Let's talk about freeze limits

[Aalbiel]

@olympe I feel like we agree on principle (equal number of dragons raised whether you freeze or raise to adulthood) but how on earth do you propose enacting your idea? "Choosing whether your dragon is frozen or adult and you get no "extra" dragons"? This seems completely impossible in the form you're suggesting and I don't see any practical details proposed.

 

@Aviatus As far as I can tell, nobody is opposed to the actual idea, but rather disagreeing on how to proceed, I think a poll is a great idea!

Edited July 11, 2018 by Aalbiel

[Fuzzbucket]

6 hours ago, Aviatus said:

I think this is a misinterpretation of the tradeoff being proposed. The trade-off is you get an near-unlimited amount of freezes with the caveat being freezing no longer immediately removing a hatchling from you growing list. The result is you can freeze up to double the hatchlings that you'd be able to with the 3 day limit I proposed. As for "semi-frozen" hatchlings crowding out adults, if you're hunting in cave, that will never happen, as you'll never hit the GD limit. If you hunt in the AP, it would be the same as if you were only raising adults. You'd get GD locked after 3 broods, assuming the AP time is less than 5.5 days (which it usually is) you'll be unable to do anything after all 3 broods hatch, exactly like it would be if you were to let all the hatchlings mature. That's the real trade off, you're playing as if you're letting all your hatchlings mature, but if you so desire you get a frozen hatchling at the end of the 3 days instead of an adult.

 

That said I can see the concern about this method lowering the amount of grown dragons that you can raise in a given period. I'm running those numbers now, though to be honest it's a lot trickier given how many variables are involved. I've abandoned Excel for this and am working with my trusty MatLAB. It's gonna take me a bit but I'll try to have those numbers ready by tomorrow. Once I do I'll update the OP with those numbers, the arguments for both proposals, and a poll.

 

For the Poll I want to include the following options:

• Keep Current Freezing Limits
• Implement New Numerical Limit (4+(1*T Level)) every 3 days
• Implement New Numerical Limit (Other) (Please Comment)
• Implement Freezing Process with unlimited uses but hatchlings count as a GD for 3 days
• I don't care as long as I can freeze more

 

Anything I'm missing there?

 

And if we don't want to do more than freeze - say - two in a year, and mostly build lineages, we'd be seriously inconvenienced every time we froze, with a slot being taken up for 3 days.

 

This seems to be to be just something to allow people who DO freeze loads to spoil play styles for those of us who don't. Can we please just not do this.

 

You haven't included the only option I would vote for (other than the status quo, which suddenly looks very appealing): Keep current limits exactly as they are but with a two week cooldown.

[Aalbiel]

53 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

You haven't included the only option I would vote for (other than the status quo, which suddenly looks very appealing): Keep current limits exactly as they are but with a two week cooldown.

 

 

Current limits do have a two week cooldown? Not sure what you're saying...

[Fjord]

Gonna be honest, if a hatchie takes up a slot for 3 days, I'd likely never freeze.

 

I say KISS and just go with the originally proposed lower cooldown and lower limits.

[Fuzzbucket]

OK then, one week (I told you I didn't freeze a lot !)  A shorter cooldown (and a more accurate timer) would be great. I see no need at ALL for any other change.

 

1 minute ago, Fjord said:

Gonna be honest, if a hatchie takes up a slot for 3 days, I'd likely never freeze.

 

I say KISS and just go with the originally proposed lower cooldown and lower limits.

 

Right on ! (well, not lower limits - I'm fine with them where they are.)

Edited July 11, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Aalbiel]

Oh, then that sounds fine, Fuzz. 

 

 

[Sazandora]

I am probably repeating myself here, but I'll keep saying it for as long as people keep proposing it: no gradual freezing process, please. Nobody seems to have any problems with freezing instantly removing a hatchling from the growing dragons list, so why change it? Don't fix it if it ain't broken.

All I'm asking for is a shorter cooldown on freezing (nothing massive, of course), and a more accurate timer on when we can freeze again. Keep the freeze limits as is if people are being bothered by the idea of them being raised. But my main issue is, NO 3-day freezing process. It'll just be super inconvenient for those of us who collect adult dragons instead of just frozen hatchlings.

[olympe]

20 hours ago, Sazandora said:

That is all I ask. I don't see any problems with frozen hatchlings counting as "grown" dragons; remember, they cannot be used for anything at all. No breeding, no using BSAs, no nothing.

Okay, maybe someone could technically hit platinum trophy-level by just freezing things. But still -- no breeding or BSAs. All those frozen hatchies do is just sit there and look pretty. At least adult dragons can be used for lineage projects and stuff.

The same is true for unbreedables. And yet, they don't drop in everyone's laps, and they do take up scroll space.

