Wolves

[Rosedamai]

I do think you are getting a little hung up on the US thing. They clarified that they are talking primarily about US wolves and you are still taking it out on them.

To be fair, the reason why I dislike such blanket statements coming from primarily conservationists in the U.S is because I personally know people who've gone on trips to Mongolia and were viciously mauled by wolves. So, there's that.

[Nectaris]

To be fair, the reason why I dislike such blanket statements coming from primarily conservationists in the U.S is because I personally know people who've gone on trips to Mongolia and were viciously mauled by wolves. So, there's that.

And when they clarify that they are talking primarily about US wolves, that should not matter. The situations are extremely different and no one is denying that there may be a problem there. In the US, cougars attack CONSIDERABLY more people than wolves, yet you don't get the organized hunts for them that you do for wolves.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Nectaris

[Rosedamai]

And when they clarify that they are talking primarily about US wolves, that should not matter. The situations are extremely different and no one is denying that there may be a problem there. In the US, cougars attack CONSIDERABLY more people than wolves, yet you don't get the organized hunts for them that you do for wolves.

True. I was being a bit harsh there.

[igloo9201]

The difficult thing about wolves is that they are a threat to livestock and therefore to those who keep livestock and their finances. Hard to make a living if your product keeps getting killed. Moving them is difficult because they'll either move right back to the livestock or die if the environment is too much of a change for them (just different living situation, which they don't seem to be able to handle). It's an unfortunate situation which there doesn't seem to be a great solution to so far.

You make a good point. What I'm mostly referring to is mass aerial wolf hints and other wolf management. I realise that humans are more important than wolves, and this is how they make their living. But what I find so wrong is aerial hunting so that sport hunters can kill more game. Also, I find wolf hunting/trapping for sport isn't right. Wolf sport hunting/trapping in several states is, in my opinion, unnecessary.

 

And I thought that wolves easily adapted to new environments, but perhaps I was wrong. I can see how it would bre difficult for an entire pack to readjust, and I'll be looking into that.

[igloo9201]

And when they clarify that they are talking primarily about US wolves, that should not matter. The situations are extremely different and no one is denying that there may be a problem there. In the US, cougars attack CONSIDERABLY more people than wolves, yet you don't get the organized hunts for them that you do for wolves.

Wow! I hadn't thought of that!

 

Plus, US wolves have a "flight distance" of two miles. Of course, it's not uncommon for packs to adjust to this, and lone wolves are extremely dangerous compared to healthy packs.

 

And, coyotes don't have any extensive control programs, but they attack soooo many people! Especially children. And, as was mentioned, cougars as well. (Thanks for hat. I always need new points took argue)

[Obscure_Trash]

The problem is is that farmers and ranchers often over-exaggerate the problem and will kill anything that even MIGHT harm their livestock. For example, I know a lot of farmers that will kill any predator on sight, never mind that they are not even raising livestock and it couldn't possible pose any threat to them or their livelyhood.

I do agree the gun culture in this country is a huge problem.

 

And I thought that wolves easily adapted to new environments, but perhaps I was wrong. I can see how it would bre difficult for an entire pack to readjust, and I'll be looking into that.

 

I followed along a discussion about hunting wolves a while back, and I remember that because it was one of the things that really surprised me. =o

 

I think it's correct, anyway, and I think we're talking about the same type of wolf.

[igloo9201]

Awesome! And yes, Gray Wolves, Canis Lupus. North American. These are the only wolves I know a lot about. But I know quite a lot about them. I've been researching them for a loooong time.

[igloo9201]

I have to go to bed, sadly. But first, read this

http://www.defendersblog.org/2013/08/wolf-...ly-wrap-up-139/

And this

http://www.defendersblog.org/2012/08/wolf-weekly-wrap-up-88/

 

Good night.

 

[Nine]

In the US, cougars attack CONSIDERABLY more people than wolves, yet you don't get the organized hunts for them that you do for wolves.

Well, yes, because cougars still retain a portion of their historical range in the western U.S. Grey wolves are restricted to the northern borders around Canada and Alaska, so naturally cougars will encounter people more often. I believe mountain lion hunting is legal and permitted in much of the US (except CA?), so I'd counter that cougars are probably more hunted and persecuted than wolves.

 

I like wolves just fine-- they're pretty cool. I don't let the various, rabid fans ruin my enjoyment of an animal, 'cause that's whack. God-mode sparklewolves can be great for a laugh as well.

 

I just wish those people who seem so fervent to advocate and protect the (otherwise) lower-risk grey wolf would take their passion and put it to better use with animals that are in critical, S.O.S, 'they're gonna be gone before you knew they existed' situations. Like vultures, or rhinos, or gharial, or sawfish. In the very least they could look into advocating the Dhole or Ethiopian wolf or whatever, if they're specifically adamant in helping some kind of canine. There's so many awesome critters out there, it's a shame so many people have narrowed their focus on a small selection.

