Reworking the Dragon Request Sub-forum

[irrelevantindigo]

I agree completely with these ^

[VixenDra]

[*]More communication. Unless the artists involved veto this. put up a section for rejected concepts where TJ also gives his reasons for rejecting this. Maybe he just doesn't like the concept/sprite (due to personal preference), maybe there's something wrong with the art or style, maybe there's a complicated mechanism involved or too many alts available - whichever. But let everyone learn from the mistakes of the past so they don't get repeated.

Exactly this... sometimes it propably can be sth as minor as the colour scheme TJ doesn't want to release... Or this kind of wings or whatever... I've seen crits on one's choice of some anatomy-related theory as sth wrong just because the given critiquing person followed a different theory and didn't personally accept the theory used... no wonder why some people get defensive in some cases, ofc not all, in many things just look off even if you don't know much about anatomy or theories or whatever:P

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

I wholeheartedly agree with all of Olympe's points there.

[Alrexwolf]

I guess my biggest problem with DR is that the artists who are already in-cave are the ones who have the final say in what goes into the pool for TJ to pick from.

 

Many of the artists here have said that only a few artists from DR are ones they would consider for release... but, from my personal experience, there are many concepts being worked on that already look as good or better than things released into the cave - and I'm not just talking about things that were released a long time ago like the old vampire style and such, but recent releases.

 

If the anatomy is correct and the shading is correct, there aren't a bunch of useless alts with no purpose or problems like that, etc... why should a concept be rejected?

 

The in-cave artists want to pick art that's up to their standards... but "standards" in art are so subjective. I think if the artists can say the anatomy/shading is correct, it should be able to be passed on for TJ's consideration.

 

It just bothers me when the artists come in and say that a concept doesn't work unless it's a lore-based issue or something with unrealistic parts (ie, no gundragons )

 

Any concept can be made into a beautiful, worthy sprite with the right description and artist.

 

I believe TJ should set a limit of viable concepts for a certain time period (ie, 24/year or something, that's about 2 or 3 dragons a month) and when the quota is met for the "next" year DR is locked to new posts, and the CL should be looked through for missing artists, missing sprites, etc. They should then be kicked back to DR.

 

It sounds like a bad idea because it would take longer, but I think it would help decrease the backlog of requests. It would also give everyone a whole year or so to work on concepts slowly and really flesh them out, tweak the sprites/anatomy, and give the artists time to critique everyone instead of having a handful of people work on an explosion of requests. Have a handful of people work on a fair amount of requests that gets smaller and smaller as the year goes on. That way, in-cave spriters can help too, and everything will in theory be DC-worthy with their help, even if they can only dedicate a little time to tweaking and critiquing.

[Corteo]

If the anatomy is correct and the shading is correct, there aren't a bunch of useless alts with no purpose or problems like that, etc... why should a concept be rejected?

 

The in-cave artists want to pick art that's up to their standards... but "standards" in art are so subjective. I think if the artists can say the anatomy/shading is correct, it should be able to be passed on for TJ's consideration.

 

If that is all true then a concept will pass final critique. That's exactly why we have it. Also, expressed standards have all been uniform so far in past final critiques. Everything that has been subjective so far has come with a disclaimer from the artist.

 

Any concept can be made into a beautiful, worthy sprite with the right description and artist.

See this is the problem I have with the current DR mentality. Not everything can be made to work for DC. And this mentality is what is at the root of the push back that make artists not want to comment in the first place.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Corteo

[irrelevantindigo]

{quote}

If that is all true then a concept will pass final critique.  That's exactly why we have it.  Also, expressed standards have all been uniform so far in past final critiques.  Everything that has been subjective so far has come with a disclaimer from the artist.

 

{quote}

See this is the problem I have with the current DR mentality.  Not everything can be made to work for DC.  And this mentality is what is at the root of the push back that make artists not want to comment in the first place.

 

I agree with Corteo.

 

Even if in-cave artists' standards were subjective, TJ has picked them for a reason. Their standards probably weren't always what they are now either. They've worked hard to have the eye for sprite work they have.

(This is again, why I think how someone becomes an 'in-cave artist' needs to be reworked. Some dragons are cave ready-- but not all the artists are.)

 

Sometimes you have to accept that the sprite you made is beautiful and can be posted on deviantArt or something, but just isn't destined for the cave.

