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Alse15

Stronger Anti-Harassment System

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Maybe there could be an optional way for people to disable PM's or make their PM address private, if they genuinely never want to receive PM's from strangers.

 

The fact of the matter is, it meets no existing definition of harassment anywhere for a person on the Internet to send a single politely worded message to a publicly available email address. There is NO way TJ could possibly enforce anything like that, even if he wanted to.

 

Anyone who wants to never be PM'd needs to focus on finding a way of making their contact information not be publicly available. Saying that other users need to read the fine print on our profiles before composing a message to us is tilting at windmills. I might as well tell the whole Internet they all need to spell and punctuate their messages properly before sending me email. I could SAY it all I want, but it's still not going to happen. :-)

THIS actually strikes me as a MUCH better solution.

THAT and ADPs idea of making SURE that people know how to use the protections already in place IF there is a problem.

 

It would give those that value their privacy an option while NOT interfering with the rest. IF a person, for whatever reason, does NOT want to be contacted, they should be able to make their PM link private so that ONLY someone that they have given it to could contact them. It would be a LOAD easier, too, than trying to enforce rules that MOST would not see the need for, and most would resent as unreasonably strict, as MOST wouldn't view a single PM as harassment.

 

It would be more effective at preventing unwanted PMs, too, I would think.

Edited by Silverswift

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It's akin to a salesman knocking,on your door, trying to sell you something. More often than not, those are frowned upon, rudely sent away or even the dogs unleashed....

My uncle works door-to-door. I dispise people who are rude to door-to-door salesmen or even those guys distributing ads on the street. They are working because they need the money, not to offend you.

 

 

There is no need to be rude to someone who's being polite. Even if you put a big red sign that says "I DON'T WANT TO BE CONTACTED", there can still be people missing it. What's the problem if the message is polite, anyway? Do your eyes start bleeding? "Oh no an unwanted trade request, better think I'm being harrassed than to ignore it or reply with a 'no'!". When you get a polite PM, you can choose to ignore it or just say no. If they keep at it, report it. If they stop, great, you were both polite adults, congratulations.

 

 

 

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A way to turn off PMs would be a good thing, but if you don't want PMs there already *is* a way to deal with it:

Fill your own inbox

 

Once its full, you can't get any additional messages.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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First contact can also be someone asking for directions to the station. If someone did ask you for directions without being rude, would you call the cops on them for having got lost?

 

Imagine someone going through the wishlist of a fellow player, seeing a special lineage request they can breed and send a PM with "GLOMP!" and a teleport link. According to your logic, they might get reported and even warned for that.

Apples and Melons, honestly. Directions are something entirely impersonal, and you don't seek specific people out to ask.

 

A wishlist, on the other hand, is an explicit "call me sign" should you have what people need. So how's that similar to stalking and contacting very specific people?

 

But I think it's insane to have to be afraid of being reported for harassment, when you're just sending someone a polite question, offer or message. Is it really so hard to either ignore the message and delete it, or send a quick 'sorry not interested' back?

So do you really think that - for instance - finding the PERFECT dragon - a common, usually - to complete a lineage as part of a line in an egg you find when you are AP hunting and PMing the owner to ask if they would breed you a sib is totally unreasonable and tantamount to harassment ?

So IF warning over a first polite contact is ever to be considered, I strongly urge that strict rules be put into place to govern what constitutes a "Warn-off" that if ignored, can earn a warn.

I did not say that at all. Its not harassment, not at the first message, still its not good manners either, especially how some players contact every single one of the new prize owners within at most a day of their coming out.

 

Maybe it's a cultural difference? Is America different from Europe in this respect? I'm accustomed to strangers greeting with "good morning" in the street, people asking about time, people asking the way, people commenting on the weather, on our dogs etc. None of this bothers me in any way.

That's random smalltalk. Imagine someone standing in your doorway, ringing your bell, and asking the same questions. Just because you had not posted a stay away sign. It's basic courtesy to not just barge in onto someone or worse, many people one after another.

 

So much this.

There is a VERY big difference between harassing someone and sending a friendly PM to someone with nothing in their signature if they'd like to trade.

