Reworking the Dragon Request Sub-forum

[SkyWolf25]

...Kinda wonder how a mentoring thread would work out? Like you can post your concept and ask for an in cave mentor to oversee the process. It'd be pretty full at first, likely not everyone would be able to get someone, but in theory the amount of people available to mentor would exponentially increase over time as the mentored artists make it in.

 

Just a random thought

The idea of having an in-cave mentor is really nice! But sadly I don't think that could work in the long term. As Fi said, there are people who will fight about every part of their dragon that's been critiqued, and that will tire the mentors into not participating in the end.

 

Or maybe, instead of a mentor for each concept, the aspiring spriters can ask for a mentor? If a non-cave spriter has been active in DR for x amount of months, they could apply at a pinned thread to ask for a mentor. In-cave spriters can then check the previous activities of the spriter(how active they are, how well they take crits, etc) who applied and choose. If a non-cave spriter goes inactive for x months without notifying this in advance, they are no longer a mentee and the mentor has a free slot again. This also needs the attention of those who are already in-cave, but hopefully this version weeds out people who ask for crits, then refuse to take them.

 

 

Edit:

I am aware that an IRC chat similar to this exists, but I'm not sure if it's for the exact same purpose? This is a good idea though!

You can ask for crits there and they're very helpful! Problem is, it's not very active and there's no guarantee that someone in-cave will be there(Timezones matter too - of all the times I visited, I only met in-cave people once)..

Edited May 28, 2017 by SkyWolf25

[Fuzzbucket]

I think that may be a little harsh. Some art may not be up to DC's standard, but in that case advice and help should be offered instead of outright insulting them.

 

And as for the fact that much on the completed list wasn't up to DC's standards, I therefore agree with some of the reworking. The sense of realism and much of the shading and body shape standards have changed drastically. To avoid people slipping back into the style of old DC, would it not be useful to set up a sort of board of what is up to standard in DC, such as a section in the Dragon Request's Guide? Outlining exactly what art we should expect and in what style would probably greatly help many people and also cut down the workload during final crits.

It may indeed be a little harsh - but just because people firmly believe their artwork (and concept, actually) is up to scratch doesn't make it so. I have once or twice offered crit - I recall one time saying something was very wrong (and it WAS - anyone with an eye could see it, and I got a supportive message from someone else afterwards !) - and all I got was "no it isn't."

 

How do you describe what will make artwork (in general) acceptable ? How can you explain a standard ?

 

If a dragon is clearly not fit for release, why not reject it and give people a choice to drop it or retry? Why let it sit on the list for months, even years?

 

THIS, though. As I said before.

[JOTB]

The sheer volume of dragon requests is overwhelming. Going through and giving crit on every active thread is a lot of work, especially if the art or concept has a lot of problems. Only doing the ones marked for completion is much less intimidating, doesn't require multiple iterations, etc. This is something I do in my spare time and there aren't a lot of incentives to do it, for the reasons Cort and Fi have mentioned and others (like you spend 20 minutes writing something up and the thread then goes inactive). I'm sorry we tend to wait until the last minute but we don't have hours a day to spend in DR. :(

Edited May 28, 2017 by JOTB

[Pixxelation]

So I just checked and 22 of the last 36 releases (two years worth) have featured Pie, Odeen, Birdz, or Infinis. That's, uh. That's kind of ridiculous, even if they are all amazing spriters. So while I think the best thing to do, especially with the DR overhauls, would be to simply add more new spriters--if that won't happen then like Demon I'd almost rather see the whole section process for new artists overhauled, just so the work stops going to waste. But mostly I'd rather just see more new artists. SHAKE IT UPPP.

 

@Demon: rather than double monthly releases I'd rather just see 3-4 breeds released on average instead of the usual 1-2, which achieves the same thing essentially while being less disruptive to people's plans. Maybe double releases on some holiday months would work, though--with Halloween on a 31st and Christmas a 25th there's plenty of time to slip in a new release at the month's start without harming holiday stuff, and it'd help keep holidays from taking over three months of releases every year.

