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hazeh

ANSWERED:Give Concept Creators Credit In-Site

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Because people like me - who'd like to opt for no, but very different reasons than "they don't deserve it" - might not vote. I certainly didn't.

 

To sum up my opinion:

The conceptors deserve credit if...

  • they come up with a (mostly) unique kind of dragon...
  • provide enough information on looks and behavior (and probably breeding, if necessary) to make their dragons special/unique and give the artists something to work with...
  • and work alongside "their" artists to improve the sprite (and be it only through concrit, keeping the OP updated and deciding what is to be done when and by whom).
In my humble opinion, in our DR, the conceptor is not just the person who envisions a new breed, but who also organizes the process of its creation.

 

However, I see several problems with this:

  • What about people who just pop into DR, say something like "Let's make a tree dragon!" and leave, never to be seen again? (I don't think they deserve any credit at all, to be honest.)
  • So, where does a credit-worthy contribution start?
  • What about other kinds of contributions that might take just as long and be just as original, like spriting elaborate eggs that do not use any of shading styles already in existence? What about descriptions or custom cracking sequences?
  • How are you going to prevent drama among the users and/or adding to the workload of TJ and the mods?
Unless all of these questions are answered, I don't think it's a good idea to implement another kind of credit, or we will have unwanted and unnecessary drama at our hands.

 

 

@Lyth: Knowing you, I'd say that the agreement would entail the vines not being of the nurturing kind at all. tongue.gif

I was under the impression that the mods never accepted anything under a paragraph, period. Wouldn't that solve your 'let's make a tree dragon' scenario? Also, what Dolphinsong wrote.

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"Let's make a tree dragon!" has absolutely no direction. That's not a dragon concept, that's... an idea. A passing thought.

 

A concept dragon is a dragon breed that has its attributes laid out and organized that make it a unique dragon from all the rest. The conceptor is the person or persons who define the major points behind that.

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Haze, didn't you say a couple days ago that a person deserves credit even for just making a thread, because that thread spurred the idea? As in my example of the girl a few years ago, who just slapped the "dragon" label on random words/objects/stereotypes? I refer to this post:

 

In both cases, if a request is finished, then yes. I do believe those original people get credit. Why? Because it was their idea that spurred the other people into working or finishing a concept. If they took up the project from someone else's idea that wasn't finished, then they're still basing it off of someone else's idea.

 

Now, if say someone made a Rogue dragon or whatever but it wasted away into nothing, and then sometime later someone else made a similar request that was not as a continuation of the first, then no, the first person does not get credit. I'm aware this might sound confusing, but this is where the idea of dupes comes in. If the dragon that was finished does not tie back to the first person who suggested it, then that person does not get credit.

And more than one person can get the credit. The OP may not be the only person to be considered the conceptor if someone else picked up the slack.

In which you mention that both cases (thread where the OP left and someone else took over much later, and the second being... let's just call her "shotgun girl") should credit the person who made the thread even if their original idea doesn't get anywhere, as long as it's in that same thread or deemed a continuation of the old thread.

Edited by Lythiaren

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stogucheme, that didn't used to be the case. Things have changed significantly. However, some of those "let's make a tree dragon" threads did result in completed requests.

 

I think that's one of the reasons this idea gets so complicated, no? The way Requests are handled now makes it more clear who came up with the details of the breed, but a lot of those older dragon requests are still floating around.

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stogucheme, that didn't used to be the case. Things have changed significantly. However, some of those "let's make a tree dragon" threads did result in completed requests.

 

I think that's one of the reasons this idea gets so complicated, no? The way Requests are handled now makes it more clear who came up with the details of the breed, but a lot of those older dragon requests are still floating around.

What if a trial run is done with just new (and clearer) requests, then we try to sort out the old ones?

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I feel like it's fair enough to just credit everybody who TJ/the spriters think should get credit for now, then if they ever come back and say "hey I deserve credit" deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

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The poll is quite, erm, inflammatory. I nulled my vote because none of the choices were what I would have picked.

