Reworking the Dragon Request Sub-forum

[ludwig8989]

I get you Fiona! 😊 Private requests are going to happen certainly and so they should! If they're not prioritised over a sprite of the same quality in DR then there is no issue. I salute anyone who could put a whole dragon together on their own.

 

Right: so the new update means that only cave-ready things go to the completed section. So technically everything should be cave ready now before it's moved. The best way to ensure this is be very honest about sprites and not just move them because someone asked, meaning that every sprite is of the same quality. So a really really good quality check is required. This means things will take longer so maybe make the rules 1 request per person at once instead of 2? Opinions?

 

If that quality check is definitely happening, we should now see an equalish amount from private and DR. Everyone is happy! 😊😊 If this doesn't happen then I'm sorry I'll be raising my eyebrows a bit. I know private requests aren't the issue, but there's obviously a difference in quality between these sprites and DR arts if you look at the statists so we need to make sure DR is up to the same standard for every request. Maybe DR moving slower isn't such a problem after all. It means less requests sitting on the completed list that's for sure.

 

Sorry for the long post

Edited May 31, 2017 by ludwig8989

[olympe]

Right: so the new update means that only cave-ready things go to the completed section. So technically everything should be cave ready now before it's moved. The best way to ensure this is be very honest about sprites and not just move them because someone asked, meaning that every sprite is of the same quality. So a really really good quality check is required.

That's very true. And, considering how much work can go into making just one adult sprite, I think it's imperative that people get the most important crit - on anatomy, pose, perspective and the like - at the earliest stage possible. Which is why I'd love to see those two subsections for "groundwork" - a sketch or whatever you want to base your finished sprite on - and the rest (spriting, shading, getting the light source just right, et cetera).

 

Of course, things could work out in one section, if conceptors are encouraged to seek "final sketch crit" before moving on to spriting, just to make sure that the sketch is up to DC standards thus far. And maybe that is actually the way to go - as long as people do get crit early on, before some poor aspiring spriter puts load of effort into a sprite that won't ever be cave-worthy due to issues that were already obvious at the sketching stage.

 

And, regarding the suggestion of 1 thread per user: I don't think that's necessary, to be frank. Things mostly move slowly enough as it is, and some people are really good at juggling more than one concept. Why limit them?

[ludwig8989]

Sorry for not quoting but I'm on mobile and I just don't want that hassle. But yeah: I don't want just 1 thread per person at all but seeing as some people suggested closing DR altogether (Nonono) I thought it'd be a good compromise

Edited May 31, 2017 by ludwig8989

[Corteo]

Right: so the new update means that only cave-ready things go to the completed section. So technically everything should be cave ready now before it's moved.

 

Technically that is the goal. I would like to caution users though that cave-ready still does not mean it will be released. There is simply too much art for all of it to be used. So while there is a better chance (because it's better quality) one should not see the completed list as a queue of dragons waiting to get incave but rather a pool of options for TJ to pick from or not pick from as he sees fit.

[SkyWolf25]

I get you Fiona! 😊 Private requests are going to happen certainly and so they should! If they're not prioritised over a sprite of the same quality in DR then there is no issue hehehe 💖 I salute anyone who could put a whole dragon together on their own.

 

Right: so the new update means that only cave-ready things go to the completed section. So technically everything should be cave ready now before it's moved. The best way to ensure this is be very honest about sprites and not just move them because someone asked, meaning that every sprite is of the same quality. So a really really good quality check is required. This means things will take longer so maybe make the rules 1 request per person at once instead of 2? Opinions?

 

If that quality check is definitely happening, we should now see an equalish amount from private and DR. Everyone is happy! 😊😊 If this doesn't happen then I'm sorry I'll be raising my eyebrows a bit. I know private requests aren't the issue, but there's obviously a difference in quality between these sprites and DR arts if you look at the statists so we need to make sure DR is up to the same standard for every request. Maybe DR moving slower isn't such a problem after all. It means less requests sitting on the completed list that's for sure.

