Abortion

[Fuzzbucket]

As I understood the miscarriage bit, you may be required to prove it was a genuine miscarriage and not in some way self- induced. Like - you deliberately crashed your car to get rid of the pregnancy. I can actually see some of those guys saying you did SO.....

[Starscream]

I am glad I am not in that place. Anyone telling me what I can and cannot do with my body would be utterly gutted.

[Cecona]

Alabama has the worst of it, the bill they just voted in only gives exceptions to women that will die if they continue to be pregnant. So that means a 12 year old girl that lives in Alabama and gets raped by her uncle or dad and ends up pregnant is NOT eligible for an abortion unless she will die from it- not including if she chooses to commit suicide. They are making abortion illegal at ALL stages.

[Brite]

It's definitely becoming a government-enforced thing. I used to think people were this stubborn and crazy (and many really are), but I've learned that it's basically a pushed agenda that nobody, not even the majority of pro-lifers asked/voted for. I fear this is yet another pre-war on women happening.

 

As for me, I would LOVE to get that glorious sterilizing procedure, but as many have stated, it's downright near impossible for young women to receive this. However, I'm grateful that my body is able to handle one of the best BC methods out there; five years ago I had an IUD put in—a device that either works for you or doesn't. I had a new one put in and plan to keep this method until I can finally be graced with that permanent procedure. My SO hates kids as much as I do, and I'd scrape up the money for an abortion in a heartbeat if it ever came to that.  But what terrifies me is this ridiculous agenda of "let's bring back abortion bans for all states like the dark ages!" 

 

And don't get me started on that new "Unwanted" movie coming out that "exposes" Planned Parenthood, created by biased liars weaving up false info for the nth time. 

 

My prediction? These new laws WILL disappear, but only when a considerable amount of women die trying to force-miscarry and/or go for back-ally abortions. Either way, there will be deaths and pro-birthers will turn a blind eye until it's their daughter or mother or sister ect. who perishes because of an unwanted pregnancy. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by GhostChilli

[JavaTigress]

On 5/17/2019 at 12:12 PM, spatio said:

Thing is, I'm not entirely sure how Georgia plans on enforcing that?  People travel between states all the time, and it's not like every time someone gets pregnant they report it to their local law enforcement.  They'd have to require the doctors in other states to report back to GA authorities that a woman from GA had an abortion, and I'm not an expert on politics, but I'm pretty sure one state can't make a law applicable only to people who don't even live in that state.  The only way they would know would be if GA ob/gyns had to report that their patient appears to have miscarried/aborted a pregnancy the Dr. was previously were unaware of, and that sounds like a major patient privacy violation. 

 

So... I guess it's just for people who feel like turning themselves in, or people maliciously reporting other people?  Even then I'm not sure how they could prove one person's claim that another person had had an abortion without, again, some major patient privacy law violations.

 

And literally wtf on making miscarriage illegal? So, even if you really wanted a baby, and had planned on a pregnancy, but got in a car accident/etc and were severely injured and ended up miscarrying, you'd be punished on top of your health care bills?  I need to read this for myself.  Because, if that's the case, that's not anti-abortion, that's just plain oppression against women (and their partners, who also wanted a kid... literally just what??)

This is my thought on "Georgia going after women that have abortions in other states."

 

IF it isn't against the law where the abortion happened... I don't see what they can really do?

That would be like the police in Wisconsin, for example, arresting you because you smoked pot in Colorado ( where, as I understand it, it is NOT against the law).

Assuming you aren't under the influence or have any with you in Wisconsin, of course.

 

I don't think it can be done AND.... abortion issue aside, I think a LOT of people would object to the states being able to interfere with each other like that. 

It wouldn't END well, I feel pretty sure.

 

State Laws are NOT FEDERAL Laws. AFAIK ONLY apply in the state that has them ( Others may correct me if I am wrong, of course?)

