Saving up for Trades [Update 11/19 in first post]

[whitebaron]

(Footnotes contain additional information, but are not required reading to understand the idea, changes in red)

 

Introduction [1]

When talk gets around to trading, one often hears that the timeframe [2] for trading is very short, and this makes people pitch a lot of ideas, which often seem like a little to much change for DC to stay the DC we currently play. So I tried to figure out, what could be of help? Obviously, a way to extend that timeframe!

 

Basics

My proposal evolved from the Incubate BSA and the Freeze Action. Both those are ways to change how egg/hatchie timers work in DC, as well as providing a basic framework as to what can be proposed easily without altering the game too much [3]. Freeze also shows that it is possible to hinder dragons from growing up altogether.

 

My Proposal

Part 1:

I would like to be able to put a dragon into some sort of a holding pen [4].

It would work this way: You can use an action or BSA [5] to put your hatchling or egg into the holding pen. This would remove it from your scroll's limits, trophy levels and every other action you could do on this hatchling/egg. In addition to that, it would stop the clock on growing up. On the scroll, there could be an additional graphic, or maybe just the fog from hiding.

 

Part 2:

I would like to be able to add the penned dragons (from the holding pen) to a trade.

I would like to be able to add more than the current 4 dragons to a trade [6].

 

Together, this would accomplish the following:

You can save up for more expensive trades.

 

Proposed Limitations

• Scroll limits for breeds should apply to the holding pen too. [7]
• There should be no way to get your dragon back. [8]
• The BSA or action should not be an endless ressource. [9]
• The holding pen should have a max limit of dragons. [9]

Open Questions

• What are actually good numbers for dragons in an offer, in the holding pen, for cooldown (if it should be a BSA?)
• What other RP-explanations could there be?
• Did I miss some definition loopholes where the system can be cheated?

In-Game Example

I want a neglected dragon. I know they are expensive, and can't find any decent trade, or don't want to ressort to you-know-whats. I find or breed one nice dragon that I don't need in September and October, and put them aside for trade offers. Using my more expensive trade offers, I can now acquire the neglected in November or December.

 

 

Detailed Explanations to the footnotes

[1] This is actually an idea I had when thinking about what makes IOUs necessary to some people. It has nothing nothing to do with actual IOUs, but can replace probably a lot of them.

[2] Maximum is 15 days, with help. You can't cut it that close usually, so just let's assume 2 weeks.

[3] Many people like the game exactly as it is now, so good proposal should probably change as little to the actual gameplay as possible.

[4] However you might word that temporary storage is completely irrelevant for the concept, but some ideas would be "hibernating" hatchies and "fossilized" or "stone" eggs.

[5] While I am all for new BSAs, I don't have any favorite in that regard.

[6] Even without holding dragons, 4 is a low number. With this added mechanic, it would be definitely to low lots of times, which practically means: forcing IOU.

[7] It has been said at various times, that Holidays are about giving to others, not hoarding. So no workarounds around that principle should be possible if it is in the holding pen for over 24 hours, it gets auto-abandoned.

[8] Allowing dragons to be retrieved again would open it up to abuse, as you could use it as a way to circumvent scroll locks. Also, it should not be possible to trade to a friend and get it back, so once you put it on hold, it can never become an adult on your scroll.

[9] Not limiting the amount of dragons you can put away, makes this proposal way to good for seasoned players with large scrolls, who could just mass breed everything they have at any possible date, and then outbid newer players easily, giving them an unfair advantage.

 

 

-- UPDATE --

It has been made very clear in this thread, that any way that goes around scroll limits is really undesirable by a broad userbase. Thus I conclude, that the holding pen would have to be attached to the scroll limits in some way to be accepted. I have not made up my mind on how to change my proposal.

Edited November 19, 2012 by whitebaron

[Pokemonfan13]

<.< This is what disabling public IOUs causes...

 

 

Similar suggestions have been made before and shot down. I think most were in the BSA section.

 

Freezing is a spell that permanently stops the aging process. What you're essentially asking is to be allowed to freeze eggs and hatchlings and unfreeze them when you like, and that's something I remember TJ saying will never happen. It's a slightly different mechanism, but the end result is the same. If nothing else most people would need a lot longer than 2 weeks to gather the trade fodder, and for a lot of trades the fodder would be more slots than they can hold. I just can't see this is a good idea.

 

 

As to being able to trade held eggs. You can only keep one for a reason. That reason is so other people can have a chance of getting a holiday egg without having to trade for it. Except for very nice people who just abandon all their offspring anyways [or gift one] I can imagine people trading ALL their holiday egg and suddenly those who want to trust to their catching skills are fighting for far fewer eggs.

