ANSWERED:Give Concept Creators Credit In-Site

[~!~]

So if seven different people came up with a Fox Dragon, all very similier in description, yet only one of them has spriters making a complete set that ends up incave, who gets the credit? the one who managed to get ppl working on their idea? Yet the other 6 had the same idea, which were similier to the completed one... It would be unfair to credit one when they all had very similier ideas in how the fox dragon should look...

 

Or take the horse dragon. Say there were a total of three people, one wants the horse dragon to be based off the mustang, one wanted it throughbred in looks, the third wanted it like a pinto. Everything else is the same except the build of the dragon (which are all horse breeds so very similier in build) yet the one that its decided on get the credit while the other two don't. Still unfair in my opinion as they all throught it up around just its off a different breed of horse.

So long as the ideas were though of independently of each other, I don't see why this is unfair.

 

Besides, what are the odds that three people think of three identical dragons? If all DR required by way of description was "a purple horse with bat wings," it would be very likely, but DR requires a lot more than that. For instance, I'm working on a Tiger dragon right now that is significantly different from the current completed Tiger dragon and the work-in-progress Tiger dragon, and those two Tiger dragons are also quite different from one another. Tiger inspiration is the only thing they have in common.

 

Plus, if the mustang breed gets into the cave, the conceptor for the mustang breed gets credit. If the thoroughbred and pinto breeds are different enough, they could get into the cave under their own steam, and their conceptors would get credit for them.

 

Right now, there's a dragon in the works that is very similar to the Magi dragon. That's because it's a close cousin. I wouldn't think that the conceptor of the Magi dragon would get credit for that, any more than the inventor of a tiger would get credit for a Tiger dragon (you know, if there was one).

[Ferus]

And the fact that one of those requests had to be more interesting than the others in order for more people to show interest is also a factor. If it makes it in-cave because it was interesting enough out of all the others, shouldn't the person behind it earn credit?

[~!~]

And the fact that one of those requests had to be more interesting than the others in order for more people to show interest is also a factor. If it makes it in-cave because it was interesting enough out of all the others, shouldn't the person behind it earn credit?

This too, although it would depend greatly on what reasoning TJ uses to put one dragon in the cave and not another, which we can only guess at.

[Lythiaren]

I would say if several people had identical ideas and all had sprites made separately, they should be credited separately. They didn't work together, why should they all be credited together?

 

Though common sense would've brought all the similar ideas together into a set, such as the flowers, zodiacs, gemstones and so on.

[hazeh]

If concepts are not worked on together, no matter the similarity, they are credited separately.

 

I made a common dragon entirely by myself and with the art from Wook. Someone else made a dragon that was the exact same concept, but with their own spin on it. I can't lay claim to that dragon because it isn't mine, my common dragon is the one I worked on. People can't lay claim to duplicate dragon requests just because the dragons happen to be insanely similar.

 

I don't think you missed anything. owo; *drops*

 

Weeeellll the way my thought process goes is an idea takes hold (in the case of the harvester, it was "lol we should make a cider dragon" as an extension of... I think it was Kurai's thread) and I will stew on it until the vague shadow of a dragon becomes a clearer silhouette. From there I will determine where they live and what they eat (or in this case, drink, since they have no teeth) based on the originating thought. In the case of the harvester, TJ vetoed the idea of basing a set around alcoholic drinks so many concepts from that thread fizzled, but mine persisted because I adapted the cider pressing to juicing instead. When it came time to refine their appearance I took up a sample that vaguely resembled what I already had in mind (WoW Proto-drake, in this case, which I spliced with the gold wyvern body type concept, which itself was derived from Monster Hunter pseudowyverns combined with the DnD gold and a touch of my own creativity) and ran with it. Finding the dragon adorable in appearance and too cute to gift with fangs, the basis for their society and came to revolve around "eat drink and be merry", sans "eat" because they would subsist entirely on juices they pressed themselves.

