Coronavirus Discussion

[Astreya]

Updated timeline for my hometown (211 000 population) as I think we could use some good news for a change

 

- 13 March: 8 confirmed cases, 60 persons quarantined

- 3 mobile teams are sent to people at home to test them on doctor's orders

- 14 March: 10 confirmed cases, 139 persons quarantined

- A drive through was set up where 100 person per day can be tested on doctor's orders, the mobile teams additionally test people who aren't mobile

- 15 March - all cultural facilities (theatres, museums, libraries, swimming pools etc) were closed by the city

- 16 March - all schools and kindergartens closed, all people coming from holidays were ordered to self-quarantine for 14 days, further contact reducing measure were set into motion.

- The second largest shopping centre (Bero-Zentrum, 100 shops) mostly closed down (only food markets and pharmacies stayed open)

- 17 March: 13 confirmed cases, 204 persons quarantined

- The largest shopping centre (CentrO, 250 shops) was forced to close as they didn't heed the recommendations by the town.

- 18 March: 18 confirmed cases, 236 persons quarantined

- 19 March: 26 confirmed cases, 193 persons quarantined, 77 people could leave quarantine

- 20 March: 35 confirmed cases, 247 persons quarantined, 108 people could leave quarantine

- Armin Laschet (Minister president of NRW) recommends that people stay at home and have fewer contacts

- 21 March: 36 confirmed cases, 295 persons quarantined, 108 people could leave quarantine

- 22 March: The German government government recommends even stricter contact limitations

- 23 March: 37 confirmed  cases, 363 persons quarantined, 133 people could leave quarantine

- 24 March: 38 confirmed  cases, 398 persons quarantined, 179 people could leave quarantine

- 25 March: 44 confirmed  cases, 222 persons quarantined, 181 people could leave quarantine

- 26 March: 48 confirmed  cases, 194 persons quarantined, 225 people could leave quarantine

- 27 March: 61 confirmed  cases, 132 persons quarantined, 300 people could leave quarantine

- 28 March: 63 confirmed  cases, 131 persons quarantined, 317 people could leave quarantine

- 29 March: 66 confirmed  cases, 133 persons quarantined, 318 people could leave quarantine

- 30 March: 59 confirmed  cases, 130 persons quarantined, 339 people could leave quarantine - 9 persons recovered

- 31 March: 52 confirmed  cases, 118 persons quarantined - 17 persons recovered

- 1 April: 52 confirmed cases still active, 112 persons currently quarantined, 437 people could leave quarantine (cumulative) - 26 persons recovered, no one died (so far)

 

Source: https://www.oberhausen.de/de/index/rathaus/verwaltung/umwelt-gesundheit-und-mobilitat/gesundheit

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Astreya

[Classycal]

Sometimes the easiest solution is the best solution, but no solution is going to be perfect for everyone.  I think most people would not choose COVID-19 over financial stress.  I can say that in the case of severe abuse they might choose COVID-19.  

Edited March 31, 2020 by Classycal

[StormBirdRising]

New York City is getting hit hard. 500 NYC police officers have tested positive. The death toll has risen to 914 civilians with 253 in the last 24 hours.

Macy's Clothing store, based in NYC will lay off almost 130,000 of their workers. Retailers Kohls and The Gap announced they will be laying off almost all of their employees.

 

Total US cases 141,000 with 2,405 deaths (from the CDC), which is updated daily.

 

[Auriene]

3 hours ago, Classycal said:

I think most people would not choose COVID-19 over financial stress.

 

I am a bit on the fence with that... Where I live, many people are willing to risk their health because they are desperate to keep their jobs - even those who are in a high-risk group due to their age or health in general. They have low-paid jobs, they cannot afford savings, but they often have children, elderly parents or disabled members of the family who are dependent on them - and they usually have also some loans to pay off. They were already living in a permanent 'financial stress' even without that whole coronavirus crisis. You don't think much about the risk of getting sick when you struggle to afford monthly medicines for your child, or for your elder parent with dementia.

 

I seriously hope that if the situation won't get better anytime soon, the governments of various countries will consider introducing some kind of an universal basic income. There were thousands of suicides linked with the economy crisis between 2008 and 2010 - and the incoming crisis is predicted to be even worse. There is a possibility that the world will lose more people due to a surge of suicides than because of the coronavirus infection.

