Snow Angel wing switching

[Tini]

1 hour ago, MissK. said:

A one-time BSA specifically for eggs would probably be unintrusive enough at least. I think it might be interesting if it was the adult Snow Angels with the BSA, and they would apply it to an egg (one time per egg, short cooldown), so then people would need to own at least one adult with the scroll coded colour before being able to choose colours for eggs. Sort of how you need adult pinks before you can start influencing. However a one-time action on each egg works just fine as well.

im a little confused, this kinda reads as 'one use per snow angel adult' but I don't think that's actually what you mean. 'One-time BSA' reads as more like the pitfires than pinks, as you can only stab a pitfire once, but you can influence multiple times.

 
But I think you mean more or less this

On 12/29/2020 at 5:56 PM, Tinibree said:

I feel like mechanically the kids should naturally match their parent, but be able to be influenced by a different winged adult to have their wings instead. This would mean at least a year before you're able to influence them all by yourself, but if it works like pinks, you could swap with someone to influence the wings for each other and swap back on hatch.

 

[MissK.]

10 hours ago, Tinibree said:

im a little confused, this kinda reads as 'one use per snow angel adult' but I don't think that's actually what you mean. 'One-time BSA' reads as more like the pitfires than pinks, as you can only stab a pitfire once, but you can influence multiple times.

 
But I think you mean more or less this

 

 

Yes basically something like that. I just mean that if it is a BSA on the egg itself, as in you go to the egg's actions to use it, it would be a one-time thing to decide the colour. Maybe that's what fuzzbucket meant as well, so that we don't get issues of adults suddenly changing colours in lineages. However, in case there's issue with eggs having BSAs, then the action could be on the adults instead, and then applied to an egg just like influence like you said. Each egg would only be able to have its colour determined once, but the adult Snow Angel would have a short cooldown to be able to use the BSA again on another egg. 

 

Honestly none of the solutions are ideal to me, but with the way things were handled originally I think at least it might be an improvement.

Edited January 2, 2021 by MissK.

[Fuzzbucket]

I would never support a BSA given to an egg.

 

But yes, I did mean that the BSA should only be able to be used on an egg - so as not to wreck lineages. And like influence - only hold through teleport AFTER hatching.

[Murkydepths]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I would never support a BSA given to an egg.

 

But yes, I did mean that the BSA should only be able to be used on an egg - so as not to wreck lineages. And like influence - only hold through teleport AFTER hatching.

 

This seems the best thought out, seems kind of obvious if you think about it, xD. 

 

So then the trouble would be - can it be used on cbs? Would we 100% need to up the holiday cb limit if yes?

[MissK.]

3 minutes ago, Murkydepths said:

 

This seems the best thought out, seems kind of obvious if you think about it, xD. 

 

So then the trouble would be - can it be used on cbs? Would we 100% need to up the holiday cb limit if yes?

 

I don't see why it wouldn't apply to CBs. And while I support lifting the limit, I don't think the two are necessarily related. One could have bred adults, then influence CB eggs with them.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I guess it COULD be used on CBs, but no, I don't think that allows for a raising of the limit. That would never happen for a single breed, nor should it. Only up it if there is a rise for all limited holidays.

 

But I rather suspect TJ would prefer us to have scroll-determined CBs, to be honest. That was after all how they were created.

[MissK.]

Agreed on no limit change just for one breed.

 

And I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, but it also doesn't make much sense to make an action only available for non-CB eggs. We don't really have anything else like that do we? (I am genuinely trying to think if I'm forgetting something...) If TJ wants us to have only scroll-determined CBs maybe it makes more sense to just go with the option of Snow Angels having a set chance of being the colour of the parent.

[Murkydepths]

4 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I guess it COULD be used on CBs, but no, I don't think that allows for a raising of the limit. That would never happen for a single breed, nor should it. Only up it if there is a rise for all limited holidays.

 

But I rather suspect TJ would prefer us to have scroll-determined CBs, to be honest. That was after all how they were created.

