Religion

[Awdz]

Or maybe said teacher does not give an explanation to the story other than "the story says this" and fails to elaborate otherwise. You just have to have faith though! God has given someone a mind to use and now it’s being asked to be closed when it comes to religion? One has to understand what one is thinking, thinking critically not a bad thing. Usually this is said (You just need to have faith) when someone is stumped, it is more of a cop out. Or to put it more simply, they actually mean: “there’s no answer for that, I just believe it because I like it or it makes me feel good”.

I did not say, "You just have to have faith though." I said it was my faith, and I said it is healthy for folks to disagree. How are folks to understand differences or to see where to improve, if they do not think about it? Why do you assume I have not thought through things and wrestled with discrepancies (through both prayer and discussion) until I came to what I believe as a logical conclusion? Because I do not actually have all the answers? No one but God is omniscient.

 

Never said that everyone relationship with god was the same. I know everyone grew up with a story of how they came to the faith.

So, again, why doesn't god give a clear cut way to him rather than "playing with" the lives of those that didn't have anyone to preach to them about god for?

My thoughts on this are:

a ) For clear-cut, try following Jesus's teachings, as Jesus = God on earth.

b ) I'm not sure what you mean by "playing with". I believe God deals with each person individually based on their experiences and choices. I do not believe God condemns anyone for not having heard about God.

 

So then this goes back to people and their free will, them giving the choice to come to god or not.

 

According to this source, the number of people who have existed is 107,602,707,791. That's mind-boggling.

Now, I'm going to be very generous here. Let's assume that half of everyone went to heaven. That means, by default, that an equal half went to hell. That's over fifty billion souls, burning eternally.

If I remember correctly, "burn eternally" was the fate ascribed to demons and the fires themselves. For people who turn from God, there is mention of the refiner's fire - but to me that speaks of a transformation or destruction. We do not really know what God does with them.

 

And for what? Free will?

I ask you this: is free will worth it? I can only speak for myself, but if giving up my ability to make independent decisions meant that just one person would be spared that torment, I'd do it in a heart-beat.

And lets be honest here. God doesn't really want free will anyway. The Tower of Babel demonstrates that unequivocally. When we "choose" something that's displeasing, he intervenes and cheats.

That means that fifty billion people are burning for the illusion of choice, so that his "praises" are a little more convincing.

He created, and doomed, a sentient species just to get an ego boost. How could I justify following someone who seemed so needy and petty?

Again, you are making assumptions here about God's motives that I disagree are God's motives. Should an infant argue against learning to walk because of seeing toddlers fall down? And if the toddler heads toward mortal danger, should the parents not pick up the toddler and have the toddler travel in a safer direction? Or are they cheating on having the toddler walk independently?

 

We are not omniscient; I believe God is. Therefore, God has the perspective to determine the best methods for helping us learn. I do not see it as an "ego boost" at all.

 

Then there's the shear inefficiency of spreading the Gospel via humans. What about people in Africa who died the day after Jesus was crucified?

What was their sin? Being born in the wrong place? Not having internet?

Again, I believe God deals with each person individually based on their experiences and choices. I do not believe God condemns anyone for not having heard about God.

 

One thing I've not mentioned much in this discussion, is that in addition to giving us free will, God created us to be social - interactive and interdependent with one another. Sharing the Good News is an incredibly positive thing when done from honest joy rather than fearful duty. Our choices have consequences far beyond what we may think, and I suspect that one of the reasons for the way the Gospel has been spread is to help us to understand that.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Awdz Bodkins

[Princess_Pinkie]

dang. so much debate goin' on in here.

 

let's all just have a tea party and all that jazz.

 

i'm agnostic, myself...

 

[BlitzDrake]

Lol Pinky xP

 

And how was this religion spread previously? Scare tactics, murder, fear of having your clan killed so you converted to this religion? I would've converted to this religion in an instant if being pagan and the rest of my family was christian would result in all of us being killed. And also, what prevented other beliefs from spreading? By killing off nonbelievers and those that didn't follow "gods word". Usually, no justification is offered beyond the fact that since they were of another tribe, it was OK to kill them. It goes with out saying that the hordes of slaughtered children were innocent. (*Quick tip-If God was anti abortion he wouldn’t have ordered the murder of pregnant women and young children.

