize you were wrong... That's on you. I've auto'd a few good eggs in the past but it's my responsibility to check and keep track. It's not the game's responsibility to give you loopholes and safety-nets if you make mistakes. Once the egg is off your scroll, it's not yours. You have no claim to it. Even if it hasn't hit the front of the AP yet.

 

(And, I do feel that is one of the biggest things here: It's no longer yours. Fixing mistakes you make on your *own* dragons that are on your own scroll, that's a different thing, but leaving an egg to die and then being able to undo that just because you decide you want it back or didn't mean to do it? No.)

 

The only way I can see supporting *that* is if it was extremely extremely limited, maybe like Zyus where after you use the BSA that's it that dragon can never do it again. Or maybe one 'fetch' scroll-wide every 6 months. Some severe limit that would make it an extreme exception, instead of a common thing done because we aren't paying attention to what we are doing and why should we when we can just undo it?

[Stormcaller]

Such a thing could be abused too. For example, if we were able to do this, we might eventually see people using the AP  to store eggs they have bred but don't have room for on their scrolls.  After the eggs have gained some time, but before they show up in the AP,  they could then be retrieved to finish hatching on their scrolls.  It's an interesting thought but not a very good idea for the game.