ANSWERED:Not sure why I'm not allowed to make public trades anymore?

[StarlightLion]

I fully understand why linking can become a problem, so easily, but asking users to PM me or see my forum trade posts is something I've been doing regularly up until now. (A few stellar users PMd me to warn me about this thread and directed me here for better comprehension, so thank you for that!)

 

The problem with only put what you want being the only actual standing rule (because if it's not written on-site or in an already established place for rules, ie news announcements or in the ToS or what have you, then it's not actually in the rules it's simply being enforced) is that it's so incredibly vague.

When I direct other players to check my forum posts (which, I'm still not sure if that's bannable, but I have stopped doing that just in case), but when I do that it's because I cannot actually fit the things I am looking for in the character limit for that box.

 

For example (because I always find live examples are easier to understand):

I am currently trading this CB Blusang. I want a 4G Bronze Shimmerscale from male Magma checker that is unrelated to Melting Down Taiyo Sparkles OR a 5G Sunsong from male Silver Shimmerscale checker unrelated to Kami no Fange. Or, alternatively, 2G Black eggs from Aria.

Obviously, there is absolutely no way I can fit all of that into the character limit for Trading Hub 'wants', and even if there was I would be putting links (regardless of that fact that these dragons are owned by me, on-site, and are essential information for what I will accept or decline), so these wants would be a bannable offence. So I ask potential traders to PM me on the official forums so I can better manage my wants, or to see my forum trade posts (which very coherently, with links, explain exactly what it is I want to trade my CB Rare egg for. If I cannot do that, then either I cannot actually use the Trading Hub for it's intended purpose, or I am reduced to putting '4G BShim from male Magma, 5G SShim from female Sunsong, 2G BLACK eggs from Aria' because that's all I can fit. That's not remotely an accurate indication of what I want, and in my opinion should be far more bannable than 'see this post' or 'mates from this group', but from what I understand reading this thread, that's okay.

even though I have no room for noting my egg is caveborn, or that I will decline the things I have asked for if they're related to what I own. I'm relying on other users not only understanding that on an innate level (which is absurd considering that new players have no way of knowing that I own these dragons already), I'm also relying on other users understanding that 'SShim' means 'Silver Shimmerscale'.

all of these things are patently absurd, but because I have no way of actually specifying, that is what my Blusang is currently tagged as. And someone made a good point earlier - trading on the forum is stagnant. I get faster trades, for what I want (as long as what I want is simple and caveborn, or a direct bloodswap (which isn't always feasible)) on the Trading Hub than I ever do on the forum. But I'm a lineage trader - specifically I mostly deal in Snow lineages and Flower-Crowned lineages. (It's obvious, just look at my signature). But these are Holidays, which means I RELY on IOUs and communication to establish breed mates and actually keeping track of anything, otherwise I'll end up with duplicates of certain pairings and never get certain other pairs.

 

In summary, having "Only put what you want" is incredibly vague and not helpful as the only real rule we have regarding the Trading Hub, especially when putting what we have is technically against the rules but also allowed.

 

an edit: Ironically, to ask if we can discuss getting the ability to edit our wants? If I get something that I wanted, or if I made a typo, I can't edit and instead have to remake the trade entirely, which forces me to spam-bump a trade even if I don't want to.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Ninjakittee

[Aimmerz]

15 hours ago, TJ09 said:

To help us develop better guidelines, can you explain what you find unclear about "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for?" That is exactly what the site asks you to provide, and outside of a singular exception ("haves" are a clear missing bit in the feature) nothing else is allowed.

 

So to expand on @DarkEternity's list, here's what you can put in the box:

• Wants ("[helping] others understand what types of offers you are looking for")
• Haves (for now: specifically "describing what you are offering." This is technically against the rules-as-written, but will not get you blocked from trading)

Here's what you should not put in the box:

• Literally anything else.

 A lot of people have written already about why the message "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for" is unclear, and the replies have been really great. I'd like to add to it.

It is unclear because it says to write a message that helps others understand what types of offers I'm looking for, so given that instruction and that instruction alone, along with a small box with a very limited number of characters, a logical conclusion to come to is that I shall write in the box for people to look at X to see what I'm looking for in exchange for this egg/hatchling. In doing so, I have fallen within the remit of "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for." It is an incredibly vague instruction that leaves room for many different inferences.

If you have specific rules about HOW a person should write such a message, these rules should be displayed either on that page next to the "want box", or a link should be provided on that page that takes a person directly to those rules. At that point, you've done all you can to ensure people have followed to rules in order to participate. Right now, there are rules that people aren't able to follow because they're unaware said rules exist.
 

