Religion

[Likewise]

Spirituality and religion is individualistic; who is anyone to dictate benign belief?

People vote based on their religious beliefs. America is theoretically secular, but the large number of Christians mean that secularism is very underrepresented in our politics. It's tragic because secularism is wonderful both for scientific advancement and religious freedom.

[HeatherMarie]

People vote based on their religious beliefs.

Yes. That. I just.... ARGH.

 

If everyone was just going around leading their own lives according to the parts of the Bible they believe, that'd be just awesome. .... But it's not like that.

 

People are pointing to the Bible and going "These people are sinful and the law should reflect that!". People are using the Bible as an excuse to discriminate, pass hateful laws, and even murder.

 

And those same people are most likely breaking a handful of "Bible-rules" themselves.

 

It frustrates the heck of out me. I'm getting punished for what others believe in. Wth?

Edited February 23, 2014 by Marie19R

[AngesRadieux]

People vote based on their religious beliefs. America is theoretically secular, but the large number of Christians mean that secularism is very underrepresented in our politics. It's tragic because secularism is wonderful both for scientific advancement and religious freedom.

I can't stand when people try to pass laws based on their religious beliefs. You think abortion is a deadly sin? Good for you! Don't get one. But don't go trying to take away my right to make a medical decision regarding my body. Don't like gay marriage? Fine. Don't attend the ceremonies. But stop trying to take away other peoples' rights just because you don't like them. Especially since even among Christians, there's debate about whether or not it should be accepted, and marriage is as much, if not more, a legal institution than a religious one. If the head of your particular church doesn't like it, the beautiful thing about separation of church and state is that the head of your church doesn't have to perform the ceremony. But I'm sure there are plenty of people in churches/temples/etc. of various religions that are perfectly okay with it and there are probably tons of couples who want a legal marriage without a religious ceremony. Regardless, just because it goes against your specific beliefs, it doesn't need to be illegal. If the constitution stated that America was a Christian nation, I might think differently about it, but that is most certainly not the case

 

I don't know. I tend to be of the mindset "live and let live". I have my beliefs, and I won't try to force them on anyone else. You're free to have whatever beliefs you want and it won't bother me one bit until you start trying to force them down my throat.

 

And, by the way, I just want to specify that I'm using "you" in a general sense, not directed towards anyone in this discussion. I hope that's clear in my post, but just in case it isn't I'll say it point blank.

[demonicvampiregirl]

Yes. That. I just.... ARGH.

 

If everyone was just going around leading their own lives according to the parts of the Bible they believe, that'd be just awesome. .... But it's not like that.

 

People are pointing to the Bible and going "These people are sinful and the law should reflect that!". People are using the Bible as an excuse to discriminate, pass hateful laws, and even murder.

 

And those same people are most likely breaking a handful of "Bible-rules" themselves.

 

It frustrates the heck of out me. I'm getting punished for what others believe in. Wth?

I agree. I'm to the point where I almost hate any form of religion. Especially after Arizona passed that insane bill allowing discrimination. Glad we are going back to the past so well! What's next? Women only belong in the kitchen again? I am so sick of this going backwards instead of forwards.

 

The only tolerable one I've seen was Wicca because how a friend of mine explained it to me it seems like a rather peaceful one and it doesn't seem to lead to any form of hate. I may be wrong and some things in history may say otherwise itself but far as I know it seems to be more peaceful.

[edwardelricfreak]

I agree. I'm to the point where I almost hate any form of religion. Especially after Arizona passed that insane bill allowing discrimination. Glad we are going back to the past so well! What's next? Women only belong in the kitchen again? I am so sick of this going backwards instead of forwards.

 

The only tolerable one I've seen was Wicca because how a friend of mine explained it to me it seems like a rather peaceful one and it doesn't seem to lead to any form of hate. I may be wrong and some things in history may say otherwise itself but far as I know it seems to be more peaceful.

Makes you feel like you're watching Twitch Plays Pokemon when they're under anarchy...

 

Honestly you shouldn't hate the RELIGION itself, but the people who claim to have a certain religion and make poor decisions, like passing absurd laws, based on said religious basis. There are MANY religious people who are very nice, rational people. They aren't all bad. I've known terrible people who were atheist, etc...

