Let's talk about freeze limits

[Sazandora]

Well yes, the "no limits after platinum trophy"-thing is never going to happen for obvious reasons. Rules and limits are there for a reason.

Lower cooldown + lowered limits, this I can definitely live with. I'd be fine with a lower cooldown and limits staying as is, but if enough people have problems with that, then I don't mind if it gets axed. Same for raised limits.

 

Really, no matter what is done with the current cooldown and limits, I don't particularly care. BUT -- the one thing that makes me come back to this thread time and time again is the "freezing process"-thing. THAT is what I'm strongly opposed to. I do not approve of it as I believe it to be an unnecessary hindrance, especially during holidays where it's just a massive headache for those of us who are trying to collect frozen holiday hatchlings. They are only available once a year for a rather short amount of time, after all!

[olympe]

Unless, of course...

Assume freezing limits stay as they are - but you can go above them with a freezing process. Once you have no more freezes left, and want to freeze another hatchling, you'll have to use some kind of freezing process that either keeps your hatchling in stasis until another freezing slot becomes available again. (Hatchlings in stases would count towards your limits.) Alternately, the hatchling would be put in stasis until it reaches 4 days left, at which point it will become a regular frozen hatchling. (Once again, hatchlings in stasis would count towards your limits.)

 

I dunno, it's probably too complicated.

[Sazandora]

It does sound a little... complicated, but as long as it's an optional thing, I have no issues with it. In fact, if the process would work in the way as you proposed, I'd absolutely love it. Something to be used when all the slots have been taken - putting the hatchling in a queue of sorts. But not replacing the way freezing currently works.

[Fuzzbucket]

50 minutes ago, olympe said:

I see several things here that make it really hard to argue. First of all, there's the fact that pretty much everyone wants something different. 

From "lower cooldown, but limits reduced accordingly" to "no higher limits, but lower cool-down" to "raised limits" to "no limits on freezing at all once you hit platinum". How am I even supposed to argue with each faction?

• lower cooldown, but limits reduced accordingly: Doesn't really change anything than give you less options. You won't be able to freeze a bunch at once because of the reduced limits. On the other hand, you can easily implement this by limiting your freezing to 1-2 hatchlings a day - and you'll never have to wait long for your slots to come back. 6 Days at most if you freeze 2 every day until you hit the limit. Personally, I don't see it benefiting anyone at all, as it's mere change for the sake of change.
• no higher limits, but lower cool-down: Will not satisfy the people who don't want to wait as long for their slots to come back. Plus, effectively, this does raise your freezing limits per period of time. Even if the limits stay the same and the cool-down gets lowered to 1 week, you'll still be able to freeze twice as much.
• raised limits: Seems to be almost the answer, although "raised limits + lowered cooldown" would be more accurate. However, all players still compete for eggs. This is especially true for eggs that are available only for a short time, and it seems like this would give a certain group of players a big edge.
• no limits after platinum (because more dragons don't give you any more benefits anyway): While you're at it, you can use the same argument to abolish all limits on platinum scrolls. After all, since there's nothing left to reach, there's no need for egg limits or overall scroll limits. (See where this logic is faulty?) Not to mention that a single player could, in theory, clear out the whole AP until there's nothing incu-hatchable left (if they know how to hatch eggs really quickly). Incu-hatch, freeze, rinse, repeat ad infinitum.

The next problem I see is a severe lack of understanding for maths.

• For people who only collect CBs or self-bred eggs: No matter what happens and how often you use Incubate, you'll never be scroll-locked due to too many hatchlings. Scroll-lock can only happen to people who catch or trade for low-time eggs. Unless, of course, they use Stun or don't let their hatchlings get enough views to grow up ASAP. Thus, freezing already affects how many dragons they can raise.
• For people who go for low-time eggs: This is the one case where freezing gives an advantage in actual numbers, and where it bears to ask this one question: What's more important? Being able to freeze as many as you could theoretically raise in exchange for the adults you could get, or getting the 16 "free" hatchlings every two weeks?

 

Oh you can get locked with hatchlings if you are collecting and breeding in any co-operative lineage. I very VERY often am. And with eggs fro the AP that fit my lines - I find loads there.

 

Which is more important ? the important thing is being able to play the game as simply as possible. I don't want to be doing math (or to have some math process controlling things) to decide whether or not to freeze. And going for low time eggs - I do that; as I say, I do it for eggs from the AP that I WANT, not to freeze them. I have often filled holes in lineages that way.