Edited May 23, 2019 by JavaTigress

[Fuzzbucket]

Considering that it seems that someone from another country who (may have) killed a citizen of France but not in France can be charged and tried in France, where he does not and never has lived, and where the crime did not take place.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/26/theyre-going-to-bonfire-me-french-trial-for-briton-over-film-makers-death

 

I fear you may indeed be wrong,. Same in N Ireland, where until recently, and I'm not sure of the current position, you can be charged and convicted for getting a legal abortion in mainland Britain...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48044805

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40271763

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/15/abortion-law-harsher-northern-ireland-alabama-campaigners

 

I'm not sure if you can still be charged when you return after having an abortion in mainland Britain, but you certainly used to be able to.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Fuzzbucket

[JavaTigress]

4 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Considering that it seems that someone from another country who (may have) killed a citizen of France but not in France can be charged and tried in France, where he does not and never has lived, and where the crime did not take place.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/26/theyre-going-to-bonfire-me-french-trial-for-briton-over-film-makers-death

 

I fear you may indeed be wrong,. Same in N Ireland, where until recently, and I'm not sure of the current position, you can be charged and convicted for getting a legal abortion in mainland Britain...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48044805

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40271763

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/15/abortion-law-harsher-northern-ireland-alabama-campaigners

 

I'm not sure if you can still be charged when you return after having an abortion in mainland Britain, but you certainly used to be able to.

MMMM... but murder is still a CRIME, most likely, where the murder took place.

 

Interesting info and I could see the situation creating some sort of legal battle?

The thing to remember is that US states are still quite...jealous ...of what they consider to be their powers. 

 

I don't claim to be an expert on law or anything like that of course.

 

After having READ some of the articles, it sounds like the situation with N. Ireland, bad as it is, is sort of... an unusual one and is being massively criticized and pressured to change. I presume that it either has or will.  I ought also add that as the case of the French citizens death... interesting case BUT extradition is always a battle. It sounds to ME like France is maybe sort of desperate to close the case... which, IMO, can be a PROBLEM if they aren't careful to make SURE they have the right person?

 

In any case, interesting points.

 

As you say... possible I am wrong, BUT I would also say I still forsee a fight if Georgia pushes it.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by JavaTigress

[spatio]

See, that's just it. It was a crime in both places, and was therefore reported to authorities of France.  If I flew to Colorado and murdered someone and immediately went home, I would get arrested no matter which state I went to, because cops in both states would be looking for me (since cops in Colorado would notify cops in my home state).  Getting in trouble for an abortion with this Georgia law would be like if I flew to Colorado, bought and smoked marijuana, and the shopkeeper I bought it from asked where I was from and called the police in my home state so that when I flew home (without any marijuana) I would be arrested.  There's just no way of enforcing it.

[Fuzzbucket]

OK - but the abortions done in the UK were not a crime in the UK, where they were done - but women were charged when they got back to Northern Ireland - which is even TECHNICALLY a part of the UK, but gets to have a different abortion law.

[spatio]

I'm more focused on the reporting issue. Georgia certainly CAN arrest you IF THEY KNOW you had an abortion in another state.

That would require a doctor in another state to break patient confidentiality laws to tell law enforcement in Georgia about a procedure their patient had done, though.

(or you to turn yourself in, or someone you told in confidence of an unwanted pregnancy to maliciously report you)

Edited May 27, 2019 by spatio

[Fuzzbucket]

Me too. But  - the self-righteous will be out to get you.

[JavaTigress]

1 hour ago, spatio said:

I'm more focused on the reporting issue. Georgia certainly CAN arrest you IF THEY KNOW you had an abortion in another state.

That would require a doctor in another state to break patient confidentiality laws to tell law enforcement in Georgia about a procedure their patient had done, though.

(or you to turn yourself in, or someone you told in confidence of an unwanted pregnancy to maliciously report you)

AND I doubt that a doc who DOES abortions is going to have enough of a problem with them to risk violating laws themselves to report on their patient in another state?

 

AND as of others maliciously informing on you... Yes, some people might. Frankly tho... Georgia's law is over the top ( AND I am not necessarily a friend of abortion and I am saying that. :P)

[hazeh]

I think the only way then would be if the person seeking an abortion told friends or family about the situation, who then proceeded to oust them to the authorities. Otherwise, there'd be no way for them to find out, as I highly doubt an abortion provider would turn over their patients to the authorities. 

 

Or, what frightens me, is the possibility that anti-abortion protesters will be taking photos of people who enter clinics to try and get them legally reprimanded if they happen to live in a state where it is considered illegal. 

