Guaranteed prizes via scaled-up raffle-entry-like system

[DragonLady86]

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Raise X dragons with xxx elemental affinity. (Does secondary elemental affinity count? Maybe half?)

It counts for the raffle, why wouldn't it count fully for another system?

[osmarks]

2 hours ago, Qualeo said:

OP does that mean you have a month to complete a challenge? I might be confused but I think having a time limit is what will make it undesirable. Not with such high numbers required. 

No. A new set of challenges would be generated every month, and you could optionally switch from your current one.

 

EDIT: also, sorry for possibly explaining it badly, but there would be one challenge per month per prize type, so it wouldn't be random.

Edited June 9, 2019 by osmarks

[HeatherMarie]

6 hours ago, olympe said:

 

Regarding your last two issues, I think the idea needs to be changed slightly. Because random is a [female dog].

How about this: You have two different sets of challenges - body types for Western Prizes, elemental affinity for Eastern Prizes.

Once you've completed 2 challenges and received 2 bronze Prizes, you can choose to accept a silver challenge (higher numbers). After you have completed your 3rd bronze challenge, you can, once again, choose to accept a silver challenge (higher numbers). Once you've completed 2 silver challenges, you get the option to choose a gold challenge (even higher numbers). Challenge tiers are always in regards to each body type. Anway, this way it's ensured that the 3:2:1 ratio of bronze:silver:gold is mostly kept, although (for a while), bronze and then silver will be more common than their ratios imply. I'm sure TJ could easily offer early silver/gold challenges if bronzes get too common, though.

 

 

I must say I really don't like this idea. One of the big issues with the raffle is it's randomness, people can't influence *what* they end up getting (or when), I've seen people posting about 'winning' a type/color they don't even like. If a whole new mechanic is to be put in place to allow people to deliberately work towards a CB Prize, they should be allowed to work towards the one they *want*. I don't really think it would skew ratios too much since it would logically take a *lot* longer to get a gold variant then a bronze. All I know is that I would be pretty pissed if we *finally* got a way to *work* towards this Super Special Prize, but it was *required* that we work towards and own other types before being allowed to work towards the one we actually want!

[olympe]

It might seem like it will work out if the requirements are scaled, but I honestly doubt it. What if everyone and their 2nd cousin once removed starting working on getting golds only? Or silvers? 

[osmarks]

10 minutes ago, olympe said:

What if everyone and their 2nd cousin once removed starting working on getting golds only? Or silvers? 

If you mean CB ones, we already have  this. If you mean bred ones, the ratios change I guess.

[Cinspawn]

4 minutes ago, olympe said:

It might seem like it will work out if the requirements are scaled, but I honestly doubt it. What if everyone and their 2nd cousin once removed starting working on getting golds only? Or silvers? 

Wasn't there a similar argument for golds in market? That once we all collectively hit the shard requirement, a huge loss in gold egg value would happen?

 

Did that happen? (Genuine question.)

[Fuzzbucket]

I know the price went up - quite a bit - around the time I bought mine and several others did too...

[Qualeo]

Golds are meant to be the rarest, with Silvers following and finally bronze. Allowing people to pick can skew the ratios potentially (I'm not sure if they breed along the idea that gold produce less frequently than silvers, which produce less frequently than Bronze) or not. I'm sure someone knows. 

Also thanks for clarifying! I wouldn't have liked the idea if it had a time limit, but being able to switch after a cooldown is a nice option I think. Maybe challenges with bronzes are more likely to appear than silver or gold? I don't think it's unfair that golds would be less likely to appear than silvers, and silvers bronze. That's how rarities work you have to accept that. Things don't just get common because you want them to. Some things are meant to be rarer, to establish a difference in value. It's just something that you're going to have to live with unfortunately as disappointing as it'd be not to work towards the one you want (And yes I understand it would suck, but you can't change rarities just because you want to)

[Cinspawn]

38 minutes ago, Qualeo said:

Golds are meant to be the rarest, with Silvers following and finally bronze. Allowing people to pick can skew the ratios potentially (I'm not sure if they breed along the idea that gold produce less frequently than silvers, which produce less frequently than Bronze) or not. I'm sure someone knows. 

