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There's no such thing as denying "God". There's such a thing as not believing in one. I don't think souls are something that exist, if in the hypothetical that they do why would any deity be interested in them?

 

It could be like a collectibles game. Whichever deity gets the bigger variety and largest number wins!

I think that the concept of "Denying" god is the same thing as not believing in god..by biblical standards ._.

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Of course you can "deny God". You can deny that he exists, or say that he exists but isn't all-powerful and doesn't rein over Earth/heaven/whatever, you can deny that just *one* God exists...

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Going to go off the current topic a bit and address something that's been bugging me for a while

 

I'd you need religion to guide you morally and can't figure out killing is wrong ON YOUR OWN or other similar things, that's terrifying.

I resent this. I resent it so, so much. I'm "terrifying" because I'm different from you? (And admittedly the majority of other people in existence) It's not like I can choose to comprehend you people's morals, all I have is what I've been told is right and wrong throughout my life. And yet somehow that makes me some kind of psycho or monster? Just because I'm different doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. You may as well be saying there's something wrong with me for being trans

 

Ah, glad that's out of my system (Oh dear lord I think she's gonna cry) I'm sorry if I'm just slamming my face into the ground again, but I just really hate it when people imply there's something wrong with me for not being "normal" (I kinda just got over doing that myself) It just really hurts, and apparently that's a bad thing

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Going to go off the current topic a bit and address something that's been bugging me for a while

 

 

I resent this. I resent it so, so much. I'm "terrifying" because I'm different from you? (And admittedly the majority of other people in existence) It's not like I can choose to comprehend you people's morals, all I have is what I've been told is right and wrong throughout my life. And yet somehow that makes me some kind of psycho or monster? Just because I'm different doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. You may as well be saying there's something wrong with me for being trans

 

Ah, glad that's out of my system (Oh dear lord I think she's gonna cry) I'm sorry if I'm just slamming my face into the ground again, but I just really hate it when people imply there's something wrong with me for not being "normal" (I kinda just got over doing that myself) It just really hurts, and apparently that's a bad thing

So you're saying that without religion you wouldn't know that murder or rape are wrong?

 

Because, quite honestly, that is beyond terrifying.

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Not exactly. But I can barely comprehend the concept of wrongness itself, so how do you expect me to consider a specific action wrong beyond outside sources? Aside from some supreme being that defines right and wrong saying something is wrong, I have nothing else. And sometimes I wonder how long I'll have that

 

I find it interesting that you cite rape as being something supremely wrong. For me the most wrong thing a person can do, and basically the only thing I naturally feel is wrong, would be to break a promise

 

But I suppose Master was right the first time then, I am a monster. I promise to remember that. Vile happy.gif

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Not exactly. But I can barely comprehend the concept of wrongness itself, so how do you expect me to consider a specific action wrong beyond outside sources? Aside from some supreme being that defines right and wrong saying something is wrong, I have nothing else. And sometimes I wonder how long I'll have that

 

I find it interesting that you cite rape as being something supremely wrong. For me the most wrong thing a person can do, and basically the only thing I naturally feel is wrong, would be to break a promise

 

But I suppose Master was right the first time then, I am a monster. I promise to remember that. Vile happy.gif

~Removed~

 

Why should you rely on a supreme being? If a person tells you that something is hurting them, it is wrong. Even if your supreme being doesn't tell you it's wrong, if another person is telling you that something is hurting or bothering or upsetting them then it is wrong to insist on continuing. I can understand needing a supreme being for more obscure things (like maybe rules set down about how to dress or a manner of speech that should be maintained or whatever), but for things that should be painfully obvious like rape and murder? No, you shouldn't need a supreme being to know that that's wrong.

 

...And I think that's a strange set of priorities. Breaking a promise is violating a trust. But a rape... Rape is worse. Rape violates the body, it violate the mind and spirit. Especially since a decent number of rapists are people who know their victim--there is likely some inherent level of trust there. Even if you don't know your rapist, that's still something that may strongly violate your ability to trust--you may never feel safe around people who share certain traits with your violator again.