 

There should a "Yes, but with guidelines" and a "No, but with guidelines" option. I don't think anyone out there is going to say, "You guys suck and you don't deserve any credit!" and that's sort of what the current "No" choice implies.

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The poll is quite, erm, inflammatory. I nulled my vote because none of the choices were what I would have picked.

 

There should a "Yes, but with guidelines" and a "No, but with guidelines" option. I don't think anyone out there is going to say, "You guys suck and you don't deserve any credit!" and that's sort of what the current "No" choice implies.

Whether or not conceptors deserve credit is something that is being debated by some, so it should remain a choice, in my opinion.

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You see, I can see why this would bring up problems.

 

For me, its not much of a question of whether the artists do more work- as a conceptor whose tried spriting, I know the latter is much harder. That being said, I don't think that invalidates the work that conceptors do put in; coming up with the concept, writing the description, coming up with extra information about physique and behavior which influences artist interpretation, filtering which art is used or not, keeping control of the thread...

 

The problem, I think, isn't stemming from that. Most would probably agree that that deserves credit. The problem arises that not everyone puts in that work, and its difficult to draw a line with 'who deserves it'. If you just make a thread and run, do you get it? Etc, etc, its been discussed quite a lot.

 

The obvious answer is a case-by-case basis, but I understand that TJ probably doesn't have time, or in some cases, the knowledge (because sometimes you need to be there as a concept unfolds) to tell that. I'd say it would probably be better to have a mod/the thread/ or cases where the OP came up with the concept and kept it updated would be easiest to do, but there will probably still be complications.

 

That said, I still think this is a good idea.

- It would allow people who were curious to know who came up with the idea. This wouldn't even need to be on-site: maybe just a list on the forum. Useful for inquiries about BSA and fanart and the like.

- It would just be nice. Speaking on a selfish note, I feel a deep sense of pride for the dragons I've created. It makes me smile each time I see a BBW in the cave.

 

(On a slightly off-topic note, I do think that the poll is slightly inflammatory, and more options might be nice)

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Haze, didn't you say a couple days ago that a person deserves credit even for just making a thread, because that thread spurred the idea? As in my example of the girl a few years ago, who just slapped the "dragon" label on random words/objects/stereotypes? I refer to this post:

 

 

In which you mention that both cases (thread where the OP left and someone else took over much later, and the second being... let's just call her "shotgun girl") should credit the person who made the thread even if their original idea doesn't get anywhere, as long as it's in that same thread or deemed a continuation of the old thread.

Hm, yes, I realize that sounds rather contradicting on my part. But I swear there's a distinction in my head x)

 

I personally have never come across a concept that has been "Let's make a tree dragon!" and left it at that. Similar, maybe, but there's always been SOMETHING to make it somewhat unique to itself and idea. Just saying "tree dragon" isn't anymore unique than saying "yin yang dragon" and leaving it completely at that before ditching the concept right after.

 

The girl example you used... to me, that's a bit different. The words she may have picked could have been random and mismatched or whatnot, but they at least had some sense of direction. I mean, I don't know anything more about from what you've told me, but "red hornet dragon" sounds a little more directional than "tree".

 

I think that the idea that was unique enough to have others follow suit and create from it should be credited, such as "red hornet dragon" that someone could later elaborate on, but only if the OP gave that some sort of direction. "Red hornet" may not be much more narrow than other ideas, but to me it's more specified and unique than "tree".

 

Did I make sense? ;A;

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I think it would be fairly easy to make all involved happy if the qualifications for 'conceptors' were clearly listed somewhere. A simple 'You must do the following things in order to be listed as a Cave Conceptor' would suffice.

 

Then the question becomes whether or not all concepts have to have that much information to be considered as full suggestions, or whether someone can make a suggestion with less with the understanding that then they cannot be listed as 'Conceptor'.

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I think it would be fairly easy to make all involved happy if the qualifications for 'conceptors' were clearly listed somewhere. A simple 'You must do the following things in order to be listed as a Cave Conceptor' would suffice.

