Get Rid of Name Exclusivity

[Murkydepths]

I like the star aspect, as someone who enjoys exclusive names, I'd be happy with that compromise. 

[Shadowdrake]

A compromise for finding dragons is having the /n/ link reworked in tandem with the naming system, which is probably a given if exclusivity gets removed. Someone suggested awhile ago that the new /n/ page should have your dragon (if you have one) at the top, and below it list the rest of the dragons other people have, possibly with scroll names if they choose to display their username on dragons. This would be accessible for both current usages of the /n/ link (searching up yours or others' dragons) and function with or without stars, first-named-priority, or what have you.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Shadowdrake

[Fuzzbucket]

I really don't want to see any /n/ dragon but mine...

[KageSora]

12 hours ago, Tawanda001 said:

So, it's more about convenience than about actual exclusiveness? If a system was implemented that was just as easy to use then it would be okay to do away with exclusive names?

No.  That is one aspect.  Fixing the issue with view/n/[name] only handles the accessibility issue--it's not convenience, by the way, it's "If this was removed and nothing were done that gave me identical functionality I would not be able to play the game without being force to use third-party options to host dozens of links to the specific dragons I'm working on and I would be forced to manually update dozens of links constantly"

 

A second aspect is I like the challenge of coming up with names nobody else has used yet.  Yeah, I've been disappointed before and resorted to things like the double space trick and all.  It happens, disappointment that somebody got something before you is part of the game--in multiple different ways.  There are quite a few things where if you didn't get what you want you will never get it, or you will need extreme luck to get it.  Exclusive elements are just sort of part of the game, and always have been.  Might as well change the entire game over if you don't want any exclusive elements.

 

A third aspect is I like the exclusivity itself.  Yeah, people can use tricks to make it "look" like it's the same name, but I like the exclusivity aspect because I think it's Neat.  If I hated it I wouldn't have bothered playing a game that included it.

 

  

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I really don't want to see any /n/ dragon but mine...

 

Yes, this.  If I'm going to /n/ it's because I want to see one, specific Dragon.  I don't want to go to a page that has a ton of other dragons.  Especially if it becomes a popular name and it takes ages to load--there's no guarantee that your dragon will be the first loaded even if it's at the top of the page.

 

Also, unrelated to any one specific person's comment but something that I think is important:

 

Remember--no specific set of changes would be guaranteed to happen.  If name exclusivity were removed, there is no guarantee that any alternative to view/n/[name] would be added, that an indicator of the first dragon would be added, that a UI update for a scroll-wide search would be added.  It's entirely possible that name exclusivity could simply be yanked, breaking the /view/n/[name] links, and nothing added or changed to compensate.  You have to accept that you are, inherently, asking players who like this aspect to simply stop enjoying the game as they currently enjoy it because you feel that you deserve to change the game to suite your tastes more than they deserve to keep playing the game as they currently can.

Edited August 21, 2022 by KageSora

[Shadowdrake]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I really don't want to see any /n/ dragon but mine...

Not even if they were under a "See other dragons" dropdown?

[purplehaze]

1 hour ago, KageSora said:

Remember--no specific set of changes would be guaranteed to happen.  If name exclusivity were removed, there is no guarantee that any alternative to view/n/[name] would be added, that an indicator of the first dragon would be added, that a UI update for a scroll-wide search would be added.  It's entirely possible that name exclusivity could simply be yanked, breaking the /view/n/[name] links, and nothing added or changed to compensate.  You have to accept that you are, inherently, asking players who like this aspect to simply stop enjoying the game as they currently enjoy it because you feel that you deserve to change the game to suite your tastes more than they deserve to keep playing the game as they currently can.

I think this is a really important point. We can propose changes that would make it more palatable to lose name exclusivity, but that doesn't mean that TJ would actually make any of those changes. We could easily lose the exclusivity without any compensation for those who feel it is really important to them.