 

So like all ideas, the harvester hails from a lengthy process. If you want to be quite literal, the initial spur that led to their creation was "lol let's make a cider dragon". :3

 

Okay, good |D

 

 

That's actually very similar how I start out with my concepts :3 I take a small idea and add onto it until I feel it's worthy enough to be considered its own dragon breed. There's one I've been working on currently in my head and am eager to request because I feel it would work nicely in the cave. I started from a simple idea- or rather, natural occurrence- and built an entire dragon from that.

Even though I will be using my own sketches, I know there are many people who don't quite have the ability to draw as well as they'd like to be put in a sprite. That's why they ask artists, such as yourself. But don't you think it'd be nice to give them credit- not rights- for taking the time to come up with a dragon breed based on a single idea? I mean, look at what you just described. If you hadn't done the art, wouldn't you have liked to at least be acknowledged for being the one behind the scenes of the entire dragon itself?

c: I know I would. Plus, if my art wasn't used, I'd want people to come to me instead of the artists for more detailed information on the breed. You have the luxury of being both, so you could say all you need is spriter credit. For those who aren't able, though, it's a nice thought of appreciation c:

I'd want to ask questions and thank the conceptors of my favorite breeds, so knowing who they are and paying the proper respects appeals to me greatly.

 

 

So your basis was the cider dragon. Well, it is your dragon because you were the one who came up with that idea, and made it unique from all the other (potential) cider dragons out there. c: I think that's where the concept definition lies.

[Lythiaren]

Okay, good |D

 

 

That's actually very similar how I start out with my concepts :3 I take a small idea and add onto it until I feel it's worthy enough to be considered its own dragon breed. There's one I've been working on currently in my head and am eager to request because I feel it would work nicely in the cave. I started from a simple idea- or rather, natural occurrence- and built an entire dragon from that.

Even though I will be using my own sketches, I know there are many people who don't quite have the ability to draw as well as they'd like to be put in a sprite. That's why they ask artists, such as yourself. But don't you think it'd be nice to give them credit- not rights- for taking the time to come up with a dragon breed based on a single idea? I mean, look at what you just described. If you hadn't done the art, wouldn't you have liked to at least be acknowledged for being the one behind the scenes of the entire dragon itself?

c: I know I would. Plus, if my art wasn't used, I'd want people to come to me instead of the artists for more detailed information on the breed. You have the luxury of being both, so you could say all you need is spriter credit. For those who aren't able, though, it's a nice thought of appreciation c:

I'd want to ask questions and thank the conceptors of my favorite breeds, so knowing who they are and paying the proper respects appeals to me greatly.

 

 

So your basis was the cider dragon. Well, it is your dragon because you were the one who came up with that idea, and made it unique from all the other (potential) cider dragons out there. c: I think that's where the concept definition lies.

Well of course, I'm a special case. I don't let other people sprite my concepts because I'm quite willing to do it myself. :3

 

And for those who have difficulty with the visual aspect but have a way with words, like undertow (who did the concept work for the cyclops and antler dragons, which I'd sketched because of the stunning imagery portrayed by just the words!) for example, when I'm asked to sketch I will let people have at it for spriting because it's not my concept. They deserve a mention, most certainly.

 

The gray area, however, arises when there's a bunch of people who claim they've done different amounts of work. I'm not sure how to handle that or even standardize it, which is why the zillions of questions pouring out of my keyboard tonight. >>

 

The bullet points and allocation of credit based on that is a good idea, though.

[hazeh]

Well of course, I'm a special case. I don't let other people sprite my concepts because I'm quite willing to do it myself. :3

 

And for those who have difficulty with the visual aspect but have a way with words, like undertow (who did the concept work for the cyclops and antler dragons, which I'd sketched because of the stunning imagery portrayed by just the words!) for example, when I'm asked to sketch I will let people have at it for spriting because it's not my concept. They deserve a mention, most certainly.