 

There are other peaceful ones, too, after all. In fact, I'm pretty sure Islam is actually meant to be a religion of peace, but the PEOPLE, namely extremists, aren't following their own religion.

[demonicvampiregirl]

Makes you feel like you're watching Twitch Plays Pokemon when they're under anarchy...

 

Honestly you shouldn't hate the RELIGION itself, but the people who claim to have a certain religion and make poor decisions, like passing absurd laws, based on said religious basis. There are MANY religious people who are very nice, rational people. They aren't all bad. I've known terrible people who were atheist, etc...

 

There are other peaceful ones, too, after all. In fact, I'm pretty sure Islam is actually meant to be a religion of peace, but the PEOPLE, namely extremists, aren't following their own religion.

Yeah I've got a friend who is religious yet she also belives in Science because she said that god created it so we could learn more about him and what is around us. Now that kind of view point I can agree with.

 

Sad to say there has been many times I've seen something religious based and I've gotten furious over it and posted a lot of things towards it but yeah. Just sick of people who want to follow the bible or gods words then turn around and become intolerant, not accepting and discriminatory towards anyone who does not agree with them or is gay or whatever they are against.

 

I honestly refuse to even believe in any religion anymore. Not only because of the people who use it for their own twisted reasons but because unless I see things I have a hard time believing it. Like I see nature so I can believe in Mother Nature. That is what really gets me interested in Wicca because it seems to be rather nature based as well. Dealing with astronomy, crystals and the like it's something I can see and feel.

 

Yeah I've heard from my dad that the Qur'an (correct me on the spelling if I'm wrong) is actually close to the Christian bible. It's actually more peaceful than how it is being looked at.

 

The thing that gets me is people saying all these nice things about Christianity and all that but yet if you look back at history people feared them because of how they treated others.

[georgexu94]

People are pointing to the Bible and going "These people are sinful and the law should reflect that!". People are using the Bible as an excuse to discriminate, pass hateful laws, and even murder.

How can people use the Bible as an excuse to murder? I doubt that would be possible.

[Likewise]

How can people use the Bible as an excuse to murder? I doubt that would be possible.

A hit list of abortion doctors killed by Christians.

 

Biblical verses were God commands or partakes in murder.

 

Wikipedia page on "Christian Terrorism."

[LadyFoxfire]

An Orthodox Christian believes in the god Yawhe. (I refuse to call him/her/it "God", since there are too many of these.) Thus your lack of full belief in that specific God and your skepticism doesn't make you a believer, does it?

 

I've always found this interesting. I have plenty of friends who identify as Christian yet believe in reincarnation, the Zodiac, chakra etc. Then what makes you (you as in general believers) Christian? The belief that Jesus Christ was the son of God? But how can you be a true Hindu/Christian/Muslim if you don't follow the sayings of your religion? Excluding the religious scriptures argument because those have been accepted by the general public as man made. You can't just taylor a religion based on your needs.

 

I tried to do that before I ended up in the conclusion that there probably isn't a God. And if I have to think back I can't call it anything other than stupid. You can't be an Atheist and believe in ghosts and angels the same way you can't be a Christian and not consider the Zodiac a work of the "devil".

An Eastern Orthodox "Catholic" has all the same beliefs as the Roman Catholics except for the where they split. They both belief in One God and Jesus Christ his son, but how both go about worshiping them is different, and they belief in different Saints, to my knowledge. I'm not a skeptic of my new Orthodox faith at all. When I first checked it out, it just... "fit", "felt right", so I knew that was the choice I needed to make.

 

I don't create a taylor made religion to my "needs". I found this religion that just felt right when I was in my early twenties. The Roman Catholics were getting into some weird things and I'd begun to study the schism between the Vatican and the Orthodox Catholics around during that time.