 

If you cannot naturally feel that violating the mind, body, and spirit of a person in the most intimate way is wrong, then you terrify me.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Let's say there is no such thing as God, or gods, or anything else religious. Let's say there is no such thing as religion in this world anywhere. And let's say, for the sake of argument, we live in a world of complete anarchy where no laws of any kind exist, no higher authority of any kind to answer to for any crime. I think that any "normal" human being would inherently "feel" that rape and murder are wrong.

 

I can't see myself feeling a desire or need to cause hurt or death to anyone even if I had no beliefs of any kind. I know that I can be hurt and I have been through horrible ordeals, therefore I empathize and would never wish what I have been through on even my worst enemies. To not inherently know that something so horrendous as murder and rape are wrong... that's just a psychological disorder in my eyes.

Edited by LadyFoxfire

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See, this idea that you NEED religion to tell apart right from wrong is funny because I'm pretty much irreligious (or faithless, I don't know which word describes it better), as in I don't have one and feel as if it's not a part of my life, I'd say apathetic to religion rather than hating it, and I'm able to tell apart right from wrong, sooooo...

Edited by ylangylang

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See, this idea that you NEED religion to tell apart right from wrong is funny because I'm pretty much irreligious (or faithless, I don't know which word describes it better), as in I don't have one and feel as if it's not a part of my life, I'd say apathetic to religion rather than hating it, and I'm able to tell apart right from wrong, sooooo...

So you determine right from wrong based on feeling and intuition? Or if not those, then by what standard do you determine what is right and what is wrong?

Edited by philpot123

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So you determine right from wrong based on feeling and intuition? Or if not those, then by what standard do you determine what is right and what is wrong?

Whether I'm hurting someone or not. Quite easy, actually.

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Whether I'm hurting someone or not. Quite easy, actually.

That doesn't answer the question adequately. You've said what you think is wrong, but you haven't said why it's wrong. By what standard do you claim that hurting someone is wrong?

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I'm religious, but my brother is not. He doesn't know what to believe in, but he's still a very sensitive soul and knows (instinctively) right from wrong. Though my religion is my basis for right and wrong, it didn't need to be. I believe all people are inherently good and instinctively know right from wrong down deep inside whether they believe in a deity or not.

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That doesn't answer the question adequately. You've said what you think is wrong, but you haven't said why it's wrong. By what standard do you claim that hurting someone is wrong?

Are you seriously saying that people can't understand why hurting someone is wrong?........Because it causes pain???? jc I'm not debating this any more, this is ridiculous. You're literally saying that people cannot empathize with another person's pain when most people can do this naturally.

Edited by ylangylang

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Are you seriously saying that people can't understand why hurting someone is wrong?........Because it causes pain???? jc I'm not debating this any more, this is ridiculous. You're literally saying that people cannot empathize with another person's pain when most people can do this naturally.

I'm not talking about what I believe, I'm questioning YOUR basis for believing that hurting someone is wrong. Is hurting someone wrong because I think it's wrong? Is it wrong because I empathize with them? Or are you appealing to a transcendent standard? I want to know where this concept of "right and wrong" is coming from. Is it based on feeling? Reasoning? What? I don't see how this is "ridiculous" at all. It would be ridiculous to say that something was wrong without knowing why it was wrong.

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Empathy. Generally the basal instincts of a social animal.

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Empathy. Generally the basal instincts of a social animal.

Non funtioning in a surprisingly large portion of the population, fyi. People on the autism spectrum all struggle with empathy, as do people with any one of a large number of 'behaviour disorders'. There are also plenty of poeple in this world who are *not* diagnosed with any kind of mental illness that take great delight in the anguish and suffering of others (we most commonly see them in the form of internet trolls).

 

So.... saying that empathy is the sole basis for determining right and wrong actually leaves a large number of people utterly out of the equation.

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Well... I am not entirely certain whether empathy is the correct word for what I was thinking, more so just the first one that came to mind.

