ANSWERED:Give Concept Creators Credit In-Site

[~!~]

I think there's a different factor involved. Because, if you look closely, you'll realize that the cave blockers are usually of grey(ish), green(ish) or brown coloration: storms, stones, guardians (blue-gray), nocturnes, water walkers, pebbles, neos, terraes (some of the time), canopies, frills (way back when), whiptails, spitfires... All of them have either a very unique concept or great art (or both), and yet they're blockers.

Sure, they have unique concepts, but not cool ones.

 

Also, in response to Haze: I don't think something should get credit or not based on how difficult it is, but rather how essential to the dragon it is. For instance, doing the colors is incredibly easy, but it's a critical component of what makes the dragon what it is. (See: Ariatei Dragons)

 

EDIT: I'm just going to add that I heard an artist on another forum once say something along the lines of "yeah, I'd like to propose a thread for them in DR, if I could only come up with a concept for them." Now, it may have been that they were referring to the amount of information required in DR, but it may also have been that she just didn't have the talent for that sort of thing.

Edited November 5, 2011 by ~!~

[hazeh]

 

Also, in response to Haze: I don't think something should get credit or not based on how difficult it is, but rather how essential to the dragon it is.  For instance, doing the colors is incredibly easy, but it's a critical component of what makes the dragon what it is.  (See: Ariatei Dragons)

I think that's what I was trying to say. x)

 

Edit: Oh, ack. My other post was about eggs, not the actual dragon sprite~

Edited November 5, 2011 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Fengari]

EDIT: I'm just going to add that I heard an artist on another forum once say something along the lines of "yeah, I'd like to propose a thread for them in DR, if I could only come up with a concept for them." Now, it may have been that they were referring to the amount of information required in DR, but it may also have been that she just didn't have the talent for that sort of thing.

Either way, they apparently missed the input of a conceptor, whether it was the work or the creativity, so that must mean that input has a value of its own?

[Syphoneira]

I have actually never been able to figure out why those who came up with the concept for dragons don't get credit.

 

Books, movies, art forms - I've seen examples in all of these areas of people stating that 'this/that/other was based on an idea/a book/a concept by...' and many authors give credit to people who have supplied even a vague outline of an idea/concept/character in a 'credits' section in the front of their books.

 

It's not really a question of whether copyright is legally possible, it's a question of truth and justice, to give credit where credit is due.

 

And in this instance, that particular dragon would never have been sprited without the concept being provided.

 

 

Also wanted to make the point that Blockers typically occur when there are already too many of a particular kind of dragon for their environment.

 

People who want them always figure they can get those easily later, because they're all over the place.

 

People who have enough of the sprite have enough of the sprite, yet such sprites continue to be produced at too-high levels for their particular niche.

 

However beautiful the sprite, anything that gets in people's way and prevents them from playing will likely accumulate negative connotations in peoples minds, so that some of the people who might have not minded getting more then begin to get sick of them on that account (not necessarily anything to do with the sprite itself) and may then no longer want any more at all, so the situation potentially snowballs and worsens.

 

People will often pick up something more difficult to obtain, given the chance, when they weren't really thinking of getting more at that time, because it may not be available at any point where they ever do need one.

 

But when they're stymied by what seems to be an endless and never-ending flood of various sprites they don't particularly hanker after, those sprites are more likely to be picked up for reasons other than those of personal game-play and/or reluctantly, if at all.

 

 

This is why competitions and 'hoard commons for rares' threads are required to help deal with these continuously unsustainable numbers produced of what have become 'unwanted' sprites.

[Lythiaren]

if it wasnt for the conceptors the daydreams, or terraes, or shallowaters, or trios, etc. wouldn't exist. so basically everyone's fav. dragons even in the in cave wouldnt ever have existed.

 

they deserve credit.

*ahem*

 

I'm everything for daydreams. Conceptor and artist, creator in every way. The only contributions by other people in their creation were shading crits and the fact that their clouds are not cotton candy pink, and even then it was my executive decision (and the fact that I refused to make a damn rainbow of cloud colours like one person had demanded) that made the clouds white instead. My name is on their pages enough times already.

 

But thanks for the thought.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Lythiaren

[hazeh]

*ahem*

 

I'm everything for daydreams. Conceptor and artist, creator in every way. The only contributions by other people in their creation were shading crits and the fact that their clouds are not cotton candy pink, and even then it was my executive decision (and the fact that I refused to make a damn rainbow of cloud colours like one person had demanded) that made the clouds white instead. My name is on their pages enough times already.