 

Oh yeah I'd imagine it'd change all v day and christmas dragons to 4, which I think is still pretty reasonable. 

 

And maybe, the decision is his to make, but we've changed a lot of things about DC. I think it'd be a good change, we've been moving away from exclusivity a lot recently.

[Tetelestai]

Got my least favorite Snow Angel wing as well, but I'm not sure it'd be worth it to try to code that switch (trading and lineage nightmares). It'd be nice if the wing color depended on what condition it was hatched on, like the Siyat dragons. The collector in me would LOVE a set of each wings, adult and hatchies.

[Silence2]

Having lost my favorite form with the reroll, I would love something that would allow me to collect it and the other form as well.  I can't say I have any great suggestion on how, but I do like the idea of an egg BSA.

[DragonLady86]

It amuses me all the people in a snow angel thread wanting breed limits up to four. With 3 colors one would think six would be the minimum needed. (A pair of each)

 

Back on topic, I missed most of the original drama. I logged in saw TJs had grown up with gold wings and came back three days later to the forum having exploded. Lol. If I had to pick favorites then the white is my least preferred so if course, it's what I have. I wouldn't mind being able to collect the other colors even if they are more like stripes and bred-only. Just for completion sake.

[ShorahNagi]

As I stated earlier in the thread - No support for anything affecting CB Snow Angels of any kind (be they new or old)

 

The idea of a BSA that works on the egg has some merit (again though, limited to bred eggs) - as then someone with a Gold Wing scroll could continue a White/Gold wing lineage without messing up any existing lineages [Think like the Xol dragon - influencing determines if it will be red or blue]. If the BSA route was taken, I like the idea of it being given to Snow Angels.

 

Another option - treat the wings like Siyat eggs. What pattern is gotten from the egg is based on how long it sits [hatches between 4 to 3 days = White wing. Hatches between 3 to 2 days = Gold wing, Hatches between 2 days to 0 days = Tri-color (I've arranged them by what I perceive to be decorating time...It takes longer to color a white wing gold, and even longer to then add the accents of red/green)]

[Murkydepths]

42 minutes ago, ShorahNagi said:

As I stated earlier in the thread - No support for anything affecting CB Snow Angels of any kind (be they new or old)

 

The idea of a BSA that works on the egg has some merit (again though, limited to bred eggs) - as then someone with a Gold Wing scroll could continue a White/Gold wing lineage without messing up any existing lineages [Think like the Xol dragon - influencing determines if it will be red or blue]. If the BSA route was taken, I like the idea of it being given to Snow Angels.

 

Another option - treat the wings like Siyat eggs. What pattern is gotten from the egg is based on how long it sits [hatches between 4 to 3 days = White wing. Hatches between 3 to 2 days = Gold wing, Hatches between 2 days to 0 days = Tri-color (I've arranged them by what I perceive to be decorating time...It takes longer to color a white wing gold, and even longer to then add the accents of red/green)]

 

Why do you not like CBs being affected? 

 

And the siyat method could work, although people may be annoyed if they want a tricolour it means they have a slot being filled longer in a holiday when people want to get lots of eggs. 

[Shadowdrake]

I like the BSA idea. Snow angel coloring could easily be based on environment of the egg given them originally being scrollbound, and if they get a color-specific s2 they're like single-gender nebulas.

I don't have an opinion on whether CBs should be "influenceable" or not, but it wouldn't be the first or even third holiday breed to have some bizarre limitations between CB and lineaged dragons.

[ShorahNagi]

10 minutes ago, Murkydepths said:

Why do you not like CBs being affected?

In the case of existing CBs - I can see lineages getting all messed up as everyone suddenly changes to their preferred wing type.

 

In the case of future CBs - I don't feel it's fair to those of us who didn't get a choice and that it could lead to an 'imbalance' of sorts with wing colors (I understand my idea of them working like Siyats does give a player a way to choose BUT for newer players they might not understand the mechanic and older players may not want to go through release/recatching of new Snow Angels)

[Murkydepths]

1 minute ago, ShorahNagi said:

In the case of existing CBs - I can see lineages getting all messed up as everyone suddenly changes to their preferred wing type.