 

I, myself, don't believe in reincarnation. I hope to God I never have to come up here again. Once I'm dead, that's it. I want to retire. Zodiacs and chakras are asrology, which doesn't have to be a bad thing. God made these things for us to figure out. What one needs to be careful of is accidentally inviting evil influences in while you're working on such meditations, etc. New Age beliefs and my faith can go hand in hand pretty well as long as there is the understanding that evil does exist and will try to trick you into letting them in. As for these things being a work of the devil? That all depends on the person using them and what their exact intention is. My personal belief about ghosts and aliens is that they are nothing more than demons & fallen angels, which kind of goes hand in hand with my first post about how the ancient gods of Greece and Egypt, in my belief, were just the fallen angels posing as aliens, or supreme beings while their sons and daughters, Hercules and Aphrodite, etc. - the men and women of "renknown", IMO, would be the Nephilim, or demons who were spawned from the paring of human women and fallen angels - basically the now disemboddied demons.

[Kestra15]

People vote based on their religious beliefs.

We all vote according to belief; you won't support a party/idealogy you don't believe in. I make my decisions based on my spiritual beliefs, chief among them being that I don't mind what a person does so long as it will not bring harm and inconvenience to another person. I do think that there should be a separation of state and church and certainly stand against laws introduced purely because they are religious laws and are thus biased. But such laws generally would not be 'benign,' which was I used that word in my original statement, and (ironically) goes against my own spiritual belief.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Kestra15

[vivo]

Many people are quite liberal with how they define their religion. Often times, I've known people to identify themselves as Christians, but only because they believe in the Christian God and/or Jesus Christ.

 

I've also known some atheists who believe in reincarnation, myself included. Am I suddenly a Buddhist or something? I love some of the teachings in Buddhism, but I do not define myself as one, just like though I follow some of the teachings of Jesus I don't identify as a Christian.

 

I identify as an agnostic-atheistic Unitarian Universalist. I don't believe in god/creator, but I don't know for sure. I'm even slightly deistic, because I feel like if there is a god/creator, then it doesn't intervene and just started the universe and let it run free. I believe that it's possible someone like Jesus could have been alive, but I don't believe he was the son of God, was literally reborn and ascended to heaven, or was my "lord and savior". I don't believe in Shiva or Zeus or Amaterasu or anything of the sort. But there are PLENTY of teachings in a bunch of different religions I do follow.

 

I think it all comes down to how an individual identifies themselves, at least within the bounds of a general definition, like being an atheist and not believing in any gods.

But how can one believe in reincarnation as an atheist? Not necessarily in your case since you are a deist.

 

The problem is, people often identify with something that doesn't necessarily define them. I can't say I'm lesbian but only feel sexual and romantic attraction towards men for example. Here are some examples in the case of the atheist:

Do you believe in the concept of a soul? Isn't your sole existence your current existing brain and its functions? But if you believe in a soul then don't you also believe in the context of some sort of non-definible universal power that allows life to be reborn again? Isn't that a form of "God" in whichever context you want to take it?

 

I'm a non-spiritual atheist. I simply can't believe there is an afterlife. I acknowledge that I might be wrong but based on my assumptions and thoughts I currently don't see it as a possibility. Being skeptical and always questioning is good. But for a belief to be deemed a "belief" in every sense of the word some fundamental properties of said held beliefs need to be help, or at least one should be able to thoroughly justify them.

 

Zodiacs and chakras are astrology, which doesn't have to be a bad thing. God made these things for us to figure out.

 

But that's the thing, it's nowhere mentioned that the Christian god created any of these concepts. And neither is it accepted by any of the mayor religious leaders of Christianity. They are products of other religions that have been borrowed and used and taken out of context by modern societies. So no, this isn't something your god created. Based on your religion these are as true as Unicorns are. Are dragons also something god created for humans to figure out?

 

[EDIT] Wow, I just learned my grandmother doesn't believe in the "concept" of evolution. That makes her the first person I know that doesn't accept Darwin's theory of evolution. Cheers!

Edited February 23, 2014 by flitzthesoulreaper

[Shienvien]

But how can one believe in reincarnation as an atheist?

 

Simple. Reincarnation doesn't need a deity to take place. Look at Buddhism - there is no deity who governs it, but yet, reincarnation is a major part in it.

 

Atheism in the strictest sense = lack of belief in god(s). It determines nothing at all of your other beliefs.

[vivo]

Simple. Reincarnation doesn't need a deity to take place. Look at Buddhism - there is no deity who governs it, but yet, reincarnation is a major part in it.