 

 

10 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

This is no possible benefit except to those who have only interest in frozen hatchlings and not adults.

Well, I see there's a big difference between "no benefit for a certain group" and "doubling the benefits of freezing for the same group".

 

10 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

Not to mention how many issues there are to having a freeze be over time. Can you trade them? Abandon them? If you could, would the freeze be taken off? If you can't, would you have to release said half-grown dragon when you're in need of a growing spot?

That could and should be discussed, of course.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

olympe - just what IS the point of having this process ? What possible good will it do as against what we have now with a shorted cooldown and/or higher limits ? I usually agree with you about stuff - but this I simply cannot grasp.

[Sazandora]

I'd like to know that too. To me it only seems like a hindrance to discourage us from freezing stuff. I'm a casual frozen hatchling collector, I only freeze hatchies to obtain all the sprites of each individual breed (because of this, I'd love for some way to "freeze" eggs too), and hatchies with fun codes that I'm not interested in keeping around until they become adults. Forcing us to wait 3 days for the thing to be actually frozen gets in the way of all this, and makes obtaining s1 hatchies a huge hassle.

[Shadowdrake]

4 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, I see there's a big difference between "no benefit for a certain group" and "doubling the benefits of freezing for the same group".

I said "there is no benefit except for this specific group, and everyone else gets disadvantaged instead". Considering DC is geared towards growing adults (breeding, lineages, bsas, larger sprites) and that a lot of people have a "collect them all" goal that includes both frozen hatchlings and adults, I cannot understand why a change should be made that hurts the majority of players and helps only a niche few.

[Fuzzbucket]

This is what I don't get. Why do I have to tie up a space for three extra days just because I want the very occasional frozen hatchie, just to make life easier for those who freeze heaps and can't bear to wait out the cooldown.

[KrazyKarp]

To be honest I'm not sure why having hatchies continue taking up a slot is such a huge deal? If you don't freeze a lot, then rarely having a to-be frozen hatchie taking up a slot for a few days doesn't seem to be that bad of a thing.

 

Really, as long as we can freeze more in less time, I'm not picky about the solution. I just fail to understand why it's so bad for a frozen hatchie to take up one slot on rare occasions for people who don't freeze a lot.

[Fuzzbucket]

It messes with my other stuff. OCCASIONALLY I freeze to keep the sprite; on the rare occasions that I do unexpectedly it will be because someone offers me something I actually want and I need the slot. I am very far from alone in this. What's wrong with just lowering the cooldown ?

 

How many people actually NEED this huge number of slots anyway ?

 

This from the first post:

 

Quote

the way I was collecting (1 adult of each gender 1 hatchling of each gender and 1 ungendered hatchling) I need to freeze about 6 hatchlings for every adult I'm going to raise from here on out

 

How ? For that, you need a total of 5 dragons of each breed. How can that ever total 6 hatchlings per adult ? Unless we assume that you had every breed from the day you started and suddenly decided to add all those frozen hatchies. Well - sorry, but tough .

[HeatherMarie]

3 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

I said "there is no benefit except for this specific group, and everyone else gets disadvantaged instead". Considering DC is geared towards growing adults (breeding, lineages, bsas, larger sprites) and that a lot of people have a "collect them all" goal that includes both frozen hatchlings and adults, I cannot understand why a change should be made that hurts the majority of players and helps only a niche few.

 

This, very much this. 

 

 

1 hour ago, KrazyKarp said:

To be honest I'm not sure why having hatchies continue taking up a slot is such a huge deal? If you don't freeze a lot, then rarely having a to-be frozen hatchie taking up a slot for a few days doesn't seem to be that bad of a thing.

 

Really, as long as we can freeze more in less time, I'm not picky about the solution. I just fail to understand why it's so bad for a frozen hatchie to take up one slot on rare occasions for people who don't freeze a lot.

 

It's 'so bad' for people who *do* freeze a lot but *also* like to raise some adults. Like me. Example: I have, in the past, frozen 6 hatchlings in one day. I also like to raise other breeds to adulthood. With this whole 'process' idea, I would be severely limited on how many adults I could raise, I would be *very* disadvantaged against 'non-freezing' users, because those 6 hatchlings would take up *six slots* for *three days*. That's huge! That's three full days of not being able to play normally because I have these not-yet-frozens taking up slots for no good reason. I freeze a lot. I often hit, or get close to, the limit. I do *not* want to have to choose between freezing *or* raising adults. 

 

Despite what some people in this thread seem to think, I don't believe anyone here is asking for 'special' treatment or 'advantages' or anything. I'm certainly not. I'm not asking to be able to have a ton more dragons through freezing, I'm not asking to be given any sort of special treatment just because I freeze a lot. What I *do* want is a bit shorter cooldown, so I don't have to wait 10+ days to freeze again. I personally don't care how that's done (as long as it's *not* this 'process' idea!), and personally I would be completely fine with the actual freeze-limits being lowered significantly if it meant a shorter cooldown.