 

And I'm sorry - but

Quote

Will not satisfy the people who don't want to wait as long for their slots to come back

 

I have to say - so what. There are always things in games that don't satisfy someone. It's one of those "get over it" things in life.

 

27 minutes ago, olympe said:

Unless, of course...

Assume freezing limits stay as they are - but you can go above them with a freezing process. Once you have no more freezes left, and want to freeze another hatchling, you'll have to use some kind of freezing process that either keeps your hatchling in stasis until another freezing slot becomes available again. (Hatchlings in stases would count towards your limits.) Alternately, the hatchling would be put in stasis until it reaches 4 days left, at which point it will become a regular frozen hatchling. (Once again, hatchlings in stasis would count towards your limits.)

 

I dunno, it's probably too complicated.

 

It certainly is.

 

Here's a thought then. You can CHOOSE, when you go up a trophy level, to get - say  two extra freeze slots instead of another egg slot.

[Aviatus]

48 minutes ago, olympe said:

• lower cooldown, but limits reduced accordingly: Doesn't really change anything than give you less options. You won't be able to freeze a bunch at once because of the reduced limits. On the other hand, you can easily implement this by limiting your freezing to 1-2 hatchlings a day - and you'll never have to wait long for your slots to come back. 6 Days at most if you freeze 2 every day until you hit the limit. Personally, I don't see it benefiting anyone at all, as it's mere change for the sake of change.

Seeing at this was my suggestion I feel I should respond. I'm not sure where you're getting these 1 day or 6 day periods because I don't think that's been suggested at all. As for this strategy giving you less options I strongly disagree with that. Part of the beauty of a 3 day cooldown with a limit based on your egg limit is that it's really easy to plan around for people who are hunting primarily for hatchlings, while still serving as a viable option to free up slots for those who hunt both. If a new release or holiday comes around you can freeze enough to free up all of your egg slots but not enough to hunt again before other users. I just can't see nearly double the capacity to freeze (56 to 30 at the lowest level by my own math) as change for the sake of change.

 

Quote

The next problem I see is a severe lack of understanding for maths.

• For people who only collect CBs or self-bred eggs: No matter what happens and how often you use Incubate, you'll never be scroll-locked due to too many hatchlings. Scroll-lock can only happen to people who catch or trade for low-time eggs. Unless, of course, they use Stun or don't let their hatchlings get enough views to grow up ASAP. Thus, freezing already affects how many dragons they can raise.
• For people who go for low-time eggs: This is the one case where freezing gives an advantage in actual numbers, and where it bears to ask this one question: What's more important? Being able to freeze as many as you could theoretically raise in exchange for the adults you could get, or getting the 16 "free" hatchlings every two weeks?

I do agree with you that the math in this topic seems to be largely misunderstood, and honestly I'm not sure how best to alleviate that. You're exactly right in in your analysis of the two scenarios, but you seem to miss the important note in the last sentence. For a lot of players, being able to freeze without limits isn't as important as the 16 "free" spots, a lot of players don't freeze enough to hit the limit as is, and we'd be taking away a game mechanic from them with no benefit to their playstyle.

[Fuzzbucket]

27 minutes ago, Aviatus said:

Seeing at this was my suggestion I feel I should respond. I'm not sure where you're getting these 1 day or 6 day periods because I don't think that's been suggested at all. As for this strategy giving you less options I strongly disagree with that. Part of the beauty of a 3 day cooldown with a limit based on your egg limit is that it's really easy to plan around for people who are hunting primarily for hatchlings, while still serving as a viable option to free up slots for those who hunt both. If a new release or holiday comes around you can freeze enough to free up all of your egg slots but not enough to hunt again before other users. I just can't see nearly double the capacity to freeze (56 to 30 at the lowest level by my own math) as change for the sake of change.

 

I do agree with you that the math in this topic seems to be largely misunderstood, and honestly I'm not sure how best to alleviate that. You're exactly right in in your analysis of the two scenarios, but you seem to miss the important note in the last sentence. For a lot of players, being able to freeze without limits isn't as important as the 16 "free" spots, a lot of players don't freeze enough to hit the limit as is, and we'd be taking away a game mechanic from them with no benefit to their playstyle.