 

I have no opinion on being able to put more than 4 in a trade. I'm pretty sure we used to be able to put more than 4 [if I'm wrong it's because I don't trade in large numbers of things] and either way that limit was added for a reason. It's not a hardship either, just collect more magis and send more than one tele link..

Edited November 18, 2012 by Pokemonfan13

[Dolphinsong]

The way I see this suggestion, is its a way to get around the scroll limits which is there for a reason. The system is as it is now for the reason of sharing extra bred holiday eggs so everyone has a chance at having at least one. Granted there are many too slow to snag them from the AP but they still get that chance.

[whitebaron]

Huh?

I wonder how people misread the intent so badly when it's written down above so clearly?

 

@pf13:

First of all, I never limited my idea to two weeks. My example speaks of holding stuff for months.

Secondly, there is not yet any number given on how many dragons should be held, so how do you know it will be "more slots than they can hold"?

Thirdly, you absolutely misread the part about trading held eggs. Held egg =egg from my holding pen. I even explicitly said, that holidays should get auto-abandoned from that area as well!

And finally, having to send more than one transfer opens up the door for scams, which this idea tries to reduce. I'd have no problem whatsoever if trading more than 4 would use more magis as well to keep it more "believable" (even though magic does not follow those physical restrictions at all)

 

@dolphin: and where did I state anything different?

....

 

<<this is the clutter caused by not fully reading my post

Edited November 18, 2012 by whitebaron

[StormWizard212]

I was really skeptical about this suggestion when I started reading and was preparing to give a 'no' opinion, however the thing that changed my mind and makes me more open to this idea is the fact that the eggs in this pen can never become adults on your scroll. I think that really does reduce a lot of the chance for this being used as a way of getting around scroll limits and cheating. The fact that eggs/hatchlings being put into the pen could never be returned to the scroll owner and could only be used for trade.

 

But like I said, that has made me more open to the idea, but I'm still not sure that it's something I'd want to see implemented. I'll have to think about this a little more and come back with my opinion again later, but I just wanted to post anyway to say that I found that one point in bold above a really good one to add.

 

Also, I haven't cast a vote yet in the poll because I'm still pretty on the fence about this. But as soon as I make up my own opinion of this idea, I'll post again and vote in the poll.

Edited November 18, 2012 by StormWizard212

[Pokemonfan13]

...it's even worse if it's unlimited. Then it really isn't any different at all from being able to unfreeze.

 

I was talking about the egg/hatchling slots. This only makes sense at all if you have to return them to your own slots before teleporting them or else what you're really doing is going around the egg/hatchling limits.

 

Then don't use terminology that means something already in dragcave lingo. Held eggs = multiclutch eggs, find something else to call it to avoid confusion.

 

How exactly does having to send more than one open it to scams? If the person doesn't send two links don't do the trade. And it's less of a scam than pure IOUs, which ARE allowed, just not posted in the trading threads. At least you'd be getting PART of the trade even if you don't get the FULL trade [if you're worried insist on the most valuable stuff in the trade and the less valuable stuff in the transfer]. The 4 limit is the only thing in this thread that I feel is worth debating.

 

 

Edit: And storm, it's still getting around the scroll limits. What it's doing is giving a whole nother limit for people who are trading. Someone could breed a ton of valuable stuff, stick it in the pen, then have all their egg slots for raising stuff WHILE they're finding buyers for their trade fodder. Waaay unfair.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Pokemonfan13

[StormWizard212]

Edit:  And storm, it's still getting around the scroll limits.  What it's doing is giving a whole nother limit for people who are trading.  Someone could breed a ton of valuable stuff, stick it in the pen, then have all their egg slots for raising stuff WHILE they're finding buyers for their trade fodder.  Waaay unfair.

I get what you mean about that. It's that sort of thing that makes me a bit uneasy about this suggestion and why I haven't voted yet so I can take some more time to try to think up solutions. So far I haven't come up with anything, but I'm working off a headache and not much sleep here, so...

 

I think one thing that would make this fairer though was if normal scroll limits still applied for the pen area and the ordinary scroll. So for example, if I had three eggs in the pen that weren't growing up, I'd only be able to have a maximum of four eggs on my scroll. I'd personally be a lot more comfortable with something like that being implemented, since that way it's just about the eggs/hatchlings not growing up and getting older while you look for a trade, instead of having somewhere else to hold eggs/hatchlings while you raise others in their place, if that makes sense.

