Make a Kickstarter for DC Updates

[Dianacat777]

I get the impression most of the listed suggestions were things he just wasn't implementing because he didn't want to, or at least has some reservations about the ideas. They're certainly not beyond his coding ability.

 

Also, I thought the limiting factor for TJ for time - but it would help to hear his opinion.

 

Double posting so it isn't missed but argh. I'm just tired of wondering if all the time we spend trying to flesh out suggestions is largely just time spent wasted. I feel that way about DR a lot too, since every release for years now has either been an already released spriter or event spriter. I just want to know if we're doing nothing but running pointlessly in circles. 

Now, this I really feel - especially because the completed list is constantly purging itself, but not for releases. Loads of dragons just... vanish, into the ether, noiselessly, and you never learn why. It's horribly disheartening. Even if you complete a request to the best of your ability, its likely fate is to sit on the completed list and then get binned after a few years. I feel like everything I've put my time and enthusiasm into has been a giant waste.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Dianacat777

[Odeen]

TJ didn't need to say anything about the Solstice hatchlings. I asked him to implement them, he implemented them. I also didn't say anything and this is not a problem for you.

 

He also does actually close threads he knows he won't implement for certain, usually with a good reason why. I don't understand why him not killing an idea and leaving people the chance to give him a version of the idea he does like is a bad thing.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

well yeah but the updated solstice hatchies the thread asking for them was like a couple of yeas old right? and then we got them. with no word about it from tj

 

and the azure glacewings were on the completed dragon request list going by what people were saying in the release thread and a lot of releases arent from the completed dragon request list right?

 

 

so we do get some stuff tj just never tells us when which seems to be the main issue here

Oh whoops, I thought you were talking about stuff not getting used from other artists, not about features being implemented.

 

Yes, you're right--we do get updates, many of which we've been extremely thankful for. I can't imagine the cave without BSAs and trophies and alt sort, and I love the new zombie updates and, of course, the raised limits on bred holidays. But at the same time it feels like for every nice feature we get, five more are left to languish indefinitely.

 

Now, this I really feel - especially because the completed list is constantly purging itself, but not for releases. Loads of dragons just... vanish, into the ether, noiselessly, and you never learn why. It's horribly disheartening. I feel like everything I've put my time and enthusiasm into has been a giant waste.

 

Yah. It feels like current spriters just constantly are used over and over because it's simpler to get them then to grant new spriters permission... but then why bother leaving DR open at all?

 

Again, ok, that's just my guess as to what's happening. But for like three years now I've checked the credits on released dragons and it's always 1) someone who was already released or 2) someone who was an event spriter, which is invite-only. We have AMAZING in cave spriters, but we have amazing non-in-cave ones, too. And seeing 100% of dragons in the last few years be only the in group makes me wonder if the others are even worth trying to submit.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

He also does actually close threads he knows he won't implement for certain, usually with a good reason why. I don't understand why him not killing an idea and leaving people the chance to give him a version of the idea he does like is a bad thing.

How many more ways can we possibly reiterate simple ideas like heal, tabs, and 8 egg slots?

 

More complicated things like unfreeze and the store have been evaluated and reevaluated and shaped into amazingly complete suggestions. The store in particular was really amazingly fleshed out.

 

And still we hear nothing. If the suggestion is still not up to par--we need to know. Otherwise it feels like we're spending years babbling into a void.

 

Edit: typo!

Edited December 29, 2016 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Paradisiske]

TJ didn't need to say anything about the Solstice hatchlings. I asked him to implement them, he implemented them. I also didn't say anything and this is not a problem for you.

sorry i wasnt trying to make it seem like it was a problem i just thought a little update saying that they were implemented would have been nice thats all

[Odeen]

Again, ok, that's just my guess as to what's happening. But for like three years now I've checked the credits on released dragons and it's always 1) someone who was already released or 2) someone who was an event spriter, which is invite-only. We have AMAZING in cave spriters, but we have amazing non-in-cave ones, too. And seeing 100% of dragons in the last few years be only the in group makes me wonder if the others are even worth trying to submit.