 

In the case of future CBs - I don't feel it's fair to those of us who didn't get a choice and that it could lead to an 'imbalance' of sorts with wing colors (I understand my idea of them working like Siyats does give a player a way to choose BUT for newer players they might not understand the mechanic and older players may not want to go through release/recatching of new Snow Angels)

 

I totally agree on the existing cbs one, I'm not suggesting anything that could change currently existing cbs.

 

And I think future cbs would be ok if we upped the limit of CB christmas/v day dragons we were allowed. I think 4 is a good number, that means old players get 2 of their original and one of each other wing colour. But truthfully I'd like to be able to get different wing colours on cbs even if they didn't up the limit, I think the impact to lineages and the effort of recapturing is worth having your favourite colour. That one is just my opinion though.

[pinkgothic]

I love the idea of a lineaged egg getting its parent's wing colouration by default, but being able to use an adult Snow Angel's BSA on one's scroll to influence the egg to have the adult's wing colouration.

 

(I wouldn't even mind if the BSA itself were given only to the CBs, so you can only ever influence an egg to be your scroll-coded colouration - the way to get others would then be not to use this BSA on lineages involving other Snow Angels. Might result in some interesting community dynamics with trading lines back and forth over several breeding seasons to get alternating patterns!)

 

11 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

It amuses me all the people in a snow angel thread wanting breed limits up to four. With 3 colors one would think six would be the minimum needed. (A pair of each)

I would suspect the reasoning is that, since these guys are single-gender and people likely already have two CB slots taken up by what was previously locked to one colouration, to get all three colourations as CB, you do in fact just need four CBs overall (=> 2 of the original colouration you got, 1 of another colouration, 1 of the final colouration).

[camelia2]

I never do Snow Angel lines or pick them up in AP because of their mechanic, even if as apearence they are 3rd favourite.

I also didn't got my favourite variation.

Because of this I would like very much for the mechanic to change.

-Breeding-true (parent's wing) is a 8/10 since it will affect unmatchy lines (that are not really commom, but still pretty)

-RPG (gemshard) is a 3/10 and a HELL since you can only breed 1/year ...but it would still allow me my Golden wing dream

-Scroll-collor hatching is a 7/10 since it has the issue of time, lying and AP hatchling picking BUT it can become a 9/10 and our best option IF there is also an update to the s2 hatchi wings (like Solstice has) so you can see what you picked/traded for at least in the s2 stage (similary to how you can only see gender in s2). We'd all have a chance to get the variation we want, can continue pretty lines with a little help from others and we don't mess with the CBs, fairness or mixed pattern lines. The only issue stays time but is okay. (We also get 3 new sprites to freeze! Yay! )

So will support this variant:

Scroll-lock the hatching color and update the s2 hatchi

 

edit: I just realised there is one more variant

-time-bound color (Solstice, Herald, Firegem) that is also a 9/10. Color of the wing depends on time egg was bred on. It allows lone-players to have all variations and needs no sprite update (but  I want new freezes) and you can calculate egg color based on t.o.d. for trading.

it comes with the issue of time zones and the mechanic being overused, but it works well for Solstice (even if hatchies could be unpredictable and people lie). CBs color should still be scroll locked though

Edited January 4, 2021 by camelia2

[pinkgothic]

2 hours ago, camelia2 said:

-Breeding-true (parent's wing) is a 8/10 since it will affect unmatchy lines (that are not really common, but still pretty)

What do you think of the variant where this is the default behaviour, but you can use an adult Snow Angel BSA to influence the egg to have a different wing colouration?  (In other words, to get alternating lines going, in year 1 of this being implemented, you'd grab some Snow Angels with different wing colourations, by using the default behaviour of the eggs you catch having the parent's wing colouration; in year 2 (or maybe already later in the year 1 breeding season if you time it right!) you would have adult Snow Angels to use on Snow Angel eggs.)