 

You know, that's exactly the attitude I think is antisocial. It's completely clear new winners are under distress, and clearly thinking of many things BUT getting massive messages just because they did not think about filling their inbox or posting a sticky? It's just really, really, rude.

My uncle works door-to-door. I dispise people who are rude to door-to-door salesmen or even those guys distributing ads on the street. They are working because they need the money, not to offend you.

 

Imagine having 23 of those salesman barge in on you each hour. Because that's the life of a newly found prize owner. Heck, they even do get found when they have no DC forums account whatsoever, and contacted!

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You know, that's exactly the attitude I think is antisocial. It's completely clear new winners are under distress, and clearly thinking of many things BUT getting massive messages just because they did not think about filling their inbox or posting a sticky? It's just really, really, rude.

My attitude is antisocial, but penalizing people for contacting others politely isn't? : P

 

Like I said above, I'd be okay with an option to disable PMs, but punishing people for contacting others in a friendly one time fashion is ridiculous.

 

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My attitude is antisocial, but penalizing people for contacting others politely isn't? : P

 

Like I said above, I'd be okay with an option to disable PMs, but punishing people for contacting others in a friendly one time fashion is ridiculous.

which, if you'd care to read my entire post, is not what i've been saying.

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Now you're comparing apples with melons, WB. I mean, seriously, nobody here was talking about prize owners and people contacting them in huge numbers. What we were talking about were general PMs.

 

I did not say that at all. Its not harassment, not at the first message, still its not good manners either, especially how some players contact every single one of the new prize owners within at most a day of their coming out.
There are people who do that? Seriously? (And just how many times did they hit gold/silver/bronze?) If so, how do you know about these things?

 

 

Also, I wasn't ever thinking of people who contact new prize owners ASAP because *I* know that they're under pressure and that enough other people will do the same.

 

What I, personally, was talking about are things like this: Two years ago, I found a 4th gen yule from a perfect checker with whites. I also managed to get a mate for him. (Thanks!) In the holiday season a little over a year ago, I decided to send all yule eggs of his to the AP because I didn't expect to find that one a mate, and I nearly wouldn't have bred him at all this year - until I saw someone post that they found a 4th gen yule from a perfect checker with whites - and already had a mate for him on their scroll.

 

You know what? I contacted that person out of the blue, without written nor implicit permission. I just did it. And guess what? We'll both be breeding these soon. Neither of us would be able to do that if I hadn't done the unthinkable and written a PM. blink.gif According to the wishes of some people, I'd not only haven't gotten an answer or a simple no if I was lucky, I'd even have been reported and gotten a warn.

Edited by olympe

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My attitude is antisocial, but penalizing people for contacting others politely isn't? : P

 

Like I said above, I'd be okay with an option to disable PMs, but punishing people for contacting others in a friendly one time fashion is ridiculous.

which, if you'd care to read my entire post, is not what i've been saying.

You said:

 

What I still don't get is why so many people think that even the first message should be normal and expected. It's akin to a salesman knocking,on your door, trying to sell you something. More often than not, those are frowned upon, rudely sent away or even the dogs unleashed....

 

Same goes for phone/email-ads/sales,

 

Unless someone has shown that he/she wants to trade, be it in sig, profile or a trade post, I refrain from contacting people - there's no such thing as an implicit permission,to make first contact.

Which does powerfully suggest exactly that.

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I'm thinking both a PM cut-off switch and the white-out suggestion for those who'd like to only allow a few specific people to contact them would be ideal.

 

Then the onus is on those who don't want contact with the rest of us, rather than everybody in the community being afraid to contact anyone else with whom they aren't already acquainted. smile.gif

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in my case, I can't really use a system like that, so I rely upon my signature and whatnot to weed out unwanted pms and pm from people with issues who NEED to get through to me. So filling my PM box is also not an option.

 

I have had individuals Pm me and say "I read your scroll, profile etc." and... they launch into what they want If you read it, when way are you asking me?

Edited by Starscream

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in my case, I can't really use a system like that, so I rely upon my signature and whatnot to weed out unwanted pms and pm from people with issues who NEED to get through to me. So filling my PM box is also not an option.