 

Therefore, emphasis on this part: The basal instincts of a social animal.

 

 

(There are people who are true antisocial sociopaths ... but no amount of religion is going to change their natures. That's just how they are hardwire-structured.)

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Of course you can "deny God". You can deny that he exists, or say that he exists but isn't all-powerful and doesn't rein over Earth/heaven/whatever, you can deny that just *one* God exists...

I'm not denying it/him/her/them for * sake. I don't believe in any of 'em. Do you deny fairies? Or unicorns? Or the magical cat that grants wishes to one Taiwanese boy under the age of ten every Friday? OF COURSE YOU DON'T. You simply don't believe in them.

 

I don't think you know what the word deny means.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Well... I am not entirely certain whether empathy is the correct word for what I was thinking, more so just the first one that came to mind.

 

Therefore, emphasis on this part: The basal instincts of a social animal.

 

 

(There are people who are true antisocial sociopaths ... but no amount of religion is going to change their natures. That's just how they are hardwire-structured.)

The thing is - a lot of people that are lacking those 'basal social instincts' will abide by rules because of the fear of punishment. It's one of the reasons we have jails - they're a deterrant. If everyone had, and reacted to, these 'basal social instincts' there would be no need for them. The simple fact is that a lot of people really *don't* have those instincts. It doesn't make them bad people, it just means they need to be taught. If they're taught well, they become useful functioning members of society - people you'd never know that they didn't naturally posses such empathetic instincts. Taught badly... well, see the jail population.

 

I'm not saying here that religion is nescesary to teach people those rules. It's a useful tool for doing so, but it isn't by any means the only one. But morality of the kind you are thinking simply isn't hardwired for a relatively sizeable segment of humanity. And if no one tries to teach them in any way - if there's just an expectation that they'll have an innate understanding of 'right' and 'wrong' - that's when you get problems.

 

Many of you will have had this sense of 'right and wrong' instilled in you by your parents at a very, very young age. "It's not nice to hurt people." is one of the earliest phrases most of us hear. But we do have to be taught what 'hurt' is, and that we need to avoid doing it. Or have you never watched kids in the playground? There's an awful lot of very casual nastiness in young children.

 

Bluntly put - I think it's erroneous to claim that most people have an innate sense of right and wrong. Most people were *taught* right from wrong by their parents, who learnt it from theirs - going back centuries. People can and do break away from the lessons their parents taught them, but that doesn't change that the lessons were tuaght in the first place.

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I'm not denying it/him/her/them for * sake. I don't believe in any of 'em. Do you deny fairies? Or unicorns? Or the magical cat that grants wishes to one Taiwanese boy under the age of ten every Friday?  OF COURSE YOU DON'T. You simply don't believe in them.

 

I don't think you know what the word deny means.

In biblical terms, God is real. To say that God is not, is to deny the truth. I apologize that the [wording from my perspective] was confusing.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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The simple fact is that a lot of people really *don't* have those instincts. It doesn't make them bad people, it just means they need to be taught. If they're taught well, they become useful functioning members of society - people you'd never know that they didn't naturally posses such empathetic instincts.

I think you might be a bit too stuck on the word "empathy" I used in the beginning... The basal instincts are not only those which make people capable of sympathising when someone is injured or feeling bad, but also all those which make people want to socially interact in any form, or make them feel good when they are praised, et cetera, et cetera. If it weren't for those social instincts, "being taught" wouldn't work.

- Switching some of them off will also not eliminate them all. (As far as I am aware, most autism spectrum people want some kind of positive interaction with at least someone. They might not be able to naturally understand why going and simply standing really close to a person they like might come across as slightly strange to the said person - using an example from another person from the spectrum -, but nevertheless, they usually have at least some social instincts.)

 

Again there *are* some who might lack (almost) all of said instincts - asocial sociopaths - but those people will remain much more potentially dangerous than others. Some of them never see any incentive to actually hurt someone, and others might stay too afraid to do anything truly bad ... but there is a reason why very strong majority serial killers are sociopaths.