 

ETA quote.

Edited May 28, 2017 by irrelevantindigo

[TehUltimateMage]

It just bothers me when the artists come in and say that a concept doesn't work unless it's a lore-based issue or something with unrealistic parts (ie, no gundragons  )

 

Any concept can be made into a beautiful, worthy sprite with the right description and artist.

That's the thing. Some concepts don't work. Think of it like a job application: you can be the hardest working, most efficient worker in the world, but if you don't meet the qualifications you don't get chosen for the position. You can have beautiful sprites, but at the end of the day, if they don't match the site's feel and image, they're overlooked.

 

Quoting an earlier post of mine:

I've noticed that very little conceptors want to drop their idea when they realize it doesn't work/doesn't fit the cave, opting instead to force their dragon into something that works within the guidelines [...] rather than start with a different and more suitable idea.

[DragonsDame]

See this is the problem I have with the current DR mentality. Not everything can be made to work for DC. And this mentality is what is at the root of the push back that make artists not want to comment in the first place.

If a concept is not gonna work why is it accepted in the first place? I mean when people create the topic with the description and concept, I guess this would be the first step to filter these? I'm confused.

[Shokomon]

If a concept is not gonna work why is it accepted in the first place? I mean when people create the topic with the description and concept, I guess this would be the first step to filter these? I'm confused.

I don't think when a concept is proposed, that people know immediately that it won't work.

 

It seems (from my view anyway) like concepts are accepted with the possibility that they could work with the cave. Not that they will.

 

Because you only really find out if it's workable once it enters the DR and people star dropping advice or highlighting issues in the concepts or artwork.

 

Now, some things are already banned, like enchanted objects, and outright dragon/animal hybrids, but a lot of things are more subjective that may not come out until after several look overs.

 

At least, that's how I see it.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

A huge part of the forums is communication. If there's no communication, nothing can get done. And a lot of the time, dragon requests suffer because of it. You sit there and you wait and wait and wait for crits. Then you move onto the next step. Again, you sit there waiting, waiting, and even more waiting. And then you repeat this until the final critique. And then you have everyone and their mom come in and tell you that your dragon is not ready.

 

Why?

 

Because it's not up to DC standards. But then again, it's not the person's fault that it looks that way. They waited for someone to pop in to tell them what they needed to fix beforehand​. And then artists wonder why the people get mad at them. And sometimes the person does PM an artist but they don't hold their breath. Because if the artists view the thread and don't respond, why would they respond to the PM?

 

Note, I am not blaming anyone, I'm just stating facts that I notice in some concepts (except for the PM thing, I could be wrong about that)

 

I know the actual in-cave artists are busy with life and reviewing a ton of concepts everyday, but we need to work out a system to where a concept is getting at least one critic before it progresses, that way it doesn't suffer and have to start from scratch when it's ready for the final critique.

[11th]

Kinda' just sitting back and watching where this thread goes, but I will say this:

 

 

-I wouldn't be against DR being closed off to new threads for a bit. Over the past month or two DR has gone from being a bit stagnant to fairly busy with all of the former CL threads moving back in, especially on the weekends. It wasn't uncommon for threads to stay on the front page for two or three days, and now some get pushed back to page two in less than twenty-four hours. It can be a bit overwhelming to keep up with things.

 

-Regular rejection of CL threads, either biannually or quarterly, would be helpful in avoiding this kind of mass move in the future. Rather than deletion, maybe rejected threads could be moved back to DR for the OP and/or artist(s) to decide what to do. If they want to try to fix things, then they can fix it, and if they don't then they can ask a mod to lock the thread.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

RANDOM IDEA ALERT but:

 

What if we had a new group of mods: Art Approvers? People who could serve as mentors and give final critiques alongside the in-cave artists and other mods, but with it as their main responsibility?

 

They wouldn't have to be in cave, they'd just have to prove they have a good grasp of anatomy, spriting, and other things that make a DC concept tick. The first batch could be nominated by in-cave artists (after asking if the person is interested, of course ), and would then maybe require one or two other in cave artists to review their abilities and give a nod of approval to the nomination. After that initial round, those new mods could nominate new mods in the same way, if more turn out to be needed.

Edited May 28, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Infinis]

I don't think this is something that's been touched on yet:

 

the more you can do of the whole art process by yourself - from sketch through a complete sprite set - the better.

