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[Nectaris]

For as long as I have been here TJ has been against chat in the forum. I could be wrong, but I believe that the venting thread fiasco only cemented that attitude. There have been many, many suggestions asking for a chat thread or a looser place on the forums, and TJ's answer was to create the IRC. I know that many don't choose to use the IRC. I am one of them. I am also someone who always argues in favor of looser rules or the allowance of some chatter. It's just that I have been aware of TJ's attitude about this subject for so long that it makes me believe that it is TJ's desires that are controlling the mods' behavior in this department and not the mods abusing their modly powers. I would never be a mod here. If you toe TJ's line, the members hate you, if you try to show any leniency, TJ is down your neck. There is no way of winning for the mods.

 

The thing that contradicts that though is that the majority of the forums are more relaxed about it. It really is only SD and the news section which have this problem of being overly strict. And to me, there is a difference between true chat and allowing actual discussion, SD doesn't seem to allow discussion because of their definition of "chat".

Edited March 23, 2013 by Nectaris

[Pokemonfan13]

Just in case you didn't notice, SD and News are modded by the same people. *shrug*

[Rockin' On]

Mods have a modicum of "authority" in DC...& in most cases,they dont push their weight around,but hang back,& speak up to war/point out a problem occurring either on a thread convo,or personal info. they treat discreetly...but..mods are...well,PEOPLE,& ALL perople get bad times /moods...but Ive really only gotten insulted(vicariously)1 or 2 x's by comments,actions that were..too,(harsh/quickly jumped too??)

It must be tough,I wouldnt wanna walk that line..as Ive had several mods that are on my books as PEOPLE/MEMBERS before "cops/authority figures".

Ive even had things explained when I was not sure WHY they behaved certain ways...Im not a cop lover,but folks is folks...I gift some mods/recieve holiday PMs..so,whats that make me?A brown noser? Not hardly...just less irritation is key at times'

Rockin' On

[Fuzzbucket]

I may be misremembering - but I seem to recall a post somewhere from TJ saying something along the lines that SD needed to be kept very firmly on topic, so that suggestions can be properly followed and discussed without loads of +1, Support; HATE this - and no real discussion of the idea at hand...

[Pokemonfan13]

I think you're thinking about the BSA section.

[kerrikins]

Another thing that's frustrating is that the Shimmer thread was closed two days ago and the last post has not been updated to indicate whether it will remain closed, nor has the thread been re-opened.

 

I know that the mods have limited amount of time and that they need to discuss things with each other, but it'd be nice if there was an update of some sort. And I say this as someone who didn't even post much in that topic, I was just enjoying seeing the developments and new lineages.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think you're thinking about the BSA section.

Well at least I didn't TOTALLY imagine it !

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Just in case you didn't notice, SD and News are modded by the same people. *shrug*

I think I see your point. And yep, that might be the problem.

[Lythiaren]

Mods have a modicum of "authority" in DC...& in most cases,they dont push their weight around,but hang back,& speak up to war/point out a problem occurring either on a thread convo,or personal info. they treat discreetly...but..mods are...well,PEOPLE,& ALL perople get bad times /moods...but Ive really only gotten insulted(vicariously)1 or 2 x's by comments,actions that were..too,(harsh/quickly jumped too??)

It must be tough,I wouldnt wanna walk that line..as Ive had several mods that are on my books as PEOPLE/MEMBERS before "cops/authority figures".

Ive even had things explained when I was not sure WHY they behaved certain ways...Im not a cop lover,but folks is folks...I gift some mods/recieve holiday PMs..so,whats that make me?A brown noser? Not hardly...just less irritation is key at times'

Rockin' On

Your logic breaks down when you remember that mods are people who applied for and accepted the job. Many, many extremely levelheaded ordinary users here opted not to apply for moderator positions even if they'd been mods elsewhere in the past (myself included, I was once a player moderator on RuneScape and yes, I had to abandon my personality while modding, and yes, I also effectively became a mute when I was just playing the game) because we chose not to take that job. If they're unable to do their jobs, which are often delicate and require very careful handling and mental fortitude, they should not be doing that job at that time and should have someone else handle it. That includes, especially, modding while in a bad mood. If your job requires handling and fixing something extremely delicate, you do not hit it with a sledge hammer and call it done just because you get flustered. Ever. If you did that in real life you'd be fired before the pieces hit the floor.

 

If you choose to take the job, you also accept what is expected of you. You don't get a free pass just because "mods are people too", if anything they should be held to higher standards since they hold authority and are therefore representative of the organization as a whole. When I was a cadet, I was held to higher and higher standards as I got promoted up the chain because I became a more visible representative as my rank went up. And let me tell you, if I was an outsider looking in at this forum and saw representatives being so overbearing and nitpicky, I'd turn right around and leave some harsh snark on the ED page on my way out. Did you know that we once had a Global who was openly homophobic and condemned people to death here? People were giving him a free pass and used the "mods are people too" excuse.