[Fuzzbucket]

12 hours ago, KageSora said:

No.  That is one aspect.  Fixing the issue with view/n/[name] only handles the accessibility issue--it's not convenience, by the way, it's "If this was removed and nothing were done that gave me identical functionality I would not be able to play the game without being force to use third-party options to host dozens of links to the specific dragons I'm working on and I would be forced to manually update dozens of links constantly"

 

A second aspect is I like the challenge of coming up with names nobody else has used yet.  Yeah, I've been disappointed before and resorted to things like the double space trick and all.  It happens, disappointment that somebody got something before you is part of the game--in multiple different ways.  There are quite a few things where if you didn't get what you want you will never get it, or you will need extreme luck to get it.  Exclusive elements are just sort of part of the game, and always have been.  Might as well change the entire game over if you don't want any exclusive elements.

 

A third aspect is I like the exclusivity itself.  Yeah, people can use tricks to make it "look" like it's the same name, but I like the exclusivity aspect because I think it's Neat.  If I hated it I wouldn't have bothered playing a game that included it.

 

  

 

Yes, this.  If I'm going to /n/ it's because I want to see one, specific Dragon.  I don't want to go to a page that has a ton of other dragons.  Especially if it becomes a popular name and it takes ages to load--there's no guarantee that your dragon will be the first loaded even if it's at the top of the page.

 

Also, unrelated to any one specific person's comment but something that I think is important:

 

Remember--no specific set of changes would be guaranteed to happen.  If name exclusivity were removed, there is no guarantee that any alternative to view/n/[name] would be added, that an indicator of the first dragon would be added, that a UI update for a scroll-wide search would be added.  It's entirely possible that name exclusivity could simply be yanked, breaking the /view/n/[name] links, and nothing added or changed to compensate.  You have to accept that you are, inherently, asking players who like this aspect to simply stop enjoying the game as they currently enjoy it because you feel that you deserve to change the game to suite your tastes more than they deserve to keep playing the game as they currently can.

 

I 100% agree with this, though I am feeling for those who want it all to end. 

 

11 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

Not even if they were under a "See other dragons" dropdown?

 

IF it had to happen. that is the option I would prefer. But I'd still not like it; I just try to be nice to nice people like you who disagree with me !

 

10 hours ago, purplehaze said:

I think this is a really important point. We can propose changes that would make it more palatable to lose name exclusivity, but that doesn't mean that TJ would actually make any of those changes. We could easily lose the exclusivity without any compensation for those who feel it is really important to them.

 

VERY VERY VERY good point.

[Tiira]

That's very good point indeed, removing name exclusivity is not tied to any other changes that might (or might not) help its supporters to bear with the new situation.

 

This is such a difficult discussion because, in my opinion, a real compromise is not possible. There is no solution that would be satisfying to all. I truly do understand why the exclusivity makes so many players frustrated, but as someone who'd like it to stay, I of course also understand why others enjoy it, instead (although myself I like it for different reasons, not for the challenge of coming up with unique names, nor the practicality of the /n/ shortcut, which I do use frequently, too). Some won't bother even trying to name their dragons because it's got too difficult, or just because the names they'd like to pick are not available, anyway - others would see no point in naming anything if exclusivity wasn't a thing anymore.

[TheLlama]

Could we perhaps only require unique names within a user's scroll and have view/n/ only work to find a user's own dragons? This keeps finding a unique name enjoyable and additionally helps against egg stalking

[Fuzzbucket]

11 hours ago, Tiira said:

That's very good point indeed, removing name exclusivity is not tied to any other changes that might (or might not) help its supporters to bear with the new situation.

 

This is such a difficult discussion because, in my opinion, a real compromise is not possible. There is no solution that would be satisfying to all. I truly do understand why the exclusivity makes so many players frustrated, but as someone who'd like it to stay, I of course also understand why others enjoy it, instead (although myself I like it for different reasons, not for the challenge of coming up with unique names, nor the practicality of the /n/ shortcut, which I do use frequently, too). Some won't bother even trying to name their dragons because it's got too difficult, or just because the names they'd like to pick are not available, anyway - others would see no point in naming anything if exclusivity wasn't a thing anymore.