[camelia2]

40 minutes ago, pinkgothic said:

What do you think of the variant where this is the default behaviour, but you can use an adult Snow Angel BSA to influence the egg to have a different wing colouration?  (In other words, to get alternating lines going, in year 1 of this being implemented, you'd grab some Snow Angels with different wing colourations, by using the default behaviour of the eggs you catch having the parent's wing colouration; in year 2 (or maybe already later in the year 1 breeding season if you time it right!) you would have adult Snow Angels to use on Snow Angel eggs.)

Hmm, I feel is a bit complicated... They are suposed to work like pinks? Tricolor influences tricolor, gold does gold? Is there a failure rate? Can you apply this BSA on CBs too? It wears off at transfer? You do it as egg (incu) or as hatchi (stun)?

Also people that do mix pattern could loose 1 year with no option to 'misscolor'

Is not a bad ideia either, I would support it too but if I was to choose it wouldn't be the one I go with

[pinkgothic]

19 minutes ago, camelia2 said:

They are supposed to work like pinks? Tricolor influences tricolor, gold does gold?

Yes.

 

19 minutes ago, camelia2 said:

Is there a failure rate?

No, no one here has discussed a failure rate. No reason to have one.

 

19 minutes ago, camelia2 said:

Can you apply this BSA on CBs too?

I personally don't see why not, if they're indeed eggs at the time (i.e. someone first catches lineaged Snow Angels, and then, once they have adults, catch their CBs), but I don't care either way. CBs can continue to be special if people want that.

 

19 minutes ago, camelia2 said:

It wears off at transfer?

Of course. Practically all BSAs wear off at transfer (Stun is a weird partial exception, which only partially wears off - the stat gain block wears off, but the time gained remains), no reason to treat this any different. Quite the contrary - plenty reasons not to treat it differently, you don't want to pick up an egg from the AP that someone influenced and have no idea what it was influenced as. Might as well randomise the wings in that scenario (but please don't consider this a suggestion, it's not :P).

 

19 minutes ago, camelia2 said:

You do it as egg (incu) or as hatchi (stun)?

I personally don't care and would prefer it work on both (see above comment about the AP - since hatchlings have no indicators of wing colouration, they should revert back to default behaviour, just like eggs), but eggs have been discussed so far.

 

19 minutes ago, camelia2 said:

Also people that do mix pattern could loose 1 year with no option to 'misscolor'

Yes, I said that. But in the variant you mentioned you partially support with "8/10", they can't do mixed patterns at all, so this seems like a perplexing argument to make. ; What would you propose (assuming we don't get new hatchling sprites)?

Edited January 4, 2021 by pinkgothic

[camelia2]

@pinkghotic Personally I'd preffer CB would stay special.

 

Yes, it would be impossible indeed, that's why I gave it an 8. Is true that is not a large player base that does these lines so is not of catastrofal importance (only -2 points)

 

I allready said my preffered mechanic and if the hatcies won't be to change the BSA ideia is indeed the next best, just not my 1st option as a BSA coplicates things (yet another BSA, adding a BSA to an existant breed that requiers artist permission, you need to have the dragons to use the BSA, specific rules for this BSA) and I'd really want new hatchies 

Edited January 4, 2021 by camelia2

[soullessheartofsteel]

IMO, having a BSA be able to influence the eggs into having a certain wing pattern or being able to select wing patterns on new CBs seems a bit too convoluted to me, because you'd have to grandfather in the old snow angels and their mechanics to prevent disrupting lineages, and it would confuse a lot of newer players. I'm gonna second HeatherMarie and Painter here in that I think you can keep the default scroll color, and have the wing color be inherited. That way, your CBs will have the wing color determined by your scroll, but a snow angel you pick up from the AP or a trade will have their parent's color. Lineages that require a certain wing pattern won't be disrupted by color changes in ancestors or randomization in children, and people will be able to collect all three variants. They won't be CB, obviously, and I'm sure that's going to disappoint some people, but I feel like this is the least disruptive and least complicated solution. No BSAs, no upping CB limits, and no ruined lineages.