 

He's not on the mod team anymore.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Walker]

Your logic breaks down when you remember that mods are people who applied for and accepted the job. Many, many extremely levelheaded ordinary users here opted not to apply for moderator positions even if they'd been mods elsewhere in the past (myself included, I was once a player moderator on RuneScape and yes, I had to abandon my personality while modding, and yes, I also effectively became a mute when I was just playing the game) because we chose not to take that job. If they're unable to do their jobs, which are often delicate and require very careful handling and mental fortitude, they should not be doing that job at that time and should have someone else handle it. That includes, especially, modding while in a bad mood. If your job requires handling and fixing something extremely delicate, you do not hit it with a sledge hammer and call it done just because you get flustered. Ever. If you did that in real life you'd be fired before the pieces hit the floor.

 

If you choose to take the job, you also accept what is expected of you. You don't get a free pass just because "mods are people too", if anything they should be held to higher standards since they hold authority and are therefore representative of the organization as a whole. And let me tell you, if I was an outsider looking in at this forum and saw representatives being so overbearing and nitpicky, I'd turn right around and leave some harsh snark on the ED page on my way out.

We have no free pass. We get warned; we get reprimanded; we get corrected. Same as anyone else. Just cause it doesn't happen publicly doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And it doesn't happen publicly because we get the same courtesy as users: warns kept private.

 

And, in the long run, TJ doesn't WANT us faceless, or he'd never have created Ask-a-Mod. Once again, we can't have faceless and less machine cut-and-paste answers at the same time. You guys want honesty, erasing the face of the mod is not the way.

[Lythiaren]

I can name at least two mods who were openly hostile to users for extended periods of time, Walker. They aren't mods anymore but I'd be lying if I said their behaviour and the fact that they never ever changed until the day they left didn't permanently colour my perception of the mod team.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Walker]

I can name at least two mods who were openly hostile to users for extended periods of time, Walker. They aren't mods anymore but I'd be lying if I said their behaviour and the fact that they never ever changed until the day they left didn't colour my perception of the mod team.

Don't hold the problems of past moderators against people who are around today. We are not them and vice versa. I really don't wish to be judged as someone I'm not.

[Lythiaren]

I wasn't making a judgement on you, but I'll judge the crap out of the modding policies when I remember that mods were allowed to get away with that kind of blatant power abuse. People are afraid to report mods because a mod can see when one of their own posts was reported.

[Spelunker]

I agree with Walker, though I think Lyth has a point- people who have had bad experiences in the past are NOT going to want to cooperate with a mod team that is being cold.

[Fizzix]

Lyth: it happened in the past. It's not happening now. Please don't bring it up as current forum feedback if you're not currently experiencing this problem.

[Lythiaren]

I beg to differ, Fizz. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

And the fact that there are apologists trying to excuse all cases of bad modding as "they were just having a bad day" as if we exist only for use as mods' punching bags when they have "bad days" is a symptom of that.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Fizzix]

We're doing what we can to avoid that. Depersonalizing ourselves won't help that any more than depersonalizing anyone else. In fact, having personality helps the users feel comfortable approaching us. We're not robots, we're people who can be talked to if you need help.

[Lythiaren]

Denouncing the logic of "mods should be excused because they're people too" is not the same as telling you guys to be robots.

 

Person != should be blindly forgiven for every misstep no matter how severe

Person == should be offered understanding but needs to be held responsible for their mistakes

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Walker]

We're not excused. We do get punishments, but there should be no double standard. We shouldn't have to have our punishments aired for all to see. We have the same right as a member in that regard.

[Lythiaren]

You can see right up there a person excusing you guys of all misdeeds. A mechanism existing does not mean it will be used; people are afraid to retaliate against people with authority, and they do exactly what I was arguing against up there to justify turning a blind eye. But really, how often does a mod get reported? I'd wager not often. And you can bet it's not because you guys are perfect; this conversation wouldn't be happening if you were. I guarantee you a factor is that they fear targeted backlash.

 

EDIT: hi new page

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[demonicvampiregirl]

Lyth: it happened in the past. It's not happening now. Please don't bring it up as current forum feedback if you're not currently experiencing this problem.

I can see Lyths point on why she brought it up though even after only reading this page. Mods don't seem to get reported much if they do step out of line anywhere and I think it should be understood around here that if you think a mod is being abusive, even if it is just slightly, that the users should not feel afraid to report them.

 

Also I think something should be in place that if by chance one gets mad and starts targeting the user they are held responsible for doing that. (I know that is probably a very rare thing but sometimes it can and will happen!)

Edited March 24, 2013 by demonicvampiregirl

[Starscream]

We are human

We are imperfect beings.

We may make errors.

We Do have bad days.

we do have good days.

We have Issues that may crop up

We may have school

We may have parents, friends, family with cancer or other illnesses

If we are out of line then things happen.

We do get reported

we do get managed with.

We do get warns

we do get spoken to by powers that be.

We are allowed to keep privacy as any user.

We do strive to aim for equal treatment between users and staff.

Because people do not see it does not mean it doesn't happen.