 

@Sky: the artist's agreement talks about having to be submitted like 90 days before a release can be used, though. If things are different for holidays that should be clarified.

 

And yah quicker approvals or rejections would be great, I just wanted to ensure there were some bare minimum guidelines, too :3

I've had three releases in the last two years, and didn't have any in the first half of those two years, so I'm not really sure why I'm being included as an artist who gets released super frequently. Regardless, I'm not sure why any of us should be chastised for having art released. We're unpaid volunteers who work hard to make art for something we care about, and we can't even show it to people if it doesn't get released. The only thing we get out of this whole process is the occasional release, and when that happens, we get attacked for it. I really can't think of any good reasons for that.

 

We get it--you (general) want to see more new artists released, and I assume a lot of that stems from personal desires to be in-cave. So what advice can I give to achieve those desires? Work as hard as you can to make sure your art is of cave quality, both objectively and stylistically. Ask artists questions. Learn new skills! If you don't sprite and just sketch, learn to sprite! If you just line, learn to shade! The more you can contribute, the less dependent you'll be on others, and the more likely that you can become a valuable contributor to the site.

 

As for a new system entirely, I would definitely be okay with replacing DR with an application-only mentorship program. The only downside is that it might become difficult in situations where artists only do one thing, since they're dependent on other people to produce finished products (again, I think aspiring artists should learn to be able to do all steps of the spriting process, even if they have a preference for one).

Edited May 28, 2017 by PieMaster

[FoxintheBox4]

...Kinda wonder how a mentoring thread would work out? Like you can post your concept and ask for an in cave mentor to oversee the process. It'd be pretty full at first, likely not everyone would be able to get someone, but in theory the amount of people available to mentor would exponentially increase over time as the mentored artists make it in.

 

Just a random thought

At some point this thread was like ~ post a sprite and get feedback ~

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=65824&st=0

 

Maybe a similar thread could be created for those who practice to sprite for DR/Events?

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

We get it--you (general) want to see more new artists released, and I assume a lot of that stems from personal desires to be in-cave. So what advice can I give to achieve those desires? Work as hard as you can to make sure your art is of cave quality, both objectively and stylistically. Ask artists questions. Learn new skills! If you don't sprite and just sketch, learn to sprite! If you just line, learn to shade! The more you can contribute, the less dependent you'll be on others, and the more likely that you can become a valuable contributor to the site.

I wouldn't necessarily say the desire is to be in-cave - it's the fact that many good artists work hard on a topic they're passionate about and would like that to be recognised.

 

Personally, I wouldn't ever chastise in-cavers for being in cave. There's a reason their art has been selected in the first place, and all of them are talented and fantastic artists. I just personally see it as a shame that many non-cavers have created and contributed to countless amazing concepts that don't ever get in. Each in-cave artist has a different style, and that is excellent - I wouldn't dare ever say that each in-caver's art looks the same, as that's simply an insult. But I believe many concepts that were once on the completed list were way up to in-cave standard and met the criteria you suggested, but were just never released for one reason or another.

 

And, just to play devil's advocate, isn’t receiving sprite feedback what the dragon request thread is actually for? Why clog one thread with sprites that require feedback - that is what the actual thread itself is for. On one big art thread, sprites would get lost in the masses and jumbled up and missed or forgotten about. I dunno.

Edited May 28, 2017 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[Fuzzbucket]

I've had three releases in the last two years, and didn't have any in the first half of those two years, so I'm not really sure why I'm being included as an artist who gets released super frequently. Regardless, I'm not sure why any of us should be chastised for having art released. We're unpaid volunteers who work hard to make art for something we care about, and we can't even show it to people if it doesn't get released. The only thing we get out of this whole process is the occasional release, and when that happens, we get attacked for it. I really can't think of any good reasons for that.