 

Sorry for the long post

Even if the quality in the DR is raised to be cave-ready, it's natural that in-cavers' art will be picked much more often- just the amount of privately submitted art alone is enough to make that happen. While some spriters prefer to do things slowly, some have become very fast at spriting. DR concepts take months, even years to finish. Birdz made one adult Xeno per 1~3 days, and I've seen Odeen half-finish an adult pygmy in a few hours, just to name a few. They've worked hard to reach that speed and quality, and they'll submit much more dragons than the DR does. So equal private art/CL art releases is not something we should really be hoping for. x)

 

-

Personally I think 2 concepts per person is good. Concepts usually have fluctuating progress speed anyway, so it's nice to go back and forth between the two, haha.

 

Edit:

I don't want just 1 thread per person at all but seeing as some people suggested closing DR altogether (Nonono) I thought it'd be a good compromise smile.gif

Oops, missed this

Edited May 31, 2017 by SkyWolf25

[TehUltimateMage]

Closing DR means temporarily closing it to new topics, afaik. The topics already in the section can keep progressing.

[Sundew]

Of course, things could work out in one section, if conceptors are encouraged to seek "final sketch crit" before moving on to spriting, just to make sure that the sketch is up to DC standards thus far. And maybe that is actually the way to go - as long as people do get crit early on, before some poor aspiring spriter puts load of effort into a sprite that won't ever be cave-worthy due to issues that were already obvious at the sketching stage.

 

And, regarding the suggestion of 1 thread per user: I don't think that's necessary, to be frank. Things mostly move slowly enough as it is, and some people are really good at juggling more than one concept. Why limit them?

I think that would be best: keeping it all in one section, and simply encouraging users to seek crit before moving on.

 

Instead of having a flat limit of 1 or 2 concepts per person, I'd rather see something like allowing 1 new concept every 6 months, with a cap of 5 (or something). It would allow people more time to flesh out concepts in between posting them without creating too strict of a restriction.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Of course it's only natural that a select few people will be able to reach a ideal quality faster. I am in no way chastising these people, as I have said before: the in-cavers are brilliant artists brimming with talent, and I shall always respect them for that. But I'm going to reiterate a point I made earlier. Other people on the forums are also of a fantastic standard, and fully deserve to have some of their stuff in-cave. Fiona Bluefire mentioned there is nobody who wants more people in-cave than the in-cavers - then let it be so! Some are already at a cave-worthy standard, and some just need that little bit more aid to reach that standard. I firmly believe the cave will benefit heavily from having a wider pool of artists.

 

ETA: Again, I firmly approve of heavy crits at each stage of art: sketches, sprite lines, shading. Whether this requires just more searching through threads with a fine-toothed comb, or opening up subsections to make this easier, I believe this will help.

I'm also a fan of narrowing the amount of requests people are allowed. Maybe make it recommended for people to only have one thread at a time, to prevent the influx of loads of requests, particularly with the CL cleanup.

Edited May 31, 2017 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[Fiona]

Saying "Some are already at a cave-worthy standard" is an opinion. Corteo, who has an excellent eye, has said maybe two, with several others close. I haven't looked that closely but tend to trust his assessment. In the end though, there is only one person who can factually state that someone's concept is at a cave-worthy standard, and that is TJ, who alone decides what meets the standard. The rest of us can only offer an opinion. Corteo's opinion on that is based on his experience as a cave-worthy sprite artist for DC, so he's probably pretty close in his opinion to TJ's fact but even for him it's opinion.

[Corteo]

Fi, that's extremely sweet that you think so highly of me but of course I want to stress (like you did) that my opinion doesn't really matter nor reflect TJs.

[irrelevantindigo]

To clarify, I have written in the first post that the DR should close AND open to suggestions. There's no need to just... lock the whole section.

 

As for sub-sections. Again, it's just an option. There are many other options as well.

 

ETA: It's also already a suggestion to have better communiction with TJ, so people are more aware of what isn't going to cut it for the cave.

 

The issue with the DR is it's difficult to move from stage to stage. Artists are busy, in-cave artists have a lot on their plate and aren't always keen on giving crit in the DR due to some underlying bad attitudes. Not to mention the DR is currently overfilled-- concepts used to stay on the front page for a few days, not several hours. Something needs to change. And get enforced or a pinned topic. The DR has a lot of potential to be a great place and that potential is getting snuffed.

 

I'll add ab's suggestion about reworking concept limits, but other than that I don't see any new suggestions here. So please bold/alter the text for any new suggestions so I don't miss them in the discussion.

