Alts for older dragon types.

[NotBambi]

I'm not sure I understand. Are we talking about Alts with the same mechanism of Nebulae? Or as for Blacks and Vines and Undines? If we are talking about the first case, that's fine with me, full support. Otherwise, I'm completely indifferent: there is no way that I will collect old sprites that I avoid collecting today with low chance of obtaining an Alt breeding them and still have those sprites in the lineage. Exactly like today I ignore 2G normal Black and Vine hatchies in the AP, I will just ignore the fails.

[JavaTigress]

I wouldn't MIND this, per se, but I do have some concerns.

 

Number ONE is that you would need to get any new spritework OKed by the original creators of the dragons (They might want to do any new sprites, themselves)... and some of those artists may no longer be a part of this site. In fact, I can think of at least ONE example where that is definitely the case. The other thing IS that, as someone else said, often times, with the alts we already ahve, fails get tossed straight back to the AP upon hatching ( ALTHOUGH I do realize that some people whappily adopt alt-fail hatchies.... hatchies are usually more desirable than eggies. I myself have adopted alt-fail blacks from time to time). AS for the idea of old versus new sprites.... I am not OVERLY strongly opinionated on it either way. I happen to love the new golds, for instance... though I am not sure I ever REALLY had a chance to fall in love with the old gold sprites.... I was a newbie back then and golds... were hard to come by I DO, however, respect the opinions of those that feel differently. I think, that as Thuban said, a middle ground is probably best as you won't please everyone whatever you do..

Edited July 4, 2015 by Silverswift

[Thuban]

"If the old sprites aren't desired, then why keep them?"

 

 

Ok, so how about this idea then: Have new ones released side by side with current ones (higher ratios for new ones at first, so new ones can catch up if needed) Then over time, while new ones keep priority, have the old ones breed and drop in cave at "alt black" like ratios. This way, new players that come in a year after the changes arent stuck in a position where it is impossible to get them as cbs or breds, people who are attached to the originals can still collect them, but at the same time, its far more likely you will get the newer version. That sound fair?

 

Edit to clarify the idea:

~Release new versions of things as its own breed, alongside the original (new ones at 100% drop rate at first)

~Over time, have old versions start dropping and breeding at equal chances, until both versions have evened out.

~Once numbers hit TJs magic number, have old versions drop as the alt so knew ones keep priority (however, unlike current alts, still allow cb old versions to drop, if possible in cave rarely, so that new people coming in, and those who prefer old ones can still collect them as cbs, even if it has to be at rare levels)

Edited July 4, 2015 by Thuban

[Jazeki]

Would the "old sprite" become the alt if this were to happen? Or would the "updated" sprite be considered the alt? Because I can see the logic for having alts introduced instead of totally replacing older sprites, but I am not sure if it will increase interest in those older breeds if there's an alt version available. As others have mentioned, many people are more interested in the alt versions of dragons than non-alts.

[Esko]

Look, we all know that there are users who throw alt fails into the AP. Some don't collect them at all. But there are still the users who adopt them. I am a user who won't bother hatching eggs I am not currently looking for, but will snap the hatchlings right away.

 

I like this idea. Even though we would have to chase artists around for perms, it should work out for the better in the end.

[Thuban]

Would the "old sprite" become the alt if this were to happen? Or would the "updated" sprite be considered the alt? Because I can see the logic for having alts introduced instead of totally replacing older sprites, but I am not sure if it will increase interest in those older breeds if there's an alt version available. As others have mentioned, many people are more interested in the alt versions of dragons than non-alts.

I updated my previous comment to expand on the idea I had, because I realized it was confusing.

 

What im pitching now, is having the new ones be the common, and the old ones eventually dropping to an alt like ratio. (ideally still dropping in cave rarely, but at least breeding like alts). This keeps old ones in circulation, without being forced to collect them. New things would have new eggs, so cave caught ones you could know right away if alt or not)

[Jazeki]

I updated my previous comment to expand on the idea I had, because I realized it was confusing.

 

What im pitching now, is having the new ones be the common, and the old ones eventually dropping to an alt like ratio. (ideally still dropping in cave rarely, but at least breeding like alts). This keeps old ones in circulation, without being forced to collect them. New things would have new eggs, so cave caught ones you could know right away if alt or not)

Thu, when I started typing my reply, your post wasn't there yet. :3

 

I like your idea, but I still don't quite understand how having alts will garner interest in the older sprites (aside from those who already like them or are getting them for collection purposes). And the general idea of creating alts for older sprites seems like it's introducing a slippery slope of "Let's just create an alt because this dragon is x amount of time old and I think it needs updating."