 

The gray area, however, arises when there's a bunch of people who claim they've done different amounts of work. I'm not sure how to handle that or even standardize it, which is why the zillions of questions pouring out of my keyboard tonight. >>

 

The bullet points and allocation of credit based on that is a good idea, though.

:3 Yep.

 

 

For the gray area, I've just kind of had the thought that whomever is in charge of the concept, be it the OP or the person who took over, will decide who gets the credit. If someone makes too much of a fuss, perhaps they can talk to a DR mod and the mod can sort through whether or not it's enough to be credible. Even TJ himself could say whether something or not was enough to be worthy of concept note, if he takes to this idea. But that should only be for those where many different people are putting in ideas at once, as you and some others were having concerns over.

 

^^ Bullet points are always good.

[~!~]

Why not just let the artists decide which of the conceptors get credit? There are concrete, tangible ways to tell which artists get credit and which don't--in most threads, it should be a no-brainer for them to decide who gets credit and who doesn't. There would have to be some general guidelines given to keep things uniform, maybe give some examples in a sticky. That would just be to prevent one artist from giving conceptor credits to anybody who posted in the thread and another from giving credit to nobody at all.

 

EDIT: flipping s

 

'Nother EDIT: Like with the Twin Royals. We would pretty much say to Munin: "OK, who do you think gets credit" and she'd probably say me, at least... don't remember who else contributed to that thread But I could go back and look at it and see who helped with it.

Edited November 7, 2011 by ~!~

[hazeh]

Hm. As long as it isn't the artist picking and choosing and that the artist is in collaboration with the OP/person in charge (if separate from the artist), then I think that's a rather acceptable idea.

[Lythiaren]

I agree with ^

[Dolphinsong]

'Nother EDIT: Like with the Twin Royals. We would pretty much say to Munin: "OK, who do you think gets credit" and she'd probably say me, at least... don't remember who else contributed to that thread But I could go back and look at it and see who helped with it.

Actually I contribuited slightly with a few sketches before Munin popped in (i think), mainly the design of the dragon's horns which Munin did something quite similier to on the female sketch. Wouldn't know if it would be considered enough to get credit or not in my honest opinion.

[hazeh]

Actually I contribuited slightly with a few sketches before Munin popped in (i think), mainly the design of the dragon's horns which Munin did something quite similier to on the female sketch. Wouldn't know if it would be considered enough to get credit or not in my honest opinion.

Well, as someone in this position, do you think that those physical design traits contribute enough to that dragon to be considered a significant part of it? Would you think someone in your position for a different dragon had contributed a significant idea to the dragon breed to be able to lay claim to it?

[~!~]

Actually I contribuited slightly with a few sketches before Munin popped in (i think), mainly the design of the dragon's horns which Munin did something quite similier to on the female sketch. Wouldn't know if it would be considered enough to get credit or not in my honest opinion.

I guess only Munin knows if she pulled the horn design from your sketch or not. *shrug* But that sort of thing is exactly what I'm talking about with having the artist make the call.

[Lythiaren]

Yep, that's where I find the gray area lies. If someone presents an idea and it gets used, how do you know if the person doing the concept/art used that idea because you suggested it, rather than reaching that idea on their own? I mean, people can misremember things and the less savory among us may even lie about it. :x

[Dolphinsong]

Indeed, I was surprised when the female sketch came out that she had horns similier to what my sketch has (granted only 2 spikes instead of 4 but it is similier as the male sketch and sprite only has the single set). In the case of the horn design, it would be the artist who decides.

[ParticleSoup]

Another easy solution?

 

if Teej doesn't want to mention concepters in the Cave itself, why not just add it to the Dragon's Wiki page? all dragons have their own page, which are publicly accessible, with the artists who worked on them listed. the person/people who concepted it can simply edit their information in themselves if they wanted to

 

ETA: was this page brought up at all? http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=2322389 (6th post down if it doesnt automatically go there)

Edited November 7, 2011 by ParticleSoup

[kerrikins]

Another easy solution?