 

All this, so very much.

[KageSora]

On 8/20/2022 at 10:07 PM, purplehaze said:

I think this is a really important point. We can propose changes that would make it more palatable to lose name exclusivity, but that doesn't mean that TJ would actually make any of those changes. We could easily lose the exclusivity without any compensation for those who feel it is really important to them.

 

That's what my biggest worry is.  I don't have an inherent issue with trying to find compromises that make it as acceptable as possible (though I don't think there is ever going to be a genuine way to appease everybody, this is very much a "one or the other" type suggestion)--I've even said that there's a few that I would be willing to accept if it was that or nothing.  But my concern is that there is simply no way to guarantee TJ will be willing to add whatever suggestions are come up with that are the most palatable, or even any of them.  Therefore, even as suggestions on compromises are made, I have to keep in mind the "worst case" scenario of "I completely lose access to features that make the game worth playing for me", and I suspect others who have dug in their heels may also harbor such concerns.

 

7 hours ago, TheLlama said:

Could we perhaps only require unique names within a user's scroll and have view/n/ only work to find a user's own dragons? This keeps finding a unique name enjoyable and additionally helps against egg stalking

 

This was one such suggestion, but that gets shot down by people who want to do away with exclusivity because they want to make lyrical lineages which necessitate a repeating name showing up over and over sometimes.  That would mean that one of the groups pushing for an end to exclusivity gets still gets the short end of the stick despite getting what they argued for, and I can't see them being happy to see that.

 

I think one of the biggest issues here is that we don't just have two simple groups of "those who want to keep exclusivity" and "those who want to get rid of exclusivity".  Those are simply the two very broad camps users are in.  Within those camps are multiple other, smaller groups that care about their position for different reasons and while some might be mollified by certain suggestions, other users in that overall camp--or even the opposing overall camp!--will not be, or will be worse off.  So there's really not any kind of clear path to going "okay, this compromise is as close as we can get to meeting in the middle, even if it isn't really", because that compromise might end up leaving an entire section of users out in the cold.

[ToadWitch]

TL:DR

 

I was just going through some of my eye catching names and being a bit sad about the name wipes, wiping people off I used to know. I may have a 2nd gen of some of those and a few who didn't have "family" names. I carry not only a bit of DC history, but I kinda "knew" who it came from  at the time for some of them.  I've let go some into the wild bc the name i had for them no longer made sense (and i never bred them). Fakers have always been an issue, but taking away the exclusivity ....takes a rather large bite out of breeding lineages...the whole point is its From XYZ/Who. 

 

That isn't to say I don't get bummed about having to come up with unique names too, but it's also a thrill to get something you thought "you had no chance."  Im glad the name wiping has ceased tbh, not bc i'd lose "all my cool names (bc i don't think i have any of them lol), but bc i'd have soooooo many to rename and id never remember half the naming scheming ive done over the last 10yrs. I feel so old now...

[Erra]

Simply solution for links: /nick/n/    (and mayby only /n/ give full list of all dragons with this name)

Linage: eg. Name [nick]

and max one "the same name" per scroll, and everything will be perfect 🥰.

[KageSora]

5 hours ago, Erra said:

Simply solution for links: /nick/n/    (and mayby only /n/ give full list of all dragons with this name)

Linage: eg. Name [nick]

and max one "the same name" per scroll, and everything will be perfect 🥰.

 

A variation of that has already been discussed and it isn't perfect because it only addresses half the issue.

 

That is, it doesn't actually address players who enjoy hunting for a name variation that is untaken and being the only one to have it.

[StarlightLion]

I'll admit I've only skimmed most of this thread, and I don't have a good understanding of the name search mechanics, but I'd hate to lose name exclusivity. Part of the reason I'm so insistent on naming all my dragons is because I have to be creative and fit within my own naming schema, and knowing that I have unique names is such an important part of why I enjoy this game so much. Some of them I can't believe were available when I typed them - and they're mine, I got those names. It's arguably even more rewarding than snagging a CB rare or something, because there's only one of that name and I hecking got it.