[Nectaris]

I like wolves just fine-- they're pretty cool. I don't let the various, rabid fans ruin my enjoyment of an animal, 'cause that's whack. God-mode sparklewolves can be great for a laugh as well.

 

I just wish those people who seem so fervent to advocate and protect the (otherwise) lower-risk grey wolf would take their passion and put it to better use with animals that are in critical, S.O.S, 'they're gonna be gone before you knew they existed' situations. Like vultures, or rhinos, or gharial, or sawfish. In the very least they could look into advocating the Dhole or Ethiopian wolf or whatever, if they're specifically adamant in helping some kind of canine. There's so many awesome critters out there, it's a shame so many people have narrowed their focus on a small selection.

I said it earlier, but I think it was missed, but people, at least in the US, care more about wolves because they can do more about them because they are nearby. It is hard to care and/or do something about an animal that is half the world away from you.

 

And from a single post, you also don't know what someone else supports. I for one do more to support feline species than canine, but you wouldn't know that because this is discussing wolves. I also have helped by donating to a group breeding Attwater's Prarie Chickens, but again, you wouldn't know that reading this thread.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Nectaris

[Nine]

I wasn't really referring to you or anyone else who posted in this thread. I was speaking in a broad sense about people who are highly passionate about the protection of one specific, high-profile species, but little else. It's entirely in their power to do so, but I still find it a shame and not the greatest use of passionate environmentalism.

[7Deadly$ins]

Wolves need population management just like anything else. No one is advocating an extinction of wolves in Northern America.

[igloo9201]

Well, yes, because cougars still retain a portion of their historical range in the western U.S. Grey wolves are restricted to the northern borders around Canada and Alaska, so naturally cougars will encounter people more often. I believe mountain lion hunting is legal and permitted in much of the US (except CA?), so I'd counter that cougars are probably more hunted and persecuted than wolves.

 

I like wolves just fine-- they're pretty cool. I don't let the various, rabid fans ruin my enjoyment of an animal, 'cause that's whack. God-mode sparklewolves can be great for a laugh as well.

 

I just wish those people who seem so fervent to advocate and protect the (otherwise) lower-risk grey wolf would take their passion and put it to better use with animals that are in critical, S.O.S, 'they're gonna be gone before you knew they existed' situations. Like vultures, or rhinos, or gharial, or sawfish. In the very least they could look into advocating the Dhole or Ethiopian wolf or whatever, if they're specifically adamant in helping some kind of canine. There's so many awesome critters out there, it's a shame so many people have narrowed their focus on a small selection.

But Cougars aren't mass hunted is the point.

 

And I agree, it seems silly to only care about wolves when there is such a strong population of them. I also support big cats, cetateans, red wolves, and some other stuff.

 

~Removed~

Edited September 10, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[TheAkatsuki]

Eh. People tend to hate/dislike wolves because they're overrated and what not. I don't care about that, and personally love them just as I love any other animal.

Edited September 9, 2013 by TheAkatsuki

[igloo9201]

Yeah. I don't know why people keep saying wolves are overrated. Probably because of all the anime wolves and such.

[Rosedamai]

Yeah. I don't know why people keep saying wolves are overrated. Probably because of all the anime wolves and such.

Possibly because many conservation efforts are focused on big animals, those at the upper end of the chain. Not saying that they don't need saving, or that they aren't important to the ecosystem as a whole, but, a lot of the conservationists I've met seem to think that there is only one source of ecological disruption, in which there are too little predators at the top of the chain to keep down the prey populations. Which does happen, to be sure.

 

However, there are far more dangerous events that could arise when the prey population significantly dwindles. Take, for example, the mass deaths of amphibians and bees. Imho, bees dying off in massive numbers are a far more bigger concern than, say, pandas or tigers, and too little is being done to address the issue. Which can lead to people saying that those predators at the top receive too much attention.

[igloo9201]

I have to agree with that. If the supplier (plant life at the bottom of the food chain) dies out, prey dies. If prey dies, predators die. Then there's nothing left. Bees are what keeps the supplier alive. Too much focus on wolves, not enough on bees= destruction of the ecosystem that they were apparently trying to preserve. Very good point.

[TheAkatsuki]

Possibly because many conservation efforts are focused on big animals, those at the upper end of the chain. Not saying that they don't need saving, or that they aren't important to the ecosystem as a whole, but, a lot of the conservationists I've met seem to think that there is only one source of ecological disruption, in which there are too little predators at the top of the chain to keep down the prey populations. Which does happen, to be sure.

 

However, there are far more dangerous events that could arise when the prey population significantly dwindles. Take, for example, the mass deaths of amphibians and bees. Imho, bees dying off in massive numbers are a far more bigger concern than, say, pandas or tigers, and too little is being done to address the issue. Which can lead to people saying that those predators at the top receive too much attention.