[olympe]

8 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

For my sources, really? I provide CDC and WHO source links. Please clarify: you're calling those crap and unreliable sources? 
"Sexual violence with touch" isn't skewed because "someone poked my butt". It's much more often unwanted penetration (from fingers, for example, or into the mouth). However, groping is assault. Be it but, groin/genitals, or breasts. It is direct violation of someone's body and boundaries.  Don't you dare downplay that. Most especially when you have no idea who might have PTSD/trauma from past events.

Well, the WHO was the one that I didn't mean to include the "mostly crap" group. (If you notice, it's the one source I didn't comment on in the spoiler.)

All your CDC source told me was that pretty much everything can be considered sexual harrassment. At least according to the video they linked. Which is crap. Maybe they could have given some examples of what, exactly, they consider sexual harrassment instead of saying that touch and non-touch can be part of it...

And the hotline page you linked had very skewed numbers, and I proved this by giving 3 examples from that very page which are contradictory. Which certainly makes the source unreliable - aka crap.

 

8 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

There are cyber attacks, revenge porn, and things of the like. They are harassment and sexually violating on a psychological scale. 

And those happen especially when people stay at home? Cyber attacks can be dealt with using better privacy settings and blocking the original offenders. Maybe by changing your email, too. And revenge porn? Is that really something that happens more because people stay at home?

 

8 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

It's much more often unwanted penetration (from fingers, for example, or into the mouth).

Which is what truly baffles me. The mouth is the one place where you have natural weapons - teeth. Why not use them to defend yourself? Bite off that finger (or whatever digit) and it won't penetrate you ever again. And, while the offender calls for 9-1-1, either flush it down the loo to prevent re-attachment or do something else nasty to it - like add lots of salt, or vinegar or roll it in crap to help it develop either an infection or necrosis. Yes, I'm brutal if necessary. As long as you don't try to hurt me, I'm a pacifist, though. Just a *militant* pacifist. #2In order to preserve peace, prepare for war." That kind of philosophy stuck with me. (Kudos to anyone who can say where I got it from.)

 

8 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

Sexual violence/abuse is one of the most under-reported crimes because the world is littered with misogyny in the current day and has a horrible, hideous, track record of treating women as second class citizens/inferior creatures that are beneath men. Whenever it is reported, victims are blamed, ridiculed, harassed and threatened, labeled as liars, and so many more awful things. Police go so far as to force victims to drop the charges. 

Unfortunately, that is true. But not all cases of sexual violence or abuse happen in your own home. Way too many, yes. But not all. Another sad truth is that many victims of domestic violence - sexual or otherwise - refuse to get help. If staying at home for a while is the push they need to actually go and get help, then that *might* actually be a good thing in the long run.

 

9 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

As for people returning to work just so they can get infected? No. Let people go to work so they can pay to keep a roof over their head and food on their table. Not everyone qualifies for unemployment. Not everyone can get access to food or housing assistance. Make companies follow better, more supportive, [paid] sick leave policies, better healthcare. Make them practice better heath and sanitation standards. Make them protect their workers. 

Well, I guess that's where our countries differ greatly. In Germany, everyone can apply for unemployment money - at the least, Hartz IV. Nobody's favorite, but it will ensure you've got a roof over your head and food on your table and some clothes in your closet. We also have (unlimited) paid sick leave with a doctor's note, although, after lasting for 4 weeks, we get a reduced amount of money. (60%? 80%? Don't really know.) We have pretty much obligatory health insurance, so (almost) perfect health care. (Only exception, as far as I can tell: People who chose the private health insurance when they're young and have to pay waaaay less for it, but can't pay for it any more in their late 50s when they need to pay significantly more for their special benefits. I can't say I'm sorry for them, though. Because that kind of mindset - let's pay very little now, and only a little later, but get the best benefit from both systems - is quite parasitic IMHO.) We have quite a lot of controls for health and sanitation standards, although I still think they're not enough. So, yes, for us, stay@home should work much better than for the poor folk in the US. Which reminds me - why hasn't super-President Trump not done anything to address these issues? After all, he is the self-coined "best President of all time"...

