Alts for older dragon types.

[Lurhstaap]

As far as I understand the issue here is not "outdated art" but propose alts. As I already said, if the issue is "outdated art" then I think we should end this discussion because there are people who love the current sprites and dragons and this is a discussion that goes no where and promotes drama.

 

Please keep in mind that everybody is free to collect the dragons that they want. If you hate "dragon X" because you think it's ugly, outdated, whatever reason, nobody is forcing you to collect that dragon. You can just ignore their eggs and let people who love that dragon collect them.

Actually, yes, the issue here IS outdated sprites. The only reason the alt thing is being suggested is a compromise between people who want to update the sprites and people who want to keep the old sprites. The OP themself said that while they love the old Stone they would also like to see the same breed done in the modern, higher quality art styles the newer species get. Pretending this isn't about outdated sprites is, IMO, disingenuous. While it may be off-topic to veer into other possible ways to handle the issue, don't try to pretend the fundamental problem is anything other than what it is: the vast and obvious quality/"style" (if you must sugarcoat) differences between the new art and the old art.

 

I also think that just because an issue is highly charged is no reason not to discuss it. Just because no workable solution has been found yet doesn't mean that it can't be found.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[NotBambi]

If the problem is to move the biomes, then, maybe you would like to see one of the suggestions about how to improve the biomes, like this one:

Suggestion to move the Biomes.

 

The art of the sprite have nothing to do with that, biome movement is much more related to the fact that many people don't want to collect the dragons that are there, old or new.

I'm aware of those suggestions and I agree with most of them.

Sorry but I cannot agree with your second paragraph.

 

[danicast]

Actually, yes, the issue here IS outdated sprites. The only reason the alt thing is being suggested is a compromise between people who want to update the sprites and people who want to keep the old sprites. The OP themself said that while they love the old Stone they would also like to see the same breed done in the modern, higher quality art styles the newer species get. Pretending this isn't about outdated sprites is, IMO, disingenuous. While it may be off-topic to veer into other possible ways to handle the issue, don't try to pretend the fundamental problem is anything other than what it is: the vast and obvious quality/"style" (if you must sugarcoat) differences between the new art and the old art.

 

I also think that just because an issue is highly charged is no reason not to discuss it. Just because no workable solution has been found yet doesn't mean that it can't be found.

Then I think we should not discuss this topic. As I said in the thread that was locked, the update of the sprite is a decision that belongs only to the spriter and TJ and as

LadyLyzar said " I don't think making sprite update suggestions public is a good idea."

 

I know a lot of people would not like to see their dear old dragons altered in any way and I still think that if someone wants to propose new sprites, then it should propose new dragons and not propose to change the old ones.

[Thuban]

Avoid mentioning replacing specific sprites, but instead work with the idea of "how can we update things and keep as many people as possible happy?"

 

This thread does not seem to be specifically about actually updating things so much as trying to find a way to make it work where new versions could happen, without replacing all of the old ones.

 

 

OP: If you could update your first post with some of the suggestions you have seen, it will help keep this on topic, and encourage more ideas.

[danicast]

Avoid mentioning replacing specific sprites, but instead work with the idea of "how can we update things and keep as many people as possible happy?"

 

This thread does not seem to be specifically about actually updating things so much as trying to find a way to make it work where new versions could happen, without replacing all of the old ones.

But WHY is necessary to update anything? There are some lovely old dragons here in DC, even if the sprites are old and not so shining as the new ones, they have their own charm and qualities. It is proven that retire breeds or replace sprites is never a good idea, just think about Frills and old Pinks! People massively want the Frills to be re-released and a lot of people want the old pinks back.

If the main goal is to keep the users happy then keep the dragons as they are now, because there are people who love them and keep releasing new dragons! It's the best compromise to make everybody happy.

[Thuban]

But WHY is necessary to update anything? There are some lovely old dragons here in DC, even if the sprites are old and not so shining as the new ones, they have their own charm and qualities. It is proven that retire breeds or replace sprites is never a good idea, just think about Frills and old Pinks! People massively want the Frills to be re-released and a lot of people want the old pinks back.