Wait, so if we make sure to invite every active DR artist to one event or another, then if they ever get in cave with a dragon release they no longer count as a new Spriter because they did an egg that one time? I don't follow.

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Wait, so if we make sure to invite every active DR artist to one event or another, then if they ever get in cave with a dragon release they no longer count as a new Spriter because they did an egg that one time? I don't follow.

It would just be nice to see someone who was really outside the fold get in. Event spriters DO have to be invited, right? So even if they don't have a dragon in cave yet, it feels like they're already "in" with the spriters who do have dragons.

 

Would be nice to see someone who didn't have those connections be released. I obviously still want to see dragons from you and Infinis and Pie and Birdz and Fiona and Mysfytt and need I go on? You guys are amazing! But when I only see dragons from either in cave spriters or people in cave spriters have invited in for several years running, it does make me question whether there's much hope for other people struggling in DR unless they get noticed by those who already have connections.

 

Edit: just went through the DC timeline. We haven't had a spriter released who wasn't already in cave or an invited event spriter since August 2014 when Undines made it in (and brought in three new spriters in one swoop!). That's two and a half years of only dragons made by already existing spriters or those they invite to participate in events getting in. Can you see how this makes people without those connections feel rather dismal about the point of trying?

Edited December 30, 2016 by angelicdragonpuppy

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Also, I thought the limiting factor for TJ for time - but it would help to hear his opinion.

I too guess it's a time thing (if he just didn't like the suggestions, why not close them? Especially after some have sat for many years). But as they say, time is money--so perhaps a successful crowdfund would persuade him to spend a few weekends doing extra DC coding instead of doing other TJ things.

[Lurhstaap]

TJ didn't need to say anything about the Solstice hatchlings. I asked him to implement them, he implemented them. I also didn't say anything and this is not a problem for you.

 

He also does actually close threads he knows he won't implement for certain, usually with a good reason why. I don't understand why him not killing an idea and leaving people the chance to give him a version of the idea he does like is a bad thing.

In general, it isn't. But there's got to be SOME point where he steps in and says yes or no. Leaving a concept open-ended and unanswered for LITERALLY half a decade or more is the problem. At that point it is fair for people to wonder if the idea is a waste of their time to continue supporting/hashing out or not.

 

And like I said before, no, not everything needs to be announced, but TJ is far less likely to announce or comment than he is to do so, and IMO the balance in his case is way too far on that side. More communication with his playerbase would be helpful. There are VERY few announcements that aren't regular monthly dragon releases or expected holiday posts.

 

Otherwise, people are going to start giving up on making suggestions. And feeling like staff doesn't listen is a huge killer of games (even free games like DC). There are a number of valid concerns being addressed here. I appreciate you feel you need to defend TJ, but you're glossing over some very important details.

 

I for one don't see why it's a problem for those of us who can afford it to say to TJ, essentially, "Hey, if you're willing to invest a little more of your free time into DC, we're willing to pay you for it." No one is asking or expecting him to quit his job.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Lurhstaap

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I for one don't see why it's a problem for those of us who can afford it to say to TJ, essentially, "Hey, if you're willing to invest a little more of your free time into DC, we're willing to pay you for it." No one is asking or expecting him to quit his job.

Sorry for posting a lot but, yah. This exactly.

 

People on the forums are often quick to kill ideas like this because we should be grateful to have a free game like this at all. I get where they're coming from. And I am grateful and do try to show it when awesome things happen. I haven't been here for nine years because I don't like playing. But at the same time, I do think the slowness with which new features are implemented is a problem, and this is a suggestion for perhaps one way we, the userbase, could ask for these new features to come more quickly while also giving something back in turn for them.

[HeatherMarie]

I for one don't see why it's a problem for those of us who can afford it to say to TJ, essentially, "Hey, if you're willing to invest a little more of your free time into DC, we're willing to pay you for it." No one is asking or expecting him to quit his job.

I agree.

 

I'm not well-off financially but I've been playing DC since 2008 and have invested a LOT of time here. If I *could* donate some money that I know would be used to further the site, I totally would. But I personally like to donate to places where I know where the money is going. I would like to be able to say "Okay, if we all donate and get to this amount, then one of these things will happen". I would like that. And I would totally donate.