 

Atheism in the strictest sense = lack of belief in god(s). It determines nothing at all of your other beliefs.

I should probably have phrased that as non-spiritual atheist. You still _have_ to be spiritual to be able to believe in reincarnation. The concept of the soul requires for the individual to accept that there is some sort of magical energy that somehow ties itself to a new form of life every time it is released, or "travels" to a place where it will be judged etc, carrying somehow information usually stored in brain cells etc. on its own.

[Shienvien]

I should probably have phrased that as non-spiritual atheist. You still _have_ to be spiritual to be able to believe in reincarnation.

That I agree with. To believe in souls/reincarnation, you have to be spiritual. (There, however, exist both spiritual and non-spiritual atheists.)

 

@Fightandspawn: Of course we won't hate on you. We are a pretty friendly bunch of both atheists and various theists/deists. I myself am a materialistic/non-spiritual atheist, and also a supporter of the ideology of "as long as they aren't harming anyone with their beliefs or forcing their faith onto others, let people believe whatever they want".

 

By the way, those people who "hate on religion" are called antitheists (a-prefix noting lack of, and anti-prefix noting opposition). A little something to keep in mind when anyone is confused in regards to what atheism as a term means.

 

A little joking notion I sometimes make: "Atheists are only atheists when others start talking about religion. Otherwise we are just people minding our own business."

Edited February 23, 2014 by Shienvien

[BlitzDrake]

How can people use the Bible as an excuse to murder? I doubt that would be possible.

Easy! There's various places in the bible that god explicitly tells his people to kill others in his name. It's OK to murder, as long as god says so!

 

Can we kill? Exodus 20:13 says “thou shalt not kill”. Exodus 32:27, Numbers 31, and MANY of other verses show God commanding us to kill.

 

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

Kill Nonbelievers They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13

 

Rape, Pillaging and Murder:

Judges 21:10-24

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These people killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil? God did nothing to stop this atrocity.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

 

These are only a few occurences that gods says "yeah guys, take em out". Why were some groups killed? Cause it threatened their beliefs? Is it ever necessary to kill for religion?

Edited February 23, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[vivo]

BlightWyvern: This should explain most of those things. A very interesting watch. According to this video Yahweh started out as a war god.

 

 

Ignore the "Atheism" part. It's about the very beginning of Christianity.

 

Edit: Got the christian god's name wrong. :/

Edited February 23, 2014 by flitzthesoulreaper

[Kiran]

How can people use the Bible as an excuse to murder? I doubt that would be possible.

Check out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. The Old Testament in particular is pretty horrifying.

 

I sort of get how being a Christian could be comforting to people, but a lot of the ideas and stories in the bible make me feel sick. Sure, there are some great teachings like 'help the poor', but you don't need religion for that. Aside from that, it seems like in church they're always glossing over the bad stuff. They'll talk on and on about how believers will go to Heaven and such, but they almost never mention the whole 'oh, and most of the world is going to Hell for picking the wrong belief system' thing (if I believed in something like that, I'd probably have quite a few more nightmares). In Sunday School they'll say things like 'God is all-powerful' and 'God loves you', but then you just get into the problem of evil. Has anyone ever heard the verses that BlightWyvern posted (or similar) mentioned in church?

[ConcentratedRainbow]

It really is so confusing, isn't it? In the Quran, many things about sins are repeated ooooover and oooover and over, but then there are these verses (I think that's what they would be in the Bible) that say it's okay to kill if you're killing people who aren't following Islam. I mean,chats why we have so many Middle Eastern terrorists. Trust me, I know. I'm thinking about secretly quitting and changing to Atheism. -_____-

[vivo]

It really is so confusing, isn't it? In the Quran, many things about sins are repeated ooooover and oooover and over, but then there are these verses (I think that's what they would be in the Bible) that say it's okay to kill if you're killing people who aren't following Islam. I mean,chats why we have so many Middle Eastern terrorists. Trust me, I know. I'm thinking about secretly quitting and changing to Atheism. -_____-

Sweety just take care. A good friend of mine is an ex-muslim and her family took it really, really badly, so be careful with what you express out of your trusted cycles. Try reading some books to decide what fits your world-views the most and make an informed decision.