[JavaTigress]

1 hour ago, hazeh said:

I think the only way then would be if the person seeking an abortion told friends or family about the situation, who then proceeded to oust them to the authorities. Otherwise, there'd be no way for them to find out, as I highly doubt an abortion provider would turn over their patients to the authorities. 

 

Or, what frightens me, is the possibility that anti-abortion protesters will be taking photos of people who enter clinics to try and get them legally reprimanded if they happen to live in a state where it is considered illegal. 

Even THEN, said protesters would need to KNOW that said individual lived in such a state.

[hazeh]

2 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

Even THEN, said protesters would need to KNOW that said individual lived in such a state.

Not necessarily. It is sadly very easy to identify individuals through photos on the internet, and if there are people determined to doxx anyone seeking an abortion, I don't doubt they would be able to. These people are malicious enough to try to and expose everyone they happen to photograph, especially in surrounding states of Georgia/Alabama. I wouldn't be surprised if there are groups banding together to do just this. 

[JavaTigress]

3 minutes ago, hazeh said:

Not necessarily. It is sadly very easy to identify individuals through photos on the internet, and if there are people determined to doxx anyone seeking an abortion, I don't doubt they would be able to. These people are malicious enough to try to and expose everyone they happen to photograph, especially in surrounding states of Georgia/Alabama. I wouldn't be surprised if there are groups banding together to do just this. 

Meh, maybe I am lazy.... but frankly, that seems like WAY to much effort to go through.

 

Still, you have a point to some extent, however. Couldn't charges be brought against someone doing such a thing, tho, on the grounds that it violated patient's privacy.

Such things are taken pretty seriously, AFAIK.

[hazeh]

Just now, JavaTigress said:

Meh, maybe I am lazy.... but frankly, that seems like WAY to much effort to go through.

 

Still, you have a point to some extent, however. Couldn't charges be brought against someone doing such a thing, tho, on the grounds that it violated patient's privacy.

Such things are taken pretty seriously, AFAIK.

Maybe it is, but so is showing up at a clinic every day to scream at people who enter it. 

 

I don't know. I feel like that only extends to the medical professionals, since they are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality. But random individuals on the street aren't. 

[JavaTigress]

13 minutes ago, hazeh said:

Maybe it is, but so is showing up at a clinic every day to scream at people who enter it. 

 

I don't know. I feel like that only extends to the medical professionals, since they are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality. But random individuals on the street aren't. 

Could be, i am not sure PRECISELY on all of that.

 

However, I would say That in my experience... I work in a Walgreen's Pharmacy.NOT in the actual pharmacy part of it,mind you, but I am still required to make sure that any pharmacy related patient information, for example, is properly disposed of if I find it left laying, for instance. I would have to think SOMETHING could be brought against someone trying to maliciously use another person's medical history against them. THAT might even be a Federal issue, actually. Which is to say it might well be able to be taken over the heads of BOTH states. Again, speculation on my part.

 

As I said... In the end it might end up being a question of what state gets the final say.

WAR has been fought over where a State's rights extended in times past, after all.

 

While I hope it wouldn't escalate that far, I COULD see it turning into an ugly legal battle, for sure.

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by JavaTigress

[Starscream]

Canadian Clinics are very secret.

[JavaTigress]

2 minutes ago, Starscream said:

Canadian Clinics are very secret.

How does a person who.... feels they are in need of the services of such a clinic find them, then? * Is genuinely curious*

[Starscream]

8 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

How does a person who.... feels they are in need of the services of such a clinic find them, then? * Is genuinely curious*

they are directed to them by their medical practitioner -  who will not deny them the request for this information regardless of their personal or religious bias. you then make an appointment an get to the clinic. Its a free service and very safe service

[Fuzzbucket]

14 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

Meh, maybe I am lazy.... but frankly, that seems like WAY to much effort to go through.

 

Still, you have a point to some extent, however. Couldn't charges be brought against someone doing such a thing, tho, on the grounds that it violated patient's privacy.

Such things are taken pretty seriously, AFAIK.