[Pokemonfan13]

It would just be nice to see someone who was really outside the fold get in. Event spriters DO have to be invited, right? So even if they don't have a dragon in cave yet, it feels like they're already "in" with the spriters who do have dragons.

 

Would be nice to see someone who didn't have those connections be released.

What connections? A lot of invitees are literally "I like this person's art in DR, so I'm going to send them an invite", spread over multiple people who each have to invite someone different. It's not like they're necessarily best buddies with the person that invited them. I'm not sure it's really possible to have someone "outside the fold" as you put it, because the vast majority of DR artist who make good enough art to get released are going to have been invited to make an item for at least one event.

 

And even if each and every artist that was invited WAS best buddies with the person that invited them, how does that influence TJ? He's not going to say "Well, this person is really good friends with this in cave artist, so I'm going to pick their dragon for release next". He's going to choose the dragons he likes best, or thinks the cave needs, or whatever objective criteria he wants to use.

 

Basically, I think it's really silly to invalidate new artists as being new artists just because they've participated in an event before.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

What connections? A lot of invitees are literally "I like this person's art in DR, so I'm going to send them an invite", spread over multiple people who each have to invite someone different. It's not like they're necessarily best buddies with the person that invited them. I'm not sure it's really possible to have someone "outside the fold" as you put it, because the vast majority of DR artist who make good enough art to get released are going to have been invited to make an item for at least one event.

 

And even if each and every artist that was invited WAS best buddies with the person that invited them, how does that influence TJ? He's not going to say "Well, this person is really good friends with this in cave artist, so I'm going to pick their dragon for release next". He's going to choose the dragons he likes best, or thinks the cave needs, or whatever objective criteria he wants to use.

 

Basically, I think it's really silly to invalidate new artists as being new artists just because they've participated in an event before.

I guess that's true, but... iunno, you still think people breaking through without being in events first would happen a bit more often than it does.

[Ashywolf]

Then why doesn't he just say so? He's said no to some things. But these are suggestions he's left open for years without putting an end to.

 

If he doesn't want them, ok, fine, but say no so we can quit hoping and wasting our time arguing for them.

TJ only closes something if its a solid no. Just because he leaves an idea open doesn't mean the answer is yes. It means that he is considering or will consider it, but the answer may ultimately still be no.

 

I would guess he also does not have time to revisit old ideas and close old threads. Even if he left an old idea open, he might have since changed his mind, just not locked the thread yet.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Ashywolf

[angelicdragonpuppy]

TJ only closes something if its a solid no. Just because he leaves an idea open doesn't mean the answer is yes. It means that he is considering or will consider it, but the answer may ultimately still be no.

 

I would guess he also does not have time to revisit old ideas and close old threads. Even if he left an old idea open, he might have since changed his mind, just not locked the thread yet.

Ashy, the problem is all the ideas I mentioned are still fairly active (most have been brought up multiple times within the past year), and some have been kept alive for 3, 5, 6 years without answe. There's a difference between not getting around to closing obsolete ideas that haven't seen the light of he front page in five years and not giving any feedback on ideas that have been actively requested for five years, just as there's a difference between taking months to consider something and taking five years to consider it. At this point with so many long-requested, long-active suggestions with no answers either way... it's frustrating.

[Odeen]

For the record, you cannot arbitrarily define what constitutes a "true" (insert giant air quotes here) new in-caver. You just can't. Either a person has their name on a dragon release or they don't - and no, event assets do not count. I could invite my mom, who has never drawn with anything but a pencil, to an event, have her sprite an 8-pixel blob with her left foot, and she would not somehow be different or more in the "in-crowd" than uncredited DR artists for getting the Wikipedia page credit (love you mom).

 

Most artists who do art for DC, whether in-cave or not, have probably had at least one conversation with an in-caver. Many of them use that conversation to ask for art advice. I have an open invitation to provide critiques to people's art as long as they can put up with my sometimes-extensive response time (you know who you are, sorry, I'm working on it). Those interactions may increase your chances of getting an invite as an event contributor, because we each get only one invite and we can't all invite the same person. For my part, if I've never talked to a person, I'm probably not going to think about inviting them.