 

Nowadays since we can't kill them off christianity had "modernized" as well. Christianity has not gotten tolerant over the years; it has merely gotten smarter. You catch more flies with sugar than salt, and you get more converts with slick rhetoric and high-tech propaganda than you do with dungeon, fire, and sword. Who needs Grand Inquisitors when you have gone on-line and satellites broadcast your message worldwide? So Christian intolerance no longer wears the mask of the Inquisitor; it wears the "aw shucks" grin.

 

Kill all ‘a da people and burn the entire town if ONE person is not a Christian!

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.

 

Judges 21:10-24

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

not posting the rest, too long >_> In short Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These people killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil? God did nothing to stop this atrocity.

various other verses about killing

On another note, I've noticed god has also killed far more people than Satan has. God has killed millions, in his own hands How many people did God kill in the Bible?

It's impossible to say for sure, but plenty. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There's just no way to count them all.

But sometimes the Bible tells us exactly how many were killed by God. So what happens if you total all of these killings? What number do you get?

Well, here's what I came up with: 2,476,633 Le Killings

 

Satan has killed, what 7? From the bet god made about Job.

 

To sum up the argument so far, the Christian Bible if full of atrocities ordered or committed by God. Christianity produced St. Francis, but it also produced Grand Inquisitor Torquemada and the authors of Malleus Malleficarum, the witch-hunter's handbook. Today's Religious Right dreams of a golden age when we will truly have one nation under (their) God. History shows that a Holy Inquisition would be more likely than a golden age. Christianity has preached hatred, soaked the earth with blood, and filled the mind with supernatural terrors. It seems clear that my first point is established: A rational, conscientious person may doubt the beneficial effects of Christian preaching and practice. A pragmatic apologetic based on the alleged good effects of Christianity therefore fails.

Of course, many Christians are as appalled by the "holy horrors" of Christian history as I am. Some, such as the Episcopal Bishop of Newark, the Right Reverend Shelby Spong, are strong opponents of fundamentalism. Others, such as the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, have fought the good fight against the theocratic efforts of the Religious Right. Further, there is no doubt that many ordinary people have found strength and inspiration in their Christian faith.

Edited February 25, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[pudding]

I thoroughly enjoy LaVeyan Satanism. I mean, just look at these lovely rules:

 

Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

Do not harm little children.

Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

 

 

And their Satanic Sins are a lot more relevant to modern times. I really do enjoy the concept instead of casting the guy who killed 7 people as the bad guy and God as the good guy. God (Or the concept of him) always struck me as a major ass.

[HeatherMarie]

Now *those* rules are totally fair and easy to understand.

[BlitzDrake]

I thoroughly enjoy LaVeyan Satanism. I mean, just look at these lovely rules:

It all puts a different view of things for sure. I have a friend that goes by this, "JoyofSatan" website also has a lot of info and teachings about Satanism. It hardly even focuses on Satan being god's enemy really. More like it teaches about the self.

 

Also. Don't forget the Cardinal sins! xP

 

Stupidity

 

Solipsism

 

Self-deceit

 

Herd Conformity

 

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies

 

Counterproductive Pride

 

Lack of Aesthetics

 

 

[Awdz]

Now *those* rules are totally fair and easy to understand.

If you want rules that are simple and easy to understand, try the 10 commandments.

 

The Israelites had a lot of "what if" clauses that were debated (volumes of commentary around the Torah) to define the laws of living, until it became a tangled mess of rules that no one could actually manage to follow without help. There's a joke in there somewhere about Hebrews making good lawyers today because modern law is simplistic relative to those they study for worship.

 

From the Christian perspective, Jesus simplified our approach to living a lot, making it possible to have a true relationship with God again instead of being lost/overwhelmed in rules about living.

 

@ BlightWyvern

The historical rampages in the OT are not what Jesus taught about how folks should live. I really do not find your citing people's historical misinterpretations and self-serving false justifications (determined false as going against what Jesus taught) to be at all relevant to how an honest soul-searching study of the scriptures leads most folks to live.