[Fuzzbucket]

9 hours ago, StarlightLion said:

I'll admit I've only skimmed most of this thread, and I don't have a good understanding of the name search mechanics, but I'd hate to lose name exclusivity. Part of the reason I'm so insistent on naming all my dragons is because I have to be creative and fit within my own naming schema, and knowing that I have unique names is such an important part of why I enjoy this game so much. Some of them I can't believe were available when I typed them - and they're mine, I got those names. It's arguably even more rewarding than snagging a CB rare or something, because there's only one of that name and I hecking got it.

 

How lovely to meet a kindred spirit !

[Chaos Rider]

But coming up with the same name as someone else completely independently is no indication of lack of creativity

[Keileon]

18 hours ago, Chaos Rider said:

But coming up with the same name as someone else completely independently is no indication of lack of creativity

This. I really don't understand the argument regarding creativity. It's only not creative if you get the idea from someone who used the name first-- person A and person B are just as creative as each other if they reach the same name independently. Also, what does it hurt if someone else doesn't meet your standards for creativity?

[StarlightLion]

That's not what we're talking about when we say creativity. There's not much creativity in naming your dragons after characters you like, for example - but then, broadly because of name exclusivity and then narrowly because of my own personal rules for naming my dragons, if I want to name a character after, say, Iron Man, I have to get creative with how I approach that. I'm not going to get the raw names 'Iron Man' or 'Tony Stark' - but I very well might get something like 'He of the Iron Suit' or 'Made In A Cave With A Box Of Scraps'.

These names are still very evocative of Iron Man, you all know what the reference is there, but it's not just the seven thousandth 'Iron Man' dragon, is it?

[Dogmage999]

I don’t think forcing someone to be creative is always a good thing. IfI want to name my dragon “Wizard”, I SHOULD be able to. Period . I don’t WANT to have to be creative. I want to name my dragons what I want to, not what I have to settle for (in my scroll, Whip Clawe was supposed to be named Whipclaw), or have to go unnamed. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Dogmage999

[Paarthurnax]

^ Agreed. If you want to go out of your way to find names that nobody's used, go for it! But putting that expectation on others who just wanna name their dragons 'John' with no tacky add-ons or identifiers is kinda silly. Being possessive of names of all things in general, I think, is kinda silly.

[KageSora]

Nothing is stopping y'all from going to find a game that allows duplicate names.

 

But it seems silly to feel so entitled to use whatever name you want that you feel you should be able to force players who enjoy the current mechanic to have that completely taken away from them because there IS no middle ground on this, either players who enjoy it get to keep enjoying it, or players who are mad they signed up for a game that doesn't let them do what they want get to force the game to change in a way that actively and completely strips away functionality from other players thus forcing them to play differently.

 

This isn't one of those "you can just not use this feature" type suggestions because if the uniqueness of the name is important players have NO way to prevent others from copying them once they come up with a unique name.  It also would destroy the view/n/[name] link completely unless TJ agreed to also modify that to somehow still work but there's no guarantee that would happen--we could lose name exclusivity AND the entire ability to go directly to a dragon via name which means anybody with memory issues who can't keep the CASE SENSITIVE codes in their head is just screwed.

 

Furthermore the ENTIRE GAME is built around some degree of exclusive first come first serve mechanics.  You might as well allow multiple players to grab the same egg with the same code so nobody has hurt feelings that they didn't get what they wanted because somebody else clicked it first.  😕

[StarlightLion]

I agree with the above. If you don't like the creative aspect of naming your dragons, there are a million other dragon collection games that allow duplicate names. Flight Rising come first to mind. Name exclusivity in collection games is a LOT harder to find than the lack of it, so your lack of desire to get creative with your naming schema doesn't strike me as a good enough reason to take it away from those of us who like it. I own the names "The Black Paladin", "The Red Lion", and all the other colour variants relevant to that set of names (ten names in total), and they're one of my favourite name sets that I own.