Edited May 31, 2017 by irrelevantindigo

[ludwig8989]

Even if the quality in the DR is raised to be cave-ready, it's natural that in-cavers' art will be picked much more often- just the amount of privately submitted art alone is enough to make that happen. While some spriters prefer to do things slowly, some have become very fast at spriting. DR concepts take months, even years to finish. Birdz made one adult Xeno per 1~3 days, and I've seen Odeen half-finish an adult pygmy in a few hours, just to name a few. They've worked hard to reach that speed and quality, and they'll submit much more dragons than the DR does. So equal private art/CL art releases is not something we should really be hoping for. x)

I get you yes. Odeen is incredible how on eARTH DOES SOMEONE SPRITE THAT FAST! But I'm going to be really awful here and say do we have any numbers? There were so many dragons on that completed list that looked incredible and could have been released, many by in-cave artists themselves (you make masterpieces you really do!) They've been on CL for a long time and a lot of people were getting them done. I think the number on the CL is being underestimated. I'm really not sure that there's a 2:17 ratio of CL to private being submitted.

 

Look at last year's releases: 2 were on the CL and 17 were private, excluding holidays. That means there are about 10 requests privately per viable sprite on the CL. Say there are 50 dragons on the CL that are pretty much up to scratch. That's 425 private requests being made. That's... that's a lot. Again I know this isn't the discussion here but to understand how to improve DR we need to know what the problems are and looking at the successes of the ones being released is necessary. I was really really hesitant to post this because I'm super worried people will think I'm having a go (I'm really not I wouldn't even think about it! <3 ). And if my numbers seem wrong please correct me. I'm just trying to take a step back and look at the whole picture aaa

Edited May 31, 2017 by ludwig8989

[olympe]

I don't really think that's the case - but the problem is that we don't know squat, and have to make up things as we go. All we have to go by is what we actually observe, and how that makes us feel.

 

It's true that a lot of stuff on the completed list was anything but cave-worthy, and a whole lot of stuff was outdated. The old rainbow dragon sprite (from way before I joined) was probably good enough for the cave 7 years ago, but definitely not any more. (The concept got taken down after sitting on the CL for years.) However, there were also a lot of sprites that looked cave-worthy to me. What we don't know is whether TJ rejected them due to preference, or because he couldn't contact the artists any more. Maybe some of them were collabs by too many new artists, too. Or a hundred of other reasons. Which is why I still hope for better communication.

 

Because communication is what we need the most in order to understand. There was a time where a dragon concpet (called Dovewings, based on doves) which looked like dragonified doves that was actually mentioned and shown as a "good example" for a dragon based off an animal. Imagine how many people got the impression that making animal-based dragons look a lot like the animal is a good idea. And imagine what heppend when the very same concept was later rejected by TJ because it had too few dragon traits...

 

Edited for spellfail.

Edited May 31, 2017 by olympe

[ludwig8989]

Olympe you've summed up everything pretty much perfectly for me

[11th]

A thought: Regardless of what else happens with DR and the CL, we're not going to see the result of the recent changes for at least a year. It's very possible, even likely, that current trends will continue until then. That's just the nature of releases.

 

Just something to keep in mind as everyone is pulling out release numbers. Don't expect things to change overnight.

Edited June 7, 2017 by 11th

[TehUltimateMage]

Related to reworking the DR, but posted here so I don't forget:

 

Would it be possible to open all sketches and sprites to redlining/drawing over, without credit? (It would be opt-out.) I'm going around giving crits, but it takes so much time writing up several paragraphs describing the location of the problem when I can just show it graphically in 3 minutes. Maybe some final crit artists feel the same way. :0

 

Basically, art posted to DR is free game for redlines. I feel like it would speed things up quite a bit.

Edited June 4, 2017 by TehUltimateMage

[olympe]

I know exactly what I mean. In the few cases that I could actually do such a thing, I usually went with the approach that it's easier to say sorry (and preemptivelya abdicate on any kind of credit just in case) than to get permission, with the offer to take the sprite with my redlines/circled area down again if it was wished so by the artist. In almost all cases, this went quite well. (Okay, so then I usually stressed that it was easier for me to show than to explain, partially due to English not being my native language... You get the idea.)

[angelicdragonpuppy]

There's been a couple of really out there requests that have resurfaced lately and been told their concepts (and thus largely their sprites) probably won't work, leading to understandable frustration from the creators that they were approved at all.

