Posted November 7, 2011 I like that a lot. Absolutely perfect, Dolph =) Thank you! Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Now we have a way of going about this and only a few peopke are against it. I'm glad this could be figured out. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 First of all, I want to state that the poll is faulty. Even though I'm not in favor of conceptor credits, it's not (mainly) because I think conceptors don't deserve credit, but because I'm afraid of where this might lead. What would you consider unfair about how I've defined the conceptor so far? According to the way people argue, if someone suggested "Let's make a tree dragon!", and later on, some kind of woody dragon with branch-like arms and a leaf-like mane would be released into the cave, the "original conceptor" might get credit for this one sentence, even though it's not even original, and other people will have worked out the details of how the dragon looked, moved, lived and procreated. How the HECK do you try and figure out BSA's and whatnot? @_@ The whole thing sends me into a tailspin. If the breed is well put together I imagine all five conceptors would have come to an agreement or at least laid out what the breed is or is not. What if you and TJ had co-concepted the vines, and TJ would agree that they could use nurture on hatchlings (if raised in captivity, eg a scroll) despite being volatile beasts? I don't think you'd be able to agree on something easily. For the gray area, I've just kind of had the thought that whomever is in charge of the concept, be it the OP or the person who took over, will decide who gets the credit. If someone makes too much of a fuss, perhaps they can talk to a DR mod and the mod can sort through whether or not it's enough to be credible. Even TJ himself could say whether something or not was enough to be worthy of concept note, if he takes to this idea. All this fuss, probable drama and work for mods and TJ alike - all for a little conceptor credit? And who is going to set up guidelines for the mods to judge on? if Teej doesn't want to mention concepters in the Cave itself, why not just add it to the Dragon's Wiki page? all dragons have their own page, which are publicly accessible, with the artists who worked on them listed. the person/people who concepted it can simply edit their information in themselves if they wanted to That's the best idea I've seen so far, and it actually has my vote. *looks angrily at incomplete poll* For one thing, it doesn't solve the problem - the Conceptors want to be listed on the Cave, not mentioned on a page offsite. And that's the problem. People might want to be credited for seeing their name on the site. Yyyeah the problem with listing those on the wiki is that anyone can sneak their name in wherever they feel like and claim they have power over something they don't. Oops, didn't think of that. *removes approval from before* That's the most amicable solution, yes. Assuming everyone is mature and reasonable about it. :3 And how many people here are all of that? How is this. Again TJ still decides who gets concept credit blah blah blah. In the threads that are about to move to completed section (or there already) At the bottom of the OP there is a list made of everone that helped out and beside each name, what said person helped out with. This way its all in text exactically stating how each person helped with the concept. Then TJ and go through said list and pick out those who were signifiant in creating the breed from those that did very minor additions. I still doubt it would work. People will still argue about it, as they might disagree on who did what or how much of what. Plus, it would mean much more work for TJ and/or the mods. (Reading who did what, verifying it in the thread and so on.) Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Why would it be a lot of work? If the list of people is in the thread and considering how often a dragon actually gets released, why would this be a such a hassle to do? And how is the poll faulty? What is so wrong with conceptors wanting credit? As fo ryour bit about the tree dragon, unless they were the conceptor how is that even a factor? You make it sound like we're trying to get credit for anyone who thought of anything close to a breed that makes it in cave. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Honestly, I don't think anyone can rightly judge what the drama issue is going to be like until the idea is given a try. I highly doubt there would be a lot of bickering if we have it set out to Dolph's plan just because a good majority of people here *are* mature and generous. As a conceptor, I do want people to know that the Danglebottoms, the Woollies, and the Commons are of my ideas and creation. That they are unique to me because I was the one that came up with the idea and saw it through. I'm sure many other people would like that recognition for the dragons they took the time to come up with. It's not necessary, no, and there's no legal obligation. But it would be nice and make a lot more sense than what is going on now. The worry about the "drama" should be put aside until there's reason to believe it's going to be too much of a hassle- i.e., until there's proof that it is, if TJ decides to implement this. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 I think the mere fact that the necessary amount of contribution for concept credit shows that there will be drama. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Honestly, I don't think anyone can rightly judge what the drama issue is going to be like until the idea is given a try. I highly doubt there would be a lot of bickering if we have it set out to Dolph's plan just because a good majority of people here *are* mature and generous. As a conceptor, I do want people to know that the Danglebottoms, the Woollies, and the Commons are of my ideas and creation. That they are unique to me because I was the one that came up with the idea and saw it through. I'm sure many other people would like that recognition for the dragons they took the time to come up with. It's not necessary, no, and there's no legal obligation. But it would be nice and make a lot more sense than what is going on now. The worry about the "drama" should be put aside until there's reason to believe it's going to be too much of a hassle- i.e., until there's proof that it is, if TJ decides to implement this. Give conceptors the credit they deserve it's been my struggle since I got myself in Dragon Requests. DR gave me the idea that: "I'm not a pixel artist.I'm just a good drawer and conceptor,but in the end it will be the artist that will step on me and get all the credits and appreciation". This happen to me in one of my dragons.Some artists arrived to my concept,offered they art and then "Oh,I deserve an Alt sprite for this" or "Don't touch my dragon!" This is just stupid,and I just left DRs because I just don't have patience to deal with arrogance.I think TJ should credit the conceptors as he does with the artists. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 That's not how it works. After all, how many breeds get artist's alts, anyway? I think there're 4 breeds so far. Big issue. Also, as long as you're only working on the concept and not fiddling with art you didn't create, there is no way the artist can tell you what to do. And, quite frankly, I've dealt with the arrogance issue the other way round. Believe it or not, it happens. So, what do you suggest? An "I dealt with arrogance" badge on the forum? Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Actually Ferus, the poll is faulty. The language of the initial question is prejudicial. That is, it starts with the premise that people who make a dragon concept are somehow owed credit, as if it's established fact. Actually, even through all the debate in the topic, it is not established as fact that they are owed anything. The wording of the options in the poll furthers the prejudice of the poll. One can say, in essence, "yes, since they deserve it, they should get it" or "no, I don't care if they deserve it, I don' wanna give it to them" (which sounds selfish and mean) or they can indicate that they're wishy-washy and can't make up their minds. There is no option to indicate a different take on this than that. A properly worded poll would not influence people in either direction. Even something like: "Do you think it would be a good idea for people to have credit for making dragon concepts listed somewhere on the game site? []Yes, they should be given some acknowledgement for coming up with the idea of the dragon []No, I don't think this is a good idea []I have reservations about implementing such an idea and will discuss it in the thread. []I have no opinion" would be less prejudicial. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Aaaand we're back to the thinly veiled insults and bickering! Thank you very much. ... I'm sorry, but really? Olympe: I think Alexiel's problem was that the artist acted like everything was theirs, rather than just the sprite. Fiona_Bluefire: Yes, it's faulty, but yours is also faulty. You don't acknowledge that some do not think conceptors deserve any credit. Add in that option and you're good. All in all, let's try out Dolphinsong's system before with totally kill the thread. If you have problems with the system, make suggestions to improve, not kill, the thread. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) ;n; That's not how I intended the poll... But I suppose I can ask a mod to change it? How's this? Should conceptors be given the courtesy of being credited for their work on site? -Yes, they deserve to be acknowledged and known for the dragons they create. -No, this idea has too many problems. -No, they don't deserve to be acknowledged. -I don't care either way. I love everyone here let's all be friends, yes? ;n; Edited November 7, 2011 by Shiny Hazard Sign Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) ;n; That's not how I intended the poll... But I suppose I can ask a mod to change it? How's this? Should conceptors be given the courtesy of being credited for their work on site? -Yes, they deserve to be acknowledged and known for the dragons they create. -No, this idea has too many problems. -No, they don't deserve to be acknowledged. -I don't care either way. I love everyone here let's all be friends, yes? ;n; Add in a maybe option please? Grr...fine. Edited November 7, 2011 by stogucheme Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Maybe is reminiscent of "I don't care" and doesn't help at all, just like the latter :B I'd rather keep the vague options to a minimum. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Maybe is reminiscent of "I don't care" and doesn't help at all, just like the latter :B I'd rather keep the vague options to a minimum. I meant more: I don't care Maybe with modifications There's a huge difference there. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 A "maybe" idea would be a good idea in there. Perhaps with a "Maybe. I have reservations I'll post in the thread." or something. Yes, you're right, there should be an option to say they don't think credit should be given anywhere. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible, and didn't think through all the options carefully enough. I like the way Haze worded it there. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Don't know why change the poll will be changing something; the "Yes,of course" is winning. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Don't know why change the poll will be changing something; the "Yes,of course" is winning. People might not be choosing the 'no' option for fear of seeming "selfish credit-stealers." Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 People might not be choosing the 'no' option for fear of seeming "selfish credit-stealers." But, the poll is completely anonymous, so nobody would know... Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 But, the poll is completely anonymous, so nobody would know... So is the voting for presidential elections in the US, but that didn't stop peer pressure. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) What if you and TJ had co-concepted the vines, and TJ would agree that they could use nurture on hatchlings (if raised in captivity, eg a scroll) despite being volatile beasts? I don't think you'd be able to agree on something easily. Oh I'd bicker about it, not gonna lie. But an agreement can be reached if all parties involved communicate. Using the vine example (and assuming for the sake of the example that "TJ" is not the admin, since that's a special case due to "he's the admin" powers), I'd ask him how the typical vine would suppress the genetic predisposition to viciousness, and how they would overcome their selfish nature to the point of helping someone else. Particularly in the case of hatchlings which may or may not be seen as edible. I'd assume he'd have answers ready for me based on their characteristics which we would have hashed out during the development process, and I'd be countering those and so on until an agreement is reached. Yes, there will be initial disagreement but the solution lies in discussion. And assuming both parties have equal parts of involvement in the creation of the dragon, neither side would be able to just say "but it's mine and I said so!!", because it would be countered by "it's mine too!", so both sides would be forced to actually talk it out. Give conceptors the credit they deserve it's been my struggle since I got myself in Dragon Requests. DR gave me the idea that: "I'm not a pixel artist.I'm just a good drawer and conceptor,but in the end it will be the artist that will step on me and get all the credits and appreciation". This happen to me in one of my dragons.Some artists arrived to my concept,offered they art and then "Oh,I deserve an Alt sprite for this" or "Don't touch my dragon!" This is just stupid,and I just left DRs because I just don't have patience to deal with arrogance.I think TJ should credit the conceptors as he does with the artists. That sounds like a problem between you and those artists. If you're active in the process, the moment someone tries to claim your concept as their dragon, that's when you need to put your foot down, say "Excuse me? Your dragon? Who's running the show here?", and start putting people on the chopping block if they continue. Yes, it will delay the project but in the long run it protects you as the creator. I mean, if you just up and leave, then you've let them win. You've given them the concept and any leverage you once had. And on the subject of spriter alts, it should be noted that those are only ever given out in very special circumstances like holiday LE breeds and tinsels. So if someone says they deserve a spriter alt for a mundane release, you can tell them that's not up to them to decide and they can shut up. Edited November 7, 2011 by Lythiaren Share this post Link to post
Posted November 7, 2011 Don't know why change the poll will be changing something; the "Yes, of course" is winning. Because people like me - who'd like to opt for no, but very different reasons than "they don't deserve it" - might not vote. I certainly didn't. To sum up my opinion: The conceptors deserve credit if... they come up with a (mostly) unique kind of dragon... provide enough information on looks and behavior (and probably breeding, if necessary) to make their dragons special/unique and give the artists something to work with... and work alongside "their" artists to improve the sprite (and be it only through concrit, keeping the OP updated and deciding what is to be done when and by whom). In my humble opinion, in our DR, the conceptor is not just the person who envisions a new breed, but who also organizes the process of its creation. However, I see several problems with this: What about people who just pop into DR, say something like "Let's make a tree dragon!" and leave, never to be seen again? (I don't think they deserve any credit at all, to be honest.) So, where does a credit-worthy contribution start? What about other kinds of contributions that might take just as long and be just as original, like spriting elaborate eggs that do not use any of shading styles already in existence? What about descriptions or custom cracking sequences? How are you going to prevent drama among the users and/or adding to the workload of TJ and the mods? Unless all of these questions are answered, I don't think it's a good idea to implement another kind of credit, or we will have unwanted and unnecessary drama at our hands. @Lyth: I'd assume he'd have answers ready for me based on their characteristics which we would have hashed out during the development process, and I'd be countering those and so on until an agreement is reached. Knowing you, I'd say that the agreement would entail the vines not being of the nurturing kind at all. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 8, 2011 [*]What about people who just pop into DR, say something like "Let's make a tree dragon!" and leave, never to be seen again? (I don't think they deserve any credit at all, to be honest.) We already had a seranio discuessed in here that entailed just that. I used the example of the Neotropical's (granted the OP only gave us a sketch nothing else) which is quite similie to 'Let's make a tree dragon!" In that seranio the OP only got sketch credits nothing else while concept credits went to Jazi and me. Share this post Link to post
Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) @Lyth: Knowing you, I'd say that the agreement would entail the vines not being of the nurturing kind at all. At the moment yes, but it would be different if there was another conceptor involved with designing the breed. But yes, you're right under the current circumstances. Until TJ says "Hey Lyth you're wrong about x" I continue to ramble and stick rigidly to the onsite "they're violent jerkbutts" description. |D Edited November 8, 2011 by Lythiaren Share this post Link to post
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