[Aviatus]

Just for the Record Fuzz, I was talking about what I'd need from here on out, at the time I needed 100 more adults and ~600 more hatchlings. Right now I need 70 more adults and 587 hatchlings, that's why I said I need 6 hatchlings per adult, because that's what's left.

 

Right now I'm waiting to hear back from a mod, for some reason I can't seem to put a poll on myself. My desktop also decided to restart while I was sleeping and deleted all the work I did yesterday, so I don't think I'm going to be doing that math after all, but once I get that poll in place I'll post again. In addition to the options I mentioned above I'll include Fuzzbuckets of (10+(2*T)) every 7 days. Anything else I missed?

[KrazyKarp]

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

It's 'so bad' for people who *do* freeze a lot but *also* like to raise some adults. Like me. Example: I have, in the past, frozen 6 hatchlings in one day. I also like to raise other breeds to adulthood. With this whole 'process' idea, I would be severely limited on how many adults I could raise, I would be *very* disadvantaged against 'non-freezing' users, because those 6 hatchlings would take up *six slots* for *three days*. That's huge! That's three full days of not being able to play normally because I have these not-yet-frozens taking up slots for no good reason. I freeze a lot. I often hit, or get close to, the limit. I do *not* want to have to choose between freezing *or* raising adults. 

 

Despite what some people in this thread seem to think, I don't believe anyone here is asking for 'special' treatment or 'advantages' or anything. I'm certainly not. I'm not asking to be able to have a ton more dragons through freezing, I'm not asking to be given any sort of special treatment just because I freeze a lot. What I *do* want is a bit shorter cooldown, so I don't have to wait 10+ days to freeze again. I personally don't care how that's done (as long as it's *not* this 'process' idea!), and personally I would be completely fine with the actual freeze-limits being lowered significantly if it meant a shorter cooldown.

That all makes sense. I was just trying to understand why it's such an inconvenience to people who don't freeze a lot because I'm seeing more of that, unless I misinterpreted posts.

[HeatherMarie]

Well, even if you don't freeze a lot, having even one slot occupied unnecessarily for that long could be horrible. For instance, during the holidays, when everyone is scrambling to grab as many holiday breeds as possible in the week or so that they are available. When you only have one week a year (maybe a week and a half, depending on how long the AP wall goes) to grab specific breeds, having slots taken up for what amounts to a punishment for freezing, that's a big deal. That could potentially mean the difference between reaching your scroll goals for a holiday breed or having to wait an entire year, just because a not-frozen is taking up a very valuable slot for three full days.

[Fuzzbucket]

6 hours ago, Aviatus said:

Just for the Record Fuzz, I was talking about what I'd need from here on out, at the time I needed 100 more adults and ~600 more hatchlings. Right now I need 70 more adults and 587 hatchlings, that's why I said I need 6 hatchlings per adult, because that's what's left.

 

Right now I'm waiting to hear back from a mod, for some reason I can't seem to put a poll on myself. My desktop also decided to restart while I was sleeping and deleted all the work I did yesterday, so I don't think I'm going to be doing that math after all, but once I get that poll in place I'll post again. In addition to the options I mentioned above I'll include Fuzzbuckets of (10+(2*T)) every 7 days. Anything else I missed?

 

You would have needed to include mine simply as "as it is now but with 7 day cooldown." I would not have recognised it the way you state it !

 

But in my enthusiasm, I had forgotten that polls are no longer allowed in Suggestions. TJ disabled them ages ago as he said they tell him nothing; you just get a very few  people voting at all, and the majority of those haven't actually read the thread, just have a knee jerk reaction to the first post. I well recall a thread when many of us had read the thread, voted, and as the discussion went on, changed their minds - something else that is impossible with a poll.  TJ said he learns more about the pros and cons by actually reading the thread.

 

What you say about your scroll, though (and now I get you !) does effectively mean that this suggestion basically comes about from someone who at this point has a major problem, and isn't something that the huge majority of players actually need. Even you would benefit very much from a shorter CD.

 

And LORD, HM is right about Holiday freezing. It would be horrible.

[DragonLady86]

As i have an adult pair of every dragon except negeleteds, the hatchlings are all I really need for my goals as well.  Makes it really difficult. 

[Aviatus]

4 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

But in my enthusiasm, I had forgotten that polls are no longer allowed in Suggestions. TJ disabled them ages ago as he said they tell him nothing; you just get a very few  people voting at all, and the majority of those haven't actually read the thread, just have a knee jerk reaction to the first post. I well recall a thread when many of us had read the thread, voted, and as the discussion went on, changed their minds - something else that is impossible with a poll.  TJ said he learns more about the pros and cons by actually reading the thread.