 

This exactly. I almost never freeze, and when I do, I want it to be done and dusted right away. If TJ set up this time delay thing I would almost certainly never freeze again; I need my slots. This is especially true if I want to freeze the occasional holiday hatchling while still being able to hunt that glorious AP wall to the full. When trawling the holiday AP I have very very VERY many times had to dump good stuff to collect other good stuff as it is. I definitely wouldn't want to tie up a slot for three days out of that precious week. Or even for one.

[olympe]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Oh you can get locked with hatchlings if you are collecting and breeding in any co-operative lineage. I very VERY often am. And with eggs fro the AP that fit my lines - I find loads there.

 

Which is more important ? the important thing is being able to play the game as simply as possible. I don't want to be doing math (or to have some math process controlling things) to decide whether or not to freeze. And going for low time eggs - I do that; as I say, I do it for eggs from the AP that I WANT, not to freeze them. I have often filled holes in lineages that way.

 

[*snip*]

Here's a thought then. You can CHOOSE, when you go up a trophy level, to get - say  two extra freeze slots instead of another egg slot.

The fact remains that you cannot get scroll-locked if all you collect are fresh eggs. In order to get locked, you'll need eggs that  have lost some time before arriving on your scroll. 

 

The choice you offer is a very bad one. Because, seriously, who'd be willing to forego an egg slot???

1 hour ago, Aviatus said:

Seeing at this was my suggestion I feel I should respond. I'm not sure where you're getting these 1 day or 6 day periods because I don't think that's been suggested at all. As for this strategy giving you less options I strongly disagree with that. Part of the beauty of a 3 day cooldown with a limit based on your egg limit is that it's really easy to plan around for people who are hunting primarily for hatchlings, while still serving as a viable option to free up slots for those who hunt both. If a new release or holiday comes around you can freeze enough to free up all of your egg slots but not enough to hunt again before other users. I just can't see nearly double the capacity to freeze (56 to 30 at the lowest level by my own math) as change for the sake of change.

As long as the overall limits stay the same ( = no more than 18 hatchlings in two weeks), lowering the cooldown accordingly won't change anything for the better. Since the 18 doesn't really divide well by 14, let's take the silver trophy as an example.

Silver trophy users can freeze 14 hatchlings in 14 days. You could, of course, reduce the timer to 1 day and the number of hatchlings to 1, too. Within 14 days, you could still only freeze 14. But with the lower limit, you can only ever freeze one hatchling, no matter which day it is. Then, you'll have to wait for the next day. If you cannot go online on a day, you lose out on a freezing slot.

With the current limits, a silver trophy user can choose whether they'd rather freeze one hatchling every day, or whether they freeze 14 on one day and wait for two weeks for their freezing slots to return. Which means that there's more flexibility.

 

Unless, of course, you're trying to get the limits (for silver trophy users) to be 14 hatchlings in one week. Or maybe even 3 days. Which... would be a very significan rise in available freezes (over a 14 day period). Even your a freeze limit equaling your egg limit for every three days would significantly increase the freezing limits. (In 14 days, that would be 24 hatchlings for silver trophy users - with their freezing slots coming back two days later.)

 

And, of course, I did get my numbers wrong since I assumed 16 freezes for platinum trophy owners. (Sorry, I don't freeze, so I don't need to remember the actual numbers. Oops.)

[Aviatus]

My initial suggestion was (4+(T*1)) dragons to freeze every 3 days. Or in plain english, you can freeze the same amount of hatchlings as your egg limit, every 3 days. That would be (at silver level) ~28 hatchlings every two weeks as opposed to 14 (Remember the DC system doesn't fit neatly into weeks so take that value with a grain of salt). So it isn't even close to the same level. By doing it this way, you allow for more freezing but prevent people who only hunt hatchlings from hunting more than those going for adults. 

[Fuzzbucket]

48 minutes ago, olympe said:

The choice you offer is a very bad one. Because, seriously, who'd be willing to forego an egg slot???

 

 

Which is the exact feeling I and others have about freezing locking up a hatchie slot for any time at all.

 

39 minutes ago, Aviatus said:

My initial suggestion was (4+(T*1)) dragons to freeze every 3 days. Or in plain english, you can freeze the same amount of hatchlings as your egg limit, every 3 days. That would be (at silver level) ~28 hatchlings every two weeks as opposed to 14 (Remember the DC system doesn't fit neatly into weeks so take that value with a grain of salt). So it isn't even close to the same level. By doing it this way, you allow for more freezing but prevent people who only hunt hatchlings from hunting more than those going for adults. 