I don't see why everyone is even debating this. The OP started this thread for us to state our opinions on wolves, not debate which animal is more important.

All animals are important.

And actually, why do we humans even feel it's our duty to control the population of animals? We kill countless of animals for the sake of "population control." In nature, animals would probably do this themselves. But we (as in humans) took control over their habitats and now kill them to keep their population "in control." For "our" own sake.

Let me put it this way; imagine if animals were dominant and humans were the species of "less importance." Then one day animals decided: "Hey, there's been an awful lot of humans lately, let's kill some to put them in their place"

Knowing the world we're living in today, this is never likely to change, and I'm aware of that. It's merely my own personal opinion and I don't think people should mingle with animals as much as they do. They're independent species of their own and they don't need our help. Most certainly they don't want us killing off their siblings or family members for population control. If any of them do happen to be in need, it's usually our fault. Animals get injured, hurt, and all of the sort as a result of car accidents, animal abuse, etc. most of the time.

Edited September 9, 2013 by TheAkatsuki

[Rosedamai]

I don't see why everyone is even debating this. The OP started this thread for us to state our opinions on wolves, not debate which animal is more important.

All animals are important.

And actually, why do we humans even feel it's our duty to control the population of animals? We kill countless of animals for the sake of "population control." In nature, animals would probably do this themselves. But we (as in humans) took control over their habitats and now kill them to keep their population "in control." For "our" own sake.

Let me put it this way; imagine if animals were dominant and humans were the species of "less importance." Then one day animals decided: "Hey, there's been an awful lot of humans lately, let's kill some to put them in their place"

Knowing the world we're living in today, this is never likely to change, and I'm aware of that. It's merely my own personal opinion and I don't think people should mingle with animals as much as they do. They're independent species of their own and they don't need our help. Most certainly they don't want us killing off their siblings or family members for population control. If any of them do happen to be in need, it's usually our fault. Animals get injured, hurt, and all of the sort as a result of car accidents, animal abuse, etc.

Oh no-I'm not saying that we need to debate on which animals are more important, and so on, igloo asked why people may feel overrated, and I explained why. That's all.

[TheAkatsuki]

Oh no-I'm not saying that we need to debate on which animals are more important, and so on, igloo asked why people may feel overrated, and I explained why. That's all.

Yeah- Not particularly you alone, many people seem to have been discussing this earlier on. I'm sorry if I came off to sound rude.

I think the biggest reason for wolves being considered overrated is because of the internet actually- A lot of people RP as wolves, draw wolves, talk about wolves ETC. They can be found in a lot of corners of the web and some people get tired of seeing them I guess. I personally avoid these things- I like the animal for what it truly is.

Edited September 9, 2013 by TheAkatsuki

[igloo9201]

Actually, killing an alpha (and hunters don't know how to tell which one s the alpha) will trigger panic breeding and all together chaos in packs. Hmmmm.....also, just saying, because I know some people doubt my sources (understandable) I've read several books and observed real wolves (yeeeesh very fun). And played with the puppies! They licked mah face! Of course, these are captive wolves, but the people who work there talk about wild wolves and I've learned a lot there. I also receive their newsletter, which always has a section deicated to wolf onservatio. I've also read a bunch of factual stuff on wikipedia and defender. I know most, if not all, that I know about wolf conservation from defenders and the wolf place I go to. I've also watched a billion shows about wolves on animal planet and nat geo wild. I own two pretty big books about wolves, but can't remember the authors to save my life! It is my dream to train orcas at SeaWorld, Orlando Florida. If this doesn't work, there's a large chance that I would go into some kind of conservation,preferably cetateans or wolves.

 

Sorry, but iI just love fun facts! And I apologize, but I can only debate in the mornings until I clean my stupid room! I'll do it tommorow........parents.......

[Rosedamai]

Speaking of wolves, what do you think about the sudden rise in popularity of wolf dogs?

[igloo9201]

Bad, bad, bad, very bad! I myself would love to have a wolf dog! But, sadly, the general public misunderstanding the needs of them. Most people think that since it's half dog, it will behave like a dog. However, you can have one pup that acts like a pure dog and one pup that acts like a pure wolf in the same litter. I have nothing against people who get hybrids after extensive research and preparation, but the people who don't know what they're doing end up with either

An eaten sofa (actually 100℅ likely if you keep the thing n your house)

Dead pets (cat, hamsters, small dogs=lunch!)

Or, in the worst case, a dead/injured child or a severely injured adult.

Hybrids should never

Live in the house, unless it's extremely dog like.

Be left alone with children (even if it's been okay with children before....I have a story about this, actually)

Be kept on a chain.

[Infinis]

Speaking of wolves, what do you think about the sudden rise in popularity of wolf dogs?