 

(And there is also the fact that a lot of people do not feel fear in the same way others do - myself being an example.)

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I'm not talking about what I believe, I'm questioning YOUR basis for believing that hurting someone is wrong. Is hurting someone wrong because I think it's wrong? Is it wrong because I empathize with them? Or are you appealing to a transcendent standard? I want to know where this concept of "right and wrong" is coming from. Is it based on feeling? Reasoning? What? I don't see how this is "ridiculous" at all. It would be ridiculous to say that something was wrong without knowing why it was wrong.

How about we dissect the Ten Commandments:

 

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Don't believe in a god so irrelevant

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Seems like a certain omncient, perfect being is falling into one of his own deadly sins here. We get it.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Okay, really? How long does it take to actually get to the moral part here?

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

REALLY?! These are supposed to be rules on how not to be a major assbutt. So why are they all NOT about being a major assbutt?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Okay, here's a good one. Don't diss your mommy and daddy. Why? They raised you. They cared for you. The kindness they give should be returned because it is common human decency.

Thou shalt not kill.

People probably aren't going to like you if you murder people, the murdered individual especially. It's going to cause turmoil in the community. Avoid turmoil by avoiding making people upset. Don't kill people.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Same as above.

Thou shalt not steal.

It's all about social turmoil. You need to avoid it by avoiding these things. These things hurt people and when people are hurt, they get upset.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

If you're a lying censorkip.gif***, people aren't going to like you.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

I don't understand this one at all because if you don't want anything then the entire economy goes down the drain. Don't steal, I guess? That's sort of covered in the above.

 

 

So the "Big Ten" list of morals are half composed of things that aren't even morals and half morals that can be explained in terms of 'don't piss people off or hurt them or else they're come after you instead'. Doesn't seem like I need a god to tell me all of these things.

 

 

 

Also, who says the bible is real? It can't be proven as fact. As a Christian, you do not believe in Zeus. Are you denying him? No, you just don't beleive in him! Denying means ' to refuse to believe the truth of'. If we cannot prove gods are real (All gods), we cannot deny them. We just don't believe in them.

 

What about the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Do you believe in her?

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Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
My personal moral code would expand it as follows: "Honour all who haven't given you a reason not to. Tolerate the as long as they are doing nothing that would harm people unless intervened."

 

There is no reason to single out the parents, especially if they are of the abusive kind.

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How about we dissect the Ten Commandments:

 

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Don't believe in a god so irrelevant

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Seems like a certain omncient, perfect being is falling into one of his own deadly sins here. We get it.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Okay, really? How long does it take to actually get to the moral part here?

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

REALLY?! These are supposed to be rules on how not to be a major assbutt. So why are they all NOT about being a major assbutt?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Okay, here's a good one. Don't diss your mommy and daddy. Why? They raised you. They cared for you. The kindness they give should be returned because it is common human decency.

Thou shalt not kill.

People probably aren't going to like you if you murder people, the murdered individual especially. It's going to cause turmoil in the community. Avoid turmoil by avoiding making people upset. Don't kill people.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Same as above.

Thou shalt not steal.

It's all about social turmoil. You need to avoid it by avoiding these things. These things hurt people and when people are hurt, they get upset.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

If you're a lying censorkip.gif***, people aren't going to like you.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

I don't understand this one at all because if you don't want anything then the entire economy goes down the drain. Don't steal, I guess? That's sort of covered in the above.

 

 

So the "Big Ten" list of morals are half composed of things that aren't even morals and half morals that can be explained in terms of 'don't piss people off or hurt them or else they're come after you instead'. Doesn't seem like I need a god to tell me all of these things.

 

 

 

Also, who says the bible is real? It can't be proven as fact. As a Christian, you do not believe in Zeus. Are you denying him? No, you just don't beleive in him! Denying means ' to refuse to believe the truth of'. If we cannot prove gods are real (All gods), we cannot deny them. We just don't believe in them.

 

What about the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Do you believe in her?

You did a really great job of not answering my question. I'll answer yours when you answer mine.

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