ANSWERED:Suggestions to improve the raffle

[Obscure_Trash]

I would prefer 3 to 7 if we do a release.

[Vhale]

7, I agree with DarkEternity. And the same reason my opinion is no on CB alt blacks. Bearing in mind, even Teleport didn't have 100% support so I don't expect my opinion to have veto powers. It's just my opinion.

 

My concern over 7 besides ethics is I don't think it would help. Here's a site poll showing metals Metals Owned And one for Tinsels How Many Tinsels

 

Granted, I have 1 CB metal in 4 years and it's bred true twice, so I'd rather have an uncommon Coal variant than a rare hunt.

[Pokemonfan13]

about #4- Maybe my memory is faulty but as far as I'm aware the only reason for removing multiclutches was because they weren't necessary anymore, it wasn't because players wanted more control over where their eggs went.

 

Since we are here discussing ways to increase the odds of getting some version of prizes to the community at large, it seems to me that multiclutching is just one more way to do that very thing.

 

The whole needing control of every aspect of our dragon scrolls is a different topic IMO.

Yes, the reason for multiclutches to begin with was there weren't enough eggs to go around originally, and since lineage view wasn't available bred eggs were just as good as CB eggs. So people would breed to abandon to give other people something to raise. Multiclutches helped with this by allowing each breeding to produce more eggs. They were done away with when they weren't necessary any more, because there were enough eggs to go around and bred eggs weren't as desirable as they used to be.

 

So multiclutching prizes is perfectly valid way of spreading them more and is perfectly in line with the original use of multiclutches.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[HeatherMarie]

I'd ONLY agree with #7 if it was future-on and completely honest. As in, doesn't apply to Shimmers or Tinsels, because they have already been given out as Prize Dragons under certain expectations. If *future* Prize Dragons were given out with the *understanding* that they would be available in-cave in a few years, that would be fine.

 

I like #1.

 

Don't like #2. Any more "events", raffle or otherwise, just means taking away from our already-sparse regular releases.

 

#6 might help things.

 

None of the others really jump out at me.

[Pokemonfan13]

I'd ONLY agree with #7 if it was future-on and completely honest. As in, doesn't apply to Shimmers or Tinsels, because they have already been given out as Prize Dragons under certain expectations. If *future* Prize Dragons were given out with the *understanding* that they would be available in-cave in a few years, that would be fine.

 

I like #1.

 

Don't like #2. Any more "events", raffle or otherwise, just means taking away from our already-sparse regular releases. 

 

#6 might help things.

 

None of the others really jump out at me.

In that case they would at least have to be available as HM prizes, or else CBs [and therefore new 2nd gens] would "go extinct".

 

 

But really, I think the best way to go about considering #7 is a private questioning of available tinsel owners [and shimmer owners] with all answers anonymous to see how they would feel about the dragons being public two years after retirement.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The way I see it, winning a Prize is more akin to winning money then to winning an exclusive coin. With a fancy coin, you can only profit off it once, and would have to lose the coin to do so, while with winning money you can profit off of it for a very long time. If Prizes couldn't breed, or even simply couldn't breed true, then yes, winners should get to keep them as exclusives, because it would be in being exclusive that their worth lies, like a keepsake coin. However, they CAN breed true, and as such their worth is continual, like a cash prize, which is why I think they should be treated as a cash prize.

 

Now, what happens when someone wins a fortune in cash? They profit off it for a long time, but eventually the money seeps out into the community. Other people get the same money that the rich person had, but they will never have it in the same quantity. Even when the rich person has spent their whole fortune, they will still have the stuff they spent it on, and thus will be richer then all the other people who got it in less concentrated amounts.

 

The same is true of Prize dragons. Even if Prizes were released in-cave, they would never bring the supreme wealth to those who catch them that those who won them originally got. The original winners are and always will be richer then everyone else because of all the things they 'spent' their fortune on (trades they got for their offspring when they were the sole CB owners). Yet at the same time everyone else will be happy because they finally got a true piece of that fortune to do with as they please (CBs of their own) rather then just having to make due with the second-hand bits the rich gave to them, in most cases at great cost (lineaged ones).