 

I understand that 1) they were for the most part made a long time ago and standards have probably changed, and 2) it's a hard thing to shut down a request simply because we don't know if TJ will like it or not, but in future could mods try inquiring with TJ about validity of those topics before approving? And if he doesn't answer, post a disclaimer upon approving that the concept might not fit with D.C., proceed at thy own risk?

[TehUltimateMage]

I thought it was implied that even concepts that fit with DC aren't guaranteed to make it in cave anyway.

 

Now that we have some "out there" concepts that are pretty much done, why not toss them into the completed list void and then start anew with a different one? There's no point in bending them to fit site standards of they're not going to fit site standards to begin with. Sure, it'll be a few more for TJ to look through and give a definite no, but it's worth the one in the million shot in the dark? Better than completely tossing everything the dragon is about and building from ground up.

 

As a compromise, this would only apply to those concepts already done or close to done. New concepts sent in will need to be debated.

Edited June 6, 2017 by TehUltimateMage

[Sundew]

A disclaimer sounds like a good idea, but I don't think we should have the mods check with TJ for every questionable concept (sounds like a lot of tedious maintenance and a lot longer waiting times for approval).

"Proceed at your own risk" is an important mindset for every concept, something that should definitely be reinforced more than it is now, and for all concepts.

 

Does the current Guide to DR topic adequately cover how much of the concept may need to be changed to meet site standards? Haven't read it in awhile, just skimmed it now and think it might benefit from a disclaimer there.

[Jazeki]

A disclaimer sounds like a good idea, but I don't think we should have the mods check with TJ for every questionable concept (sounds like a lot of tedious maintenance and a lot longer waiting times for approval).

"Proceed at your own risk" is an important mindset for every concept, something that should definitely be reinforced more than it is now, and for all concepts.

 

Does the current Guide to DR topic adequately cover how much of the concept may need to be changed to meet site standards? Haven't read it in awhile, just skimmed it now and think it might benefit from a disclaimer there.

I just popped in to look at the DR info and I think it could be updated a little more thoroughly. It even says that you can submit other creatures (I know there is a specific thread for this now) and some of the requests that are moved back into DR are not dragon-y enough, but they could easily count as one of these "other creatures" that are supposedly acceptable.

 

I was also under the impression that anything that had been on the completed list that got moved back to DR was there because TJ was on the fence about releasing them in cave as he had previously deleted requests that were most decidedly not cave worthy. But I could be wrong.

 

Either way, I do think this stuff should be firmed up for anything coming in to the DR section after it unlocks.

 

For example, we have this in the guidelines: "There is a basic Medieval setting to DC (so you can imagine a timeframe), so a cyborg dragon will not fit in the cave." and some of the species in cave right now seem (at least to me) way too advanced for any sort of Medieval setting.

 

Maybe a revamp, since the guidelines are from 2016 and some people may miss the stickies. I didn't even know that the two per OP thing including moved completed list topics was official until someone asked about it in help (and ofc, I got PMed to close a topic).

Edited June 8, 2017 by Jazeki

[Pokemonfan13]

I'm kind of curious what dragons you think don't match the medieval setting thing. As far as I know, we don't have any dragons that were modified or created by advanced human technology?

Edited June 8, 2017 by Pokemonfan13

[Pixxelation]

If you're speaking of the Zyumorphs, they're fully organic, though they do have a more industrial influence in their design. Still, they're clearly dragons, not robots, and haven't been modified in any way.

 

We actually don't have any breeds that are partially robotic or anything, though, so I'm not sure how anything on site could be considered "too advanced for any sort of Medieval setting."

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Hm, I guess concepts like the celestials residing on alternate planes and antareans being believed to have come from a meteor are rather advanced thought processes for a medieval society--although a world where magic exists probably skews things. I don't think anything's too crazy, and I'm actually rather sad the fever description was edited to make it less scientific.

[Pixxelation]

Celestials have basically the same concept as the Shadow Walkers, and those have been around since 2011--it's been DC canon for a while now. Also, there are lots of world cultures involving planes of existence--look at the concept of chakras, for instance (similar, though not identical).

 

As for the Antareans, many ancient civilizations studied the stars, so I don't think it's reaching too much to say that something might have come from up there, especially if someone happened to see a meteorite land.

Edited June 8, 2017 by PieMaster