If the main goal is to keep the users happy then keep the dragons as they are now, because there are people who love them and keep releasing new dragons! It's the best compromise to make everybody happy.

If you read through this thread, you would see that I do NOT like the idea of updating old sprites, and forcing replacements on to existing ones. This thread introduced the idea os having new ones as potential alts for old ones. A user brought up that old ones may be undesired compared to new ones, which led to the suggestion of eventually treating the old ones like alts.

 

Some people like the old sprites, and the ability to keep them is all they really want.

 

Some people refuse to collect blockers on account of not being updated enough for their tastes.

Some in the crowd would rather see full replacements.

 

Some people, are willing to compromise... which is where this thread was heading, before the other thread invaded this one (its gone, can we please stop bringing it up?)

 

 

What suggestions do you guys have when it comes to potentially updating old sprites. Would you rather stick with retiring old ones, straight up replacing them, or finding a new way to implement that makes most people happy?

 

 

[NotBambi]

If the main goal is to keep the users happy then keep the dragons as they are now, because there are people who love them and keep releasing new dragons! It's the best compromise to make everybody happy.

That is the status quo, not a compromise. And considering this thread and others, it is NOT making everybody happy.

[danicast]

What suggestions do you guys have when it comes to potentially updating old sprites. Would you rather stick with retiring old ones, straight up replacing them, or finding a new way to implement that makes most people happy?

I am strongly against the idea of update the old sprites. That's it.

Leave the old dragons alone and keep releasing new dragons. Let people collect what they want.

[TJ09]

I'm all for any update that can be seen as an iterative, quantitative improvement (and, despite this being art, some updates are indeed quantitative--lighting or anatomy that was incorrect being fixed is objectively better, despite potential opinions to the contrary).

 

Larger improvements or complete revamps are cause to move slower, but I see no reason to hold back smaller anatomy and shading fixes (like the 09 Valentine changes) for "attachment" reasons.

[dragongrrl]

The updating that was done with Horses and several other breeds a couple of years ago was not a problem for me, since the character of the old sprite remained intact and evident in the updated sprites. As long as the nature of the dragon is not changed, updating is fine. Just don't replace the Mona Lisa with a Picasso.

 

I would hate to see any of the breeds retired.

 

 

[Ha-Ki]

The updating that was done with Horses and several other breeds a couple of years ago was not a problem for me, since the character of the old sprite remained intact and evident in the updated sprites. As long as the nature of the dragon is not changed, updating is fine. Just don't replace the Mona Lisa with a Picasso.

 

I would hate to see any of the breeds retired.

100% agreement

 

GoN's and whiptails come to my mind when I think about minor updates, and I think those are perfectly fine and were very well done. The pose is the same, so the lineage view does not really change. No compromise needed there.

 

For updates that are as severe as the gold update, I'd like to see a compromise between keeping old ones and making new ones available. While I personally didn't mind the gold update, I understand how people who build lineages with the sprites because of their pose, color, or how the lineage tiles look like are upset because the sprite update severely changed the lineages that have been built with the old sprite.

 

That's also the reason why I'm against retiring old sprites in order to keep them on our scrolls - I want to be able to continue lineages I'm working on, and I don't want the sprites to suddenly change between one generation and the next.

[NotBambi]

I'm all for any update that can be seen as an iterative, quantitative improvement (and, despite this being art, some updates are indeed quantitative--lighting or anatomy that was incorrect being fixed is objectively better, despite potential opinions to the contrary).

 

Larger improvements or complete revamps are cause to move slower, but I see no reason to hold back smaller anatomy and shading fixes (like the 09 Valentine changes) for "attachment" reasons.

Well... I'm nobody but still extremely happy that you do not see reason to hold back smaller fixes. I also noticed that you didn't exclude larger improvements or revamps but I'm trying to not read too much on that.