 

...Hm. I hope that comparison made sense, it sounded better in my head.

 

At any rate, above all else--I justify it by saying that this is a game, and games should be as fair and fun as possible. Adding in exclusive elements that only an extremely minor fraction of the site will ever get, that are only released once a year and that you can do absolutely nothing to earn your way up towards, is not really fun or in my opinion fair. At least with CB Metals you can slowly earn your way up to one by doing IOUs for people you trust who can catch them. The same can't be said of CB Prizes. Adding in an element to the game that is so unobtainable for the vast, vast majority is far too close to resembling the random tough-luck reality of the real world and is not something I want to deal with in a fantasy game as well.

 

(Plus... and this is neither here nor there... but I feel that the exclusivity of CB Prizes has severely messed up DC's economy. Trading in the game operates on two levels now: 2nd gen Prizes & CB Metals, and everything else. There are a few breaches here and there, but in general I feel that CB Metals are even harder to obtain for most now than they were before, because almost everyone wants to trade their CB Metals for the grand prize of a 2nd gen baby rather then multiple lesser prizes from the common folks. I hardly even see CB Metals going for NDs anymore, which used to be the great equalizer between those with fast connections and those without...)

Edited February 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Shala]

Okay, this is just a question, so please don't shoot me.

 

Did TJ ever promise that prize dragons would forever remain exclusively prizes, or are we all just assuming that?

Perhaps tinsels were 'retired' this past raffle because TJ intends to release them in-cave at some point this year.

Just a thought...

 

Shala

 

ETA: FWIW, I get exactly what you're saying angelicdragonpuppy, and I agree - they ARE more like a cash prize, or the proverbial golden goose.

Edited February 25, 2013 by ShaladorsLady

[Jazeki]

I apologize in advance for the weird formatting. The cat is putting her paws all over the keyboard.

 

Suggestion #1:

Increase the number of prize dragons given in the raffle. I support this option. I support all around prizes (including HMs).

 

 

 

Suggestion #2:

Have more than one raffle in a year. I wouldn't be opposed to doing one for each season of the year (meaning four)....Spring and fall ones would just be smaller since there is the Halloween Release and DC's birthday is in the spring.

 

 

Suggestion #3:

Release a dully colored variant of the prize dragons. Designed to be not as pretty as the prizes, but still nice looking.

It could be done in multiple ways:

1. Permanent rare dragon in the cave

2. Holiday style release, where they flood the cave and then vanish. With or without a limit on the number of CBs obtainable.

3. “Consolation prize”, where every non-winning raffle entry gets the dully colored variant.

4. Combination of above. Yes, with emphasis on 2, 3, and 4.

 

 

Suggestion #4:

Make CB prize dragons multiclutch prize eggs. It would make finding a 2nd gen prize in the AP not inconceivable and would help spread around low gen prizes.

Not really, because there is no guarantee that people will breed them like they breed holidays. Also, holidays have multiclutch enabled, yet sometimes only produce one egg.

Suggestion #5:

Add retired prizes to the list of HM prizes. Yes.

Suggestion #6:

Ensure that newly released prize dragons only produce prize eggs for the first x months, allowing them to spread more quickly. No to this for the same reason as four. They are still rare and being spread like rares do, in most cases for an arm and a leg.

 

Suggestion #7:

Add retired prizes to the cave as rares. Maybe. It depends on the ratios.

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

At any rate, above all else--I justify it by saying that this is a game, and games should be as fair and fun as possible. Adding in exclusive elements that only an extremely minor fraction of the site will ever get, that are only released once a year and that you can do absolutely nothing to earn your way up towards, is not really fun or in my opinion fair. At least with CB Metals you can slowly earn your way up to one by doing IOUs for people you trust who can catch them. The same can't be said of CB Prizes. Adding in an element to the game that is so unobtainable for the vast, vast majority is far too close to resembling the random tough-luck reality of the real world and is not something I want to deal with in a fantasy game as well.

I get what you guys are saying, I really do.