If you operated a fleet of buses to use as public transportation, you wouldn't put a sign up on every bus that says "please respectful of the comfort of other passengers", and then when someone is eating a sandwich, or playing music so loud that it can be heard even outside their headphones, or sitting with their feet up on seats, or smoking, immediately marching them off the bus and banning them from your fleet. You would put up signs that say, "please no eating or drinking," and "please no smoking," etc. Not smoking on a public bus makes sense to you and me, right? And yet, it happens. See how this is the same? What you mean by "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for" makes sense to you. And yet, look at what is happening. People don't even know what they have done wrong. The ban buttons are flying and no one is in agreement that is an okay way to handle things. Signs need to be put up on the bus.

Also I'd like to take the time to stress that I love the trading hub and I'm so grateful it was added. It's only increased my love for this game and I'm enjoying it very much. I wouldn't want this to overshadow what a brilliant feature I think the trading hub is!
 

[LuckyKitty]

5 hours ago, 49ER said:

@EpicKitty25, I hope you get your trading privileges restored.  It probably seems like we hijacked your thread here, but this issue is bringing up a lot of gray areas that need to be hammered out.

Thank you for your support. I hope it gets resolved soon too (obviously 😅)

And it's completely fine. I'm actually glad my post has opened discussion; I'm glad people are taking these issues so seriously (I didn't even expect any replies honestly; the forum's still a new, big, scary place for me), agree with almost everything that's been said here and have felt the compulsion to click a nonexistent thumbs up button on 80% of them, and if nothing else at least my problems and this post resulted in some positive change or at least constructive discussion.

[VVarhound]

Wait, so is or isn't it allowed to post something like "forum username [insert name here]" in the trade box? Because there's nothing more helpful for others to "understand what types of offers you're looking for" than a back and forth conversation, and the forum is the only method of having those conversations. I can understand not allowing off-site links since the content of those can't be moderated but I can't see how linking to pages within the site or forum itself would have any risk of abuse - and how it wouldn't also fall under the helping others understand what trades you're looking for category. Disallowing it makes zero sense both logically and with how the rule is written.

[StarlightLion]

2 hours ago, VVarhound said:

Wait, so is or isn't it allowed to post something like "forum username [insert name here]" in the trade box? Because there's nothing more helpful for others to "understand what types of offers you're looking for" than a back and forth conversation, and the forum is the only method of having those conversations. I can understand not allowing off-site links since the content of those can't be moderated but I can't see how linking to pages within the site or forum itself would have any risk of abuse - and how it wouldn't also fall under the helping others understand what trades you're looking for category. Disallowing it makes zero sense both logically and with how the rule is written.

I agree with you personally, but I'm not going to argue with TJ about the rules themselves, just how they're laid out (or not laid out) and enforced.

To actually answer your question - no, as I understand it right now, you cannot say 'this is my forum name' in your wants box, it is currently a bannable offence.

[Sextonator]

Users aren’t allowed to contact each other through the site, unfortunately, for reasons out of TJ’s control. Anything that could be considered conversation isn’t allowed.

[Aimmerz]

7 hours ago, Sextonator said:

Users aren’t allowed to contact each other through the site, unfortunately, for reasons out of TJ’s control. Anything that could be considered conversation isn’t allowed.

Does this include when people make Highlighted groups that are named things such as "PM me on the forums, I am [forum username]." ? And when they name dragons with, for example, "I am [forum name] on forums." ?? Just checking for the sake of clarity. Thanks!

[purplehaze]

11 minutes ago, Aimmerz said:

And when they name dragons with, for example, "I am [forum name] on forums." ?? Just checking for the sake of clarity. Thanks!

This part I know is okay if you use it as a scroll topper, because TJ said so in answer to a question in TLQ yesterday. I would not risk that highlighted group name, although I have seen no definitive answer to that.

Edited August 7, 2018 by purplehaze

[Sextonator]

Yeah, those have been deemed ok, I think it mostly applies to the Trading Hub due to it’s nature.

[JavaTigress]

19 hours ago, Ribombee said:

Oh absolutely. I don’t blame him for not seeing things coming. They just need to get fixed (something TJ stated he is working on), whether it be to allow on site links to groups/forum wishlists or to make it more clear those aren’t allowable. I can definitely see the problem with offsite links! They could be anything at all, including links to malware or unsavory content. 

If I may humbly submit.... I think a BIG partof the problems are stemming from the fact that people may be ASSUMING that the rules for the trade hub are similar for those for the trade sections here on the forums?
( Which, if I may point out, DO allow for onsite links ( to a dragon's lineage, for instance), as WELL as requests for PMs) I wonder if this is where some of the confusion is coming from?

 

Because while as you say, I can totally SEE forbidding external links,I can also see why someone might think linking to a dragon's lineage if one was asking for a mate for it ( to clarify your 'want') was acceptable?