Also thanks for clarifying! I wouldn't have liked the idea if it had a time limit, but being able to switch after a cooldown is a nice option I think. Maybe challenges with bronzes are more likely to appear than silver or gold? I don't think it's unfair that golds would be less likely to appear than silvers, and silvers bronze. That's how rarities work you have to accept that. Things don't just get common because you want them to. Some things are meant to be rarer, to establish a difference in value. It's just something that you're going to have to live with unfortunately as disappointing as it'd be not to work towards the one you want (And yes I understand it would suck, but you can't change rarities just because you want to)

I think I'd rather see the dragons you have to raise-cap being higher for gold prizes vs. bronze & silver prizes. The idea of this suggestion is that you can work for the prizes, no matter how long it takes. Having to wait a few months just to get started on the year long grind seems... I don't know, unnecessarily frustrating, while it doesn't add much in terms of rarity for the dragon, I think.

[Qualeo]

The problem with just. Letting you choose is that you do need to preserve the rarities. It's a lot healthier for the ratios, I think if people get them based on the rarities they are intended to be (but again, i'm not sure if Gold/Silver/Bronze has separate chances to breed true or not I'm really not sure). I think if they don't has separate breeding chances then it would be a more feasible idea. But as they're saying above, when a mass amount of people bought CB golds the prices jumped. So if a bunch of people all worked and got gold at the same time, that wouldn't be too healthy for the ratios I think. With this idea, while there still is a bit of RNG, you are at least guaranteed a prize dragon - which is a lot better than the currently only RNG based system in place. 

[olympe]

2 hours ago, osmarks said:

If you mean CB ones, we already have  this. If you mean bred ones, the ratios change I guess.

Actually, for CB ones, we don't have this, as they're given out with fixed ratios of 1 gold : 2 silvers : 3 bronzes.

[HeatherMarie]

3 hours ago, Qualeo said:

The problem with just. Letting you choose is that you do need to preserve the rarities. It's a lot healthier for the ratios, I think if people get them based on the rarities they are intended to be (but again, i'm not sure if Gold/Silver/Bronze has separate chances to breed true or not I'm really not sure). I think if they don't has separate breeding chances then it would be a more feasible idea. But as they're saying above, when a mass amount of people bought CB golds the prices jumped. So if a bunch of people all worked and got gold at the same time, that wouldn't be too healthy for the ratios I think. With this idea, while there still is a bit of RNG, you are at least guaranteed a prize dragon - which is a lot better than the currently only RNG based system in place. 

 

(bolding for emphasis) Yes, that happened... But Golds are still in the Market. Golds were put in the Market despite vocal concern over that very thing. I'm not sure I understand why Gold's price going up has anything to do with this suggestion, honestly. The ratios balance themselves; People buying more Golds in the Market caused certain things to happen, like the price to go up (and, I'm assuming, breeding results to go down for awhile). That doesn't mean they shouldn't be available. If people earn and get more CB gold Prizes then then ratios want, that just means that *breeding* gold Prizes will take a hit for awhile. The ratios don't account for CB vs bred. 

 

That said, I do understand the idea of maybe wanting to keep a general 'ratio' where gold Prizes are less plentiful then bronzes, etc... But in that case I'd *much* rather the distribution from this suggestion be random, like the raffle, in a way that holds true to those 'ratios'. Much much rather it be random then actually be *required* to spend time getting types you don't even want before it's even *possible* to get the one you want.

[Natayah]

It was silly of me to think a long, very long, historical view of my journey on this topic would have any merit to this conversation so please disregard my opinion. I'm now part of the "owns a CB Prize Dragon" class so obviously have nothing to add to this conversation, despite having spent multiple years frustrated on the other side. I'll let those who are not winners pose their ideas so they can discuss them and remove myself from the conversation.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Natayah

[Qualeo]

Based on the suggestion, I'm presuming you're not required to do the challenge. Once the "Challenge shuffle" cooldown is met, I'm assuming it would generate a random set (maybe x amount at a time) that could potentially be the one you're looking for. That's kinda what I'm assuming works with the challenge thing, which gives you the option to not do what it gives you and wait until one you want to do appears. Correct me if I'm wrong though OP, that's the vibe I was kinda getting from it. 

 

It's not so much the golds, but the change in ratios due to the sudden hike in golds in circulation. It's just an example to explain and support the idea being presented. What's the point in getting a shimmer that's almost never going to produce a gold shimmer? Prizekin are very nice indeed, but I know a lot of people are going to actually want prizes from them. And again, I think this all is dependent on if the three colors have their own individual ratios or if they all simply fall under "shimmerscale" or "tinsel". If they all fall under the same breed in terms of their ratios and rarity and such, then I think I'd be more down for people being able to choose what they wish to pursue with this type of system. 