This, so much. We all out here have no idea how often in-cave artists are doing work that will also never see the light of day. Given how many some of them seem to be working on at once, going by comments since this discussion started, they probably have a FAR higher rejection rate than people in DR, who only have 2 at a time max.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

The sheer volume of dragon requests is overwhelming. Going through and giving crit on every active thread is a lot of work, especially if the art or concept has a lot of problems. Only doing the ones marked for completion is much less intimidating, doesn't require multiple iterations, etc. This is something I do in my spare time and there aren't a lot of incentives to do it, for the reasons Cort and Fi have mentioned and others (like you spend 20 minutes writing something up and the thread then goes inactive). I'm sorry we tend to wait until the last minute but we don't have hours a day to spend in DR.

I get we're your coming from. Not as an in-cave sketchers or spriters​, but I understand being too busy to actually give crits to a massively overwhelming number of dragons. My comment about leaving a small message about PMing you a reminder still holds. That way concepts wont be waiting until the final critique takes place and they have to go with a whole new design

[Pixxelation]

I wouldn't necessarily say the desire is to be in-cave - it's the fact that many good artists work hard on a topic they're passionate about and would like that to be recognised.

 

Personally, I wouldn't ever chastise in-cavers for being in cave. There's a reason their art has been selected in the first place, and all of them are talented and fantastic artists. I just personally see it as a shame that many non-cavers have created and contributed to countless amazing concepts that don't ever get in. Each in-cave artist has a different style, and that is excellent - I wouldn't dare ever say that each in-caver's art looks the same, as that's simply an insult. But I believe many concepts that were once on the completed list were way up to in-cave standard and met the criteria you suggested, but were just never released for one reason or another.

A sprite looking complete ≠ a sprite being suitable for the website, and I think that's a distinction people need to understand they may not be qualified to recognize. As an in-cave artist, I can tell you that the vast majority of the Completed List very much was not suited for release, even if they still were pretty and 'complete.' And even then, most of the concepts of cave quality either already had in-cavers on the credits, or were made by long-inactive artists.

 

As for my assumption, I stand by it. Most of the people I see mentioning the site 'needing' to release new artists are people who have been in DR for years, yet have seen very little growth and put in no effort to learn new skills--they just keep drawing the same cartoony sketches, which then create sprite sets that have major underlying issues and are stylistically inappropriate for the site. Or they only do lining, which means they are basically unable to contribute anything new. I concur with Corteo's statement about DR having a harmful culture of resistance to growth and improvement, and I think that's where the "need more artists" mentality comes from.

[spatio]

I personally like the suggestion of clearing the CL out frequently, even of things that pass final crit. Maybe have a little pre-written note that indicates whether it was the art/concept/etc that made it get wiped, so people can stick their art somewhere else or redo a concept. Even if it's because of flippant things, lol like "didn't like that color scheme," just kick it. I understand there's a huge backlog, so at least keeping only the best of the best will 1) slim down the CL monstrosity, and 2) give artists and conceptors options to take/display their art/concept elsewhere if it gets booted.

 

We're unpaid volunteers who work hard to make art for something we care about, and we can't even show it to people if it doesn't get released.

Also, thisss. I know I'm not an in-cave artist, but I'm staff over at ToO, and sometimes (especially new release threads) it does seem like a lot of people here don't realize that doing art for concepts/sites like DC is a hobby.

[Jazeki]

Things I would like to happen for a more efficient DR:

 

Lock it down for the time being. Right now, there is an explosion of requests in DR because the list was wiped. It should be locked from receiving any more new concepts until more go back to the completed list.

 

As ADP suggested, more frequent completed list wipes (bi-annually, if need be) with critique before they are moved back to DR. I understand that these sprites need to be the best they can be, but it's hard on concepters and artists to have to keep traipsing back and forth to get a hold of someone for critique. So it should be clear what needs fixing before the rework even begins.