 

if Teej doesn't want to mention concepters in the Cave itself, why not just add it to the Dragon's Wiki page? all dragons have their own page, which are publicly accessible, with the artists who worked on them listed. the person/people who concepted it can simply edit their information in themselves if they wanted to

Eh, I don't like that idea at all.

 

For one thing, it doesn't solve the problem - the Conceptors want to be listed on the Cave, not mentioned on a page offsite.

 

Second, that doesn't solve the problem of people claiming credit and other people potentially thinking that it's not right.

 

 

I really don't see the problem with this. I think the artists and conceptors can discuss it on the thread, and then if there's debate, it can be be left up to TJ to decide if/when the sprite is put into the cave who should get credit for the idea.

[Lythiaren]

Yyyeah the problem with listing those on the wiki is that anyone can sneak their name in wherever they feel like and claim they have power over something they don't.

[Fuzzbucket]

Edit: Everyone who posts after me should start their post with a smily face : D

as requested

 

OK.

 

So.

 

Revolutionary idea which would keep any drama to a VERY SMALL GROUP.

 

I think MOST here - posting or not - some of my friends have been watching this thread with horrified fascination but not chipping in !! - agree that we would like to know who had the idea in the first place; how far to take that seems to be the real issue here.

 

When a dragon is listed as completed, how's about everyone who contributed to its thread gets together and decides who gets credited and who does not. Like, I chipped into one once, I think (I may have deleted later) because I thought the current sprite shown looked as though it had a broken leg. No way would I expect credit for that, and I would expect to be bolloxed if I asked for it. But surely the people who worked on the dragon can agree among themselves (in private by PM so we don't get to join in and make it hell for everyone) and the rest of us can stay out of it ?

 

ETA of course, this assumes that TJ chooses to allow conceptors to be credited anyway; I do realise that.

 

Peace to the world and unto the cave, and it's nearly Christmas, the time of giving, and that

Edited November 7, 2011 by fuzzbucket

[Lythiaren]

That's the most amicable solution, yes. Assuming everyone is mature and reasonable about it. :3

 

Then we'd just have to figure out who did what for existing things. Some are easy. Others not so much. :x

[Fuzzbucket]

That's the most amicable solution, yes. Assuming everyone is mature and reasonable about it. :3

 

Then we'd just have to figure out who did what for existing things. Some are easy. Others not so much. :x

Maybe it isn't that easy to go back. I don't know. But - if people are awkward - there is such a thing as majority voting. Tough - but a solution. At least you won't get the whole forum able to scream: BUT SHE SAID ITS LEG WAS BROKEN, no FAAAAAAAAIR.....

[hazeh]

I don't see why the OP/Leader and the Artist couldn't talk over PM, and then speak to others they thought should have potential courtesy credit for the breed. :B

[Dolphinsong]

How is this. Again TJ still decides who gets concept credit blah blah blah. In the threads that are about to move to completed section (or there already) At the bottom of the OP there is a list made of everone that helped out and beside each name, what said person helped out with. This way its all in text exactically stating how each person helped with the concept. Then TJ and go through said list and pick out those who were signifiant in creating the breed from those that did very minor additions.

[stogucheme]

How is this. Again TJ still decides who gets concept credit blah blah blah. In the threads that are about to move to completed section (or there already) At the bottom of the OP there is a list made of everone that helped out and beside each name, what said person helped out with. This way its all in text exactically stating how each person helped with the concept. Then TJ and go through said list and pick out those who were signifiant in creating the breed from those that did very minor additions.

I love that way! I would totally support that.

[Dolphinsong]

Reason I suggested that way is to prevent people bickering with one another on who did enough to be worthy of credit. If they personally feel they should of gotten credit after TJ made his choices, they would have to take it up with him personally.