 

I have had individuals Pm me and say "I read your scroll, profile etc." and... they launch into what they want If you read it, when way are you asking me?

Yes, that is true.

 

While a shut off switch for PMs and a few other things would suffice for most, being a mod makes your situation a bit unique. NOT sure if mods are allowed to deal with situations that are related to them.... aka, could you give warns to people that are harassing you personally? OR would another mod have to do it?

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The discussion on whether or not it's fair to warn over people PM'ing with explicit permission or for respectfully PM'ing once even with a 'no PM'ing' note in the profile/sig is moot because mods just aren't going to do that.

 

aka, could you give warns to people that are harassing you personally? OR would another mod have to do it?

 

Depends on the situation. I think all of us are mature enough to recognize when we are not feeling responsible enough to handle mod duties. There are few situations where I feel comfortable giving out warns when it is me being harassed.

 

However, I'm not sure either of the above is really pertinent to the thread. ^^;;

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In many other environments, the mods have two accounts: one for their duties, one as normal users. Wouldn't that be the easiest solution?

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In many other environments, the mods have two accounts: one for their duties, one as normal users. Wouldn't that be the easiest solution?

THIS, actually, isn't a bad suggestion. I don't KNOW how TJ would feel about it, but it would certainly solve Starscream's dilemma. As a mod, they could field stuff related to modly duties, while having a private account, just the same as the rest of us all have, would allow blocking anyone that was being a nuisance.

Edited by Silverswift

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The discussion on whether or not it's fair to warn over people PM'ing with explicit permission or for respectfully PM'ing once even with a 'no PM'ing' note in the profile/sig is moot because mods just aren't going to do that.

Makes perfect sense. And, IMHO, clarifies that both behaviors aren't harassment.

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The discussion on whether or not it's fair to warn over people PM'ing with explicit permission or for respectfully PM'ing once even with a 'no PM'ing' note in the profile/sig is moot because mods just aren't going to do that.

Oh whew, glad to hear that!

 

With that out of the way, I'm down for either "block all PM" settings or stronger bans for persistent / really rude offenders.

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I'm curious about a couple of things...and don't expect numbers. But, how often do people complain about harassment? Is it really that prevalent? And when it happens, are they told they can block the offending person? If it is a rare thing, this all seems to be to be a bit of a tempest in a teapot. If it's common, then something probably should be done.

 

 

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I'm curious about a couple of things...and don't expect numbers. But, how often do people complain about harassment? Is it really that prevalent? And when it happens, are they told they can block the offending person? If it is a rare thing, this all seems to be to be a bit of a tempest in a teapot. If it's common, then something probably should be done.

many people don't report, they just suffer silently or go away.

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The only thing I support is the report in the pms button. Otherwise maybe the option the turn off pming except for 'buddies' but with a block list it seems pointless.

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THIS, actually, isn't a bad suggestion. I don't KNOW how TJ would feel about it, but it would certainly solve Starscream's dilemma. As a mod, they could field stuff related to modly duties, while having a private account, just the same as the rest of us all have,  would allow blocking anyone that was being a nuisance.

Its not a bad solution actually. I am not sure how that would go down. I could easily adapt to the use of my site name that I use in regards to my website. However, it could be a bit of a pita in regards to switching over accounts to deal with forum/chat issues. But it would definitely allow a mod to get both worlds.

 

The drawback to the concept would be, my name is all over my scroll (except turned off for the time being on my dragons) and it may be possible for users to say, well we can't get through to sunstar for her dragons, maybe try Starscream.

 

As far as reports for Harassment. I have received a few 'second hand' reports regarding prize owners that have been given a brutal time regarding people demanding stuff. I have contacted the prize owner, and we discussed it.

 

What I am getting is that people want to be nice and does not want to make waves. They allow the people to demand things and force them to make lists or to insert them somewhere on the list.

 

The problem with people not reporting situations as severe as that, is the people doing the harassment feel it is okay and that nothing will get done, so they do it to others and it perpetuates.

 

People need to report those who are being really pushy, especially if no has been said, or if they indicate "I cannot put you on a list now, try again when it opens" and the up their game to get on the list or start offering more extravagant items.