 

Otherwise, with this system then the golds are going to have to take a lot longer than bronzes and silvers IF we want to allow people to choose. As long as it is a lot more work to get golds than silvers than bronzes, then I think I'd support a system that allowed you to choose which to pursue. I would only support the ability to chose so long as the Gold are harder than Silver, and the Silver harder than bronze to achieve. They are intended to be rarer based on how they are raffled - and I don't think this should be changed. 

[Cinspawn]

@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah@Natayah do you support the suggestion or not? You talk a lot about what TJ might think, but perhaps it's best if @TJ09 can give his own opinion instead of people thinking for him. Lately he has been locking threads that have no future for the foreseeable future, so he does give some feedback sometimes.

 

Also apologies for posting your name like twenty times, that's a known bug and I can't erase it 😅

[Natayah]

@Cinspawn I do not personally support the idea, but I don't think the idea doesn't have merit because things are always changing. It is not based on what I think TJ thinks, although it is partially based on what I perceive the intention to be, and I get that intention and agree with that intention, because otherwise I think it would be in the Traders Market.. I like the idea of more effort to get an entry to the raffle vs heavy effort = auto win, in summary. But I went into a lot of detail as to why I thought that because I get both sides of it. I'm sorry if the long essay didn't make sense or people didn't care to read it. I've been on the other side. I get it. It is very frustrating. I support anyone having any idea because things are always changing. Who am I to say what is or isn't a good idea. I just wanted to add the caveat that .... sometimes things take time so don't give up hope if you really like this idea.

[DarkEternity]

I support this but I'm a teensy bit troubled by the infinite doubling of prize goals. 

[Fuzzbucket]

7 hours ago, Natayah said:

It was silly of me to think a long, very long, historical view of my journey on this topic would have any merit to this conversation so please disregard my opinion. I'm now part of the "owns a CB Prize Dragon" class so obviously have nothing to add to this conversation, despite having spent multiple years frustrated on the other side. I'll let those who are not winners pose their ideas so they can discuss them and remove myself from the conversation.

 

I am not a winner, and I think I will never be. But I do NOT support this suggestion. And your opinion DOES count.

[DragonLady86]

8 hours ago, Qualeo said:

 

 

It's not so much the golds, but the change in ratios due to the sudden hike in golds in circulation. It's just an example to explain and support the idea being presented. What's the point in getting a shimmer that's almost never going to produce a gold shimmer? Prizekin are very nice indeed, but I know a lot of people are going to actually want prizes from them. And again, I think this all is dependent on if the three colors have their own individual ratios or if they all simply fall under "shimmerscale" or "tinsel". If they all fall under the same breed in terms of their ratios and rarity and such, then I think I'd be more down for people being able to choose what they wish to pursue with this type of system. 

 

Otherwise, with this system then the golds are going to have to take a lot longer than bronzes and silvers IF we want to allow people to choose. As long as it is a lot more work to get golds than silvers than bronzes, then I think I'd support a system that allowed you to choose which to pursue. I would only support the ability to chose so long as the Gold are harder than Silver, and the Silver harder than bronze to achieve. They are intended to be rarer based on how they are raffled - and I don't think this should be changed. 

I think the difference in rarity is based solely on how many are given out as CB. They all breed the same.  Heck, for years, they bred like commons, getting silver or gold just took longer because there was a lot less of them. Also progeny lists like this wouldn't be possible if they didn't: https://dragcave.net/progeny/npA3L

Don't really see why it should be more work for one or the other.  It isn't now.  Gold recipients do the exact same thing as Bronze winners.

[olympe]

2 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

I think the difference in rarity is based solely on how many are given out as CB. They all breed the same.  Heck, for years, they bred like commons, getting silver or gold just took longer because there was a lot less of them. Also progeny lists like this wouldn't be possible if they didn't: https://dragcave.net/progeny/npA3L

Don't really see why it should be more work for one or the other.  It isn't now.  Gold recipients do the exact same thing as Bronze winners.

Actually, once two Prizes of the same kind but different colors succesfully breed, they'll always have eggs of the same color as the first when bred together.

[Fiona]

If it's guaranteed, it's not a prize, it's a wage. Opposed to anything that guarantees a prize.

 

(this is my opinion of the matter, not stating it as fact, but how I view it)

Edited June 10, 2019 by Fiona
don't like being told I'm wrong when stating as valid an opinion as anyone else. I'm ticked now.

[olympe]

29 minutes ago, Fiona said:

If it's guaranteed, it's not a prize, it's a wage. Opposed to anything that guarantees a prize.

Actually, that's wrong.