 

9 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

I guarantee you, when someone is suffering trauma on a daily basis, death looks pretty good to make it all stop. Why else would the suicide attempts/rate be so high in any given year? I guarantee, someone might take COVID over being trapped in a house with their homicidal abuser.

 

The world panicked and chose the fastest, easiest solution by ordering everyone to stay home, without ever once thinking about the people who are suffering by staying locked up at home. The world could have thought for a hot minute and figured out a solution that keeps vulnerable people safe from abusers, mental illness, and so much more while also working to contain the COVID spread. 

I've had not one, not two but three phases in my life where I was idealizing suicide, so you don't need to tell me about it. Still, I don't think this is *causes* by the current situation. After all, suicide stats were pretty high before Covid-19, weren't they? Also, I don't think that stay@home applies in emergency cases. If you live with a homicidal abuser, you can still run to the police, no? Even if some authority picks you up, you won't be sent home if you tell them why, will they? Same goes for most mental illness, I dare say. They aren't caused by having to self-isolate. I doubt they're going to be exacerbated by staying home, at least quite a lot. Yes, anxiety can spike because of the whole pandemic, but that would happen whether there are countermeasures being enacted or not. One of our most famous cases of (most likely) suicide is the minister of finance from one of our states (Hessen). I don't think that a "don't_stay@home" would have helped him in any way, shape or form.

 

6 hours ago, AngelsSin said:

And how can jobs protect their people when we are struggling to even provide proper protective gear for our healthcare workers? Should we take the PPE that they need to do their jobs? There is no easy answer to all our problems.

Magic?

 

6 hours ago, AngelsSin said:

But if the choice is between suffering financially and death I chose suffering although in a perfect world I would chose happiness for everyone. Nothing is ever perfect though and I wouldn't hold my breath for a perfect solution that ship definitely sailed and sank. 

I totally agree with you. *sends kudos*

[Ruby Eyes]

2 hours ago, olympe said:

We also have (unlimited) paid sick leave with a doctor's note, although, after lasting for 4 weeks, we get a reduced amount of money. (60%? 80%? Don't really know.)

6 weeks, and afterwards, the employer is no longer obligated to pay anything while that sickness lasts (unless there's a "Collective agreement" (Tarifvertrag) with differing payment options). Afterwards, it's down to your insurance. Also, that only works for employed, not self-employed people.

You need to have been working at least 4 weeks for them *before* onset of that sickness though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_leave#Germany

Edited March 31, 2020 by Ruby Eyes

[StormBirdRising]

The American CoronaVirus Task Force had a televised briefing today. President Trump asked all Americans to continue the COVID-19 protocols for the next 30 days. President Trump stated that following these protocols was a matter of life or death for the American people, and that the next two weeks will be very painful for America, with more deaths.

 

He likened first line responders to soldiers charging into battle, not knowing if they would live or die but still going forward so that others may live.

 

He praised and thanked grocery workers, isp providers, police officers, doctors, nurses, first responders for their incredible bravery in keeping the nation going, and he encouraged prayers for all of them and for people fighting for their lives.

[Classycal]

2 hours ago, StormBirdRising said:

He likened first line responders to soldiers charging into battle, not knowing if they would live or die but still going forward so that others may live.

 

I agree.  They are definitely in a battle knowing at any time they could get COVID-19.  

 

2 hours ago, StormBirdRising said:

He praised and thanked grocery workers, isp providers, police officers, doctors, nurses, first responders for their incredible bravery in keeping the nation going, and he encouraged prayers for all of them and for people fighting for their lives.

 

And well said, too.   

[olympe]

9 hours ago, StormBirdRising said:

He praised and thanked grocery workers, isp providers, police officers, doctors, nurses, first responders for their incredible bravery in keeping the nation going, and he encouraged prayers for all of them and for people fighting for their lives.