[JavaTigress]

Thu, when I started typing my reply, your post wasn't there yet. :3

 

I like your idea, but I still don't quite understand how having alts will garner interest in the older sprites (aside from those who already like them or are getting them for collection purposes). And the general idea of creating alts for older sprites seems like it's introducing a slippery slope of "Let's just create an alt because this dragon is x amount of time old and I think it needs updating."

And THAT is where getting permission from th eartists would come in.

 

If they didn't want it, they could say No.

[Ha-Ki]

I updated my previous comment to expand on the idea I had, because I realized it was confusing.

 

What im pitching now, is having the new ones be the common, and the old ones eventually dropping to an alt like ratio. (ideally still dropping in cave rarely, but at least breeding like alts). This keeps old ones in circulation, without being forced to collect them. New things would have new eggs, so cave caught ones you could know right away if alt or not)

I'd hate that, it would ruin lineage projects if a breed you're using is suddenly becoming ridiculously rare because of an update. I'm ok if the ratios are not 50:50 and the new ones are slightly more common, but the old ones should still be reasonably available. If they work like nebulae, that would be perfect in my opinion. If there's one old alt for each 2-3 new ones, that's still acceptable, but don't make them rarer than that, please.

 

I'm trying to fulfill an IOU for a specific 2nd gen alt black since September, and I have two breeding pairs for that which I bred weekly without success yet for 10 months. I definitely don't want to run into the same situation with old common sprites, just because they got an update.

[danicast]

After much thinking I got into the conclusion that I'm against this idea.

 

Each user have their preferences about sprites. I don't collect dragons with sprites that I don't like, no matter if they are old or new. I would not like to be forced to start collecting a specific dragon just in the hope to get an alt new sprite and I also wouldn't like to have a dragon that I really love changed in any way.

 

I think that new sprites belong to new released dragons. I think alt belongs to dragons which were conceived to have alts.

 

There are too many ugly case scenarios envolving this suggestion that I don't like, as an example see what happens to ridgewings, everybody wants tan ridgewings and the ap always have lots of CB purple ridgewings because people don't want them.

 

Another problem is how much feasible this idea would be with the question to have to ask to the original spriters if people are allowed to make alts for their dragons. I know that all dragons belong to TJ and TJ can do whatever he wants because there is a signed agreement but in all this time of DC the spriters were always respected and I wouldn't like to see that changed.

 

I think it's much better to leave the old sprites alone and propose new dragons if you want to see new sprites in the cave. And if you want dragons with alts, propose them with alts since the beginning of the project.

[Syrup]

Could there not be some 'toggle' button should many sprites get cleaned up?

 

Like, you could have a setting that says 'display older sprites' instead of seeing the new ones? Or would that not work? I don't know, I'm not a coder.

[danicast]

Could there not be some 'toggle' button should many sprites get cleaned up?

 

Like, you could have a setting that says 'display older sprites' instead of seeing the new ones? Or would that not work? I don't know, I'm not a coder.

This suggestion is not about replace sprites for other ones, it's about have alt dragons with different sprites, so a toggle button make no sense in this suggestion.

[AnanoKimi]

Just to make sure I understand all of that, you seem to prefer the idea of replacements, but if they show up as alts instead, you are happy as long as the eggs are different, right? Same descriptions and such are fine, you just want different eggs (which would probably be done in the newer style, which should be enough in most cases I think)

Yep. Same description, different eggs. like ridgewing and dorsals. That way people know what they're getting off the bat. If the eggs could be modified so with like ridgewings and dorsals, the user could know "This is the older alt, this is the newer version" then I would like that if a cleaned up sprite is definitely a no no. Like just having the exact same sprite and just making it look better. The example I used about artists who draw the exact same image they drew x years ago but with improved artistic skill is what I meant.

[NotBambi]

Ok, so how about this idea then: Have new ones released side by side with current ones (higher ratios for new ones at first, so new ones can catch up if needed) Then over time, while new ones keep priority, have the old ones breed and drop in cave at "alt black" like ratios. This way, new players that come in a year after the changes arent stuck in a position where it is impossible to get them as cbs or breds, people who are attached to the originals can still collect them, but at the same time, its far more likely you will get the newer version. That sound fair?