I'd be devastated to find that there was a whole host of dragons under that same name link all of a sudden, and it's not the names like "John" that are going to really sting to lose exclusivity for.

Besides which, what if the person who currently owns the name "John" is really proud to own that name? Should their enjoyment of their collection be ruined for the sake of yours?

 

There really is no middle ground on the issue, imo, as others have said before me - and that's exacerbated by the fact that even within the two opposing camps of "keep exclusivity" and "do away with it", there are even more little camps that want conflicting things as well.

As it stands, exclusivity is a hard enough feature to find in this genre of game, and it's also the system already in use. I'm not saying that systems should never change (especially in longterm projects) but this particular system works well, and has widely used and necessary mechanical utility. Ripping it out just isn't a pressing need in terms of pure mechanical needs, and the gameplay benefits only benefit a certain group while having the opposite effect for other groups of players. I personally don't understand the minutiae of the name search mechanics to have a solid opinion on that front, but I trust the word of the players who do and who say removing that would cause a whole host of problems beyond just aesthetic.

[Dogmage999]

4 hours ago, KageSora said:

Nothing is stopping y'all from going to find a game that allows duplicate names.

 

But it seems silly to feel so entitled to use whatever name you want that you feel you should be able to force players who enjoy the current mechanic to have that completely taken away from them because there IS no middle ground on this, either players who enjoy it get to keep enjoying it, or players who are mad they signed up for a game that doesn't let them do what they want get to force the game to change in a way that actively and completely strips away functionality from other players thus forcing them to play differently.

 

This isn't one of those "you can just not use this feature" type suggestions because if the uniqueness of the name is important players have NO way to prevent others from copying them once they come up with a unique name.  It also would destroy the view/n/[name] link completely unless TJ agreed to also modify that to somehow still work but there's no guarantee that would happen--we could lose name exclusivity AND the entire ability to go directly to a dragon via name which means anybody with memory issues who can't keep the CASE SENSITIVE codes in their head is just screwed.

 

Furthermore the ENTIRE GAME is built around some degree of exclusive first come first serve mechanics.  You might as well allow multiple players to grab the same egg with the same code so nobody has hurt feelings that they didn't get what they wanted because somebody else clicked it first.  😕

I shouldn’t have to find another game simply because of something like names. There ISN’T another game exactly like Dragon Cave.
And here is why I barely use the forums- people here are too toxic and controlling about why their dragons are so special and deserve unique names. 

Being possessive over names is so dumb. Give me five good reasons to convince me exclusive names are good.

[Rosedamai]

5 minutes ago, Dogmage999 said:

I shouldn’t have to find another game simply because of something like names. There ISN’T another game exactly like Dragon Cave.
And here is why I barely use the forums- people here are too toxic and controlling about why their dragons are so special and deserve unique names. 

Being possessive over names is so dumb. Give me five good reasons to convince me exclusive names are good.

Honestly I have no stakes in this, I do have a naming scheme but tbh it's honestly no big deal to me personally whether names become exclusive or not. But I do have a problem with this argument in that the other side can just as easily say "I shouldn’t have to find another game simply because of something like names. There ISN’T another game exactly like Dragon Cave. And here is why I barely use the forums- people here are too toxic and entitled about why their dragons are so special and must be named after someone else's dragon.  Being entitled over names is so dumb. Give me five good reasons to convince me exclusive names should be banished."

 

I agree with KageSora and many others in that this very much is a topic that will elicit an all or nothing response; unlike, say, "Indicate cool down period for BSA" for example, in which there are people who do not want the notification vs people who want it but in a banner vs people who want it in a notification form, etc etc, this is something that's going to elicit extreme povs. There is no middle ground. Can we debate this without using arguments that basically can be used by the other party in the same manner? Thanks.