And there are many more people who should be thanked. Those who take care of our waste and waste water. Those who drive their truck so our grocery workers have something to work with. Those working at gas stations or cleaning staff - be it in a hospital, a nursery home, a grocery store or a doctor's office, for example. People who work in delivery - be it for the local pizza joint or big ole Amazon (for example). Those who work to create the badly needed drugs, PPE, ventilators and so much more. Those who work in and around a hospital - cooks, servers, helpers, those washing and/or changing everything textile coming from there, those who take care of the hospital's waste and finances. And so on. It's not just the most visible workers, but also the many invisible ones that deserve thanks, praise and even prayers (if you're into that, which I'm not).

 

Many of them - pretty much everyone who has to get into contact with a lot of people - is like a soldier charging into battle. And many of them are fighting for something vital.

 

ETA: Did you also know that, apparently, Seoul's population is 38 million now?  Trump said so, so it must be true. Right?

Edited April 1, 2020 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, olympe said:

ETA: Did you also know that, apparently, Seoul's population is 38 million now?  Trump said so, so it must be true. Right?

 

 

[Classycal]

That's a mighty big city.  🤣

[Ruby Eyes]

He might have mixed it up with Tokyo (though that number includes the urban area around Tokyo as well). From his perspective, that's at least the same continent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities#Largest_cities

Edited April 1, 2020 by Ruby Eyes

[ValidEmotions]

To be honest, I'm going to take Trump's "gratitude" towards doctors, nurses, grocery workers and all other low-wage earners (who are trapped, by the way, by capitalism to continue working right now instead of staying home to protect their families and themselves) with a grain of salt. Why? Because he first spent a lot more breath on doubting and insulting them, hospital staff and Democratic governors in particular, and questioning them of "sketchy ventilator numbers". 

 

Trump has repeatedly made outrageous claims and promises about this entire pandemic. First, he spent weeks downplaying it. Next, he makes all of these grand assurances that his own staff are having to correct and say "sorry, that's not what's going to happen." And instead of acknowledging his own faults in his lackluster response to it all, he focuses blame on state and local governments, on big companies not cranking out PPE (including ventilators because, yes, they are classified as equipment), and then he and the rest of the GOP are more concerned about bailing out companies who turn around and screw over their workers. 

 

Recently, Trump has been making demands that state/local governors "be nicer" and "appreciative" of him and his [grossly lacking] response in exchange for more necessary equipment and funds to contain outbreaks. He wants these "praises" for his reelection campaign ads which paint his actions as "heroic" and, maybe unironically, uses the theme: "Hope". 

 

He attacks governors and news reporters, lies and makes boastful claims on record, and blames everyone else--all while, he does little to support the people. Everything is centered around his ego in this pandemic. He takes care of big corporations more than he takes care of ordinary workers. After that, he "cares" for the people who bend down and kiss his shoes. Everyone else, he leaves to perish. He doesn't care that he's supposed to be the president of everyone in the USA, critics and followers alike. If you ridicule him in any regard, try to hold him accountable for his actions, you're no citizen to him.

 

Sources:
When he and his administration made claims to pass out some 27 million test kits by the end of March
US Labs Await Testing Kits (Mar 5th)

27 million promised, but only 1 million in reality (Mar 31st)

Girior claims "10 million are in the market" (Mar 21st)

"Anyone who wants a test can get one" but, actually, not really. (Mar 7th)

"There will be scores of big box retailers overing parking lot covid 19 testing" (Mar 27th)

 

When discussing ventilators

Trump Admin reconsiders $1 billion price tag on requested ventilators (Mar 26th)

Trump doubted the need for 40,000 ventilators, then turns around and demands them, blaming General Motors for not having them. (Mar 27th)

"Sometimes they have 2 ventilators and now all of a sudden they want 30,000 of them." (Mar 26th)

"I feel the numbers are just bigger than they're really going to be." (Mar 27th)

Trump thinks that the Fed Gov is "backup" for state/local governments. (Mar 16th)

"Don't be a cutie pie" to a reporter pressing him for answers to questions that Trump is avoiding. (Mar 27th)

 

When he demands praise for his response to COVID-19

"I want them to be appreciative." (March 27th)

“We've had a big problem with the young, a woman governor from, you know who I'm talking about, from Michigan.” (Mar 27th) [He doesn't even bother to remember her name despite her being a "big critic" of his.]