 

@Tinibree I don't feel like people lying about what variant they have is going to be a huge issue, because with the inheritance solution you could always just check the dragon's lineage and see what the parent has. No matter how many scrolls that egg has passed through and no matter who hatched it, it will always inherit its parent's color. It would only be an issue if the egg were CB and the user offering it doesn't have any other adult CB snow angels on their scroll. But I don't see how someone could benefit from lying about something like that. At the trading hub, people are gonna be cautious about who they trade with and explore their options, and on the forums, there are rules in place that can get users banned for scamming/lying to others. Adding an influence mechanic would certainly prevent any of this from happening, but I doubt dishonest traders will be such a big issue that it would necessitate creating a BSA to prevent it from happening.

Edited January 4, 2021 by soullessheartofsteel

[Tini]

1 minute ago, soullessheartofsteel said:

IMO, having a BSA be able to influence the eggs into having a certain wing pattern seems a bit too convoluted to me, because you'd have to grandfather in the old snow angels and their mechanics to prevent disrupting lineages

It's just adding an influence BSA, how is that convoluted? It's the least confusing way to do it. I have no idea what you're talking about with the grandfathering. A bsa to influence any egg, would mess with 0 lineages, that's the point. If you want another gold wing, its another gold wing, if you want to alternate wings with tri-color, its a tri-color. How does that mess with any lineage? We're specifically not messing with adults for that reason.

 

1 minute ago, soullessheartofsteel said:

but a snow angel you pick up from the AP or a trade will have their parent's color. Lineages that require a certain wing pattern won't be disrupted by color changes in ancestors or randomization in children, and people will be able to collect all three variants. No BSAs, no upping CB limits, and no ruined lineages.

If they only breed true you can't alternate the wings, ruining a number of lineages. Alternating wing lines are a thing that some people enjoy, we shouldn't just take that away from them.

 

1 minute ago, soullessheartofsteel said:

@Tinibree I don't feel like people lying about what variant they have is going to be a huge issue, because with the inheritance solution you could always just check the dragon's lineage and see what the parent has. No matter how many scrolls that egg has passed through and no matter who hatched it, it will always inherit its parent's color. It would only be an issue if the egg were CB and the user offering it doesn't have any other adult CB snow angels on their scroll. But I don't see how someone could benefit from lying about something like that.

We're talking about different things here. The suggestion I was talking about, was one where if you hatch an egg, the hatchie will have whatever your scroll is coded to have. So in that case, you can't just check user x's scroll, because who's to say user x is actually the one that hatched it? They could've gotten it from user y with a different wing color. That's all needlessly convoluted and I was against it.

 

I've seen someone doctor a precog screenshot, for a messy hatchie. I'm not saying everyone will lie, but some people will. I don't know why someone would lie about a messy hatchie either, but they did. 

 

1 minute ago, soullessheartofsteel said:

Adding an influence mechanic would certainly prevent any of this from happening, but I doubt dishonest traders will be such a big issue that it would necessitate creating a BSA to prevent it from happening.

Once again, it protects the most lineages. I'm more concerned with allowing whatever lineage you want to create to exist. If that's 6g that goes in the order of tri, gold, white wing, then I want you to be able to make that on your own. If they only breed true that's an impossible lineage.

[soullessheartofsteel]

@Tinibree Ah, forgive me, I definitely wasn't reading/processing something properly. I thought there was talk about the mechanic affecting existing adults that had offspring, which would obviously cause problems, but you're right, being able to influence the egg shouldn't cause problems at all. I hadn't considered that multi-patterned lineages were a thing, just because making them with the existing mechanics would make it a huge effort. And those lineages would definitely be messed up if the parents bred true. So you've officially converted me!

 

18 minutes ago, Tinibree said:

I've seen someone doctor a precog screenshot, for a messy hatchie. I'm not saying everyone will lie, but some people will. I don't know why someone would lie about a messy hatchie either, but they did. 

And, wow, that is... something.