Let's talk about freeze limits

[SkyMet]

Basically the only hatchlings I freeze are messy common eggs I take from the AP, since I know most people don't want to pick them up.  I keep them on my scroll to help with the ratios.  I do it as a way to help other users.  Grab a few eggs when I notice I have some slots open, incubate and put them in hatcheries for a few hours, then freeze them as soon as they hatch.  Then I get back to work on my usual breeding projects.

 

If I had to wait until the hatchlings reach 4 days before they actually freeze, then I wouldn't bother doing this anymore, since it would be too much time taking away space needed for my actual projects.

 

I would prefer raising the freeze limits, or shortening the time until the freezes come back.   

[Aalbiel]

On 7/8/2018 at 6:23 PM, HeatherMarie said:

 

For knowing how long until you get a freeze-slot back, https://dragcave.net/help/actions#freeze shows a list of what you've frozen in the past 2 weeks, and the dates. Look at the oldest date and calculate two weeks from that date, that's when you'll get a freeze back. It's not as easy as the BSA timers, but it's something.

 

It's a really roundabout way (Actions Log works as well, but is equally indirect) but that's all we have. I do think a specific timer/page would be nice, but I'd rather focus on raising limits/shortening cooldown, as this seems more important?

[Aviatus]

Ooof, this had a lot of replies while I wasn't looking. So just to clarify, the rationale behind the idea of a freezing process is that it's actually less constrictive than any kind of reasonable numerical limit. It means 0 downtime no matter how you get your eggs, where a number limit aimed at making freezing only as productive as CB hunting would result in some downtime for those who hunt on the AP. Personally speaking, I would rather have the ability to freely hunt whenever I'm not egglocked, rather than have to calculate and make sure my hunting and limit cooldown is synched (If I did my math right, you'd want to hunt for eggs just after you freeze your gendered hatchlings if you're just going for hatchlings meaning 1.5 days where you can hunt but shouldn't). 

 

I realize this is a more difficult and confusing change to try to implement, which is why I gave an example of new help text to see if I could word it well enough to be clear. In the end, if it's determined that the option of a "freezing process" is too confusing or unviable I'd still like the numerical limit I suggested. To me that option isn't so much off the table but rather a backup.

[HeatherMarie]

See, personally I think that this idea of a 'freezing process' is actually much *more* constrictive the a simple numerical limit. And much more complicated, no matter what sort of text you put explaining it. Instead of simply checking to make sure you have freezes left, or calculating when you'll get a freeze back (which isn't as easy right now as it could be, admittedly), you basically have to forfeit slots for days at a time, *constantly*, while this whole 'process' is happening... Which will include having to constantly calculate or keep track of exactly when that freeze-pending hatchling will hit 4 days and *actually* freeze and stop taking up a slot. I would much much *much* rather have a simple numerical limit on how many I can freeze in a certain amount of time, rather then constantly having multiple slots taken up by 'pending' freezes for multiple days. That feels much more inconvenient and frustrating then a simple limit. 

 

At the highest trophy, we currently have a limit of 24 'growing things'. If you want to max out your eggslots (which many people do), that means a limit of 16 hatchlings at a time. For those of us who prefer to freeze stage-1 hatchlings, we often freeze as soon as they hatch to make sure they don't accidentally gender before we freeze them. That means having at *least* one of those 16 hatchling-slots taken up for *three days* every single time I want to freeze. That seems like a rather excessive 'punishment' for freezing, honestly. If we had unlimited 'growing things' slots it wouldn't be an issue, but right now it's just waaaayyy too much of a downside.

[Fuzzbucket]

I agree with Heather. All I'd like to see is a shorter cooldown. No extra complexities, thanks.

[Sazandora]

Ditto. Just shorten the cooldown and once we've used up all the freeze slots, add a BSA-style timer to show when we'll be able to freeze stuff again. These are just pixels we're collecting, no need to arbitarily punish those who want to collect hatchling sprites in addition to adult sprites.

[olympe]

15 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

See, personally I think that this idea of a 'freezing process' is actually much *more* constrictive the a simple numerical limit.