 

Extra
"Be nice. Don't be threatening" says the president, who's been a horrible bully to countless individuals/groups of people and has a track record of being aggressive/threatening to those he deems inferior. (Mar 29th)

Edited April 1, 2020 by ValidEmotions
Some spelling errors

[Stormcaller]

I'm 75 years old and a resident of Suffolk County, New York, which is one of the hardest hit areas in the country.  Our governor, Andrew Cuomo, is a perfect example of leadership in a time of crisis.  These are terrifying times and we have to see Trump bumbling around and making accusations against him. It's disgusting.

 

I'm on oxygen already, from COPD, and know that I will never come off a ventilator, but many others will.  We need them in NY, and we need them fast. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Stormcaller
Governor not Mayor.

[Lagie]

42 minutes ago, Stormcaller said:

I'm 75 years old and a resident of Suffolk County, New York, which is one of the hardest hit areas in the country.  Our mayor, Andrew Cuomo, is a perfect example of leadership in a time of crisis.  These are terrifying times and we have to see Trump bumbling around and making accusations against him. It's disgusting.

 

I'm on oxygen already, from COPD, and know that I will never come off a ventilator, but many others will.  We need them in NY, and we need them fast. 

Cuomo has been awesome through this!

[trystan]

16 minutes ago, Lagie said:

Cuomo has been awesome through this!

he has!  too bad he's said he's not running for President...

[Bigbite]

15 minutes ago, Lagie said:

Cuomo has been awesome through this!

I agree. He's a much better leader than you know who.

[Bigbite]

1 hour ago, ValidEmotions said:

To be honest, I'm going to take Trump's "gratitude" towards doctors, nurses, grocery workers and all other low-wage earners (who are trapped, by the way, by capitalism to continue working right now instead of staying home to protect their families and themselves) with a grain of salt. Why? Because he first spent a lot more breath on doubting and insulting them, hospital staff and Democratic governors in particular, and questioning them of "sketchy ventilator numbers". 

 

Trump has repeatedly made outrageous claims and promises about this entire pandemic. First, he spent weeks downplaying it. Next, he makes all of these grand assurances that his own staff are having to correct and say "sorry, that's not what's going to happen." And instead of acknowledging his own faults in his lackluster response to it all, he focuses blame on state and local governments, on big companies not cranking out PPE (including ventilators because, yes, they are classified as equipment), and then he and the rest of the GOP are more concerned about bailing out companies who turn around and screw over their workers. 

 

Recently, Trump has been making demands that state/local governors "be nicer" and "appreciative" of him and his [grossly lacking] response in exchange for more necessary equipment and funds to contain outbreaks. He wants these "praises" for his reelection campaign ads which paint his actions as "heroic" and, maybe unironically, uses the theme: "Hope". 

 

He attacks governors and news reporters, lies and makes boastful claims on record, and blames everyone else--all while, he does little to support the people. Everything is centered around his ego in this pandemic. He takes care of big corporations more than he takes care of ordinary workers. After that, he "cares" for the people who bend down and kiss his shoes. Everyone else, he leaves to perish. He doesn't care that he's supposed to be the president of everyone in the USA, critics and followers alike. If you ridicule him in any regard, try to hold him accountable for his actions, you're no citizen to him.

 

Sources:
When he and his administration made claims to pass out some 27 million test kits by the end of March
US Labs Await Testing Kits (Mar 5th)

27 million promised, but only 1 million in reality (Mar 31st)

Girior claims "10 million are in the market" (Mar 21st)

"Anyone who wants a test can get one" but, actually, not really. (Mar 7th)

"There will be scores of big box retailers overing parking lot covid 19 testing" (Mar 27th)

 

When discussing ventilators

Trump Admin reconsiders $1 billion price tag on requested ventilators (Mar 26th)

Trump doubted the need for 40,000 ventilators, then turns around and demands them, blaming General Motors for not having them. (Mar 27th)

"Sometimes they have 2 ventilators and now all of a sudden they want 30,000 of them." (Mar 26th)

"I feel the numbers are just bigger than they're really going to be." (Mar 27th)

Trump thinks that the Fed Gov is "backup" for state/local governments. (Mar 16th)

"Don't be a cutie pie" to a reporter pressing him for answers to questions that Trump is avoiding. (Mar 27th)

 

When he demands praise for his response to COVID-19

"I want them to be appreciative." (March 27th)

“We've had a big problem with the young, a woman governor from, you know who I'm talking about, from Michigan.” (Mar 27th) [He doesn't even bother to remember her name despite her being a "big critic" of his.]