 

Then the question becomes whether or not all concepts have to have that much information to be considered as full suggestions, or whether someone can make a suggestion with less with the understanding that then they cannot be listed as 'Conceptor'.

I like that. If TJ and the mods could do some sort of quick collab to agree what might be the guidelines or criteria to be considered eligible for concept credit, I think a lot of the supposed "drama" would decrease significantly.

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Derp derp.

 

~

 

Also, I think it's odd to be so nitpicky over concepts when we're not so nitpicky over the art. Anyone who made a significant contribution in fleshing out the dragon. Nowadays that's most likely going to be just the OP, or sometimes the OP worked with someone on the first post but only one of them could post it. =p

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Thanks Sock : D Now to get that moved over to the site..~ 8D

 

So, how did the mods figure out who to list? Or did they just pick the original poster?

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The ones that are up are people who I know who were OPs or who have popped into the BSA section to speak as the conceptor. Missing ones are from topics I haven't looked at yet mostly because of length of the topic and because the OP is something like "stripes are cool. true story, bro" and some are missing because they're dragons from topics that no longer exist because they were back when sprite replacement was going on. o3o

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So.... I suppose those ones just remain blank? o3o No one steps in about BSAs then if the breed is suggested?

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I would love to get them all filled out but I'll need help for the older ones. I don't have time to go through longer topics right now, but I'll find the time sometime. This doesn't mean that the conceptor will step into the BSA section. One conceptor I have up only has three posts remaining and hasn't posted in forever, for example.

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Well, I meant, who steps in to talk for the breed if the conceptor is no longer there or if no one knows who they've been created by?

 

I would help you if I could ;A;

 

Now, if that list was to make a shift over to the Cave, I think it would be okay to leave the "Original Idea by: [unknown]" or blank until we can figure out something, or if TJ explicitly states there's no point.

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Hm, yes, I realize that sounds rather contradicting on my part. But I swear there's a distinction in my head x)

 

I personally have never come across a concept that has been "Let's make a tree dragon!" and left it at that. Similar, maybe, but there's always been SOMETHING to make it somewhat unique to itself and idea. Just saying "tree dragon" isn't anymore unique than saying "yin yang dragon" and leaving it completely at that before ditching the concept right after.

 

The girl example you used... to me, that's a bit different. The words she may have picked could have been random and mismatched or whatnot, but they at least had some sense of direction. I mean, I don't know anything more about from what you've told me, but "red hornet dragon" sounds a little more directional than "tree".

 

I think that the idea that was unique enough to have others follow suit and create from it should be credited, such as "red hornet dragon" that someone could later elaborate on, but only if the OP gave that some sort of direction. "Red hornet" may not be much more narrow than other ideas, but to me it's more specified and unique than "tree".

 

Did I make sense? ;A;

lol, you want examples?

 

"I think there should be a cake dragon like it should be made of cake"

"There should be a spaghetti dragon but I don't know what it would look like"

"There should be a goth dragon with eyeliner and lipstick and neck spikes"

"There should be a rastafarian dragon, it would be human like with a tye die shirt and a guitar"

 

That was literally all the OP in each thread said. I only remember this because I recall half of DR doing a massive simultaneous double facepalm upon seeing each. Like really, I... wasn't exaggerating when I said it looked like she was slapping the dragon label on anything. XD

Edited by Lythiaren

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I'm rolling with laughter here. smile.gif Can't we combine the spaghetti dragon and the rastafarian dragon into a pastafarian dragon? xd.png

 

Although a "rastafarian dragon" could be cool, but it would have to be very different. (rasta-like mane, body colored like the tie-dyed shirts... You get my drift.) /off-topicness

 

 

Anyway, being highly interested in all kinds of animals, it's totally easy for me to come up with a reasonable background for any kind of dragon - be it where they live, how they live and how they interact, what they feed upon, about their breeding habits (and mechanics) and I don't know what else, and I feel that the guidelines for Dr are more of an exercise in futility than actual work on the concept. But that's just my personal take on things, and I don't doubt that other people will have a harder time coming up with this kind of stuff.