 

Long before I became a mod, I had some perfectly vile PM's regarding dragons I had caught that were LIT. I mean absolutely obnoxious PM's. And that was part of the reason I went to my current stance with signatures. And why my name is off my scroll because it seems to invite unwanted attention. Unfortunately then, I did not realise I could foreward these PM's to moderators.

 

This is part of the reason I also desire to see harassment system implemented. People may not realise they can bring PM issues to moderators and that they do not need to take slag from users who are truly being obnoxious.

 

In one LIT situation one of my friends online communicated with me that I intercepted a hatchling that was going to someone else. I was preparing to return it, when the user burst in and started to scream out "STARSCREAM TOOK MY HATCHLING". Which at that point I apologised to the other user and said, on second though, I will not be returning it after that call out. I then had to deal with the user - or had someone else do it, I don't remember exactly, I think I did deal with them, because call outs against other users are not permitted in irc. I would have returned it if the situation remained polite, which it had started out as.

 

IN IRC though, if we are having an issue with a user, we generally take it to a different mod or hop to try to keep personal bias out of it. I will admit, sometimes it is difficult to do that. I also have had to put a user on ignore because I felt I would unable to remain civil. Other mods knew this and understood I could not moderate them so they would take care of any issues arising.

 

Also In IRC is a different nature ot forums, as we cannot edit or delete posts that people make. Bad situations can spark fast and ignite to roaring flames, hurt feelings, and general discontent fast. Fortunately we find those situations relatively rare. In cases where harassment occurs on IRC, and we usually go over collected logs, captures, discussions and discuss amongst the staff to decide how to handle it. It can occasionally result in permanent removal off the server - but those situations are a lot more intense than simply Breeding harassment. Most users are not going to find that happen to themselves anyway. That call is invariably discussed by the team and with one of the upper IRCOPers.

 

Another reason why blocking my PMs is not a good plan for me, is because I sometimes get a user messaging me asking why they were banned. Sometimes I find their IP has now paralleled a ban from a previous user. Which we would fix.

 

IRC is a tricky beast also because if we are not observing chat - and there are several staff who are active at most times of the day, we may not catch all what is going on, and then we catch a user doing something, they get upset because another user did it and did not get caught. Which is why, reporting stuff is important. It tells us where problems are so we can fix them quickly.

 

For users who do not want to bother mods with reports about things, really, that is why we are here. in IRC I have often had people PM me about issues they need to discuss with someone-anyone, but someone they can trust. I won't judge. I may not beable to help, I may have to direct them to a help-line.

 

Unfortunately, IRC actions can be a little more noticeable than Forum Actions. It is unavoidable. In general what we say when queries go up regarding an action is "We do not discuss bans."

 

Report button for PM's would be grand.

 

edit: sorry for the novel. TL:DR version. IRC moderation is a different thing from Forum Moderation, based on the same - or at least very similar criteria though.

Edited by Starscream

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Its not a bad solution actually. I am not sure how that would go down. I could easily adapt to the use of my site name that I use in regards to my website. However, it could be a bit of a pita in regards to switching over accounts to deal with forum/chat issues. But it would definitely allow a mod to get both worlds.

 

The drawback to the concept would be, my name is all over my scroll (except turned off for the time being on my dragons) and it may be possible for users to say, well we can't get through to sunstar for her dragons, maybe try Starscream.

 

As far as reports for Harassment. I have received a few 'second hand' reports regarding prize owners that have been given a brutal time regarding people demanding stuff. I have contacted the prize owner, and we discussed it.

 

What I am getting is that people want to be nice and does not want to make waves. They allow the people to demand things and force them to make lists or to insert them somewhere on the list.

 

The problem with people not reporting situations as severe as that, is the people doing the harassment feel it is okay and that nothing will get done, so they do it to others and it perpetuates.

 

People need to report those who are being really pushy, especially if no has been said, or if they indicate "I cannot put you on a list now, try again when it opens" and the up their game to get on the list or start offering more extravagant items.