Apparently, people don't like the current "simple numerical limit", either. 😛 With a platinum trophy, right now you can freeze 18 hatchlings every couple of weeks. With the freezing process, the same player could freeze 24 hatchlings every 3 days while making sure they can't have their cake (=frozens) and eat it (=raise additional adults) at the same time. It's not a punishment if you can do more freezing, but a trade-off between freezing and raising. Instead, what I see here, is a lot of asking for extra rewards for freezing (= ability to get more).

 

Quote

Which will include having to constantly calculate or keep track of exactly when that freeze-pending hatchling will hit 4 days and *actually* freeze and stop taking up a slot.

No more complicated than waiting for something to hatch/grow up so you have a slot free on your scroll. Or waiting for something to hatch in order to freeze it as an S1, which you're already doing.

This kind of limit is pretty much ingrained in every single active player.

 

Anyway, some kind limit is needed. Obviously. There shouldn't be too short of a cooldown, or freezing might be abused around the times holiday walls turn incu-hatchable, so less than 1 week might be too little. For the very same reason, freeze limits shouldn't be too high. Anyway, the return of the next freeze slot should be easy to find (cooldown timer), if the freezing slot mechanic doesn't change.

Edited July 10, 2018 by olympe

[Aalbiel]

4 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I agree with Heather. All I'd like to see is a shorter cooldown. No extra complexities, thanks.

 

+1

 

 Personally I keep a "freeze calendar" where every time I freeze something, I write down the date and time it will come back. (An easy thing adding 14 days).

It's requires being rigorous about doing it every time but it's really quite straightforward. I'm not saying everyone should do this, just saying there are ways to synch freeze slots under the current system that seem simpler than this alternative. 

[Sazandora]

Yeah, do whatever with the freeze limits, but do NOT for the love of God force people to keep a hatchling they're not intending to raise to adulthood for 3 days until it's "allowed" to be frozen. There are absolutely no good reasons to why that should be a thing. As I said before, it just makes things needlessly complicated and benefits no one.

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, olympe said:

Apparently, people don't like the current "simple numerical limit", either. 😛 With a platinum trophy, right now you can freeze 18 hatchlings every couple of weeks. With the freezing process, the same player could freeze 24 hatchlings every 3 days while making sure they can't have their cake (=frozens) and eat it (=raise additional adults) at the same time. It's not a punishment if you can do more freezing, but a trade-off between freezing and raising. Instead, what I see here, is a lot of asking for extra rewards for freezing (= ability to get more).

 

 

I don't see anyone asking for 'rewards', I see people asking for *changes*, which is not the same thing at all. Lowering the freeze limit while also lowering the cooldown is not a 'reward'. If, for example, the cooldown was lowered to 3 days, but the freezing limit was also lowered to 3 freezes in those 3 days, that wouldn't allow anyone to get *more* (if my calculations are correct, it would be that same 18), but it would make things easier and not have to stagger freezings by two full weeks. Also, it's true that many people don't like the current limits, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't want a 'simple numerical limit' at *all*, just that they want the limit/cooldown tweaked.

 

1 hour ago, Sazandora said:

Yeah, do whatever with the freeze limits, but do NOT for the love of God force people to keep a hatchling they're not intending to raise to adulthood for 3 days until it's "allowed" to be frozen. There are absolutely no good reasons to why that should be a thing. As I said before, it just makes things needlessly complicated and benefits no one.

 

This, exactly. If there are reasonable limits in place, freezing isn't hurting anyone at all, isn't disadvantaging any players who don't like freezing, etc, so I really don't see a need to *punish* people so severely every single time they want to freeze. And yes, taking up multiples slots for *three days* just because I want to freeze is definitely feeling like a punishment. Even outright *killing* a growing dragon only counts for 24 hours! So the message this sends is that freezing a dragon is more inappropriate and needs more consequence then actually killing one. 

[Aalbiel]

I also don't get this 'rewards' thing?

 

I think we can all agree (correct me if I'm wrong) that what we want is to adjust freeze limits so that we can raise as many (no more, no less) frozen hatchlings as we would be able to raise fully grown adults. 

[olympe]

The current topic is about significantly raising the freezing limits (overall). (4+1*trophy level)/14 days is way higher than (10+2*trophy level)/3 days. Over 6 weeks, the difference is as follows:

Current: 30 + 6*trophy level         (Trophy level 0: 30 freezes; trophy level 1: 36 freezes; trophy level 2: 42 freezes; trophy level 3:   48 freezes; trophy level 4: 54 freezes)

Suggested: 56 + 14*trophy level. (Trophy level 0: 56 freezes; trophy level 1: 70 freezes; trophy level 2: 84 freezes; trophy level 3: 100 freezes; trophy level 4: 114 freezes)

For most players (=everyone with 200+ non-growing dragons), that's at least twice as much as it is now.