 

Oh..........welp.........oops?  lol there goes that Idea I guess. Still, It seems like a pretty wide consensus against the idea of a freezing process so maybe what's left to discuss is what exactly the cooldown should be? Part of the reason I suggested 3 days is that 3 days is the main unit of time DC goes by, eggs hatch in 3 days, hatchlings grow up in 3 days etc, so it seems like a more natural window to plan around. Out of curiosity why do you think a week is more suitable?

 

Quote

What you say about your scroll, though (and now I get you !) does effectively mean that this suggestion basically comes about from someone who at this point has a major problem, and isn't something that the huge majority of players actually need. Even you would benefit very much from a shorter CD.

 

Oh Yes, I fully recognize I am heavily biased in this argument. Part of the reason I put that sentence in there was for full disclosure. Still, I don't think I'm alone in the way I play (others that play the same way have already posted in this thread), and we will all hit the same wall DragonLady has hit eventually. If there is a way to help these players out, without hurting or being unfair the rest of the playerbase (and that is the major key here) I see that as a good thing.

[Aalbiel]

I think Fuzz suggested a week because it's half the current cooldown? For instance in an extremely easily implemented measure, we could just have the same amount of freezes, but with 1 week cooldown instead of 2 week cooldown. I would be satisfied with this. I feel like this is a really easy solution and wouldn't allow the holiday mass-freezing some people seem to be so petrified of for some reason.

[Fuzzbucket]

Fuzz did indeed. Full disclosure from Fuzz - I don't actually mind what we have now, but I can see that others need something done, and cutting the CD seems the most obvious answer, as well as POSSIBLY upping the limits in an uncomplicated way, not by exotic math. Say add 3 or even 4 per trophy level ?

 

But NOT something that ties up a slot for days; that really disadvantages the average player and would be hell in holiday seasons. Not least for those that have the biggest problems !

[Sazandora]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Fuzz did indeed. Full disclosure from Fuzz - I don't actually mind what we have now, but I can see that others need something done, and cutting the CD seems the most obvious answer, as well as POSSIBLY upping the limits in an uncomplicated way, not by exotic math. Say add 3 or even 4 per trophy level ?

 

But NOT something that ties up a slot for days; that really disadvantages the average player and would be hell in holiday seasons. Not least for those that have the biggest problems !

This is what I've been trying to say all along. Thank you, Fuzz.

[olympe]

I see several things here that make it really hard to argue. First of all, there's the fact that pretty much everyone wants something different. 

From "lower cooldown, but limits reduced accordingly" to "no higher limits, but lower cool-down" to "raised limits" to "no limits on freezing at all once you hit platinum". How am I even supposed to argue with each faction?

• lower cooldown, but limits reduced accordingly: Doesn't really change anything than give you less options. You won't be able to freeze a bunch at once because of the reduced limits. On the other hand, you can easily implement this by limiting your freezing to 1-2 hatchlings a day - and you'll never have to wait long for your slots to come back. 6 Days at most if you freeze 2 every day until you hit the limit. Personally, I don't see it benefiting anyone at all, as it's mere change for the sake of change.
• no higher limits, but lower cool-down: Will not satisfy the people who don't want to wait as long for their slots to come back. Plus, effectively, this does raise your freezing limits per period of time. Even if the limits stay the same and the cool-down gets lowered to 1 week, you'll still be able to freeze twice as much.
• raised limits: Seems to be almost the answer, although "raised limits + lowered cooldown" would be more accurate. However, all players still compete for eggs. This is especially true for eggs that are available only for a short time, and it seems like this would give a certain group of players a big edge.
• no limits after platinum (because more dragons don't give you any more benefits anyway): While you're at it, you can use the same argument to abolish all limits on platinum scrolls. After all, since there's nothing left to reach, there's no need for egg limits or overall scroll limits. (See where this logic is faulty?) Not to mention that a single player could, in theory, clear out the whole AP until there's nothing incu-hatchable left (if they know how to hatch eggs really quickly). Incu-hatch, freeze, rinse, repeat ad infinitum.

The next problem I see is a severe lack of understanding for maths.

• For people who only collect CBs or self-bred eggs: No matter what happens and how often you use Incubate, you'll never be scroll-locked due to too many hatchlings. Scroll-lock can only happen to people who catch or trade for low-time eggs. Unless, of course, they use Stun or don't let their hatchlings get enough views to grow up ASAP. Thus, freezing already affects how many dragons they can raise.
• For people who go for low-time eggs: This is the one case where freezing gives an advantage in actual numbers, and where it bears to ask this one question: What's more important? Being able to freeze as many as you could theoretically raise in exchange for the adults you could get, or getting the 16 "free" hatchlings every two weeks?