 

Clear rejection of a concept. One of my concepts disappeared a while ago (and I'm pretty sure it was rejected because it wouldn't look right next to what's being released now). I was told I could PM TJ to find out. I didn't. Because well. It's been years. Instead, if a concept in the completed list is going to be rejected, someone (probably a mod if TJ is too busy) should indicate that it is not going to be released as-is and send it back to DR (with clear reasons why) to let the artists do with it as they will.

 

More releases so that things keep moving in the cave and in the request section. If multiple species are released, there should be one "new" spriter and one "seasoned" spriter. If single species, trade off between seasoned and new per release. That way, we get more in-cave spriters who are able to offer critique. To clarify: This is mainly aimed at applying to the dragon requests that have already been pulled for release.

 

Divide up the section into subsections (possibly by year and then by stage or just by stage). So that it's easier for artists to give critique as needed. For example, all of the concepts from 2010-2015 would go into their own section. Then they would be divided up further according to what they need/what stage they are in. There would be a section for critiquing, a section for needing new artists, a section for being in the spriting stage, etc.

 

Have an IRC chat/discord/designated thread that is just for getting critique on your concept. I know the #arts channel does this, but not everyone is available all the time and this should be a place where you can go and ask for someone to take a look at your thread in real time. If a thread, who is "modding" for the day.

 

Have designated "critique days" where artists can pop into the first three pages of DR and offer critique. This will alleviate the problem of endless waiting for critique only to have it come in the last stages of spriting and review.

 

Edit: Just Remembered. Have a clear section for revamps. Or an indication that sprites that are being revamped will only be worked on by current in-cave spriters since all revamped sprites have been replaced by those done by artists who are already in the cave.

 

And I had more, but I forgot them for the moment. If they come to me, I'll do another post.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Jazeki

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

A sprite looking complete ≠ a sprite being suitable for the website, and I think that's a distinction people need to understand they may not be qualified to recognize. As an in-cave artist, I can tell you that the vast majority of the Completed List very much was not suited for release, even if they still were pretty and 'complete.' And even then, most of the concepts of cave quality either already had in-cavers on the credits, or were made by long-inactive artists.

Oh yeah, I understand a lot wasn't appropriate for the nowadays standards, particularly a lot of stuff from years back before the standards were properly understood/implemented - in this sense I definitely approve of frequent clearings out. However, obviously some stuff on there was fit for release, and these are the concepts I mean c:

 

they just keep drawing the same cartoony sketches, which then create sprite sets that have major underlying issues and are stylistically inappropriate for the site.

This brings me back to what I mentioned up in the thread: wouldn't it be easier for all parties if sketches were to be properly critiqued to avoid all the hassle with final crits?

 

[Edit: My typos get me again!]

Edited May 28, 2017 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[Corteo]

If multiple species are released, there should be one "new" spriter and one "seasoned" spriter. If single species, trade off between seasoned and new per release. That way, we get more in-cave spriters who are able to offer critique.

 

See this would be a problem. Currently there about 2 artists in DR who I would consider good enough to be released right now. Having a goal of releasing new artists to have new artists will drive down the quality control.

 

EDIT: and I know that what I consider isn't the rule things are released by, but that's the condition I see DR in right now.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Corteo

[Jazeki]

See this would be a problem.  Currently there about 2 artists in DR who I would consider good enough to be released right now.  Having a goal of releasing new artists to have new artists will drive down the quality control.

I meant from the concepts that TJ has already pulled for definite release. Sock has hinted that there is a huge backlog of concepts that are ready to go--hence not needing to worry about the completed list being clear. Surely, there are artists there that have not yet had their first in-cave release as a dragon spriter.

 

Edit: That was a suggestion mostly for TJ and I would see it as an incentive for artists to improve their skills.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Jazeki

[Corteo]

Can you link me to those hints? Genuinely curious. But even then my point stands. Concepts should be released based off of the art/concept quality. In my opinion who the artist is shouldn't matter - and that includes releasing based on if the person is incave or not incave.