 

Members of the public are not bound by the patient privacy thing, and "Right to Lifers" are delighted to spend hours and hours on this kind of thing because they are zealots.

 

5 hours ago, Starscream said:

they are directed to them by their medical practitioner -  who will not deny them the request for this information regardless of their personal or religious bias. you then make an appointment an get to the clinic. Its a free service and very safe service

 

It is - but I think JavaTigress may have meant how would someone from the US find them.

 

I am not posting the information I have, given the  "Right to Lifers"  in this thread over the years - but if someone needs to know.... They are easy enough to find.

[JavaTigress]

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Members of the public are not bound by the patient privacy thing, and "Right to Lifers" are delighted to spend hours and hours on this kind of thing because they are zealots.

 

 

It is - but I think JavaTigress may have meant how would someone from the US find them.

 

I am not posting the information I have, given the  "Right to Lifers"  in this thread over the years - but if someone needs to know.... They are easy enough to find.

I didn't mean specifically someone from the US..... just in general.

 

Like... how would they give the information tot hose that seemed to need it without revealing it to those whose attention would be... undesirable to the clinic. 

I think that question was more or less addressed acceptably.

 

AND as someone who mostly considers them self to be an opponent of abortion tho... I can fully agree that the antics you hear about from some of these protesters are.... out of line and distasteful. Like... shouting and harassing women outside of a clinic , for instance, is just making what I think is already an unfortunate situation all the worse. I guess I am not a 'zealot' as you put it. AS I see it, an abortion is an invasive procedure with the potential for complications and side effects... I presume that people wouldn't have them just for 'kicks and lulz' after all.  IF a woman decides to have one , she generally has reasons; I am aware of that. I think avoiding the situations that force women to have to make that choice is the better way to go. After all, we don't AGREE on precisely when a human life begins... that is a perfectly fair and valid point. Since we don't KNOW, I'd prefer to see better prevention of unwanted pregnancies in the first place than trying to enforce laws banning abortions that, ultimately CANNOT be enforced.  Better education and birth control, and YES, more freedom to opt for permanent sterilization for those that want it and know they will NEVER want to have a child ... or any MORE children(when any pregnancy will only EVER mean an abortion...)...I am absolutely all in favor of. And YES, I do understand that that won't prevent ALL situations, but again, neither will an outright BAN. AND I would LIKE to comment that I think some of those aforementioned antics gives those of us who are more rational in our objections to abortion a bad name. *Sigh* I just think it is a shame that people are so inclined to let their emotions get in the way on this issue ( And yes, I am looking at both sides of this debate when I say that. ) The Just my two cents, for whatever they are worth?

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by JavaTigress

[Lesh4537]

On 5/28/2019 at 12:34 PM, hazeh said:

Not necessarily. It is sadly very easy to identify individuals through photos on the internet, and if there are people determined to doxx anyone seeking an abortion, I don't doubt they would be able to. These people are malicious enough to try to and expose everyone they happen to photograph, especially in surrounding states of Georgia/Alabama. I wouldn't be surprised if there are groups banding together to do just this. 

Why take pictures of people when you can take pictures of licence plates? Whole lot easier to check vehicle registrations then faces.

 

If I'm not mistaken, most states require more then one doctor visit to have an abortion - the initial consultation, the actual procedure and aftercare. That is assuming there are no complications. Traveling once out of state would be incredibly difficult for most women, and impossible for some. Each additional trip would increase the chances of getting caught. So maybe it's a lot easier then previously assumed. 

 

It's nice to see everyone having a peaceful discussion about a very complex topic. Much better then most comment sections I glace through. 

[Shadowdrake]

I would like to note that a woman, Marshae Jones, was shot and survived but lost her 5-month fetus, and was convicted of manslaughter because of it while the shooter was let go. Because "she started it".

 

https://revolutionarykoolaid.tumblr.com/post/185890597603/

 

If you want more facts you can Google them as the case has been updated, but this is still unthinkable to have happened at all. Anti-abortion laws prioritize a mass of cells barely even alive over a thinking, feeling, intelligent person with their own needs and desires, and are extremely easy to twist so uterus-bearing people must either obey the whims of faceless lawmakers even in their private life or risk being punished for something as simple as a condom breaking.