 

As long as freezing doesn't lock a hatchie slot for any time at all - as long as it is an instant thing as it is now - and as long as we still do have limits, to prevent people clearing the AP in moments - I don't really care. But we NEED limits, and not outrageously high limits.

 

@Aviatus Halving the cooldown would have almost exactly that effect, I think.

[Aviatus]

Roughly, yes you're right, straight out halving the timer would actually let you freeze more than what I was suggesting, so if that were implemented you won't hear me complaining. To me though, a 3-day counter is just more intuitive than a 7-day one, since Eggs hatch and hatchlings grow on 3-day timers. That is gonna be a matter of preference though so I can understand there being differences there.

[HeatherMarie]

7 hours ago, olympe said:

 

• lower cooldown, but limits reduced accordingly: Doesn't really change anything than give you less options. You won't be able to freeze a bunch at once because of the reduced limits. On the other hand, you can easily implement this by limiting your freezing to 1-2 hatchlings a day - and you'll never have to wait long for your slots to come back. 6 Days at most if you freeze 2 every day until you hit the limit. Personally, I don't see it benefiting anyone at all, as it's mere change for the sake of change.

 

Since this is something I've been talking about, I'll try to explain my thoughts on it. It's not 'change for the sake of change', it's change to make freezing easier and make the wait time less. I'm not sure how you get the idea of 'no benefits' and such, I've explained multiple times why this would be nice for the way I play. A lot in this game has to do with choices, and sometimes choices will be made that makes the user frustrated in the future, but if something could be tweaked to alleviate that it might be nice. I've said it before, I've frozen in such a way that I've had to wait 10 days for any freeze slots to come back. That's very frustrating. To me, it would be much more helpful in the long run if I was able to freeze less at a time, but more often. Maybe I'd have to choose which hatchlings I *really* want to freeze, but those slots will come back in just a few days and if I really really want to I can hang onto those other hatchlings and freeze them in a few days (and hope they don't gender). I'd much rather have, say, 5 hatchlings I want to freeze, and only be able to freeze 4 of them right now, but have those slots back in a few days, instead of freezing all of them right now and waiting 14 days to get those slots back. 

 

Maybe in terms of simple dragon numbers it doesn't change anything, but it most definitely changes the ease of playing and lessens the frustratingly-long wait time. 

[olympe]

17 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

I've said it before, I've frozen in such a way that I've had to wait 10 days for any freeze slots to come back. That's very frustrating. To me, it would be much more helpful in the long run if I was able to freeze less at a time, but more often. Maybe I'd have to choose which hatchlings I *really* want to freeze, but those slots will come back in just a few days and if I really really want to I can hang onto those other hatchlings and freeze them in a few days (and hope they don't gender). I'd much rather have, say, 5 hatchlings I want to freeze, and only be able to freeze 4 of them right now, but have those slots back in a few days, instead of freezing all of them right now and waiting 14 days to get those slots back. 

 

Maybe in terms of simple dragon numbers it doesn't change anything, but it most definitely changes the ease of playing and lessens the frustratingly-long wait time. 

Then why don't you keep your freezing to the limit you want to see imposed? Apparently, you want less flexibility (in freezin more now, less later) - which you already can do. Others, however, might like being able to freeze lots now and nothing later, only to repeat the process every two weeks. What you suggestion does is take away choices for everyone so you don't have to deal with them any more. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[Fuzzbucket]

As HM says - there are rare occasions when you do want to go past the limits as they are. That will always apply to any limit set anywhere.

 

How is she taking away all your choices ? even Aviatus, the OP here, agrees that simply halving the CD would make all the difference you seem to need AND cater for HM.

[Aalbiel]

On 7/12/2018 at 8:34 PM, Aviatus said:

Roughly, yes you're right, straight out halving the timer would actually let you freeze more than what I was suggesting, so if that were implemented you won't hear me complaining. To me though, a 3-day counter is just more intuitive than a 7-day one, since Eggs hatch and hatchlings grow on 3-day timers. That is gonna be a matter of preference though so I can understand there being differences there.

 

I think this is completely a matter of preference. To me, DC runs on a 7d time and a 3d time. Eggs and hatchlings grow in 3 days, but eggs and hatchlings actually have a timer of 7d (which is relevant for zombie and ND exps for instance). Now we also have shards resetting on a 7d basis. Both systems can be intuitive, both systems work. I'd be happy with either option if I'm honest.