 

@Aalbiel: The "rewards" comment was in answer to this:

3 hours ago, Sazandora said:

Ditto. Just shorten the cooldown and once we've used up all the freeze slots, add a BSA-style timer to show when we'll be able to freeze stuff again. These are just pixels we're collecting, no need to arbitarily punish those who want to collect hatchling sprites in addition to adult sprites.

 

Right now, people who freeze hatchlings are "rewarded" with some extra hatchlings in addition to all the adults they can raise. As a consequence, making freezing a trade-off between getting adults or frozen hatchlings at the players discretion with no other limits imposed save for scroll limits was seen as a "punishment", for some reason.

[HeatherMarie]

To be completely honest the math is really confusing me. I, personally, am not asking for any sort of 'reward'. I'm asking for a shorter cooldown, and whatever limits need to be changed to make that happen I'm fine with. I, personally, don't care if the limit is significantly lowered, and (as an example) I could only freeze 1 or 2 hatchlings every 3 days regardless of trophy level. I just don't want to keep waiting sooooo long for the cooldown to reset. 

 

(Seriously, I don't get this 'reward' business. How exactly is having frozen hatchlings a 'reward' at all? Unless you are strictly talking about frozens counting towards your next trophy, but I hardly think that's a huge reward, especially since most people in this thread have high trophies already. You can't *do* anything with a frozen hatchling, you can't breed it or use a BSA with it or anything, so except for a general 'more overall dragons on your scroll' I don't get how freezing is a *reward*. And if you are just talking about 'more overall dragons', the exact same argument could be made for people who trade for low-time hatchlings, but are we punishing them? Nope.)

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm lost. Can we just ask for a shorter cooldown and a more precise timer ? That's ALL I would want - not that I freeze much anyway. I REALLY cannot see how freezing rewards anyone with anything.

[Sazandora]

That is all I ask. I don't see any problems with frozen hatchlings counting as "grown" dragons; remember, they cannot be used for anything at all. No breeding, no using BSAs, no nothing.

Okay, maybe someone could technically hit platinum trophy-level by just freezing things. But still -- no breeding or BSAs. All those frozen hatchies do is just sit there and look pretty. At least adult dragons can be used for lineage projects and stuff.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Sazandora

[Aalbiel]

I'm afraid I'm going to opt-out of answering this 'reward' business because I don't even understand what points are being made anymore. Frozen hatchies are being talked about as if they are "extra" but they take up the same slots as any dragon. I'm confused.

 

Regarding those maths, yes, they are correct, but you are in no way comparing that to how many adults someone could raise if they were focusing on freezing adults! 

At the moment, I have 16 freezes every 2 weeks. That's just over 1 a day. I am MAINLY interested in freezes, at the moment and for the foreseeable future. This freezing limit is severely limiting my scroll goals, because I can raise just over 1 dragon per day. (At the moment I am also raising adults, but honestly just for something to do with my slots. If I was able to freeze more, those slots would be going to freezies.) Someone who is focused on raising adults, with the same gold trophy,  would be able to raise WAY MORE than 1 adult dragon per day, considering it takes 5 days (with incubate) to raise a dragon to adulthood (with incubate) and 3-3.5 days to raise it to adulthood from AP (AP times being averaged at 5- 5 1/2 days, which is generous considering recent release AP times). That's a maximum of 7 adults raised in 3 days, minimum 7 raised in 5 days, whereas I can only raise 7 freezies in 7 days.

 

Perhaps the limit proposed was too high, as it doubles current freezing limits? (More or less.)

 

Perhaps a better limit can be calculated. Perhaps 3+1*trophy level every 3 days would be fairer. But limits still do need to be raised, this is my first priority. 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by Aalbiel

[olympe]

Okay, to make it simple: Right now, frozen hatchies are extra. You can still raise your full allot of adults even if you freeze as much as you can. This will not change with different freezing limits and/or cooldowns, because AP eggs are always available at lower timers.