[LadyFoxfire]

But that's the thing, it's nowhere mentioned that the Christian god created any of these concepts. And neither is it accepted by any of the mayor religious leaders of Christianity. They are products of other religions that have been borrowed and used and taken out of context by modern societies. So no, this isn't something your god created. Based on your religion these are as true as Unicorns are. Are dragons also something god created for humans to figure out?

 

 

I can't speak for chakras on that. I can say that the Bible specifically says that God set the moon, the sun and the stars in the heavens for "signs", and seasons. Astrology was originally God's tool for us.

 

Unicorns are still alive today - the white rhino, literally one-horned. I found a great video on youtube about them, but I don't think I'm allowed to bring links here.

 

Dragons - yes. The dragon is talked about a lot in various places in the Bible, not always good. Some would also say the "behemoth" was a dragon, others would say it was the dinosaur, but the "great serpents" are definitely mentioned.

 

In the Orthodox faith, we also take some of the literature from other Evangelical Christians because they have it right. There is more out there than just "the Bible", and then there are those who give insight about that literature (those that have studied their faith long enough to give it a go". Still, that doesn't mean you can't believe in other things, like the chakras. If something works, it doesn't make it evil unless you intend to use something in an evil way. Chakras are energy points in the body, but I'm rusty on all that stuff. I mean, God didn't tell us to take vitamins and minerals either for body health. Does that make them evil? He gave us scientific minds and all the herbs and plants of the earth and wanted us to figure this stuff out for ourselves.

[vivo]

 

I can't speak for chakras on that. I can say that the Bible specifically says that God set the moon, the sun and the stars in the heavens for "signs", and seasons. Astrology was originally God's tool for us.

 

Unicorns are still alive today - the white rhino, literally one-horned. I found a great video on youtube about them, but I don't think I'm allowed to bring links here.

 

Dragons - yes. The dragon is talked about a lot in various places in the Bible, not always good. Some would also say the "behemoth" was a dragon, others would say it was the dinosaur, but the "great serpents" are definitely mentioned.

 

In the Orthodox faith, we also take some of the literature from other Evangelical Christians because they have it right. There is more out there than just "the Bible", and then there are those who give insight about that literature (those that have studied their faith long enough to give it a go". Still, that doesn't mean you can't believe in other things, like the chakras. If something works, it doesn't make it evil unless you intend to use something in an evil way. Chakras are energy points in the body, but I'm rusty on all that stuff. I mean, God didn't tell us to take vitamins and minerals either for body health. Does that make them evil? He gave us scientific minds and all the herbs and plants of the earth and wanted us to figure this stuff out for ourselves.

So god gave us scientific minds and we know how the sun actually came to be yet you claim it's god that put it there?

 

Also, dragons? Really? We KNOW dragons are _mythical_ creatures. Made up by the fantasies of people that were not able to explain them in any other way.

 

Why is "the scientific mind" selective then? Why does it choose to discard evidence in certain cases and in others not?

Also, chakra as a concept hasn't been scientifically proven, thus proving your above argument invalid.

 

I'm not referring to anything as "evil". I am saying though that it is contradictory to say you believe in specific things that your fate dictates as false or immoral. God also gave us Canabis and Opium. Wanna bet he wanted us to use our "scientific minds" there too?

 

My apologies, but I really fail to grasp your logic here.

Edited February 23, 2014 by flitzthesoulreaper

[MasterWeavile898]

Has anyone ever heard the verses that BlightWyvern posted (or similar) mentioned in church?

I have. Plenty in fact. Not when I was little, most people seem to frown on telling children of violence

 

And Flitz, the existence of "dragons" is quite provable. I've seen several very interesting articles and videos doing so. It's quite interesting if you look beyond the surface

[vivo]

I have. Plenty in fact. Not when I was little, most people seem to frown on telling children of violence

 

And Flitz, the existence of "dragons" is quite provable. I've seen several very interesting articles and videos doing so. It's quite interesting if you look beyond the surface

Please link me to said articles. "Dragons" are no different than Zeus' thunders and Yawheh's "making the day night". Things that could once not be proved were given a magical explanation.