 

Edit to clarify the idea:

~Release new versions of things as its own breed, alongside the original (new ones at 100% drop rate at first)

~Over time, have old versions start dropping and breeding at equal chances, until both versions have evened out.

~Once numbers hit TJs magic number, have old versions drop as the alt so knew ones keep priority (however, unlike current alts, still allow cb old versions to drop, if possible in cave rarely, so that new people coming in, and those who prefer old ones can still collect them as cbs, even if it has to be at rare levels)

^^I really like this!

[Windnose]

What im pitching now, is having the new ones be the common, and the old ones eventually dropping to an alt like ratio. (ideally still dropping in cave rarely, but at least breeding like alts). This keeps old ones in circulation, without being forced to collect them. New things would have new eggs, so cave caught ones you could know right away if alt or not)

I do like this idea. It would make the current sprites desirable. But I'm not so sure the DC community as a whole would like this. It seems like everyone has that one old sprite that they love and want to be able to get more of easily if they wish.

(ETA: This suggestion might be worth putting into the first post, so others can view it and we can get an idea of how exactly the DC community feels about it.)

 

On the other hand, I've always supported having the old sprites updated, not like what happened to the Golds (although I love the newer Gold sprites- so many people were upset), but like what happened to the GoN- it looks the same as the original, but the shading, coloring, anatomy, etc has been updated to match the spriter's current ability. But this is something that is left entirely up to the spriters, and doing this would defeat the purpose of this thread.

 

I suppose that whether or not I support this thread will depend entirely on how the alts are produced. If, for example, the alt White was only produced by having both a White mother and a White father, then I think I could support it. People would find the originals desirable because they would be needed to get the alts.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Windnose

[Pixxelation]

Adding alts for old breeds seems very unnecessary, IMO. It doesn't really address the underlying issue of outdated art, and would probably just take up releases during the year. I'd rather see the art receive an update or be left alone. Honestly, this seems more like it would lead to another Bright Pinks vs Pinks than anything, and that's not something I'd personally like to see happen again.

 

I'd much rather receive new breeds than alts of existing ones.

[NotBambi]

Adding alts for old breeds seems very unnecessary, IMO. It doesn't really address the underlying issue of outdated art, and would probably just take up releases during the year. I'd rather see the art receive an update or be left alone. Honestly, this seems more like it would lead to another Bright Pinks vs Pinks than anything, and that's not something I'd personally like to see happen again.

 

I'd much rather receive new breeds than alts of existing ones.

I must agree that the issue here is outdated art but even the suggestion of replacement of that outdated art seems to create drama. I understand that people want to keep old sprites because of the history of the site. So, why not create an "History Biome"? So people that really like the old sprites can pick them up there and updated ones would be in normal biomes.

[danicast]

I must agree that the issue here is outdated art but even the suggestion of replacement of that outdated art seems to create drama. I understand that people want to keep old sprites because of the history of the site. So, why not create an "History Biome"? So people that really like the old sprites can pick them up there and updated ones would be in normal biomes.

No.

If this suggestion is going to become a suggestion to "update" old sprites then I will call the mods to close the suggestion like the last one.

 

As LadyLyzar said:

 

This opens up a big can of worms that could lead to hurt feelings, and lots of nitpicking that is going to burn people out very quickly. I don't think making sprite update suggestions public is a good idea. What someone dislikes about a sprite could be something someone else loves.

 

So keep the suggestion in "make alts" and don't try to make it "update sprites".

 

 

[Windnose]

I must agree that the issue here is outdated art but even the suggestion of replacement of that outdated art seems to create drama. I understand that people want to keep old sprites because of the history of the site. So, why not create an "History Biome"? So people that really like the old sprites can pick them up there and updated ones would be in normal biomes.

I need to double check my sources and when I do, I'll edit in a link here to confirm it, but I'm certain TJ has already said no to having both original and updated sprites of the same species at the same time.

 

ETA: I'm not entirely sure where to find TJ saying that there will not be both updated and original sprites, but LadyLyzar mentions him saying it in this post (link). I'm not going to keep looking since you have clarified what you meant, but I wanted to followup with this post.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Windnose

[NotBambi]

Adding alts for old breeds seems very unnecessary, IMO. It doesn't really address the underlying issue of outdated art, and would probably just take up releases during the year. I'd rather see the art receive an update or be left alone. Honestly, this seems more like it would lead to another Bright Pinks vs Pinks than anything, and that's not something I'd personally like to see happen again.