 

Long before I became a mod, I had some perfectly vile PM's regarding dragons I had caught that were LIT. I mean absolutely obnoxious PM's. And that was part of the reason I went to my current stance with signatures. And why my name is off my scroll because it seems to invite unwanted attention. Unfortunately then, I did not realise I could foreward these PM's to moderators.

 

This is part of the reason I also desire to see harassment system implemented. People may not realise they can bring PM issues to moderators and that they do not need to take slag from users who are truly being obnoxious.

 

In one LIT situation one of my friends online communicated with me that I intercepted a hatchling that was going to someone else. I was preparing to return it, when the user burst in and started to scream out "STARSCREAM TOOK MY HATCHLING". Which at that point I apologised to the other user and said, on second though, I will not be returning it after that call out. I then had to deal with the user - or had someone else do it, I don't remember exactly, I think I did deal with them, because call outs against other users are not permitted in irc. I would have returned it if the situation remained polite, which it had started out as.

 

IN IRC though, if we are having an issue with a user, we generally take it to a different mod or hop to try to keep personal bias out of it. I will admit, sometimes it is difficult to do that. I also have had to put a user on ignore because I felt I would unable to remain civil. Other mods knew this and understood I could not moderate them so they would take care of any issues arising.

 

Also In IRC is a different nature ot forums, as we cannot edit or delete posts that people make. Bad situations can spark fast and ignite to roaring flames, hurt feelings, and general discontent fast. Fortunately we find those situations relatively rare. In cases where harassment occurs on IRC, and we usually go over collected logs, captures, discussions and discuss amongst the staff to decide how to handle it. It can occasionally result in permanent removal off the server - but those situations are a lot more intense than simply Breeding harassment. Most users are not going to find that happen to themselves anyway. That call is invariably discussed by the team and with one of the upper IRCOPers.

 

Another reason why blocking my PMs is not a good plan for me, is because I sometimes get a user messaging me asking why they were banned. Sometimes I find their IP has now paralleled a ban from a previous user. Which we would fix.

 

IRC is a tricky beast also because if we are not observing chat - and there are several staff who are active at most times of the day, we may not catch all what is going on, and then we catch a user doing something, they get upset because another user did it and did not get caught. Which is why, reporting stuff is important. It tells us where problems are so we can fix them quickly.

 

For users who do not want to bother mods with reports about things, really, that is why we are here. in IRC I have often had people PM me about issues they need to discuss with someone-anyone, but someone they can trust. I won't judge. I may not beable to help, I may have to direct them to a help-line.

 

Unfortunately, IRC actions can be a little more noticeable than Forum Actions. It is unavoidable. In general what we say when queries go up regarding an action is "We do not discuss bans."

 

Report button for PM's would be grand.

 

edit: sorry for the novel. TL:DR version. IRC moderation is a different thing from Forum Moderation, based on the same - or at least very similar criteria though.

I Think it is possible to hide your name on your scroll entirely, isn't it?

If you decided to go that route?

 

You must have more valuable stuff than I do, though, because I don't get much in the way of requests or offers for trades.

In any case, I sort of wonder what someone else asked... how prevalent IS harassment on here?

It is more common for some groups... prize winners... than others i am sure.

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I haven't had much recently, but I do occasionally get people asking. I don't get a whole lot of valuable stuff mostly because I stick to my rules. I won't ask anyone anything unless they are actively offering.

 

As far how prevalent it is, it is hard to really tell, but it does occur, sometimes spanning multiple sites - where all we can do is attempt to control it on our home turf. I have seen issues regarding scams, prizes, personal and other.

 

I am actually considering, as an experiment to re-enable my name on my scroll - as it is hidden, just to see what manner of PM's I do get. I am hesitant because I am very private.

 

As it stands though, I have shown off an acquisition and have immediately had people ask for offspring from it. I really hate having to Say, "I got this today, please don't PM for offspring" :/ What I fear mostly is if I do return my name, particularly on a couple dragons I think are of value, I may solicit unwanted attention. I want to show off my scroll, I am proud of my collection. I really do not want unwanted requests. I won't have a mate for my acquisitions for at least until the next major event holidays - and that is roughly a year in time for me to get to a second/third gen.