 

Guess what, though? Talking to in-cave artists and exchanging ideas with them may also help an artist produce art in a style that fits DC, boosting their odds of getting picked. There's no way for those not to have a considerable amount of overlap.

 

I'm a bit of an exception. I literally never took part in DR prior to getting released. I was an artist, but I had no clue how to sprite. I just was lucky enough to become best bros with the greatest bro to ever bro, JaziandCo, who taught me how to sprite and gave me the confidence I needed to put myself out there, and eventually that paid off. I didn't even know at the time that "event invites" were a thing. I thought T.J. just asked people he knew to make Easter eggs and stuff.

 

The fact is that people want to be involved in events for the same reason they want to get a dragon release. They love spriting and they want their work to be represented! It just so happens that it's easier to get a sprite into an event than it is to get a dragon in-cave, so a lot of spriters working on the second happen to get the first along the way.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Odeen

[diaveborn]

I feel like if there were crowdfunding for DC, I personally would love for the first priority or "tier" to be more communication. I stopped spending so much time in the suggestions forum because although I loved (and still love) this game very much and want to see it get better, I felt like all of our words were for nothing. That combined with seeing TJ be really snarky and even laugh at people who were putting genuine faith effort into trying to help make the game be better really discouraged me. (That didn't happen too often but still, more than I think is good.)

 

[Pryanka]

What connections? A lot of invitees are literally "I like this person's art in DR, so I'm going to send them an invite", spread over multiple people who each have to invite someone different. It's not like they're necessarily best buddies with the person that invited them. I'm not sure it's really possible to have someone "outside the fold" as you put it, because the vast majority of DR artist who make good enough art to get released are going to have been invited to make an item for at least one event.

I didn't realize you had to be invited to sprite little collectible items for events, I feel like I read somewhere long ago that we could PM them somewhere and they'd be taken into consideration...or was that only for submitting Holiday dragons?

 

I see what you're saying though. I don't think new artists are being snubbed either, but most of the people that are active pixel artists on DC, are at the same level as the in-cave and event artists, and want to participate in events probably already have.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I guess that's true, but... iunno, you still think people breaking through without being in events first would happen a bit more often than it does.

As PF13 says though - a not-an-existing-spriter person with a dragon in DR will be seen by artists, and if their work is good, they will be invited into an event - and apparently that immediately makes them not OK by you, ADP, because they have been in an event ? I don't get that, I REALLY don't. How do you break through without having a dragon in DR - and as soon as you have, you may get an invite if you are any good.

 

And I am TOLD (I have no way to know) that when dragons are pulled from DR, if they are not up to scratch, TJ tells you so. And I have to say, there are a HUGE number of dragons in DR that I would hope would never make it into cave. Sorry to be blunt, but just because it's in DR doesn't make it worth having.

 

ETA @ diaveborn - I don't see how funding could/would lead to more communication. TJ can and does communicate when he wants to. I have to say that while I too am frustrated by a few age-old suggestions like heal just sitting there, he does show up when something actually NEEDS saying (like threads where he has said "this cannot happen because..., so I'm closing this" and even "I don't' want this so I'm closing this.") - and on occasion there have been been serious discussion points he's made. Sometimes he's even the one to issue warns. I don't think more money would make him communicate more often. (And I don't see why we needed a notification about the solstice hatchies. Sometimes it's fun to find out by chance. As with the influenceable mistletoes last year !)

Edited December 30, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[FoxintheBox4]

I support anything that would give us some kind of indicator when something will finally be added into the game.... This waiting and silence is just sad

[Guillotine]

As PF13 says though - a not-an-existing-spriter person with a dragon in DR will be seen by artists, and if their work is good, they will be invited into an event - and apparently that immediately makes them not OK by you, ADP, because they have been  in an event ? I don't get that, I REALLY don't. How do you break through without having a dragon in DR - and as soon as you have, you may get an invite if you are any good.

 

And I am TOLD (I have no way to know) that when dragons are pulled from DR, if they are not up to scratch, TJ tells you so. And I have to say, there are a HUGE number of dragons in DR that I would hope would never make it into cave. Sorry to be blunt, but just because it's in DR doesn't make it worth having.