 

You also talk about the numbers God has killed. Really, God made our bodies mortal, so by your definition shouldn't you include everyone who ever existed? Unless, of course, we start talking about the eternal spirit as the part that is truly alive - and what happened to those, we cannot even see from this world.

[7Deadly$ins]

So how do we reconcile Old Testament god with New Testament god?

[BlitzDrake]

If you want rules that are simple and easy to understand, try the 10 commandments.

 

The Israelites had a lot of "what if" clauses that were debated (volumes  commentary around the Torah) to define the laws of living, until it became a tangled mess of rules that no one could actually manage to follow without help.  There's a joke in there somewhere about Hebrews making good lawyers today because modern law is simplistic relative to those they study for worship.

 

 

@ BlightWyvern

The historical rampages in the OT are not what Jesus taught about how folks should live.  I really do not find your citing people's historical misinterpretations and self-serving false justifications (determined false as going against what Jesus taught) to be at all relevant.

Or maybe people shouldn't have to rely on a ancient book to get morals. I'd you need religion to guide you morally and can't figure out killing is wrong ON YOUR OWN or other similar things, that's terrifying. The Satanic commandments are more modern as stated earlier.

Or even this, people don't NEED the christan bible to have morals, there are other religions that say the same things. The bible, while you say it is the truth and right, other religiouns, the mainstream ones anyway, say the same thing. All claim they are right. So shouldn't

god have wanted his religion be set apart? What'd he do different that so many other "false" did? They all wrote with scrolls, all claimed to have heard god, all acted the same, granted some killed more than others

You say god is omnipotent, I say otherwise, from the reasons I've pointed out earlier.

 

Theres New testament stories involving god killing people too, DIRECTLY striking people down, not just kept in the old testament. The way I see it, I would never go back to worshipping a so called loving deiety when I see more hate, blood shed, and atrocities that by far cancel put any love. That and the contradictions of the bible. It hold zero water for me.

Edited February 26, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[philpot123]

So how do we reconcile Old Testament god with New Testament god?

They're the same.

 

What about people in Africa who died the day after Jesus was crucified?

What was their sin?

 

The same as any other person that's ever existed. Willful cosmic treason against their creator.

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (Romans 1:18-25, ESV)

 

I'd you need religion to guide you morally and can't figure out killing is wrong ON YOUR OWN or other similar things, that's terrifying.

 

Why is killing wrong?

[Kestra15]

The same as any other person that's ever existed. Willful cosmic treason against their creator.

Rather than quoting Scripture, can you explain this one in fifty words or less?

[philpot123]

Rather than quoting Scripture, can you explain this one in fifty words or less?

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

Edited February 25, 2014 by philpot123

[pudding]

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

Except they had no access to the Bible. Prior to being told religions existed, I had no idea what a god even was. Never once has this conversation occurred:

"Oh, hey there. It's me, God."

"Oh there's someone talking in my head."

"Nah bro, it's cool. I just wanted to let you know that I exist because for some reason I get really emotional when people decide not to believe in me. It's a lot more convenient to flat out tell them I'm here instead of, you know, putting it in a book. Which they may or may not read or even know about."

"Oh, okay. Sweet."

"Yeah, I know. PS, I'm going to telepathically beam down some information about how my son died for you so if you could follow my rules, everything would be awesome. Because I'm all powerful, I can do that sort of stuff and don't have to rely on a really old book to tell people my message."

 

Anyway, I enjoy Satanism because in the Church of Satan, they don't actually say Satan or God exist. The only God in Satanism is you and it feels a lot more empowering to celebrate yourself with all of the ideal images in magazines and whatever.

Edited February 25, 2014 by pudding

[Kestra15]

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

So we have a supposedly loving, caring, all-powerful God who has created a race that, by the very definition of their existence, is sinful and thus we are at his whim and mercy and should praise him every day and apologise for being alive?

 

That's not a God. That's a petulant child.

[edwardelricfreak]

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

Men maybe. At least I'm not a man.

 

But really, if it's a CONSCIOUS effort then maybe my brain's messed up. I certainly don't "consciously" reject and sin against him by "willful disobedience", unless by consciously rejecting him you mean not constantly praying and talking to him. And it's not like I'm suppressing those feelings? I could say "I'm not in denial" all I want and that probably won't get through to you as the truth...