 

What I proposed, in essence, is a trade-off. Practically unlimited freezes (only limited by your scroll's capacity) in exchange for fewer adults raised. No more guessing, "When's my next freezing slot coming back?". Instead, you'd only have to keep an eye on your regular scroll limits, which you already have to do when raising dragons. Nothing new there. One less limit, one less thing to keep track of. And, at the same time, you can freeze everything on your scroll if you want. You could even trade for low-time hatchlings for freezing - and get your frozens even faster - just like some people already do for raising dragons quickly.

 

With a system like that, it's not even necessary to compare your ability to freeze to your ability to raise adults, because both would be one and the same. You'd just have to decide which you want to do. If you want to collect only frozen hatchlings, you can then do so at the same rate as you could raise adults. If you want to do both, well, you'd have to decide for each dragon what you'd want to do with it.

 

Overall, this seems to be the most fair solution out there. Everyone can do as they please, no more limiting one action over the other, and the usual things to keep track of. (It usually isn't that hard to remember when a hatchling hatched, is it?)

[Aviatus]

Ok, it seems like there is a lot of confusion with the math of all this, so let me try to clear it up as best I can.

 

Let's consider a period of 42 days, a bit long I know, but as the LCM of 3 and 14, it's the best way to compare the numerical limits. With that in mind, here are the maximum "grown dragons" using each of the 3 proposed methods (Including the current standard), again, assuming an AP time of 5.5 days, and a time-to-gender of 1.5 days.

Note that it was assumed that the user starts off with an empty scroll which is why there is a slight discrepancy between Hatchlings and adults on the new limit, this is evened out in subsequent 42 day periods.

 

What you should notice from this is that the freezing process is designed to allow you to reach the same amount of "grown dragons" no matter how you play, and this doesn't punish those that hunt primarily off of the AP. The only thing I haven't calculated is a mixed playstyle (Which I will, I'll need a bit more time though). That is the rationale behind the freezing process, it doesn't punish you for freezing, it let's you pick up double the amount of hatchlings while still being fair to those who play for adults.

 

I'm considering starting a poll to see which option people like best, and I'll try to consolidate the arguments in the op, but I hope these charts make it easier to understand some of the arguments being put forth.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Make sure to include please just shorten cd or up the numbers. I don't want ANY of this stuff. KISS is the best thing EVER. We don't need all this added math, we so very much don't. IT will do nothing but confuse almost everyone.

 

At this moment I am profoundly glad that I'm really not that interested in freezing at all

[Sazandora]

28 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Make sure to include please just shorten cd or up the numbers. I don't want ANY of this stuff. KISS is the best thing EVER. We don't need all this added math, we so very much don't. IT will do nothing but confuse almost everyone.

+1.

[HeatherMarie]

4 hours ago, olympe said:

Okay, to make it simple: Right now, frozen hatchies are extra. You can still raise your full allot of adults even if you freeze as much as you can. This will not change with different freezing limits and/or cooldowns, because AP eggs are always available at lower timers.

 

What I proposed, in essence, is a trade-off. Practically unlimited freezes (only limited by your scroll's capacity) in exchange for fewer adults raised. No more guessing, "When's my next freezing slot coming back?". Instead, you'd only have to keep an eye on your regular scroll limits, which you already have to do when raising dragons. Nothing new there. One less limit, one less thing to keep track of. And, at the same time, you can freeze everything on your scroll if you want. You could even trade for low-time hatchlings for freezing - and get your frozens even faster - just like some people already do for raising dragons quickly.

 

With a system like that, it's not even necessary to compare your ability to freeze to your ability to raise adults, because both would be one and the same. You'd just have to decide which you want to do. If you want to collect only frozen hatchlings, you can then do so at the same rate as you could raise adults. If you want to do both, well, you'd have to decide for each dragon what you'd want to do with it.

 

Overall, this seems to be the most fair solution out there. Everyone can do as they please, no more limiting one action over the other, and the usual things to keep track of. (It usually isn't that hard to remember when a hatchling hatched, is it?)