 

But this isn't something that's exclusive to "Prize Dragons", so I don't see how "Prize Dragons" are the only thing "ruining" DC's economy, if you do think that that. So only a small number of users can get CB-Prize Dragons.... so what? Users can only get CB holiday dragons if they are online (and able to actually *get* one) during that very very narrow holiday-drop window. EVERYONE else loses out, has NO way of obtaining a CB holiday-of-that-year.

 

So if handing out Prize Dragons is so unbelievably unfair, then it stands to reason that CB holiday dragons are just as unfair. They have the same limitations, same "exclusivity" or whatever you want to call it.

 

All I'm trying to say is that I don't understand why it's such a huge deal that a *game* includes a *raffle* where *anyone* can enter, and it's completely *random* who actually wins those prizes... But somehow that's the only problem with DC's economy?

[Shamiir]

I may have supported DarkEternity's view on point #7...

But - Tinsels were brought out in Raffle Year 1... and again in Raffle Year 2.

We all approached Christmas expecting Tinsels yet again until we learned otherwise.

And for all we knew at that stage, TJ might have increased the prizes to 1000's. We, the players, had no way of knowing TJs future intentions.

 

There has never been any guarantee of exclusivity.

If the Tinsels had been put out as the annual prize 'forever', then I would say hands off.

It may be debatable how many years before releasing former prize dragons but I think it is worth thinking about.

[Shala]

So if handing out Prize Dragons is so unbelievably unfair, then it stands to reason that CB holiday dragons are just as unfair. They have the same limitations, same "exclusivity" or whatever you want to call it.

I get what you're saying here, too. BUT, let's put 'exclusive' in perspective: There are TEN CB gold tinsels in existence on the site, and not all of those are still actively producing eggs. Versus (this is a guesstimate) >40,000 wrapping-wings (for example). Yes, they were 'limited release', but EVERY active player had three days to get their two CBs, and I guarantee the AP will be flooded with beautiful 2nd gens next December for anyone who wants one, and trading value would be nil for those who look for trades. Compare that to 2nd gen tinsels still being traded for CB metals (oftentimes multiples, apparently - I wouldn't know, I don't have any, and not for lack of trying), and you'll understand why people are upset about what prizes have done to the DC economy.

 

I guess this means I support #7, maybe in combination with #1, and I wouldn't be opposed to #4. Thanks for helping me to crystallize why.

Edited February 25, 2013 by ShaladorsLady

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I get what you guys are saying, I really do.

 

But this isn't something that's exclusive to "Prize Dragons", so I don't see how "Prize Dragons" are the only thing "ruining" DC's economy, if you do think that that. So only a small number of users can get CB-Prize Dragons.... so what? Users can only get CB holiday dragons if they are online (and able to actually *get* one) during that very very narrow holiday-drop window. EVERYONE else loses out, has NO way of obtaining a CB holiday-of-that-year.

 

So if handing out Prize Dragons is so unbelievably unfair, then it stands to reason that CB holiday dragons are just as unfair. They have the same limitations, same "exclusivity" or whatever you want to call it.

 

All I'm trying to say is that I don't understand why it's such a huge deal that a *game* includes a *raffle* where *anyone* can enter, and it's completely *random* who actually wins those prizes... But somehow that's the only problem with DC's economy?

This is true, yet the population of CB Holidays is still extremely, extremely vast compared to that of CB Prizes, is it not? I offered a 2nd gen Val '09 from Gold for free in IRC and only one person asked for it after several minutes. The only really valuable Holidays are CB Hollies, so I don't think CB Holidays are as exclusive or have as big an effect on the economy and mentality of DC as CB Prizes.

 

That being said--I hate exclusivity in all its forms. I really do. DC's lack of exclusivity was what drew me here over other adoptables sites in the first place, and I would like to see it staying as much like that as possible. If I could have it my way we'd still have CB Frills and Old Pinks in the cave, everyone could get all the variations of Snow Angels and Sweetlings, and there would be second chances at getting CB Holidays. However, all of those things have been a part of DC for so long (and in some cases are all but confirmed irreversible--we've asked for Frills back and the artist will not budge, and even with the massive outcry over the Snow Angels nothing changed T___T) that I've largely given up on fighting for them. However, Prizes are somewhat more new and, as far as I can tell, are only truly being discussed in fervor now, so there is still hope for changes. As such, I will continue to push for those changes.