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prize (noun): a thing given as a reward to the winner of a competition or in recognition of an outstanding achievement. (found on google)

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 prize (noun): something valuable, such as an amount of money, that is given to someone who succeeds in a competition or game or that is given to someone as a reward for doing very good work. (Cambridge dictionary)

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prize (noun):

1. something offered or striven for in competition or contests of chance
2. something exceptionally desirable
3. archaic: a contest for a reward (Merriam-Webster)

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by olympe

[VixenDra]

It's still much worse than simply adding Tinsels and shimmers to the Shard shop.
Shards are at least not so Iif at all) discriminatory against certain playstyles
(yes, I often don't make a full weekly cap in mine, but well, the shop currently has nothing to offer to me, so why should I bother much? IF I could buy Shimmers and Tinsels there, I WOULD try my best to fill my weekly cap, and with what Shards are earned for, even my minimalistic goal has some things I can do without flopping my minimalistic playstyle upsidedown, which I wouldn't like to see gone in the extra Tin/Shim obtain way. The raffle requirements are sadly influencing my playstyle, but at least, don't interfere with it in the end since I can work on both at once and dont' have to sacrifice one for the other. This suggestion, like the other one, DOES require playstyle sacrifice, only unless you're a total hoarder of simply anything...)
And do you mean the time to complete the task/s is limited?

 

 

Speaking of rarity and breeding, since I work with PB only:

Gold shimmers: https://dragcave.net/progeny/om6z1
Silver Shimmers: https://dragcave.net/progeny/bqPbX
Bronze Shimmers: https://dragcave.net/progeny/nd8Sj

Gold Tinsels (this pair is the yungest of the quoted): https://dragcave.net/progeny/lrhWT
Silver Tinsels: https://dragcave.net/progeny/NuWZ4
Bronze Tinsels: https://dragcave.net/progeny/mR74q
 

Trios, Golds and Silvers for comparison:
https://dragcave.net/progeny/CyQKg https://dragcave.net/progeny/bOSVu https://dragcave.net/progeny/TeZXV
https://dragcave.net/progeny/OPSSc
https://dragcave.net/progeny/3r0r1

(I bred my Golds more frequently than my Tin&Shm pairs)

Edited June 10, 2019 by VixenDra

[olympe]

It's not like you're forced to work towards any kind of prize. You can still wait until you win the raffle. Just like you don't have to have an army of Red Dragons - but it's beneficial to have them. If you don't want to hoard dragons, well, guess what? You can release them. And it won't affect your scroll at all.

 

If you only want to collect green dragons, be my guest. You can easily collect amphipteres (Lacula), Drakes (Greater Spotted, Vremya and maybe even Tatterdrakes), Easterns (Alemeralds), Lindwyrms (green Two-Headed Lindwyrms), Pygmies (Magelight, Misfit), Sea Serpents (green Baikala), Two-Headeds (Opals, Baikala), Westerns (lots and lots of them), Wingless (Vine/Dark Green, Mint, Terrae, Water Walker), Wyrms (Gaia Xenowyrm), Wyverns (BBW, Magelight Pygmy, Fever, green Spinels and probably both green Nebula and green Copper). 

 

If you only want to collect green dragons, you can still collect dragons of the following elemental affinities: Light (Almerald, green Nebula), Neutral (Anagallis, Neotropical...), Water (Undine, Water Walker), Air (green Gemshard, green Siyat), Earth (Pebble/Green, Colossus, Terrae...), Life (Vine, Tangar, Gaia, Canopy), Dark (Vine, Olive), Death (Fever), Time (Vremya, Summer and Spring Seasonal)

Sorry, but with Fire, Magi, Ice and Lightning... you're screwed. Just wait for next month's challenge.

 

If you cannot be bothered to do what this game is all about - namely raising dragons - then, well, you can still get bred versions of the prize dragons. Or hope for the raffle.

Of course, not every challenge will suit everyone - but hopefully, challenges will be diverse enough so that, eventually, pretty much everyone will find something that suits them.

 

DC is a game about acquiring dragon eggs and raise dragons. Collecting them is actually quite optional. (There's that release action that I mentioned previously.) If you only want to play in a minimalistic game, that's fine. But please don't tell us other players may not be rewarded for actually playing this game because you insist in limiting your play. It's like saying "I don't own a car for [insert reason of choice here]. So, as a result, it's wrong for the government to give people who own cars a benefit because I won't get it."

[Marrionetta]

I would advise waiting until we get a sense for how the new scaled up prize pools distribute before demanding further changes.

 

The current prizes are distributed via a mechanism of chance. It was always intended to be this way. There was never any intention of these being distributed as guaranteed achievement awards.