 

Considering so many theistic religions out there claim their god(s) to be the real god(s) and basically say the same thing you said, how am I even supposed to know which one the "creator" is?

 

I would honestly not even know about any god(s) if other children at school didn't parrot what their parents taught them...

 

I also find it INCREDIBLY rude and arrogant to be told that since I don't believe in your god(s), I'm suddenly the worst person in the whole world and I'm going to be punished, even though I try to do good things in my life and help others... Seriously. I think the worst thing I've ever done that comes close to a real, punishable crime was writing on a bus seat when I was really young and didn't even know that vandalism and graffiti were bad things. I accidentally hit a kid in the nose with an umbrella, too. I guess that's pretty bad. It was seriously unintentional but no one except my mom believed me.

[lightbird]

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

That's mightily convenient for you, who has already been deeply indoctrinated. Apparently everybody everywhere even in the remotest and inaccesible parts of the world (Amazonian or Papua-New Guinean jungles, too) has been beamed information about God in their brains while still in the womb, they're just spiteful when they're born. And the oh-so-benevolent and loving God can't handle spitefulness in your brief life, therefore you deserve eternal torment, especially if you don't accept him sacrificing his own son, to himself, or, depending on the denomination, a part of himself to himself.

 

Even if I weren't raised to decide on my own about religion, I'd feel morally dirtied by believing in something like that.

Edited February 25, 2014 by lightbird

[Likewise]

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

Nope.

 

Really, I wish I could make a stronger argument than that, but it's the truth. I knew about god through cultural osmosis but it wasn't until I was in high school that I realized people actually believed god was a real being. I always thought it was just a metaphor. And when I found out that some politicians were literally asking god for advice I got downright scared. I can tell you from personal experience that what you're saying just isn't true.

[TCA]

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

I was raised Catholic but never really felt it. I spent several years trying to accept God and see or hear any trace or sign that I was being acknowledged. I think I literally begged a few times for anything I could recognize.

 

If the Christian God is real, he's either nowhere near as powerful as the faith claims, or nowhere near as benevolent and understanding.

 

I'm not atheist, I have my own sort of thing going- personally I lean towards the actual creator being completely uninvolved.

Edited February 25, 2014 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[BlitzDrake]

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

...................so even if someone has never heard of god then it's spiritual treason...like...really...that REALLY makes me view god as more malevolent than before. And that kind of religious superiority is definitely one of the reasons I left this faith.

 

Back on the killings and murders. Btw nothing is wrong with killing if the christian god says it is. In actuality, let's see, common sense, the law, most people don't want to kill people. You don't need religion to teach this...at least I HOPE the only reason you aren't going around killing people is because god hasn't "spoken" to you to do so.

 

The problems with Christianity begin with the Christian Bible. What are we to make of stories like that of II Kings 2? That chapter relates how the prophet Elisha was approaching the town of Bethel when a group of boys jeered him. Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord and two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the children. I once asked a Christian philosopher about this passage. He bit the bullet and said that God must not permit his holy prophets to be mocked.

Then there is the passage in I Samuel 15 where the prophet Samuel, speaking in the name of the Lord, orders Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites: "Spare no one; put them all to death, men and women, children and babes in arms, herds and flocks, camels and asses" (I Samuel 15). What did the Lord have against camels and asses (not to mention babes in arms)? Were the Amalekites so evil, even their infants and animals, that they merited utter extirpation? Scripture is full of such atrocities. Tom Paine spoke truly:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon rather than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my part, I sincerely detest it as I detest all that is cruel"(Paine, 1974)

Edited February 25, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[High Lord November]

Basically, and this is a bit of a repost from what I said beforehand, I don't care if, in reality, a god exists or not. It really shouldn't matter; your belief in a god shouldn't dictate whether or not you go to paradise, if said god does exist. Of course, I say that there's no such thing, but if we're looking at it from a religious's perspective, assuming whatever they believe is true, here's some reasoning that might work on their level.