 

I can't find this mentioned in the OP so I'm not sure if WB was thinking this or not, but if this was added to the idea it would make me a lot more comfortable with it. But even still, since it would still change game play quite significantly and I'm sure there are other loopholes, I'm still not 100% convinced on it. But compared to a couple of the other suggestions we've had lately, I do think this one is a big improvement since it has less problems, the way I see it, than the others.

Edited November 18, 2012 by StormWizard212

[kerrikins]

Unless the eggs/hatchies are subject to the same scroll limits that the rest of the scroll is, I agree with PF13, it seems like just a way around the scroll limits. I mean, if TJ decides that that's fair because everyone would have it, then okay, but that's my first wariness. It'd be easy for someone to build up a cache of stuff and that's something to keep in mind.

 

Idk. I guess I'm just not sure how well this would work. Absolutely there'd need to be a code in place to stop those eggs/hatchies from being able to be transferred back to your scroll once you've penned them.

 

 

[whitebaron]

@pf13:

Once again: I never wrote that it should be unlimited, I just wrote that I have not pitched any number yet. Also I never wrote that eggs from the holding pen would revert to your slots.

 

As for the terminology: I wasn't aware of this specific use and added an explanation to the OP.

 

As for scams: any time 2 things are done at the same time, the one who offers can be scammed/cheated out of parts of the trade. If we do e.g CB Gold for 6 other dragons, those 2 surplus dragons can either be the only ones accepted (and keep the gold) or withheld (and just pay 4) There's no way to ensure safety for both sides with the current system in place.

 

And yes, thats the proposal right there, at the end of your post. Giving another (limited) area you can keep trade fodder in. it's not any more unfair to newer players than having a gold trophy and a 5 year old black army when they were still sprouting like grass.

 

--edit--

at storm & kerry:

I did not want to keep it linked to scroll limits, thats something pf did wrongly assume. If however public opinion goes toward that direction, it could be directly linked to your trophy levels, or the trophy levels be adjusted to limit this as well.

Edited November 18, 2012 by whitebaron

[Elery.]

I don't usually comment or suggest ideas in the forum, but I do read a lot of them, and what tends to repeat on those suggestions critiques is that they should be kept within a certain level of "reality" concerning the cave lore.

 

I would like to know, since it seems this idea goes hand in hand with a new BSA.

If there is already one in mind? I think it would be helpful to have one established to make this more feasible. Because when I read the suggestion this questions came to mind:

 

-Does your suggestion include changing the regular established period of growth from egg to hatchling to adult, therefore altering the cave lore?

 

-You keep the egg in the pen, but what will prevent it from hatching or going bad because it didn't hatch when it should have?

 

-You have a hatchling in the pen, what will keep it from growing at its normal rate?

 

-Is the pen charmed in some way to keep the eggs and hatchlings from being harmed due to forcing them to stay in the same stage?

 

I apologize if I misunderstood your suggestion in some way, but I am curious as to the reach of this idea and would like to understand it better ^-^

 

Edit: Typo attack e_e

Edited November 18, 2012 by Elery.

[pinkieseb]

This is allowing you to have more eggs/hatchlings than the limit. TJ would never allow it...

[whitebaron]

Hi elery, thanks for pitching in on the RP-side. I know lore is important to part of the userbase, and I am not one of those. That's why I focused on the mechanical aspects first. But I have enough RP experience to be able to pitch lots of ideas if needed. (I DM for 20+ years now)

 

Yes, it would have some effect on lore. While held ("hibernating") dragons are similar to frozen ones, they can still wake up one day. And then they'd continue growing. It basically would be a pause in their development cycle.

 

As for the new BSA, it could also be another spell, there are various variations this could go down: frost snap, turned to stone, hibernate, stasis...

 

The pen is not something I'd consider should carry over to RP, it's just to show the basic idea. In RP, I'd say you keep the dragons somewhere nice and save, I'm not adept enough at DC lore for this, but maybe just a separate cave for hibernating draggons?

 

Most of the RP implications to your other questions would be answered differently according to which version would be chosen in the first place.

 

A Hibernating dragon would not need any care or food, thus could not die of neglect. On the other hand, he/she could not grow up until woken. Of course, any dragon worth his salt would never stay with the person who forcefully hindered it from growing up earlier.

[olympe]

The only way I can see this work is if you can only put hatchlings on hold, and they'd still count towards your scroll limits.

 

Why? Quite simple. Imagine Halloween. You grab all the 7 Halloween eggs you're allowed, then put them in limbo. You catch 7 more and put them in limbo, too. Now, you catch your 3rd set of 7 Halloween eggs, giving you 21. Great.

 

Wait, you cannot get the held eggs back for your own scroll? True. But it's hardly a deterrent - all you need is to find a trading partner who did the very same thing as you did, and then exchange your extra Halloween eggs for theirs.