 

But thanks for the thought.

She probably didn't realize that artists can usually be the conceptor as well, but I understand what you're saying. Even still, would you not want to get concept credit for the daydream? Many people may look at the daydream and think, "Oh, Lyth did such pretty art. But I wonder who thought it up?" I know I've done the very same thing to my favorite dragon breeds, because I have no idea if the artists listed are the ones who originally planned the dragon out. It's just something nice to know.

If this was implemented, though, I don't see why you couldn't state you'd rather not have your name repeated again. Just like how some people ask not to get art credit for some of the things they do for sprites.

[Lythiaren]

Yeah I understand that but the thing is, each concept would have to be assessed on an individual basis since some ideas are very general.

 

I don't really care about my conceptor credits myself, to be honest. Yeah I helped bring something to life. Woo? If other people who pretty much built the whole breed from scratch want credit, I'm all for that. But if someone does something so general as to say "I think it should be brown" then I don't think that's worth mention.

[hazeh]

Would you want to get credit as the complete creator, instead of a partial creator, though?

 

 

Well, yes. Suggestions like that aren't exactly "breed defining" nor concept building. Many people may suggest color schemes if one hasn't been outright specified. A member named Ferus made an excellent example earlier in the thread- the Undine dragon. That dragon doesn't necessarily have a set color scheme yet, but pretty much everything else has been defined by Ferus, the conceptor. I did the sketch for the dragon which has been redlined and sprited. Yet, this is not my dragon. This is Ferus's dragon breed. The color scheme she decides is not a breed defining trait, or else she could have decided on it upon creating the breed by itself.

I am of the opinion if someone made a concept, a dragon based on an idea and given a guideline for a dragon breed, then they deserve credit for creating that breed. The credit for the art goes to the person or people who worked to give it a body. But since the dragons on DC aren't not solely defined by their art, the credit for the other half of the dragon should be given where it's due.

 

^^

[Lythiaren]

Well, of course Ferus should be credited with that work done. But what about other things like a single idea that just winds up in there? Like to use Dolph's example, if someone says "hey I think they should live in herds" and eventually that does get included, whether because of that suggestion or not? How do you determine if that was the result of the person's suggestion or simply a natural conclusion as part of the process? What if multiple people suggest something?

 

There's a lot of factors to consider, one of the most important being that many people want to be acknowledged for even the littlest thing, and will complain (loudly) if they aren't. I'm not one of those; I shrunk and (and fixed after shrinking) Nakase's S1 gold hatchling and I'm not credited on there at all, but I don't care. But other people would care about something like that. Would they get credit? I'll say right now it wasn't easy to fix all the distortion when I resized those hatchlings, but it... wasn't a major art contribution to be honest.

[Fuzzbucket]

Is "artwork by; gsdgjhreq; original idea by hucwoerq (with additional work from hbfuibvreq)" so tough to accept ? As someone said - even a short flash of inspiration like "hey, suppose we had..." can cause an awesome dragon to show up.

[stogucheme]

Well, of course Ferus should be credited with that work done. But what about other things like a single idea that just winds up in there? Like to use Dolph's example, if someone says "hey I think they should live in herds" and eventually that does get included, whether because of that suggestion or not? How do you determine if that was the result of the person's suggestion or simply a natural conclusion as part of the process? What if multiple people suggest something?

 

There's a lot of factors to consider, one of the most important being that many people want to be acknowledged for even the littlest thing, and will complain (loudly) if they aren't. I'm not one of those; I shrunk and (and fixed after shrinking) Nakase's S1 gold hatchling and I'm not credited on there at all, but I don't care. But other people would care about something like that. Would they get credit? I'll say right now it wasn't easy to fix all the distortion when I resized those hatchlings, but it... wasn't a major art contribution to be honest.

And that's why I've been stating throughout this whole thread that unless the contribution was major, you ain't getting credit.

 

Edited a breed description? Sorry, but unless you changed it significantly...

Redlined a sprite? Nope.

Gave crit? Nuh-uh.

Suggested that this breed fly backwards? That's nice for you.

 

Only major contributions, Lythiaren. Only major ones.

 

[JOTB]

What about instances where the OP makes a thread and then vanishes, leaving an artist to interpret and perhaps modify their idea without feedback? At what point does the idea become separate from the OP's, if it does diverge?