Edited February 23, 2014 by flitzthesoulreaper

[BlitzDrake]

Check out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. The Old Testament in particular is pretty horrifying.

 

Has anyone ever heard the verses that BlightWyvern posted (or similar) mentioned in church?

~Love that thing

~Of course not! Why? Because that would "scare" people. OR what my church did was justify the killings like in Sodom/Gomorrah where there was supposedly few righteous men. The other killings that I've pointed out, they justified by saying "oh they were killing Christians and these people (the enemy) would kill their wives/children or sacrifice them to "pagan" gods.

 

 

Found this on Reddit a while back, saved it 'cause it fits my feelings as well

The reasons I left the faith are twofold, mostly.

Growing up, I was subject to the stereotypical "God is good and forgiving" line that is tantamount to modern day apologia.

I was taught Creationism, and some of the evidence was really convincing, to be honest. It made me question some of the evolutionary teachings I had heard in school, and I had to truly re-evaluate what I believed.

Then, at some point, it just clicked. It doesn't matter if you think God is real, it matters if you think God is worth following and supporting.

As I read through scripture, I was confronted with story after story that demonstrated, to me, the behaviour of an all-powerful kindergartener, not a loving deity.

I realized that in the case of the Garden, assuming it's true, we were set up to fail.

We were held accountable, as a species, for believing a lie. Humans, according to scripture, had never been subject to deception before. Literally, before the serpent, 100% of what Adam and Eve had heard was true. There was no reason to doubt the serpent, because skepticism comes with knowledge.

Then there was the fact that humans were punished, for "sinning."

I had two problems with that.

If they hadn't eaten from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil," then by definition they didn't know right from wrong. It's irreconcilable. And punishing someone for a crime they didn't understand isn't gracious.

If Eve, by eating the fruit, introduced Original Sin into the world, then there's a whole mess of other problems. For instance, that means that the serpent lying and tempting wasn't a sin. If the serpent lying and tempting wasn't a sin, then Lucifer rebelling against God in the first place wasn't a sin. If rebelling against God wasn't a sin, then questioning and doubting God wasn't a sin. And if questioning and doubting God wasn't a sin, then salvation is unnecessary.

Then there's the image of God as a father figure. I like to make an analogy in this case.

If you had a two year old kid, then there's a pretty good chance that they don't fully understand right and wrong yet. That's a pretty good comparison for Adam and Eve, being as they hadn't yet eaten from the tree of knowledge.

Now, as a responsible parent, you tell the kid not to touch the stove, which is on. You tell them that touching it will burn them, and it will hurt. You step out to make a call, and leave the stove on. This is a fair comparison for leaving the tree in the garden unattended.

Enter me. I'll be the serpent in this one. I go to your kid, and tell them that touching the stove won't actually hurt. You were mistaken. I say to touch the stove. You know what the kid does? They touch the stove. They are inclined to believe me.

Here's the part where humanity surpassed God in grace. You know what you do when your kid burns themselves? You bandage them. You kiss their boo-boo. You explain that there are people out there who you mustn't believe, and tell them to learn from the experience.

You know what you don't do? You don't kick them out. You don't cut off their college fund, or subject them to the horrors of working in the adult world. You don't curse them.

You yell at me. I'm the one responsible for your child's injuries, not the child.

If God were a parent worth having, he would have done the same. Instead, he did everything on the "don't" list, times a hundred.

That was hard for me to accept.

But there's more.

The Tower of Babel.

This was really one of the final straws for me.

In the passage, God says:

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

As a parent, you're preparing your child to succeed without you. It's the point. You want them to be self-sufficient. It's the measuring stick of a parent, how their child fares without them. That's not what happens here.

God is made insecure by humans capabilities. So he cheats. He breaks down their ability to communicate. Petty. It's tantamount to changing the answers on your kids homework because they no longer need your help with it.

That would make you a bad parent, so why is it "good" if the Almighty does it?

Then there's the salvation story.

According to this source, the number of people who have existed is 107,602,707,791. That's mind-boggling.