[VixenDra]

Such things only on DC... Even what will make you banned is a stupid mistery you have to find out the hard way about:/ This is nonsense.

[purplehaze]

14 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

If I may humbly submit.... I think a BIG partof the problems are stemming from the fact that people may be ASSUMING that the rules for the trade hub are similar for those for the trade sections here on the forums?
( Which, if I may point out, DO allow for onsite links ( to a dragon's lineage, for instance), as WELL as requests for PMs) I wonder if this is where some of the confusion is coming from?

 

Because while as you say, I can totally SEE forbidding external links,I can also see why someone might think linking to a dragon's lineage if one was asking for a mate for it ( to clarify your 'want') was acceptable?

I think also a lot of people were expecting this to be exactly like the marketplace on EATW, which apparently did allow such things.

[Starscream]

37 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

If I may humbly submit.... I think a BIG partof the problems are stemming from the fact that people may be ASSUMING that the rules for the trade hub are similar for those for the trade sections here on the forums?
( Which, if I may point out, DO allow for onsite links ( to a dragon's lineage, for instance), as WELL as requests for PMs) I wonder if this is where some of the confusion is coming from?

 

Because while as you say, I can totally SEE forbidding external links,I can also see why someone might think linking to a dragon's lineage if one was asking for a mate for it ( to clarify your 'want') was acceptable?

Where I would not have a problem with indicating an on site link or group, it appears to be not something TJ wishes. (Still trying to figure/understand that one) I would say strongly avoid.

[JavaTigress]

37 minutes ago, Starscream said:

Where I would not have a problem with indicating an on site link or group, it appears to be not something TJ wishes. (Still trying to figure/understand that one) I would say strongly avoid.

Yes, I wasn't saying I SHOULD do it.... just that I can understand the confusion on the point.

[LuckyKitty]

3 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

If I may humbly submit.... I think a BIG partof the problems are stemming from the fact that people may be ASSUMING that the rules for the trade hub are similar for those for the trade sections here on the forums?
( Which, if I may point out, DO allow for onsite links ( to a dragon's lineage, for instance), as WELL as requests for PMs) I wonder if this is where some of the confusion is coming from?

 

Because while as you say, I can totally SEE forbidding external links,I can also see why someone might think linking to a dragon's lineage if one was asking for a mate for it ( to clarify your 'want') was acceptable?

I think the biggest problem and source of confusion, at least in my personal experience, actually kind of the opposite. My problem is that DC seems to rely so much on the forum without actually stressing enough how important it is. Like, from what I've seen here like half the rules can only be found by digging through the forum. But I wouldn't know because, even though I've been on DC for years, I just joined the forum around a month ago, a story I've heard many times in the introductions subforum. I'm really asocial and shy, so I rathered just collect my dragons in peace and solitude instead of venture into the big scary forum full of people. I thought this was a valid option. But if it isn't, and having an account on the forum is the only way to properly avoid the ban hammer, this needs to be stated in the cave somewhere. At least in my opinion. I know there's a link to the forum there, but that's about it (at least to my memory, correct me if I'm wrong), so as I said I thought it was an option. If you want to keep a lot of the important stuff on the forum and rely on it so heavily, that's fine, but at least inform users on the cave of the important things the forum is used for other than chatting and finding out about new releases, or make it mandatory to make an account on the forum to activate your DC account, or something else like that to further encourage being proactive in the forum. Either that or put all the essentials on the main website.

Edited August 7, 2018 by epickitty25

[49ER]

I agree.  Even if someone does something wrong in posting a trade on the forum, it would only result in a 10 percent warning unless it was a total flagrant abuse and then maybe there would be a temp forum ban.  And the rules pertaining to trading in forum are posted at top of subsection as well as some specific trade threads.

But Trade Hub on the DC site itself, can get you banned for doing things not illegal on the forum trade threads.  And the ban can be permanent, as far as I know.

 

Something doesn't quite seem fair about that.

[LuckyKitty]

20 minutes ago, 49ER said:

I agree.  Even if someone does something wrong in posting a trade on the forum, it would only result in a 10 percent warning unless it was a total flagrant abuse and then maybe there would be a temp forum ban.  And the rules pertaining to trading in forum are posted at top of subsection as well as some specific trade threads.

But Trade Hub on the DC site itself, can get you banned for doing things not illegal on the forum trade threads.  And the ban can be permanent, as far as I know.

 

Something doesn't quite seem fair about that.