[Pixxelation]

This brings me back to what I mentioned up in the thread: wouldn't it be easier for all parties if sketches were to be properly critiqued to avoid all the hassle with final crits?

In an ideal world, yes, this would be great, but the volume of dragon requests is simply too great for this to be a reasonable expectation. Final critique as it is is already overwhelming for the few of us who regularly participate; expecting us to critique every sketch thrown at DR is simply I feasible. And again, please remember that we're hobbyists--we simply can't spend all of our free time trying to critique unusable sketches, especially when our feedback has a high likelihood of being ignored.

[Jazeki]

Can you link me to those hints?  Genuinely curious.  But even then my point stands.  Concepts should be released based off of the art/concept quality.  In my opinion who the artist is shouldn't matter - and that includes releasing based on if the person is incave or not incave.

I know that the artist shouldn't matter and the art should, but one of the main points is to alleviate having to rely on the small handful of in-cave artists that are able to offer critique to keep the requests thread moving.

 

Update: Hint at a "queue." There are more, but that one comes to mind because it was in a reply to me. I'll update when I can find the other ones that I have seen.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Jazeki

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I've had three releases in the last two years, and didn't have any in the first half of those two years, so I'm not really sure why I'm being included as an artist who gets released super frequently. Regardless, I'm not sure why any of us should be chastised for having art released. We're unpaid volunteers who work hard to make art for something we care about, and we can't even show it to people if it doesn't get released. The only thing we get out of this whole process is the occasional release, and when that happens, we get attacked for it. I really can't think of any good reasons for that.

 

We get it--you (general) want to see more new artists released, and I assume a lot of that stems from personal desires to be in-cave. So what advice can I give to achieve those desires? Work as hard as you can to make sure your art is of cave quality, both objectively and stylistically. Ask artists questions. Learn new skills! If you don't sprite and just sketch, learn to sprite! If you just line, learn to shade! The more you can contribute, the less dependent you'll be on others, and the more likely that you can become a valuable contributor to the site.

 

As for a new system entirely, I would definitely be okay with replacing DR with an application-only mentorship program. The only downside is that it might become difficult in situations where artists only do one thing, since they're dependent on other people to produce finished products (again, I think aspiring artists should learn to be able to do all steps of the spriting process, even if they have a preference for one).

Birdz, I am NOT chastising you or the others in any way! You make great art for free. There is nothing there TO chastise!

 

Everything comes down to TJ. Only TJ. And I'm simply saying it would be nice if he chose new artists more often. Like it or not, it's fairly evident that a small subset of artists are used over and over again, and unlike some who have posted here, I see a swell of new talent in DR that's going untapped in doing so, not a meager one or two.

 

Just a few from the first page: Lindy, Skywolf25, xDragonia, Kennon, Dragonwinzodiac... off the first page alone!

 

To say nothing of people like Playdoh and Process, who are in cave now but only with about one sprite (could be wrong--I confuse these two--will check)

 

This is not an old artist versus new war, although I know it can feel that way. Piemaster, your Desipises are my second favorite Halloweens (Marrows are my masters ), and I've got several high gen Candelabra checkers because I love their pretty colors. Corteo, your light luminas are hands down one of my favorite dragons in sight, looks AND personality wise, and I've got over half a dozen high gen lineages with them. I WANT to keep seeing dragons from people who are already in cave. I just think there's also a huge wellspring of other talent waiting to be tapped, and I'd like to see that happen.

 

Or if it does have to go the other way? Then, yes, please limit or close off DR so much effort stops going to waste.