 

I should be able to reason and use my brain to weight what I find important to me. Regardless of my religion, I will still be a good person. If that's good enough to get me into whatever paradise you can name after death, cool. If it isn't, I wouldn't want to go there. I wouldn't want to touch your god, who needs you to make him feel good in order to get into his private club instead of looking at your actual actions. I'll be "stuck" with a bunch of my peers, which is the much preferable option too. So basically, none of us should care about the end result, because it'll all work out one way or another.

 

Otherwise, it's petty. "Believe in me or you'll go to hell." That's a scare tactic, and does not promote free thinking and individuality and your own choice. "You have to pray to me as often as you can." That's pretty egoistic. Really, from what I've seen and heard, he has the attitude of a petty, petulant child, along with a pretty severe inferiority complex, not some sort of altruistic, all-knowing and all-loving being ("You guys don't believe in me? Time to kill you all and start anew until someone gets to recognize my amazingness and awesome presence").

 

There's just so many things that don't work on that level; but then again, faith and religion have much less to do with logic and thinking and more to do with belief and feeling.

 

 

 

Why is killing wrong?

 

Because it is ending someone's existence. It's killing all of their interactions and joy and their thoughts and selfbeing. We only get one life; after that, it's nothingness. It's a fellow human being, with their completely unique feelings, thought, makeup, and person. It is causing pain to themselves, their family and friends. That is wrong.

 

If you only consider it wrong because someone says so, then, uh, you don't really have your own morals in that regard.

Edited February 25, 2014 by High Lord November

[BlitzDrake]

And to add a bit more.

If god loved his creation and did not want to see them fall, and he's omniscient, why did he create the angel Lucifer that he knew would rebel against him? If god wanted us all to have a relationship with him why does he do nothing? Why is he on stand by as the number of christians grow smaller? You cannot possibly say that he gives people free will to worship him but then sends them to hell for making the choice not to worship him.

Should not god have intervened at a certain point as he sees his people shrink? If god does not want to intervene because that would affect our important freewill then humans will is stronger than the will of god.

 

Now answer me this, this is what I would like to know.

Why do you claim christianity is the true word? Why not Islam, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism? Why is it so easy for you to disregard those Gods/Goddesses as false but have the audacity to say you're religion (christianity) is the only one that has it right? Why do they not hold water for you? I ask this as well, can you make a statement why christianity is the true path without saying things such as "because the bible/god says so"?

 

 

@Awdz So I should just disregard all the bloodshed and killings in the name of the christian god? from what you are saying seems to be "ignore that" because it doesn't "help grow a relationship with god". Exactly. And i'm not the one to disregard such evil, and I'm not the only one. Killing in the name of your god is no better than when other religions do it. Do you frown upon Muslim extremists killing people that don't have their beliefs? It's the SAME thing as when god commands his people to do it. The only difference is the beliefs they have.

Edited February 25, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[Kiran]

If you want rules that are simple and easy to understand, try the 10 commandments.

Seriously? I think that any god that puts 'No working on the Sabbath' but not 'Don't rape people' into the ten most important rules has some problems. Shall we make working on Sundays (or Saturdays, whatever) illegal? How about for emergency workers?

[TikindiDragon]

Seriously? I think that any god that puts 'No working on the Sabbath' but not 'Don't rape people' into the ten most important rules has some problems. Shall we make working on Sundays (or Saturdays, whatever) illegal? How about for emergency workers?

Technically 'Thou Shalt not committ Adultery' would cover 'don't rape people' fyi.

 

*takes no real part in the conversation because he's simply deeply saddened at the vitriol on display towards Christianity*

[Shienvien]

Technically 'Thou Shalt not committ Adultery' would cover 'don't rape people' fyi.

 

I doubt that exact word would cover marital rape, though...

[The Evil Doer]

I doubt that exact word would cover marital rape, though...

Marital rape as a concept was created 50 years ago or smth, in the world of bible there is no such thing as wife not willing to have sex with her lawful husband hence the concept was irrelevant back then....

 

P.S. It always blows my mind when I witness the lack of tolerance towards religious people by non-religious people mainly coz my biggest problem with religion is their lack of tolerance towards us...

Edited February 25, 2014 by The Evil Doer