 

When we do our jobs,

we won't be liked

It's our job to take this

we understand the difficulty in Mod/user relation

We sometimes seem scary

We create ask a mod thread to try to break that wall

We want to help

We want to understand people

We want to be there for people

We will listen if someone needs to get something off their chest.

We love the users

We chose the job

We love dragon cave.

We do the job.

 

I may not respond again, it is not my wish to argue, but it is my wish to speak my mind. Perhaps this may not speak for every mod, but it definitely speaks for me. These are my only words.

 

 

 

[demonicvampiregirl]

My point was that maybe not every user knows that they can report a mod if they are out of line. I have not seen a mod step out of line or anything but some people may assume that mods are exempt from being reported.

[Lythiaren]

I'm not disputing that.

 

But you guys have a responsibility that you volunteered to take on and no one's going to ever convince me I can't hold you responsible if you mess up, because you volunteered to do it. You agreed to become a representative and if one of you chooses to do something extremely negative that reflects poorly on the rest of the team they must be held responsible.

 

Any one of you hiding behind someone parroting the phrase "mods are people toooooo!!!" reflects very poorly. That very phrase undermines the authority you took on. If you want to be treated as human beings you need to act like people who are responsible and mature enough to not only take the backlash that comes with making human mistakes in this job you volunteered for, but to make amends for those mistakes instead of sweeping them under the rug. And that's not hard! All it takes is an apology PM, reversing a warn if applicable. That's a human response.

 

But what actually happens when we dispute warns we don't think we deserved? Non-answers. Question dodging. "You were wrong because I said so." Blaming us for the fight even if we didn't start it, or even if there was no fight to begin with. Condescending "you should know better"s. Total stoppage of dialog when pressed. I once got warned for posting in caps in a humorous fashion and it came paired with a belittling nettiquette "lesson" as if I wasn't older than the Internet. Those responses? Robotic or prideful, take your pick. But that's not a good practice, not at all.

 

I don't want to believe that TJ recruited a bunch of irresponsible cowards. No one wants to think that. No one wants us to think that. But when I see someone whiteknighting for the mods I can't help but catch a flicker of that image in the back of my mind and I don't want it there. You're not supposed to be damsels in distress. You shouldn't need white knights if you're doing your job and you know yourself well enough to back off and put down the modding tools for a little while when you're in a bad mood. No one disputes a warn that they know they deserved.

 

And yes, part of the reason mods are seen as not doing their jobs properly is the lack of clear guidelines. If you can't settle a warn dispute by pointing out the specific section of the rules that have been broken*, there's a broken tool in your box. And Rule #1 is not a catch-all.

 

* There was a period where I was assigned to go around reporting rulebreakers as a psuedo-mod on Gaia; when I reported people I went through the ToS and the rules and found explicit items that were being broken. A sample report would be something like "Violation of ToS items 4.2 (hateful, racially insulting content), 4.8 (use of the site for illegal activities), 4.12 (linking to sexually explicit content)"

Edited March 24, 2013 by Lythiaren

[Zovesta]

JFK you guys have posted a lot since I last popped in here. hahhaa it's like the french revolution all up in 'ere 9u9 Who's Napoleon?

 

Yeah seriously though Lyth has earned my respect and backing once again. What Imbecamiel posted before about "Those who have more forceful personalities ... get frustrated. They thought they were restraining themselves ... and yet they found themselves getting in trouble anyway. So... since all that effort seemed to be wasted, and it looked like they were going to get in trouble either way without necessarily getting the opportunity to simply explain their intentions and set things right... they figure it doesn't really matter, and decide to take the easiest road from then on. Not necessarily being intentionally rude or breaking rules, but simply being blunt or phrasing things the way that comes most naturally to them." sums up my experience on the forums to a T. I used to be perfectly cordial awhile before I left, IMO, always made sure I dumbed myself down a fair bit, and yet I still got a fair few warns chucked my way. After that, I kinda gave up and just started posting naturally, which is normally seen as being either polite on some forums, or loud an obnoxious on others. Go figure.

 

Gettin to the point, no one has really given a solid response as to why the rules shouldn't be outlined more clearly and slackened up a bit (though you wouldn't even really to relax them if they didn't vary so much from topic to topic HMMM). Seriously, did I actually kill some people with my post on page 112. No one responded for ten days. Is there a specific reason, or are you guys just sort of tossing the idea around. If so, give us some notice!

 

the whole voting on mods thing i don't really like, same goes with the IRC. If we have to run to a chatroom to get things done then the forums aren't functioning properly lol. That's like going to a firebreather for gas to fill up your car because the gas station doesn't fill up CARS anymore. And I don't want this to be an attack on the mods, as we all know that would happen. I'm just having a problem with how the mods (or mod coughcough) are handling things. And it shouldn't be treated as a personal attack. Like, I dunno. If you get a job at McDonald's and people complain that the fries are too soggy you don't get pissed because THEY'RE INSULTING YOU AND ALL YOUR FRIENDS they're telling you to "hey stop making these fries so soggy bro". It's yer job. v(9_9)v

Edited March 24, 2013 by Zovesta