Yeah... I can't really attest to the part about the trading forum, but I'm really not a fan of perm-bans and perm-restrictions being the go-to punishment. Sometimes, people just make mistakes and won't do it again if they just get a warning from someone or even a restriction or ban lasting a week or so (if told why so they know what not to do). I get it if someone continues breaking the rules even after being warned by someone or after a temporary restriction/they show malicious intent, but permanent punishments right off the bat for everything just deprives tons of innocent people of a chance to learn from their mistakes and use the site the way it was meant to be used, especially if the things that can get them punished aren't even made very clear. In a previous comment I heard that all punishments on the cave are permanent unless you work something out with staff... not sure if that's true, but in that case there should at least be a subforum for ban appeals. Preferably one easily accessible from the cave.

Edited August 7, 2018 by epickitty25

[pinkgothic]

On 8/6/2018 at 8:20 AM, TJ09 said:

To help us develop better guidelines, can you explain what you find unclear about "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for?" That is exactly what the site asks you to provide, and outside of a singular exception ("haves" are a clear missing bit in the feature) nothing else is allowed.

For what it's worth (while I'm not currently trading much and probably will hold back for a while): For me, this wording clearly allows for links, allows for requests for PMs and allows for "I'd like to accept user X's offer, but you're egglocked". Links to clarify what I'm looking for, requests for PMs to clarify what types of offers I am looking for. And while I personally don't use the "accept your offer but you're egglocked" message, that to me is clarifying that the offer that was made is exactly what you are looking for. You could also word it as "Want: what person X offered on my trade, but I couldn't accept due to them being egg-locked".

 

It definitely took the forum discussion for me to learn that even mentioning a dragon's code ("mate for 3JTjV"), since it's a shorthand for a link, is probably in violation of this ruleset. I'm glad I wasn't banned so far, but it's not because I knew what was going on, or because I didn't violate what is apparently spirit of the rules.

 

Even with all the discussion this has seen, I honestly still don't grok (or even dimly understand) how you expect the wording to exclude links or requests for PMs (the 'communication' scenario is enough of a grayzone that I feel I understand that one now, though I'd still prefer that kind of thing be expressly excluded, not just excluded by presumed implication). I'm now aware of it, but the revelation came as a shock to me.

[tjekan]

Wouldn't it be easier to just add the line "No links, names, or personal identification allowed" if those are the things TJ is most intently trying to discourage?

 

Right now the only instructions are to "help others understand what types of offers you are looking for" (which somebody might reasonably interpret to include linking to a longer list of lineages you're looking for, your forum profile, etc) and a warning that "Misuse of this text may result in disciplinary action" (which I would personally have interpreted as a warning against putting inappropriate or harassing language in the box, same as the warning on text messages during Valentine's events and so on.)

 

I don't think the rules need to be changed at all. It's a very small box, restricting it to just haves and wants is perfectly fine. I just think the rules need to be more clearly stated if people are going to get banned over it. As things are currently, even a completely reasonable user could mess this up without trying to.

 

I would recommend either changing it to "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. No links, names, or personal identification allowed." or "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. 'Haves' and 'wants' are the only information permitted in this text box."

 

Users aren't psychic, they don't all read forum threads like this one, some are kids and others read English as a second language. More clear and direct instructions will avert many problems.

 

[LuckyKitty]

2 hours ago, tjekan said:

" (which I would personally have interpreted as a warning against putting inappropriate or harassing language in the box, same as the warning on text messages during Valentine's events and so on.)

EXACTLY. This is what I thought it meant.

[High Lord November]

15 hours ago, tjekan said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just add the line "No links, names, or personal identification allowed" if those are the things TJ is most intently trying to discourage?

 

Yeah I feel like the solution is pretty simple. "No links, names, or personal identification allowed. Only dragon breed names should be inputed. Misuse will result in trading rights being revoked".

 

Two: Giving a very specific format for people to follow. Something where it's painfully clear it's fill-in-the-blanks. Reminds me of how TGT has a template that needs to be followed when posting. 

[Soulsborne]

How about (rightfully) banning someone from public trading who claims that both of their 2 eggs are CB when one of them isn't. (Doesn't look like a mistake because this trick is used on two consecutive trades - 1 egg really CB, the other isn't) This shouldn't be allowed but there is no option to flag such trades, is it?

[purplehaze]

1 minute ago, Soulsborne said:

How about (rightfully) banning someone from public trading who claims that both of their 2 eggs are CB when one of them isn't. (Doesn't look like a mistake because this trick is used on two consecutive trades - 1 egg really CB, the other isn't) This shouldn't be allowed but there is no option to flag such trades, is it?

You can report a trade by clicking on the little triangle with ! in it that is at the end of their wants. I'm not sure what happens when you do that or whether you get to say why you are reporting it.

[Soulsborne]

Ah, that's good to know Thank you for letting me know - you never stop learning 😮

[Starscream]

Just make sure you're not reporting a trade for the sake of it.

 

If you are doing a trade, I strongly urge that you look at what you are interested in to make sure that it is what you think it is.