 

 

[stogucheme]

What about instances where the OP makes a thread and then vanishes, leaving an artist to interpret and perhaps modify their idea without feedback? At what point does the idea become separate from the OP's, if it does diverge?

If it were up to me, if the OP vanishes before sprites are made, (and not just in some kind of 'I had a family/medical emergency' type way), then they shouldn't get credit.

[BlueSkyy]

I dunno. I've always though it strange some conceptors never contribute any art toward their dragon. The least you could do is flippin' trace the parts you want from stock images and mash them together into a Franken-sketch and say, "Hey, I suck at drawing, but here's what I want this to look like. The art I referenced is property of blah-dee-blah." Even a crap-tastic Franken-sketch shows you tried.

 

Anyone can come up with ideas, honestly. We're all here because we like dragons and have some imagination. The spriters could come up with more ideas if they weren't so busy doing art for those of you who can't.

 

I think some people (not everyone here, mind you. Don't take this statement personally.) just want to see their name show up on a bunch of dragons' pages because they feel like they need some kinda of public recognition to feel better about themselves. Guess what? You should be helping develop a concept or a sprite because you WANT to HELP, not because you want your name in tiny black letters at the bottom of a page.

 

If you are going to come up with an idea but contribute 0 pieces of artwork, you're basically a commissioner. (Though in this case you're not paying the artist.) You're telling the artist what you want them to do for you. And commissioners don't get to post art on DA or other art sites and claim it as their own.

 

Also, this site is about the sprites. You don't post a dragon's description in your sig for other people to read and click on, you post the sprite.

 

Sorry if that was harsh/hard to read/made you mad, but that's how I feel.

[TwilightMoonDragon]

I also think that spriters aren't the only ones that should get the exclusive alts. Everyone that worked on the dragon should get the dragon...

[stogucheme]

I dunno. I've always though it strange some conceptors never contribute any art toward their dragon. The least you could do is flippin' trace the parts you want from stock images and mash them together into a Franken-sketch and say, "Hey, I suck at drawing, but here's what I want this to look like. The art I referenced is property of blah-dee-blah." Even a crap-tastic Franken-sketch shows you tried.

 

Anyone can come up with ideas, honestly. We're all here because we like dragons and have some imagination. The spriters could come up with more ideas if they weren't so busy doing art for those of you who can't.

 

I think some people (not everyone here, mind you. Don't take this statement personally.) just want to see their name show up on a bunch of dragons' pages because they feel like they need some kinda of public recognition to feel better about themselves. Guess what? You should be helping develop a concept or a sprite because you WANT to HELP, not because you want your name in tiny black letters at the bottom of a page.

 

If you are going to come up with an idea but contribute 0 pieces of artwork, you're basically a commissioner. (Though in this case you're not paying the artist.) You're telling the artist what you want them to do for you. And commissioners don't get to post art on DA or other art sites and claim it as their own.

 

Also, this site is about the sprites. You don't post a dragon's description in your sig for other people to read and click on, you post the sprite.

 

Sorry if that was harsh/hard to read/made you mad, but that's how I feel.

I made a physical description AND this doodle: http://i52.tinypic.com/157f8cz.png Sometimes that's all we can do.

 

But seriously, ask my friend. She'll tell you that if I tried drawing it, um...you don't want to know. Some people just can't draw. Some people just can't write. It's life. Claiming we don't do anything because we don't contribute art? Yeah, not cool.

 

Art is not the only contribution here. Let's not forget that. Because when we do, we've got us that ugly Us vs. Them fight again. (Check back a page or two for what I'm referencing.)

[kittygrl]

*ahem*

 

I'm everything for daydreams. Conceptor and artist, creator in every way. The only contributions by other people in their creation were shading crits and the fact that their clouds are not cotton candy pink, and even then it was my executive decision (and the fact that I refused to make a damn rainbow of cloud colours like one person had demanded) that made the clouds white instead. My name is on their pages enough times already.

 

But thanks for the thought.

sorry i didn't know of the initial creator because welllllll theres no conceptor credit.

i have 2 concepts in progress but im kinda of sad that i probably wont get credit in the end. i cant draw well at all or sprite (i have tried many many times. ill be lucky if i get a good pokemon recolor) just because we dont have good art on paper/pixel doesnt mean we dont put hard work in it. ive stuck with the feather tip til the end, saying yes or no, the leg looks odd, etc. just because i didnt draw or sprite doesn't mean im trying to help

[Stromboli]

Edited a breed description? Sorry, but unless you changed it significantly...