 

 

So, hatchlings only. Since we have scroll-wide limits of X eggs (7 for gold players) and 3 times X growing things overall, it wouldn't hurt too much to keep a couple of hatchlings in limbo, and you don't need to hash out limits because the scroll limits put a cap on how many hatchlings you can keep without impairing your play style.

[whitebaron]

The only way I can see this work is if you can only put hatchlings on hold, and they'd still count towards your scroll limits.

 

Why? Quite simple. Imagine Halloween. [snip]

ok, I got your point. To cover halloween there'd have to be an additional rule in place.

 

I do not however believe hatchies are the only option, as there could easily be a cooldown (say 24 h) as with abandoning, which can prevent this.

 

As for keeping it within your scroll limits: i'd rather like a separate limit, as this once again would turn out to favor the gold trophy owners.

[StormWizard212]

Maybe to solve the problem above, the scroll limits for egg could be the same as well. You can only have 7 eggs period, whether they're in limbo or not. So if you put your 7 Halloween eggs in there, you still wouldn't be able to pick up more.

 

If the limits were exactly the same and the only thing that was done was the timer stopped and you had to end up trading and couldn't have the dragons back on your own scroll, then I think that I'd be fine with this. But only under those conditions, because I think otherwise it's too susceptible to cheating.

[pinkgothic]

Since people are talking about ways of solving the issue of egg limits:

 

In the thread that spawned this, I suggested something similar, although with actually raising the dragons to adulthood and then having them vanish in scroll limbo. That would mean you'd still have to raise them, and additionally ensure (in some way I'm not dead set on, but did offer two suggestions for) that you could only arrange trades them while they were eggs/hatchlings (preventing people from offering holiday dragons all year 'round, if that sort of thing bothers you).

 

Maybe that notion could be used as another way to patch this up?

Edited November 18, 2012 by pinkgothic

[StormWizard212]

The thing that would concern me about that is it kind of sounds like being able to trade adults. Even if you're ensuring the trade while they're eggs/hatchlings, the person on the receiving end would be getting them as adults, meaning they could still be locked with 21 hatchlings, which is the part that doesn't bode so well with me.

[Fuzzbucket]

Since people are talking about ways of solving the issue of egg limits:

 

In the thread that spawned this, I suggested something similar, although with actually raising the dragons to adulthood and then having them vanish in scroll limbo. That would mean you'd still have to raise them, and additionally ensure (in some way I'm not dead set on, but did offer two suggestions for) that you could only arrange trades them while they were eggs/hatchlings (preventing people from offering holiday dragons all year 'round, if that sort of thing bothers you).

 

Maybe that notion could be used as another way to patch this up?

There is no PROBLEM of egg limits. Surely to ***, if you are going to trade, you have to stay within your limits. No ifs, adns or buts. I could live with saving up eggs/hatchies (not adults) in some kind of limbo, and passing them over when you have enough for the trade - AT THE STAGE THEY WERE WHEN YOU PUT THEM IN LIMBO - so your trade partner would have to plan ahead just as you would - but they would have to be within your existing scroll limit, IMHO.

 

And I think this could not reasonably include holidays.

[pinkgothic]

The thing that would concern me about that is it kind of sounds like being able to trade adults. Even if you're ensuring the trade while they're eggs/hatchlings, the person on the receiving end would be getting them as adults, meaning they could still be locked with 21 hatchlings, which is the part that doesn't bode so well with me.

 

To be fair, the way informal IOU trades work is similar, in that by the time the IOU is repaid, the dragon isn't taking up a slot, either (it's long since grown to maturation on the recipient's scroll by then), but there is a time when it is (however brief), so, I'm not sure; maybe it could take up an egg/hatchling slot on all declaredly interested party's scrolls while it matures? But that seems kind of silly. (Though if it fixes the mechanic, I'd still support it for that alone.) If we went with the 1:1 variant of "arranged", which I still don't quite favour, it could also just 'grow up' on the recipient's scroll once they're entered (and have confirmed), but still be in limbo (i.e. inaccessible), and still be cancel-able by the original trader, which seems fractionally more elegant than blocking both parties, but IDK. Just thinking aloud.

 

And yes, it is a way to trade adults, as the linked post says - although with the twist that it's only arrangable while they're eggs/hatchlings and only the receiving party can do anything with said adult (unless the original trader outright cancels the trade, of course; that would free it up, but mean you can't offer it for anything again, because then it behaves like any other adult on your scroll ).

 

Edit: @fuzzbucket: Why not holidays?