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The only ones this would ever apply to are ones that actually make it in-cave. Out of all the dragon requests, if someone makes an interesting enough concept to make it in-cave, they deserve credit. Those examples are all things that don't sound like anyone would be very interested in and probably wouldn't get in the cave.

 

At this point it sounds like you're just bringing up points that don't even apply to what we're trying to achieve here.

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I'm rolling with laughter here. smile.gif Can't we combine the spaghetti dragon and the rastafarian dragon into a pastafarian dragon? xd.png

I NEED a pastafarian dragon. I just wish I could think of enough to post a concept with ! The Great Spaghetti Monster would love it and look down upon us and...

 

GIMME !

 

Hmmmmm.... ninja.gif

 

Sorry - a FRACTION off topic. I do want conceptors to be credited. It is only fair. I am very sorry if there are some artists who don't agree. But without their conceptor - how did they know what to sprite ?

Edited by fuzzbucket

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lol, you want examples?

 

"I think there should be a cake dragon like it should be made of cake"

"There should be a spaghetti dragon but I don't know what it would look like"

"There should be a goth dragon with eyeliner and lipstick and neck spikes"

"There should be a rastafarian dragon, it would be human like with a tye die shirt and a guitar"

 

That was literally all the OP in each thread said. I only remember this because I recall half of DR doing a massive simultaneous double facepalm upon seeing each. Like really, I... wasn't exaggerating when I said it looked like she was slapping the dragon label on anything. xd.png

Out of those four, I think only the last two would get any ounce of credit. c: They're specific enough to warrant some kind of direction for a dragon, even if it is ridiculously vague and strange. The first two just give one idea that can be branched off into so many different things.

 

To me, a concept or a base concept takes an idea and expands it in some direction. If someone ended up making a gothic dragon with black eye rings and heavy spikes along its neck and collar, based off of what this person suggested, then yes, I do believe she gets credit. If she just says, "Hey, spaghetti dragon, do it" and then no longer contributes anything else, than I think that's a bit too vague to really receive any credit.

 

I know I'm drawing a very thin, faint line here, but that's pretty much my premise x) But I'm not saying that's all this idea is based on. With Dolph's idea and and I believe something you might have suggested, I think there would be enough input by others to discern whether or not the original idea should receive enough acknowledgment.

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This probably doesn't warrant a reply, as everybody ignores me when I post anyway. But whatever. Might as well say it.

 

Technically, they couldn't do that anyway. The mods say that they need a detailed description of what the dragon should look like, or at least a general direction with pictures explaining, points on their behavior/breeding patterns/eating/etc etc etc, and more. So those would never be validated...at least not NOW. So, technically, that's not a valid point.

 

"I think there should be a cake dragon like it should be made of cake"

Well, the mods and TJ don't like inanimate objects, at least without explanation. And paragraph above.

 

"There should be a spaghetti dragon but I don't know what it would look like"

Paragraph above. And that hasn't been specified if it's an inanimate object, or just a dragon covered in 'noodles' that resemble spaghetti. The latter actually wouldn't be too bad of an idea.

 

"There should be a goth dragon with eyeliner and lipstick and neck spikes"

Paragraph above. And I'm not sure if people wore that in medieval times. But, maybe they did. Who knows?

 

"There should be a rastafarian dragon, it would be human like with a tye die shirt and a guitar"

Tye dye shirts weren't invented in the medieval times (?), so it wouldn't be allowed. And unless dragons have posable thumb digits and sat on their hind legs, they wouldn't be able to play the guitar. And how would they come across a shirt and a guitar? And I just don't think this would be accepted unless it was a joke breed. And paragraph above.

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those were examples Lyth posted of a real person's REAL submissions, from the days before DR was closed, around '08 or early '09 i think. a lot of changes have been made. while it is true that none of those would ever have made it in cave, the current regulations we have now weren't quite in place back then

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