Hmm. Now here's one that's tricky.

 

There have been dragons that I've done significant work on the breed description for. I didn't help with any other part of the dragon, just popped in at the end to put the creator's list of descriptors into prose.

Even with entirely writing the official breed description, I do not feel that I contributed significantly to the dragon. Most of the time it was the work of ten minutes, and required little to no further involvement.

 

 

I would feel wrong accepting credit for writing the breed description. It'd make my ten minutes of typing look on par with the artists who put in hours of work on the art aspects, and the creator who's been with it from the beginning.

[Ferus]

I also think that spriters aren't the only ones that should get the exclusive alts. Everyone that worked on the dragon should get the dragon...

As for this, no. The spriter alts are the reward for the work put into the ART portion. As long as people know whose idea it was, I'm perfectly content. And stuff like this is what is going to cause this thread to not be taken seriously. It goes back to conceptors wanting special privileges. All this thread is about is conceptors getting a little recognition for the work they've done.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Ferus

[kittygrl]

im with ferus on that. i would love to have a spriters alt because im the conceptor but that work is entirely their own. they went out of their way to do that, so it should be exclusively theirs

[Stromboli]

I also think that spriters aren't the only ones that should get the exclusive alts. Everyone that worked on the dragon should get the dragon...

Meh. The impression I got from spriter's alts was that they were special little treats they got to make for themselves or each other for a job well done on a special dragon (Are there any spriter alts outside special release dragons?).

So unless I personally could've colored and shaded the alt, I don't think I would deserve it.

[BlueSkyy]

I'd like to know (if there's any way of finding out) how many current in-cave dragons even have "non-artistic" conceptors. That is, conceptors who didn't work on the sprite at all or contribute any sketches.

[stogucheme]

Hmm. Now here's one that's tricky.

 

There have been dragons that I've done significant work on the breed description for. I didn't help with any other part of the dragon, just popped in at the end to put the creator's list of descriptors into prose.

Even with entirely writing the official breed description, I do not feel that I contributed significantly to the dragon. Most of the time it was the work of ten minutes, and required little to no further involvement.

 

 

I would feel wrong accepting credit for writing the breed description. It'd make my ten minutes of typing look on par with the artists who put in hours of work on the art aspects, and the creator who's been with it from the beginning.

Sorry, should have put 'edited/made the breed description out of someone else's stuff that contributed significantly.'

 

Yeah, translations don't get credit.

 

As to everyone else:

Yes, I'd LOVE to have an alt. No, I don't think I should get it. I would like to have the child of an artist's alt, though... :greedy:

Maybe for the conceptors, you get to describe your dragon personally and the mods will review it immediately?

[Dr. Paine]

Sorry, should have put 'edited/made the breed description out of someone else's stuff that contributed significantly.'

 

Yeah, translations don't get credit.

 

As to everyone else:

Yes, I'd LOVE to have an alt. No, I don't think I should get it. I would like to have the child of an artist's alt, though... :greedy:

Maybe for the conceptors, you get to describe your dragon personally and the mods will review it immediately?

Someone proposed a theory that the conceptor/description writers would get an 'expanded' breed description, going in to far more detail about habitat, mating habits, etc. I'd like that way more than an alternate sprite.

[Ferus]

I'd like to know (if there's any way of finding out) how many current in-cave dragons even have "non-artistic" conceptors. That is, conceptors who didn't work on the sprite at all or contribute any sketches.

So you're saying that the only ones that will ever get in-cave are the ones made entirely by just an artist? And that there will NEVER be a single dragon in-cave that was thought up by someone who isn't an artist?

 

Again, I don't understand why people don't think conceptors deserve credit. Yes, it's true that everyone has an imagination but obviously not everything thought up something that TJ thought was worthy to go in cave. Why shouldn't they get credit for thinking up an interesting-enough idea to be in-cave out of all the other requests?

 

As for the art portion, I spoke to Haze before I ever posted my request and gave her what I wanted my dragon to look like. For my other concept, I made my own sketch to give an idea.

Now tell me, which of these is more likely to make it in cave? Even though my sketch was the best I could do?

Mine or Metalbeak's.

 

If I have an idea but lack the artistic ability to make anything beautiful out of it, why do I still not deserve credit for the idea? Does my lack of ability mean I don't deserve recognition for the rest of the breed?

 

 

Edited November 6, 2011 by Ferus