 

And yes, it's just a game, but when you enjoy a game you want to see it be the best game it can be, no? At any rate, regarding DC's economy--I don't really think the economy is as messy as everyone seems to believe. However, that being said, if you DO think it's flawed, then even if the exclusivity of CB Prizes is not the sole factor hurting it, do you at least agree that it is a fairly substantial problem? What I said about CB Metals rarely going for anything but 2nd gen Prizes anymore is true, is it not? And it was true before the Shimmers were released as well.

Edited February 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Slaskia]

Marie, there's a big difference between CB prizes and CB Holidays. Numbers.

 

Hundreds, perhaps even thousands of CB holidays are grabbed by users every holiday. Then they multi-clutch during their season, spreading 2+ gens far and wide: how often is the AP clogged with holiday eggs during that time? Yeah....

 

CB Prizes are only a drop in the bucket compared to CB Holidays, so CB Holidays is not a good example to use imo.

 

Plus what ShaladorsLady said.

[Pokemonfan13]

Please remember to stay on topic. I understand this is a slippery slope, as some of the forbidden subjects are part of reasons why the suggestions should or should not be considered, but try to touch on them as lightly as possible and not go onto side conversations about them. =3

[Starscream]

I do see both sides of the coin in regards to #7 I will explain with an example that is perhaps the most similar to the situation.

 

PF13: I hope this is on topic as best I can.

 

The example is a transformers exclusive that became available to the public a few years later.

 

Transformers geek here and it relates to a situation with a release of transformers "classics" variant of Starscream's companions Skywarp and Thundercracker as well as Thrust. - Possibly dirge. I forget. (Decepticon fighter jets)

 

An rather popular Transformers convention in the USA called Botcon released a set of figures that included some extremely desirable figures as "convention exclusives." people bought these up and they went for sale on ebay at very very high prices. As like anywhere, there was a bit of a huff about it from fans who could not A: go to botcon or B: afford the through the roof prices.

 

I admit I was disappointed at how the figures I had hoped to obtain for my own collection was so out of reach.

 

But....

 

I am not sure what happened, exactly. But a year or two later, Henkei Transformers came out which was a Takara variant of the Classics transformers released at the Botcon. But this time it was available to the public through "exclusive shops" I had a contact in Japan who obtained me two of each. One for myself and one for a friend at no more cost t0 my friend that price + shared shipping. Think the total was somewhere around 90 or 100 USD for the 4 figures +shipping anyway I digress.

 

The people who did buy the Botcon transformers were outraged that there was a japanese release. The outcry from them was, 'their toys were going to lose value." their argument is perhaps valid, but in some ways they needed to see that those who are willing to pay their prices will pay their prices.

 

Those like myself were happy to have a slightly different variant of the same figure. Those like myself were not willing to pay their prices so we were Okay to do without until the unexpected Henkei release.

 

Eventually the two figures were released to the North America market in the standard run of the mill shops, such as walmart, Target, Zellers (In canada) etc.. By then I had stepped back from the TF forums scenes because they could be very agitated about anything. So I am unaware of how the Botcon exclusive owners reacted to that. I think the line was called Transformers Universe, but I am not entirely sure that is correct. so many Transformers lines.

 

It's a double edged sword, if you try to look at it both ways:

 

One side felt slighted, and perhaps justifiably so that there was a release of a figure that was called a "botcon exclusive"

 

The other side felt slighted as they were wanting a public release of the very popular characters to complete their sets.

 

~~

 

Both sides were pleased with what they had:

 

The botcon exclusive owners with their set, and believe it it was a beautiful set <3

 

The General public with the release of Henkei figures. I think in regards to the character thrust, he was released to the public with a different wingset.

 

~~

 

However, those botcon exclusives still demand very high prices and are highly collectable. For those who wish to play with a toy, there is something less expensive and less guilt free to mess around with <3

 

I think in regards to #7 Sure some of the prize winners may be upset, but their originals will still fetch a decent trade value for those who wish to try to obtain the originals.

 

Perhaps the re-releases are more brown than bronze, more Ochre than gold, more white or grey than silver. or maybe some detail on them is changed to give them that difference that maintains the originals uniqueness. Even something so subtle as changing the red berries in their tinsel to green, blue or yellow.