 

 

 

PS: yes, it's true that I have concepts in the works and want them in. But that's TWO concepts versus the dozens I enjoy and comment and crit on, so suggestions that I'm only on this for selfish reasons rather sting ;w;

 

PSS: whoops, PieMaster, didn't realize you hadn't gotten so many releases! I wasn't sure about mentioning you or Infinis or Mysfytt or Aangs-sister and it looks like I chose wrong, ha. Still, the point--that a lot of dragons come from a small group--remains. And that's NOT a fault on any of you by any means, and I apologize if it came off that way! I just hope that in time there'll be enough new talent bubbling that the ratios will be a bit less extreme.

Edited May 28, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy

[TehUltimateMage]

Oh! This thread is new. Let me take a moment to plug my Releases Analysis thread and its spreadsheet while I read through a couple pages of replies. Feel free to link these in the first post if you want, ii.

[JOTB]

Oh! This thread is new. Let me take a moment to plug my Releases Analysis thread and its spreadsheet while I read through a couple pages of replies. Feel free to link these in the first post if you want, ii.

Needs more graphs.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Oh! This thread is new. Let me take a moment to plug my Releases Analysis thread and its spreadsheet while I read through a couple pages of replies. Feel free to link these in the first post if you want, ii.

Spreadsheet is a godsend, Mage. You're awesome.

 

And also, the idea of DR being closed off for a while isn't half bad. It's true that there's an absolute influx with the completed list overhaul, and I feel like lots of the requests that have been going for years and are still active could be homed in on and completed and sent off - so many great concepts have been floating around for years with little progress to show for it even thought the concept-ers [gonna start coining that one] are still around. It'd be nice to see some of those concepts completed, like going off to university

[Pixxelation]

Birdz, I am NOT chastising you or the others in any way! You make great art for free. There is nothing there TO chastise!

 

Everything comes down to TJ. Only TJ. And I'm simply saying it would be nice if he chose new artists more often. Like it or not, it's fairly evident that a small subset of artists are used over and over again, and unlike some who have posted here, I see a swell of new talent in DR that's going untapped in doing so, not a meager one or two.

 

Just a few from the first page: Lindy, Skywolf25, xDragonia, Kennon, Dragonwinzodiac... off the first page alone!

 

To say nothing of people like Playdoh and Process, who are in cave now but only with about one sprite (could be wrong--I confuse these two--will check)

 

This is not an old artist versus new war, although I know it can feel that way. Piemaster, your Desipises are my second favorite Halloweens (Marrows are my masters ), and I've got several high gen Candelabra checkers because I love their pretty colors. Corteo, your light luminas are hands down one of my favorite dragons in sight, looks AND personality wise, and I've got over half a dozen high gen lineages with them. I WANT to keep seeing dragons from people who are already in cave. I just think there's also a huge wellspring of other talent waiting to be tapped, and I'd like to see that happen.

 

Or if it does have to go the other way? Then, yes, please limit or close off DR so much effort stops going to waste.

 

 

 

PS: yes, it's true that I have concepts in the works and want them in. But that's TWO concepts versus the dozens I enjoy and comment and crit on, so suggestions that I'm only on this for selfish reasons rather sting ;w;

 

PSS: whoops, PieMaster, didn't realize you hadn't gotten so many releases! I wasn't sure about mentioning you or Infinis or Mysfytt or Aangs-sister and it looks like I chose wrong, ha. Still, the point--that a lot of dragons come from a small group--remains. And that's NOT a fault on any of you by any means, and I apologize if it came off that way! I just hope that in time there'll be enough new talent bubbling that the ratios will be a bit less extreme.

(Hi, I'm PieMaster--birdz and I aren't two children in a trench coat, I swear)

 

Regardless of your intent, I can tell you that it hurts when people complain that your art is being used. Many of us have started questioning why we're even contributing art to the site if people get angry at us for it--there's very little reward, and it's incredibly discouraging to see backlash directed at your name alone. It makes us feel like we're not welcome.

 

~

 

I really don't think TJ CAN release them more often without the quality of releases suffering, though. I'm not going to name names, but I will agree that several of the artists you listed very likely could get released at some point--but most of them (and most of DR) are still very much learning, and are not yet where they need to be to be in-cave.