Edit II: Oh, wait, you mean the original suggestion. Nevermind. x_x

 

Edit III: StormWizard212, I understood you fine. My response is exactly because of that scenario. Maybe re-read with that in mind? If it's still unclear, let me know and I'll try to fix my wording

Edited November 18, 2012 by pinkgothic

[StormWizard212]

To be fair, the way informal IOU trades work is similar, in that by the time the IOU is repaid, the dragon isn't taking up a slot, either

I meant that you wouldn't need free slots to receive the payment, since it would be an adult and wouldn't have to fit within the existing scroll limits. Even with IOUs how they are at the moment, for both trades exchanged, they take up scroll space, even if it's not simultaneous. If I'm locked and someone is trying to pay me back their IOU, I'd have to dump something to accept it. If it was an adult, that wouldn't be the case, so I wouldn't have to worry about being egg locked. Which is what I was trying to say.

[HeatherMarie]

I don't like the idea of being able to trade adults, no matter when you "arrange" the trade. DragonCave is about raising dragons. Raising. Catching, and raising. Not being handed a fully grown adult dragon that you don't have to even try to raise. That's like being given a gold trophy when you haven't raised the dragons required for it.

 

I agree with others about scroll limits. Unless this idea is tied to, and restricted by, a user's own scroll limits, this is simply a way to collect tons and tons of eggs/hatchlings and get around the scroll limits, which we have for a reason.

 

I also have a hard time understanding exactly why this is needed. If you have a trade where you need, say, 6 eggs to trade with, why can't you just teleport 2 eggs, give IOUs for the rest, and then teleport the rest when you get them? IOUs *are* still allowed in sigs and PMs. I see no reason why we need a "holding pen" when we've worked around trade limitations just fine so far.

[Fuzzbucket]

And I DO think we should ALL have to stay within scroll limits, and I am NOT OK with any form of adult trading.

 

(Holidays - yes, I meant as in the original post - but I do think holidays are a very awkward issue if there were a limbo thing. I don't think it will work having them growing up way out of season - and I DO think any limbo eggs / hatchies passed on should have to carry on from the stage they were at when they were put into limbo.)

 

If we want IOUs formalised in some way - we have to accept that they can't all be "yeah easy we will do it however we like and we want it to let us do extra stuff outside scroll limits". There ARE scroll limits, and we ALL have to stick to them. If you want to build up a limbo pool for a massive trade - that is your own choice. You have to accept the consequences.

 

IMNVHO

[StormWizard212]

I also have a hard time understanding exactly why this is needed. If you have a trade where you need, say, 6 eggs to trade with, why can't you just teleport 2 eggs, give IOUs for the rest, and then teleport the rest when you get them? IOUs *are* still allowed in sigs and PMs. I see no reason why we need a "holding pen" when we've worked around trade limitations just fine so far.

I can't speak for the OP of course, but I think he intended this also for cases where people won't take IOUs. If someone has something really valuable, they might not trust an IOU. For example, I take IOUs for stuff like messy hatchlings for a CB neb I had, but I'd be a lot more cautious if I wanted to do an IOU for a CB gold I had, simply because it would hurt my scroll a lot more if I didn't get what we'd agreed on back.

 

So with something like this, people would be able to save up stuff so that they'd have things to trade at the exact time, so an IOU wouldn't even be necessary.

 

Another possible use I can think of for this... Metallics don't breed well. I could tell people I have a 2nd gen silver and I could breed a sibling for it too, but that could take months and a lot of people might not be interested in accepting an offer like that. But if I had the two 2nd gen silvers there at the same time, I'd get a lot more interest in the offer.

 

So if we had something like this, then I think cases like that are probably when I'd use this feature. And if egg limits still remained for this pen thing, then it'd essentially be like the opposite of incubate, but... for longer than a day. I'd also be happy with there being a time limit for this, too, so that people couldn't save up 21 hatchlings worth of CB metallics or something. Though I guess if they're super good at catching, they could do that anyway... But it's a lot less likely.

Edited November 18, 2012 by StormWizard212

[Tawanda001]

The only thing I'd like to see held would be eggs for gifting. ( It would have been nice to hold some of the lurkers for a longer period of time, just in case.)

I wouldn't mind being able to hold others because sometimes the intended giftee is scroll locked and it puts pressure on them to dump eggs or to refuse the gift.

I don't care for this idea as a way to make trading easier. Though I don't see how this could be implemented and not used for trading too.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Tawanda001

[Fuzzbucket]

If I'm gifting - I will hold, as long as I get an acknowledgement and the recipient asks me to. That's part of gifting. (I usually check first, but if by chance they pick something up while I do my thing...)