 

Extra
"Be nice. Don't be threatening" says the president, who's been a horrible bully to countless individuals/groups of people and has a track record of being aggressive/threatening to those he deems inferior. (Mar 29th)

 

[Bigbite]

Yes.

[purpledragonclaw]

ValidEmotions said it better than I ever could. I don't watch Trump's press conferences, there's too much misinformation in them for me to believe them. And since journalists often don't press him, or others from his administration, when they say things, I don't find them to be a reliable source of information. I just wait for updates from my governor directly, or check the CDC's website.

[olympe]

3 hours ago, Ruby Eyes said:

He might have mixed it up with Tokyo (though that number includes the urban area around Tokyo as well). From his perspective, that's at least the same continent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities#Largest_cities

I saw a different theory. That he looked up Seoul on wikipedia (in English language), and that he read population and then went to the line above: 38m. (It's elevation in meters...) Sounds legit.

(Screenshot from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul, red arrow added by me.)

 

2 hours ago, Stormcaller said:

I'm 75 years old and a resident of Suffolk County, New York, which is one of the hardest hit areas in the country.  Our mayor, Andrew Cuomo, is a perfect example of leadership in a time of crisis.  These are terrifying times and we have to see Trump bumbling around and making accusations against him. It's disgusting.

 

I'm on oxygen already, from COPD, and know that I will never come off a ventilator, but many others will.  We need them in NY, and we need them fast. 

I hope you're staying healthy. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

@ValidEmotions I totally agree with you. I do remember the whole thing about the pandemic being a hoax planned by the Democrats, to trying to talk away the pandemic ("foreign virus") to playing down the danger ("just a slight flu") to promising that, come Easter, everything will be back to normal.

Now he is in trouble, and needs to keep the population as happy with him as possible, after all, he wants to get re-elected. So, how to do this with as little effort as possible? Praise, declare those who risk themselves the most as potential martyrs and compare them with soldiers. Offering some thanks and prayers. All of that is very cheap. At least that's what it feels like. I'm surprised he didn't add elected government officials to his list of people to praise, thank and pray for.

 

To be quite honest, I'm not happy with the directive our own de facto state leade (Angela Merkel) gave. She wants to reduce anti-Covid-measures as soon as our new infections only cause our total cases to double every 10 days. However, we're at (roughly) 76 k infected people right now. Twice that is 150 - which would have to happen no sooner than in 10 days in order to return some more freedoms to us all. But that would also mean that, by the1st of May, we'd reach 600 k infected. I don't think that's what "flatten the curve" is supposed to mean. We need to reach a situation where the number of new cases is no higher or even lower than the number of newly recovered people. Quite a few hospitals are in distress due to the pandemic, and adding more and more patients just doesn't cut it.

[Astreya]

@olympe

Actually I have the impression that NRW minister president Armin Laschet is one of the people pressing more for starting to relax things as early as possible, while it appeared to me that Angela Merkel tried to put a brake on the relaxing of the measures.

 

In Oberhausen things appear to be stable by now, by the way. As of today we have still 52 active confirmed cases like yesterday and 26 recovered persons (up from 17 yesterday).

[Raikielia]

3 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

not cranking out PPE (including ventilators because, yes, they are classified as equipment),

 

Ventilators are not PPE. PPE is personal protective equipment, i.e. gloves, masks, gowns, etc. Yes, vents are 'equipment', but they are not PPE.

[ValidEmotions]

@Raikielia Then we learned two different definitions. Taking several accounting classes, I learned PPE as Property, Plant, and Equipment. 

[Raikielia]

12 minutes ago, ValidEmotions said:

@Raikielia Then we learned two different definitions. Taking several accounting classes, I learned PPE as Property, Plant, and Equipment. 

 

Of course they are different definitions, they are two different fields of study. PPE in a medical context is personal protective equipment(gowns, gloves, masks, N95 respirators), which is used to protect hospital workers from contracting the illnesses they work with.