 

I do not think the situation I had earlier today, I do not think the person fully understood I do not do requests but it really sucks to have to say. I don't do requests.

 

I wonder though - Would it be possible for something to be tagable on individual dragons via actions page or even user settings (that can be toggled off or on on actions page that can indicate trade ability of offspring. Where that may not be harassment system persay, but if a user can look at a dragon and see offspring trade status: Not trading/trading it may allow a user to decide, Okay, they aren't trading this now. That way I can toggle my trade status to off for general scroll, and turn it on via actions.for anything I am willing to deal with.

 

ponderings.

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I wonder though -  Would it be possible for something to be tagable on individual dragons via actions page or even user settings (that can be toggled off or on on actions page that can indicate trade ability of offspring. Where that may not be harassment system persay, but if a user can look at a dragon and see offspring trade status: Not trading/trading it may allow a user to decide, Okay, they aren't trading this now. That way I can toggle my trade status to off for general scroll, and turn it on via actions.for anything I am willing to deal with.

 

ponderings.

I'm going to go ahead and open up a suggestion for this in another thread. :3 I'll edit the link back in when I am finished.

 

Edit: The suggestion for this can be found here: https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=165888

Edited by Jazeki

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I wonder though -  Would it be possible for something to be tagable on individual dragons via actions page or even user settings (that can be toggled off or on on actions page that can indicate trade ability of offspring. Where that may not be harassment system persay, but if a user can look at a dragon and see offspring trade status: Not trading/trading it may allow a user to decide, Okay, they aren't trading this now. That way I can toggle my trade status to off for general scroll, and turn it on via actions.for anything I am willing to deal with.

 

ponderings.

Actually, that is an idea I could totally support. :3

 

I don't hide my scroll, in fact I keep mine pretty public and linked to in my sig, but it would be a handy for other things as well. I might use it as a way of saying... nope not accepting offers or requests on that dragon's babies right now. For example if I owe someone an egg from them already.

Edited by Silverswift

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<snip>

 

While I DO get that some people do NOT want to be contacted... at ALL.... I am not sure that I would count one PM as harassment. I have set up trades via PM, in fact. I might NOT have what a person is asking for, but I might have something else I'd like to see if they are interested in. IF they say, 'No, Thanks' then that is the end of it. THAT being said, it would be a shame for someone to get warned because they wanted to do something as harmless as gift something to someone, return and auto'd/repulsed eggie or... heaven forbid... make a counter offer on a trade. It would be a shame if people were afraid to PM at ALL because it might be construed as 'harassment' and get them a warn. As it is I sometimes wonder what to do if someone doesn't reply... does that mean they aren't interested and don't want to talk to me and will feel harassed if I PM them further, or have they just not seen my message yet. This suggestion would only make that worse, IMO.

 

<snip>

Bolding is mine for indicating what I am replying about. The forum has a wonderful feature that will eliminate those worries if a message has been read or not. When you compose a message, before you send it off check the track box first. Then you will be able to answer your own question if it has been read. If the tracked message disappears from your tracking page, it was read and deleted. If you don't hear back from them I would assume it to be a no.

 

I do agree with many people who don't think a single PM constitutes harassment. I went to look up the word in the dictionary.

harass

 

verb (used with object)

1.

to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.

 

2.

to trouble by repeated attacks, incursions, etc., as in war or hostilities; harry; raid.

 

 

British Dictionary definitions for harass

 

verb

 

1.

(transitive) to trouble, torment, or confuse by continual persistent attacks, questions, etc

I looked up harassment also.

harassment

 

noun

1.

the act or an instance of harassing, or disturbing, pestering, or troubling repeatedly; persecution:

"She sued her boss for sexual harassment."

Quotes taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/

 

A single polite PM fails to qualify from my vantage point.

 

I've been active on the forums for several years now. The only time I had a reportable PM land in my box was fairly early on and it was simply spam advertising another web site. I was a little confused how to handle it so I wrote a mod. They wrote back asking me to forward the PM and that was the last I heard about it.

 

The bases really are already covered if people will utilze them. You can't idiot proof everything.

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