Honestly I would not recommend ANY pet/wild animal hybrids to anyone unless they knew what they were getting into and knew what they were doing. Pet/wild animal hybrids can be extremely dangerous. Bandwagoning with things like this is because it's somehow "cool" to own a potentially dangerous animal is what gets people mauled and/or killed and the animals in question persecuted.

 

And when they clarify that they are talking primarily about US wolves, that should not matter. The situations are extremely different and no one is denying that there may be a problem there. In the US, cougars attack CONSIDERABLY more people than wolves, yet you don't get the organized hunts for them that you do for wolves.

 

Cougars attack people because people invade, and cougars are highly territorial. The same could be said for wolves, but I'd also venture that wolves are significantly more capable of moving elsewhere than cougars.

 

The difficult thing about wolves is that they are a threat to livestock and therefore to those who keep livestock and their finances. Hard to make a living if your product keeps getting killed. Moving them is difficult because they'll either move right back to the livestock or die if the environment is too much of a change for them (just different living situation, which they don't seem to be able to handle). It's an unfortunate situation which there doesn't seem to be a great solution to so far.

 

I see this problem like this:

 

I question why wolves are going after the livestock in the first place. Part of it is the easy prey factor, yes, but you also have to look at what the ranchers are doing to CAUSE that behaviour. Ranchers sometimes move into wolf territory, wittingly or not, in effect causing their own problems, and then they complain about it, which as far as I'm concerned is laughable at best.

I have no sympathy for ranchers who do this wittingly and then complain that their livestock is being attacked by a wolf population that was there first. (I imagine better and/or higher fencing could be a big help, too, not those silly flimsy things I always see that could let anything but large livestock through...>.>)

 

You make a good point. What I'm mostly referring to is mass aerial wolf hints and other wolf management. I realise that humans are more important than wolves, and this is how they make their living. But what I find so wrong is aerial hunting so that sport hunters can kill more game. Also, I find wolf hunting/trapping for sport isn't right. Wolf sport hunting/trapping in several states is, in my opinion, unnecessary.

 

Wolves need population management, but I imagine that if we culled the prey population somewhat then the predator populations would fall accordingly because there's less for them to eat. This is where non-sport hunters could be useful.

 

For the record, I don't consider myself more important than the life in the outside, though. All life is important in some way, even though I still totally kill bugs.

 

Sport hunting (and trophy hunting) is stupid and ridiculous. If you're going to kill something, have some manners and take the whole carcass home. One could always sell the meat and whatever else isn't wanted. But this probably a discussion for a different topic ^^

 

But, as a whole, the US does need wolves. I'm not talking about cities, where wolves would turn into coyotes and attack people. I mean places like Alaska and Yellowstone, where wolves are 100℅ needed.

 

Wolves and coyotes are of the same genus Canis but they are different species (the common grey wolf being Canis lupus and the common coyote Canis latrans). Wolves do not "turn into" coyotes because they're in cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_wolf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

 

And for the record there have been wolf hunts in Alaska, too, and the last time I read about them, the Yellowstone pack was doing rather well, but I don't remember how long ago I read about them.

 

I have to agree with that. If the supplier (plant life at the bottom of the food chain) dies out, prey dies. If prey dies, predators die. Then there's nothing left. Bees are what keeps the supplier alive. Too much focus on wolves, not enough on bees= destruction of the ecosystem that they were apparently trying to preserve. Very good point.

 

Just to point something out: things can be pollinated by humans instead of bees. I believe there is one place in Asia IIRC where this already has to be done because there aren't bees left. However, it is an extremely time consuming and difficult task from what I understand, and it really makes you appreciate what you no longer have.

 

Wolves seem "overrated" because they are so well-liked. I like them because they're majestic and pretty. U: (And wolf puppies are so cute ;a; )

[Syaoransbear]

Speaking of wolves, what do you think about the sudden rise in popularity of wolf dogs?

I don't mind it because there are breeders out there trying to create lines that are easier to handle and more dog-like. I think it's better than people stealing pups from dens in the wild. People have been wanting dogs that resemble wolves for forever, I'll be glad when there's some solid lines out there that create animals with the exact appearance of wolves but are as manageable as a dog. The Tamaskan and the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog are some good attempts, but still way too dog-like imo.

 

But I think all of those wolf shows are creating too much demand and too many backyard breeders or people who are claming their huskies are wolfdogs. It's literally every day that someone on the german shepherd forum posts a picture of some mixed dog claiming it's a wolfdog, or some person on the wolfdog forum posts a picture of their mixed dog claiming it's 98% wolf and they have "papers to prove it" . I've never seen all the popular supernatural shows that feature wolves so I don't know what kind of false information they are spreading, but they are really causing problems. Wolfdog breeding was already tricky before it was trendy.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Syaoransbear