 

If you look closely at the releases, except for special ones, the sprites made by in cavers are, by and large, single person works. There's really not that much collabing.

 

If you are aspiring to get in cave, one of the best suggestions I can give you is to start learning how to complete the whole process by yourself. The sketch, the linework, and the coloring. The adults, hatchies, and eggs. The concept and descriptions.

 

Collabing is great; it's a good way to build off the best points of each other's skill. But it's also very important that you be able to stand alone, because in cave you can't expect others to come and help.

[Fiona]

Actually. Infi, Cort mentioned the same idea. It really is true, as not being able to do your own sketches, for example, really limits work on an idea. I'm not much of a sketch artist, though I can do the rest of the process on my own, and it makes it much harder to get things from idea to finished product. Yes, it's possible to get dragons released if you can't do the whole thing but it's harder.

 

I'm working on being a better sketch artist, with a better grasp of anatomy. Those of you who would like to be in-cave but are not yet, challenge yourself. Actively work on your weak areas.

[DarkEternity]

As it stands you're more likely to get money doing commissions than you are getting a concept through DR And there are simply more requests than that which can get released (say TJ released 100 new dragons a month, I think that's unrealistic and the cave would get a whole lot cluttered with new breeds unless new ways of getting eggs can be introduced).

 

And moreover there were always a lot of dragons on the completed list that I liked a lot more than the dragons that got released so I don't think there's a massive quality issue. I think it's a volume issue.

 

I reckon that the best way to stem the tide and to prevent wasted sprites is to only allow approved sketches into DR. And once that is approved, only approved sprite outlines are permitted to proceed, and approved flats/shading so on and so forth. It would cause a lot of grief with a high initial rejection rate but it's better than seeing unused things go for months.

 

I don't agree with approved artists because every good artist will turn out a piece of bad art every now and again and you're in danger of producing similar stuff again and again.

 

[demonicvampiregirl]

I agree DarkEternity, the whole making a new mod section for Art Approval to handle DR would be great, add this in and more concepts that are likely to get in-cave would be put into the DR and there wouldn't be the mile and a half long list of possibles with no answers. Still would need a approval/denial after being done so it can be reworked if needed but this would help clear it out, keep it active and have less dragons just sitting.

[irrelevantindigo]

@DarkEternity and demonicvampiregirl,

I believe this was already touched on before in more detail in the earlier pages. I had even added it to the first post.

 

DR is a pretty big section, and I think that a number of sub-sections might be helpful - especially if you need artist's crit to get from one stage to another. These are the sections and requirements for movement I'd like to see:

Concepts. For starting new concepts. In order to get to the next stage, you need an adult sketch (for each adult you want to have for your concept) that got approved by an in-cave artist (or some volunteers with a good eye that TJ/the artists would need to assign). Ideally, the sketch artist in question should also put a copy of their signed artist's agreement for this concept into one of their post, so it can be linked in the OP. This way, we don't get into trouble with the artist's agreement or artists being gone and the like. It also avoids all drama due to crit being given only after completion.

 

 

Spritework: Concepts with a viable sketch go here to be made into a sprite. Lining and shading happen here, as does the final critique. I think that all artists involved in the spritework should add a copy of their signed artist's agreement for this concept to one of their posts, so it can be easily referenced.

 

 

Polishing / Finishing touches: For adding hatchlings, eggs and descriptions/additional info.

 

 

Completed Section. For completed concepts with final artist's critique.

 

 

Revamps and Reworks: A section where concepts (both in-cave and not-yet-in-cave) that have been completed can be worked on again. Be it because of the artist's request, or because the art has become outdated in the meantime (old vampires, for example) or rejection by TJ or whatever else the reason might be. (Although I must say that I could easily do without this particular section.)

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by irrelevantindigo

[demonicvampiregirl]

Yep, I did not even see that post. >_< Either way, I do support adding a whole new mod section for it as well!

[DarkEternity]

Yup!

[DragonsDame]

I think everyone is just thinking a bit too dramatic. Like closing the whole section??? That is the way to encourage new artists... (yes I'm sarcastic)

 

The thing is everyone is saying we have 400 things in DR, but I have never seen 400 actual ACTIVE topics there, usually the first few pages are, the rest is something where the OP or others haven't commented on for months or years!