 

~

 

I appreciate the kind words, but as I've said, I think a lot of people are still very much still learning, though there are two-or-so artists who I do personally think are cave-ready.

 

~

 

I wasn't insinuating anyone specifically, but rather a general sentiment that a lot of desire for new in-cavers reads as "I want to be one of the new in-cavers," and I say that because I have literally seen DR artists complain about a lack of new artists IN release threads that involved new artists, or in the very next release.

 

~

 

I think the vast interchangeability of artists illustrates the problem with your argument.

 

(Also, my apologies if my responses come across as somewhat blunt--I'm mobile and thus have lessened ability to articulate my thoughts well)

Edited May 28, 2017 by PieMaster

[Fuzzbucket]

(Hi, I'm PieMaster--birdz and I aren't two children in a trench coat, I swear)

 

Regardless of your intent, I can tell you that it hurts when people complain that your art is being used. I really don't think TJ CAN release them more often without the quality of releases suffering, though. I'm not going to name names, but I will agree that several of the artists you listed very likely could get released at some point--but most of them (and most of DR)  are still very much learning, and are not yet where they need to be to be in-cave.

 

~

 

I appreciate the kind words, but as I've said, I think a lot of people are still very much still learning, though there are two-or-so artists who I do personally think are cave-ready.

Yes. And -

If multiple species are released, there should be one "new" spriter and one "seasoned" spriter. If single species, trade off between seasoned and new per release.

And suppose there are none from new spriters that are genuinely ready (except in the opinion of their fan base) - do we need not to have releases at all ?

[Infinis]

I'm speaking almost entirely as an artist here, because I really don't have much opinion from a mod point of view.

 

From a mod and artist point of view, I have felt for a very long time that DR at the very least needs to be shut down to stem the tide of requests and allow some of them to actually have the time devoted to them that they need to GET finished. The ever growing amount of requests is overwhelming, from both an "I can art" and an "I can crit" perspective. I literally cannot devote time to crit everything I see, because there's just too much.

 

I have increasingly felt that DR needs to be done away with entirely in favor of either a hiring model like other sites or a mentorship program where we can train prospective artists in spriting for DC.

 

Even if DR is kept in some fashion, I think we need face the fact that allowing concept-only submissions is really just not working. There are just not enough artists to go around, whether in-cave or not, and so a lot of concept-only things tend to die. ):

 

I see complaints about me getting multiple releases, but from the other side, this is exactly what I worked my ass off to learn this skill for. I have worked hard for six years to improve my art to get it consistently up to stylistic and quality standards for DC. From my point of view, I am getting exactly what I worked for, what I wanted.

 

DR is first and foremost a platform to get your ideas released on the site, but when I see consistent resistance to the feedback given that would push those requests closer to cave worthy, it just makes me retreat into secrecy. I know that it feels like a waste when you have to scrap and start over, I get it. But sometimes scrapping and starting over produces a better end result than desperately trying to stick with what you have.

 

):

[Jazeki]

Yes. And -

If multiple species are released, there should be one "new" spriter and one "seasoned" spriter. If single species, trade off between seasoned and new per release.

And suppose there are none from new spriters that are genuinely ready (except in the opinion of their fan base) - do we need not to have releases at all ?

I like releases. My favorite time was having one new release a month. Again, that was aimed at TJ (and would benefit the DR thread because it would mean more artists could critique). It was just a suggestion on my part to facilitate movement. I was under the impression (as you conveniently excluded the edit) that there is a queue--a list--of dragons ready to go and I was implying that TJ could choose new artists from those already slated for release. I didn't imply that releases should just stop because we don't have new spriters. By DR standards, I have no pull since I don't do any art and all my concepts are in DR (where they have been for years). I like the art that is in the cave. I like the established artists, but the releases make it seem like TJ only has a small handful of artists making art for the cave. And this probably isn't the case.