 

I'd much rather receive new breeds than alts of existing ones.

OK, I will re-phrase:

I must agree that the issue here is outdated art but even the suggestion of replacement of that outdated art seems to create drama. I understand that people want to keep old sprites because of the history of the site. So, why not create an "History Biome"? So people that really like the old sprites can pick them up there and ALT ones would be in normal biomes.

[danicast]

OK, I will re-phrase:

I must agree that the issue here is outdated art but even the suggestion of replacement of that outdated art seems to create drama. I understand that people want to keep old sprites because of the history of the site. So, why not create an "History Biome"? So people that really like the old sprites can pick them up there and ALT ones would be in normal biomes.

As far as I understand the issue here is not "outdated art" but propose alts. As I already said, if the issue is "outdated art" then I think we should end this discussion because there are people who love the current sprites and dragons and this is a discussion that goes no where and promotes drama.

 

Please keep in mind that everybody is free to collect the dragons that they want. If you hate "dragon X" because you think it's ugly, outdated, whatever reason, nobody is forcing you to collect that dragon. You can just ignore their eggs and let people who love that dragon collect them.

Edited July 4, 2015 by danicast

[NotBambi]

As far as I understand the issue here is not "outdated art" but propose alts. As I already said, if the issue is "outdated art" then I think we should end this discussion because there are people who love the current sprites and dragons and this is a discussion that goes no where and promotes drama.

 

Please keep in mind that everybody is free to collect the dragons that they want. If you hate "dragon X" because you think it's ugly, outdated, whatever reason, nobody is forcing you to collect that dragon. You can just ignore their eggs and let people who love that dragon collect them.

One: I didn't suggest to get rid of the outdated sprites, just to create an History Biome for them. Two: yes, I collect what I want; the issue here is that, when the majority of the users do not collect what they do not want, the biomes do not move and the users are not free to collect what they want.

Edited July 4, 2015 by NotBambi

[dragongrrl]

I realize many people are into Alts, but I haven't done much with them, just because my dragons are not the most co-operative bunch when it comes to Alts. From my CBs, I've managed to breed only 2 Vines, 2 Soulpeace, 1 Goldfish, 0 Undines and 0 Blacks despite numerous attempts, especially from my Blacks.

 

Dorsals and Ridgewings don't like to play nice either, although I prefer the Alt of both breeds, but I don't feel like wasting my time in fruitless pursuits. I haven't even seen Almandines or Spessartines in the Cave yet, and have no CBs of either on my scroll, so far. It's a good thing that the Pyropes are my favorite of the three. I haven't done much with Nebulas, so I can't judge them here.

 

The only ones that breed really well for me are the Geodes, and that's a little frustrating, since I'd like to breed an EG PB to at least 4 gens, but the Greens just want to drop Geodes.

 

The Hellhorses are the most reasonable ones on my scroll, even if it goes against their breed description. My Coppers and Stripes are very well-mannered, too.

 

I'd hate to see Alts for my Mints or Nocturnes. I love them as they are. I prefer stand alone breeds, since Alts are simply a frustration I don't need.

[danicast]

One: I didn't suggest to get rid of the outdated sprites, just to create an History Biome for them. Two: yes, I collect what I want; the issue here is that, when the majority of the users do not collect what they do not want, the biomes do not move and the users are not free to collect what they want.

If the problem is to move the biomes, then, maybe you would like to see one of the suggestions about how to improve the biomes, like this one:

Suggestion to move the Biomes.

 

The art of the sprite have nothing to do with that, biome movement is much more related to the fact that many people don't want to collect the dragons that are there, old or new.

[Thuban]

With my suggestion, new versions of old things are only alts for a little while. Over time, the NEW ones would become the common, and old versions would then be alt. Its not exactly "retiring" old ones at that point, it just leaves the old versions harder to get.

 

The new ones get priority. The old ones still exist, but become harder to obtain. This is the middle ground between straight replacements, and keeping them the same, at least for up to this point in the thread.

 

Im not going to suggest specific breeds to be updated (because I prefer to leave them alone, even if I personally don't like something) however, to use the OPs example breed, I wouldn't complain if they got an update, as long as the ones I have currently are left alone.

 

As much drama as it causes, I would far rather breeds be retired when they get an upgrade, than replaced, if both cant happen at once (so I can keep old version). Of course, ultimately I dont want to retire things either.