Edited July 5, 2015 by NotBambi

[Tehya Faye]

I'm okay with alts only under the condition that Rares do not receive alts. If Silvers were to get a shiny new alt form it'd make it a lot more difficult for people to get them since they're already rare, and now they would have a new form to collect. Sure, I would love it if Silvers were redone to look as amazing as a lot of the newer dragons look, but releasing it in this manner is just going to upset me because then I'll have to hunt for them all over again while hoping I don't end up with the old version I already have plenty of. I doubt I'd be able to trade the old Silver for a new one either, not for a long long while at least.

[JavaTigress]

I'm okay with alts only under the condition that Rares do not receive alts. If Silvers were to get a shiny new alt form it'd make it a lot more difficult for people to get them since they're already rare, and now they would have a new form to collect. Sure, I would love it if Silvers were redone to look as amazing as a lot of the newer dragons look, but releasing it in this manner is just going to upset me because then I'll have to hunt for them all over again while hoping I don't end up with the old version I already have plenty of. I doubt I'd be able to trade the old Silver for a new one either, not for a long long while at least.

I say I'd agree with this as well.

 

The method mentioned , I think, would work well enough for commons, but rares... I don't think so. It'd be SUPER frustrating to catch/ breed that elusive metallic ONLY to find out that it was the wrong alt.

IF Shinies get spiffy new sprites, I think it would have to be handled differently than that.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Silverswift

[zaverxi]

I think the idea of having mana-infused alts would be fantastic, and would be a way to update older dragons.

 

I always thought the Red dragons looked amazing, but was disappointed that they didn't get a female version when dimorphism was brought out. There's so much potential for different poses with them while still maintaining the breed characteristics. Having alt versions brought about through a story gimmick is a great idea.

 

Having an updated alt for Reds with dimorphism would make them even more desirable than they are now, what with having the extremely useful BSA incubate. But then there'd be the potential for having them to breed nice lineages! I don't know many people who use Reds in lineages, sadly. People usually just have armies strictly for the BSA, not the dragon itself. That's why I took it upon myself to use Reds in lineages, because they're underutilized.

 

Ditto for other old dragons, namely mints(unless you count the notorious 'inbred mints' from the AP. ) magis, guardians, skywings, earths, and stones.

 

Whites, on the other hand, seem to be disgustingly popular with people breeding holidays.

 

But yeah, all those dragons I just mentioned? 2006-2008, and people rarely use them. Like reds, magis are primarily only collected for the BSAs (although there was some interest with the introduction of hybrids for magis, skywings, stones, and earths, though it didn't last very long)

 

There are of course people who HAVE made lines involving all of those, but I wouldn't call them popular.

 

 

Actually, on the subject of alts through some sort of story event, there was a project in the works back in the day to make 'updated' sprites for some dragons, did you know?

 

They were for what was called the 'Ascended Project'.

 

Tell me this doesn't look amazing.

[danicast]

I prefer ascension than alts.

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...09&hl=ascension

[Nerei]

I prefer ascension than alts.

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...09&hl=ascension

But that's an entirely different suggestion. Most of us are trying to find a way to incorporate minimal updates to old sprites, but some people just aren't having it. Even if alts were implemented, I think we are just trying to find a way to fix a few minor shading or anatomy errors. I really don't think that this would change the sprites much, making alts pretty pointless.

[Tehya Faye]

Alts would have to be noticeably different to be worth bothering with, whether it's a new color and/or pose. Touching up a sprite doesn't warrant a separate alt.

[Nerei]

At first people just wanted the sprites touched up a little, like with the GoN. But for some reason, that was vehemently refused by several users.

[danicast]

But that's an entirely different suggestion. Most of us are trying to find a way to incorporate minimal updates to old sprites, but some people just aren't having it. Even if alts were implemented, I think we are just trying to find a way to fix a few minor shading or anatomy errors. I really don't think that this would change the sprites much, making alts pretty pointless.