Now, I'm going to be very generous here. Let's assume that half of everyone went to heaven. That means, by default, that an equal half went to hell. That's over fifty billion souls, burning eternally.

And for what? Free will?

I ask you this: is free will worth it? I can only speak for myself, but if giving up my ability to make independent decisions meant that just one person would be spared that torment, I'd do it in a heart-beat.

And lets be honest here. God doesn't really want free will anyway. The Tower of Babel demonstrates that unequivocally. When we "choose" something that's displeasing, he intervenes and cheats.

That means that fifty billion people are burning for the illusion of choice, so that his "praises" are a little more convincing.

He created, and doomed, a sentient species just to get an ego boost. How could I justify following someone who seemed so needy and petty?

I can't.

Then there's the Egyptian story.

One man, the Pharaoh, speaks for an entire people. God, when he doesn't get what he wants, kills all the firstborn of a people who didn't make the decision.

Let that sink in for a moment.

You wouldn't support a guerrilla fighter who massacred children to get what they wanted, so how could you support a god that did the same thing?

Then there's the gap between the Fall and Jesus.

Being conservative here, going off Creationism, lets say it's roughly 4,000 years. That's four thousand years worth of people who were doomed to burn for the misfortune of being born outside of the Jewish people.

The Jews, by the way, are another evidence against a gracious God.

He chose one people, and favored them. He intervened in war and such, causing countless deaths against other people. He helped them take land, and encouraged them to kill the children of their enemies.

How gracious is that? It's like a child, playing army. He chooses one side, and stacks the deck against all others.

Not all-loving, that.

Then there's the shear inefficiency of spreading the Gospel via humans. What about people in Africa who died the day after Jesus was crucified?

What was their sin? Being born in the wrong place? Not having internet?

Assuming God is all-powerful, there's no excuse for taking 4,000 years to rectify the issue, nor is there an excuse for allowing such rectification to take so long, given that it's human souls on the line.

In short, there's no way I could ever respect God as an equal to humanity, much less revere him as our superior. Simply put, we're better than him.

And there's no way I could dedicate my life to someone or something so temperamental, selfish, needy, lazy, infanticidal, and generally unloving as the Christian God.

Edited February 23, 2014 by BlightWyvern

[KageSora]

But how can one believe in reincarnation as an atheist? Not necessarily in your case since you are a deist.

Because a belief in souls that are reborn does not necessarily require a belief in any kind of god or goddess or other deity-like entity.

 

I should probably have phrased that as non-spiritual atheist. You still _have_ to be spiritual to be able to believe in reincarnation. The concept of the soul requires for the individual to accept that there is some sort of magical energy that somehow ties itself to a new form of life every time it is released, or "travels" to a place where it will be judged etc, carrying somehow information usually stored in brain cells etc. on its own.

Just to point out, though, that not all people believe souls to be mystical in nature.

 

There are plenty of people who believe that, in time, we will have a scientific explanation for them--that we just lack the knowledge and the technology to obtain that information at this time.

 

So god gave us scientific minds and we know how the sun actually came to be yet you claim it's god that put it there?

Religion and science can and do peacefully coexist. There are many who believe that God works through the laws of reality as we know them even though He can break them if He wants to. Who says that God couldn't make the sun through the Big Bang? If you look at it like that, science really is a tool that was created to help us learn more about the world that He made.

 

Also, dragons? Really? We KNOW dragons are _mythical_ creatures. Made up by the fantasies of people that were not able to explain them in any other way.

 

Nope, not necessarily true! "Dragon" is not a term that sticks to one single type of entity. I mean, look at all the styles of dragons we have--the "classic western", the "wyvern", the "eastern", the "something-I-can't-remember-but-it's-basically-a-winged-snake", the "lindworm", etc. All of those are "dragons" yet the look incredibly different.

 

To a person who didn't know what a dinosaur was, it's entirely possible that they would call a T-Rex or something a "dragon". Who's to say that "dragon" wasn't a term used to refer to creatures that we now have a different word for today? (What with languages changing and evolving and all that)

 

 

 

(And, for the record, I'm ex-Roman Catholic, currently agnostic though I'm not 100% sure where I stand on the idea of a higher power--possibly there is one, but if there is, it's probably a hands-off one)