Now it is only different because everything from the CL was bumped back. And I think the mistake was that they were bumped back for rework to the DR and not to some different subforum. If it were not, there wouldn't be problems like struggling with keeping topics on top etc...

 

Also how about getting an approval step right after the sketch and the lining is done? That is only one more approval step, not the end of world and certainly not something as hectic as getting approvals and subforums for every step! A lot of people are right, doing everything from the start just because the final, it's a pain in the ass, so this would be the most logical thing to do.

 

Lastly I have mentioned this before, I don't really see why it is such a problem that people don't do full steps. Yes that is ideal but I'm sure that some fo the in-cave artists started like us, and in a lot of cases in the beginning especially it is encouraging to work with other! And as I said once there is positive feedback people will get more encouraged to learn to do sprites from A to Z. So literally artists you say that if you can't do everything then it's not your place to be in the DR? Even thought that section is for getting better and flash out ideas ...

Edited May 29, 2017 by DragonsDame

[11th]

Now it is only different because everything from the CL was bumped back. And I think the mistake was that they were bumped back for rework to the DR and not to some different subforum. If it were not, there wouldn't be problems like struggling with keeping topics on top etc...

I doubt that a separate sub-forum for reworking CL requests would have made things easier to balance, just like how I don't really think sub-forums for different levels of progress would help. It would be easier to see how far along each thread is, but people would have to check every sub-forum instead of just one to keep on top of things.

[Jazeki]

DragonsDame, when most people here are suggesting closing DR, they mean for the time being. Back in the day, it wasn't open all the time for submissions since there were so many.

[Fuzzbucket]

DragonsDame, when most people here are suggesting closing DR, they mean for the time being. Back in the day, it wasn't open all the time for submissions since there were so many.

Maybe limit the permitted number. "DR is full at the moment; please try again next week..."

 

But yes to having to do more oneself (I have no axe to grind; I once came up with a concept, but I can't even draw, never mind sprite )

 

I seem over the years to have noticed a number of threads rather like (shortened and grossly exaggerated version, here to get the point over.)

 

How about a dragon that likes blueberries and has a yellow tail. Egg bluey, hatchling has stripes and is noisy. Would be kewt but I can't sprite - anyone wanna do me some artwork ? thanks for approving, modname.

 

If the OP had to do at least the sketches before the topic was ever approved it MIGHT help. Because there are also several threads where several people are submitting completely different artwork, which confuses further. In fact MANY DR threads are muddled and make it hard to know what you are actually commenting on. As in: "no you commented on the wrong sprite, I'm using yellowbelly's now" when that isn't even clear in the first post and it takes major trawling to find which ones are the favoured ones just now.

 

Tl;dr, but it behooves the OP to keep the thing MUCH better organised than is often the case. They would get more, and better, concrit.

Edited May 29, 2017 by fuzzbucket

[Fiona]

Some of the things you guys are starting to get enthused about simply aren't going to happen. Separate subforums? That gets unwieldy and I don't think there's a snowball's chance of TJ doing it. Requiring separate approvals for each phase, starting from sketches? What will happen to people who present a fairly finished idea, with sprites? I sometimes will scratch sprite - that is, skip the sketch phase and just start pixeling. I'm not the only one who does that sometimes. It's a perfectly viable method. REQUIRING a sketch phase circumvents that.

 

DR used to be a place where people could learn to sprite. There's not really much teaching going on there anymore. Maybe some of the fault for that lies with the in-cavers. I don't think that's the only reason that doesn't happen though. There are probably a lot of factors.

 

Dragon Cave is always going to need a fresh influx of artists. People move on with their lives. I like that DR can be a place to see new artists learn how to make their art fit with DC's style. I don't want to lose that in any revamp.

 

[Amazon_warrior]

DR used to be a place where people could learn to sprite. There's not really much teaching going on there anymore. Maybe some of the fault for that lies with the in-cavers. I don't think that's the only reason that doesn't happen though. There are probably a lot of factors.

I've seen several in-cave spriters note that their crit either has been ignored or outright pushed back against, though. I imagine it doesn't take too much of that before someone throws up their hands and stops bothering - especially if they're only doing it in their own time as a hobby. Personally, I stop doing hobbies if I stop enjoying them.