I don't think minimal updates must be included anywhere, TJ posted here saying

 

I'm all for any update that can be seen as an iterative, quantitative improvement (and, despite this being art, some updates are indeed quantitative--lighting or anatomy that was incorrect being fixed is objectively better, despite potential opinions to the contrary).

 

Larger improvements or complete revamps are cause to move slower, but I see no reason to hold back smaller anatomy and shading fixes (like the 09 Valentine changes) for "attachment" reasons.

 

So small updates are already part of the normal routine. These alts are being proposed as an alternative to have new sprites to old dragons. Well, the alts mechanics can be pretty troublesome, specially for rares, so why not support an old project that is already discussed a lot with the community? Also, ascension is not only a new sprite project, there is a lot of RPG qualities considered too. It's much more interesting than an alt and don't remove one single sprite that already exist and also don't envolve to have to hunt dragons again and collect them all over again.

[NotBambi]

But that's an entirely different suggestion. Most of us are trying to find a way to incorporate minimal updates to old sprites, but some people just aren't having it. Even if alts were implemented, I think we are just trying to find a way to fix a few minor shading or anatomy errors. I really don't think that this would change the sprites much, making alts pretty pointless.

Yes, that's an entirely different suggestion, maybe someone could just bump it. I will not because after one page I was completely confused.

Furthermore, I would have thought that TJ's post is quite clear for what concerns small fixes like the ones you just referenced. No?

 

@danicast: since, as you brought up, there is already a topic for Ascension, there is no reason to bring that same discussion, off topic, to this. We can discuss them separately and TJ will decide. Easy, no?

Edited July 5, 2015 by NotBambi

[zaverxi]

At first people just wanted the sprites touched up a little, like with the GoN. But for some reason, that was vehemently refused by several users.

I guess people were afraid of the sprites being completely revamped, like the golds.

 

I, personally, hated the previous sprites for golds. I thought they were flat, boring, anatomically incorrect, and barely shaded at all, especially compared to more contemporary sprites people were coming out with at the time. So when they were replaced with our current sprites, I was happy, although I do like the male pose better than the female.

 

But there's people who hated the new ones and still do to this day, so... *shrug*

 

There's always going to be people against any and all changes.

 

I do think that some old sprites just need some touch ups, that complete revamps are unnecessary.

 

And some, I think would benefit from alts, like I already mentioned. Or at the very least, introduce dimorphism, although I can see where that would ruin some lineages.

[danicast]

@danicast: since, as you brought up, there is already a topic for Ascension, there is no reason to bring that same discussion, off topic, to this. We can discuss them separately and TJ will decide. Easy, no?

I think ascension and alts have similar characteristics but different game mechanics with a common result: new sprites options for old dragons but without replacement. I brought the ascension for this discussion because there is no point in have 2 different game mechanics for the same result: new shiny sprites for an old dragon. I rather prefer to have ascension, that brings a new game mechanics that don't require from the player to have to hunt again the dragons than simply support the existence of alts for several dragons (which will require to hunt and raise the dragons again). That's why I brought the idea of ascension to this thread. There is no problem to discuss both ideas in this thread, IMO. I think the new users can gain a lot knowing that a similar idea was already discussed in DC in the past.

Edited July 5, 2015 by danicast

[Tehya Faye]

I think the only thing Ascension doesn't have going for it that this does is increased hunting in the caves. If TJ isn't fond of other methods for forcing more commons into the system this certainly will. But again, it would have to be strictly commons. Ascension has more flexibility on which breeds can get a new sprite without any serious consequences beyond, "Well, a dragon I included in my lineage was ascended. Now it's not perfect anymore." which would be kinda annoying, I'll admit.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[NotBambi]

Ascension has more flexibility on which breeds can get a new sprite without any serious consequences beyond, "Well, a dragon I included in my lineage was ascended. Now it's not perfect anymore." which would be kinda annoying, I'll admit.

Yeah, I can imagine the reactions to that...