 

That 'trade-off' sounds horrible, honestly. Why on earth would we want to go from insta-freeze with a limit to freezing-process with a limit? Because there *is* a limit involved here, a very severe limit, when it takes up a growing-things spot for *three days*. As you said, right now you can both raise adults and freeze a limited amount of things. With this 'freezing process' you'd basically have to choose one or the other, or try to do both but a whole lot less of both. You can't raise a good amount of adults and also have a good amount of not-yet-frozens taking up slots. I'd MUCH rather just keep it the way we have it now then have that sort of horrible 'trade-off'. (And no, I'm sorry, I don't think it's 'fair' at all to change something that for years has had no downside, and give it such a HUGE downside.)

 

Seriously, if that's the solution I'd much rather just keep it the way we have it now. I would *love* if the cooldown was shortened, though, and if that would mean the limit also being lower I'd be fine with that.

[Aviatus]

I think this is a misinterpretation of the tradeoff being proposed. The trade-off is you get an near-unlimited amount of freezes with the caveat being freezing no longer immediately removing a hatchling from you growing list. The result is you can freeze up to double the hatchlings that you'd be able to with the 3 day limit I proposed. As for "semi-frozen" hatchlings crowding out adults, if you're hunting in cave, that will never happen, as you'll never hit the GD limit. If you hunt in the AP, it would be the same as if you were only raising adults. You'd get GD locked after 3 broods, assuming the AP time is less than 5.5 days (which it usually is) you'll be unable to do anything after all 3 broods hatch, exactly like it would be if you were to let all the hatchlings mature. That's the real trade off, you're playing as if you're letting all your hatchlings mature, but if you so desire you get a frozen hatchling at the end of the 3 days instead of an adult.

 

That said I can see the concern about this method lowering the amount of grown dragons that you can raise in a given period. I'm running those numbers now, though to be honest it's a lot trickier given how many variables are involved. I've abandoned Excel for this and am working with my trusty MatLAB. It's gonna take me a bit but I'll try to have those numbers ready by tomorrow. Once I do I'll update the OP with those numbers, the arguments for both proposals, and a poll.

 

For the Poll I want to include the following options:

• Keep Current Freezing Limits
• Implement New Numerical Limit (4+(1*T Level)) every 3 days
• Implement New Numerical Limit (Other) (Please Comment)
• Implement Freezing Process with unlimited uses but hatchlings count as a GD for 3 days
• I don't care as long as I can freeze more

 

Anything I'm missing there?

[GhostMouse]

17 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I agree with Heather. All I'd like to see is a shorter cooldown. No extra complexities, thanks.

+2

There's no need to make this any more complicated. Frozen hatchlings give no in-game benefits and there is no need for freezing to be so restrictive.

Either shorter cooldown time, or higher limits + ideally, no limit once you're at the max trophy level.

[Shadowdrake]

1 hour ago, Aviatus said:

That's the real trade off, you're playing as if you're letting all your hatchlings mature, but if you so desire you get a frozen hatchling at the end of the 3 days instead of an adult.

 

That said I can see the concern about this method lowering the amount of grown dragons that you can raise in a given period. I'm running those numbers now, though to be honest it's a lot trickier given how many variables are involved.

There's no way this wouldn't lower the amount of dragons a person can raise. Right now assuming we use all growing slots, in a 2 week period a platinum player can grow 48 adult dragons or more, and we get an extra 18 freezes or 18 extra dragons. If all freezes took up the same amount of time and slots as a regular dragon, it immediately removes those possible 18 extra dragons. This is no possible benefit except to those who have only interest in frozen hatchlings and not adults.

 

Not to mention how many issues there are to having a freeze be over time. Can you trade them? Abandon them? If you could, would the freeze be taken off? If you can't, would you have to release said half-grown dragon when you're in need of a growing spot?

 

 

I wouldn't mind a secondary freeze (maybe with a different name like "chill" or "stasis" or idk) but only if the original freeze were left alone. This second chill could be still used after all regular freezes were used up, and take up a slot for "potentially infinite freezes" like suggested, with chill being removed upon transfer or abandon. So they'd be regular hatchies except they don't grow and stay frozen after the requisite 3 days.

[Aviatus]

You're right, it works perfectly for those who play for only hatchlings and only adults, those who get a mix of both will take a bit of hit, my only question is by how much.

 

Anyhow, it seems like a community consensus has been reached, I'll still put up the poll tomorrow as a formality but it seems clear how it will go.

 

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone actively opposed to raising the freezing limits altogether? Or is there just discrepancy in how it's done?