 

That is how I see #7 working.

 

The general lesson here is no one idea is going to please everyone. Everyone will have a point for or against.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Perhaps the re-releases are more brown than bronze, more Ochre than gold, more white or grey than silver. or maybe some detail on them is changed to give them that difference that maintains the originals uniqueness. Even something so subtle as changing the red berries in their tinsel to green, blue or yellow.

Oooh, there's a thought. Maybe they could simply have their green wreath thingies removed entirely, if the original spriter'd be okay with it? That'd provide clear proof of who the originals are, would still likely earn them high prices for their offspring (like Spriter's Alts), but would still allow the rest of us to get our own CBs and make our own beautiful lineages that we've always envisioned.

 

Whenever the time comes for the Shimmerscales, perhaps originals could have a pearly egg added in, while the public release would not have such a thing.

[Pokemonfan13]

I like the idea of removing the wreaths of the tinsels for the public release [since those can be seen as a sign of winning], but what could be done for the shimmers? Remove their whiskers? x3

[Starscream]

Shimmers, perhaps less of a shimmer? Maybe they could be the ones that are more brown, ochre and grey?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I like the idea of removing the wreaths of the tinsels for the public release [since those can be seen as a sign of winning], but what could be done for the shimmers? Remove their whiskers? x3

Their description says they often carry an egg that looks like a jewel. Add that in the original prizes, while the later ones won't have one. Let them have eggs...!

[Pokemonfan13]

Maybe change the color of their fur somewhat. Like make the fur on the silver greener or change it to a similar shade of blue instead of greenish.

 

Their description says they often carry an egg that looks like a jewel. Add that in the original prizes, while the later ones won't have one. Let them have eggs...!

That's a great idea! <3 Either hand is even in a position that it could be holding one.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[Starscream]

the fur change could be a great idea, now I think of it.

 

So idea is Remove the wreathes of the tinsels and change fur colour of the shimmers to give them a distinct alternate look to the original prizes.

 

Edit: or the eggs.

 

Does this work as suggestion #8?

Edited February 25, 2013 by Starscream

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Maybe change the color of their fur somewhat.  Like make the fur on the silver greener or change it to a similar shade of blue instead of greenish.

I'd really prefer it was something little like an egg or the removal of the whiskers over a color change... color changes are a bit too noticeable, IMO. The whole point of wanting a version of the originals released rather than a total recolor is because we want them to look as much alike as possible for lineage building's sake. ^^

 

Although... I'm not sure an egg or lacking whiskers would really signify winner versus none the way the Tinsel's wreathes do, unless the whiskers somehow represent a rarer strain of the breed, haha. Hm. Maybe if the egg was really shiny... or if the spriter'd be willing to add in some wreathes...

 

At any rate. Perhaps descendants from the original Tinsels could have the special sprite, while ones from in-cave CBs wouldn't? That'd encourage people to still get ones from the originals.

Edited February 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Pokemonfan13]

I'm modifying #7 as an option. =3 *since fur color change is liked I'll add that along with the egg*

[Slaskia]

I'd really prefer it was something little like an egg or the removal of the whiskers over a color change... color changes are a bit too noticeable, IMO. The whole point of wanting a version of the originals released rather than a total recolor is because we want them to look as much alike as possible for lineage building's sake. ^^

 

Although... I'm not sure an egg or lacking whiskers would really signify winner versus none the way the Tinsel's wreathes do, unless the whiskers somehow represent a rarer strain of the breed, haha. Hm. Maybe if the egg was really shiny... or if the spriter'd be willing to add in some wreathes...

 

At any rate. Perhaps descendants from the original Tinsels could have the special sprite, while ones from in-cave CBs wouldn't? That'd encourage people to still get ones from the originals.

I'd go with an egg or a color change/adjustment rather than whisker removal, as the whiskers are a bit of a trademark for an eastern style dragon, ya know?

[Starscream]

I am glad ADP and I could knock our brains together and get some great idea out with you PF13 <3 Lets hope some other interesting ideas/compromises/suggestions come out.