 

ETA @ diaveborn - I don't see how funding could/would lead to more communication. TJ can and does communicate when he wants to. I have to say that while I too am frustrated by a few age-old suggestions like heal just sitting there, he does show up when something actually NEEDS saying (like threads where he has said "this cannot happen because..., so I'm closing this" and even "I don't' want this so I'm closing this.") - and on occasion there have been been serious discussion points he's made. Sometimes he's even the one to issue warns. I don't think more money would make him communicate more often. (And I don't see why we needed a notification about the solstice hatchies. Sometimes it's fun to find out by chance. As with the influenceable mistletoes last year !)

TJ does not tell you if they are not up to scratch. My completed DR thread vanished without a word and I only found out what that meant much later when he said in an unrelated thread that he would contact people who were going to have their dragons put in the game.

 

For literal months, I had no idea what that missing thread meant for my dragon. MONTHS.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Guillotine

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Alright, fair points have been made about event spriting. However, even with that considered, 90% of releases seem to come from the same small group of people. I just (quickly, so could be wrong) checked the DC timeline and even including first release event spriters it's only about 5 dragons from new people in 3 years.

 

But I digress. >___< Main point is still the fundraiser--or any other way we can see some of these long wished for things finally happen.

[Fuzzbucket]

And I REALLY don't see that sending TJ a bunch of money would change anything. He still has a full time job, and he does show up and post here when he wants to. I doubt if money would make him show up more often, or start to make changes - and if he did - they might not be the changes we most want anyway. See under the un-solicited new skin which many of us actually can't use . Not to mention fertility, with dear Mr Flappy - who has got better - but even so, he flaps for too long....

[angelicdragonpuppy]

And I REALLY don't see that sending TJ a bunch of money would change anything. He still has a full time job, and he does show up and post here when he wants to. I doubt if money would make him show up more often, or start to make changes - and if he did - they might not be the changes we most want anyway. See under the un-solicited new skin which many of us actually can't use . Not to mention fertility, with dear Mr Flappy - who has got better - but even so, he flaps for too long....

Fuzz, it's a suggestion. That and nothing more.

 

If it won't make a difference then he won't implement it.

 

But maybe it will. And if not, at the very least, maybe showing how many popular suggestions have sat ignored for years will inspire him to take some more time to work on them instead of new releases for a while.

 

All we can do is hope and try. We've waited years for these things, I had to suggest SOMETHING.

[Thuban]

So.. I'm an event spriter. I was never invited to sprite, by anyone, I got a general invite for being a mod. I have not had a dragon release For the most part, my personality doesnt mesh well with anyone, so I tend to be on my own, and have to figure things out for myself across the board. I work on my stuff in private, and do it knowing nothing I make will work here, anything I make is just to see if I can, nothing more. It doesnt stop me from coming up with ways to get some of the things I most want to see in the game happen (like egg collecting that doesnt involve killing babies OR magic or dealing with egg pieces... I have a concept that can do it.. the art is not up to par... or things like the store idea).

 

I see people asking about invites: Most of my invites have been "hey you sprite sometimes.. wanna make a thing for this event?" in chat. Usually, if i throw an invite it goes to my kids, because I can help them if they need it. Sometimes, people just ask me if theres something they can help with, if theres an invite, they get it. I dont hang out in DR, I dont hang out in the forums, so of course, my invites will always pull from irc, or random people contacting me to ask if they can help. If you wanna help with events, ask someone a month or so ahead of time, and if there are invites, someone will contact ya and tell you whats needed.

 

 

_____________________________________________

 

As for this idea specifically: I dont think funding is the issue, more a lack of time. Perhaps conflicts with his day job. I know my husband has to be very, very careful about what updates he makes to his site, while he works for his current company, since there are similarities, and his company could claim those updates as THEIRS. It doesn't matter if he works them out on his site first on his free time, here at home on our computers, if its too similar, they can claim it. I have to wonder if TJ runs into a similar issue with his day job.

 

Theres always petitions and such to gain attention too.. rather than bribes

Edited December 30, 2016 by Thuban