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Saving up for Trades [Update 11/19 in first post]

How do you like the proposal?  

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Well, the not growing up part as much as the holding. I don't mind holding but , like with the lurkers, I had one I held for as long as possible, put it in a teleport to gift someone who had just asked for one in a thread. Went off to bed, off to work and checked 16 hours later to find the lurker grown up on my scroll. Maybe the person lost power again, maybe they didn't understand the time constraint, who knows? Would have nice to keep it a hatchie until the giftee was able to pick it up though.

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@pf13:

Once again: I never wrote that it should be unlimited, I just wrote that I have not pitched any number yet. Also I never wrote that eggs from the holding pen would revert to your slots.

You really need to be clearer. I got confused with your footnote talking about the NORMAL time for trading, which is where my original two week example came from [partially because I had no idea where the 15 days thing came from. Unless you send it through the AP there is no way to INCREASE the amount of time something has, and with AP trading disabled sending it through the AP is way risky]. Then you talk about "holding stuff for months" in your reply which is darn near unlimited. Unless it is an offshoot of the freezing magic the suggestion doesn't even make any sense. You can't just put a living thing in suspended animation for as long as you like. We can't do it NOW, so without magic there would be no way at all to do it with medieval technology, and if my memory is correct TJ has said that unfreezing is something that isn't going to happen. And when you get down to the nitty gritty, what you have is unfreezing even if it's through a different mechanism.

 

I can see this being somewhat workable if they still count for your scroll limits, but even then I just don't see the point. This would only be useful for people who absolutely refuse to take IOUs.

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You can't just put a living thing in suspended animation for as long as you like. We can't do it NOW, so without magic there would be no way at all to do it with medieval technology, and if my memory is correct TJ has said that unfreezing is something that isn't going to happen. And when you get down to the nitty gritty, what you have is unfreezing even if it's through a different mechanism.

This is another thing that makes me uncomfortable with this suggestion. We've been told multiple times that we will never get an "unfreeze" option, to go with our current "freeze" option. And yet that's pretty much exactly what this suggestion is saying. Putting dragons in some sort of magical "holding pen" that stops them from growing up for an undetermined amount of time... Yup, sounds like getting around the unfreezing no-no, to me.

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I can see this being somewhat workable if they still count for your scroll limits, but even then I just don't see the point.  This would only be useful for people who absolutely refuse to take IOUs.

But that's the point. IOU are not part of the game, and I believe will be banned from the forums completely in some amount of time. (might even be soon) As the IOU mechanism is unwanted from the Site Owner himself, there's no way we should argue a proposition with "but it can be done with IOU anyway". Also, not everyone is ok with IOU, or has good experiences with it. So far, I'm still owed three tinsels and cashed in a lot of smaller IOUs, so my experience is somewhat in the middle.

 

 

As for this being unfreezing: No, just no. Freezing is permanent, and can be done a lot of times, if you want to, you could build a scroll with only frozen dragons. They will stay that way. Thus I did explicitly not propose unfreezing, as this would open up cans of worms I do not even want to envision.

 

Also, with the added twist, that everything you hibernate, can never grow up on your scroll, it's very unlike unfreezing would have to work.

 

@Marie19R: This proposal is meant to reduce "working around trade limitations". Because working around trade limitations is exactly what is causing trouble through and for some players.

 

 

PS: due to noone approving my topics, I probably won't be able to participate in this discussion fully, which is a shame. (got two warns for my posts in this thread already...)

 

--edit--

my now approved posts have been applied to the place when I wrote them. so you might need to check back on page 1 and previous posts.

Edited by whitebaron

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There is no reason to suppose IOUs will ever be banned outright - and even if they were, they cannot be stopped - PMs are private ! and even if they weren't - email is always an option, or IM or whatever. That's just being alarmist.

 

But trying to get around scroll limits is not OK. Not for either side of the trade. I'm sorry you have had a bad time with IOUs - I imagine that is the big problem with their ever becoming official. Because you cannot force people to behave, and you cannot expect mods to police them. People will ALWAYS find a way to scam if they want to, and other people will ALWAYS fall for it.

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But trying to get around scroll limits is not OK. Not for either side of the trade.

I'm not per se trying to get around scroll limits, that's not the gist of this idea and it says what the idea is in post 1: to further increase the trading window for your dragons. That, and nothing else, is my goal.

 

Because honestly, if you trade something in real life, that's worth much, you would not just accept the word of someone to get what you want - you'd make a binding contract, that could be enforced by a court of law.

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Yes, it would have some effect on lore. While held ("hibernating") dragons are similar to frozen ones, they can still wake up one day. And then they'd continue growing. It basically would be a pause in their development cycle.

Please explain to me how this is "very unlike unfreezing".

 

Unfreezing: You freeze a hatchling. Two months later, you decide you want to trade that hatchling with someone, so you unfreeze it, and trade it.

 

Your suggestion: Dragons are held in a "pen" that pauses their developement cycle for an undetermined amount of time. When the user is ready, they can un-pause the dragon and trade it.

 

The *only* difference in your suggestion is the fact that we wouldn't be able to put the dragons in the pen back on our scroll. That's the only difference I can see.

 

 

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Ok, So I've been thinking about this.. and I think that it /could/ work.. but theres a few kinks about it that need worked out.

 

First: the holding pen items SHOULD count for your scroll limit. The reason is specifically to prevent people from storing large numbers of eggs. If the most you can hold is 7, and your store 4.. you only have three spots to work with. This would discourage people from say.. storing hollies until august when holly fever starts kicking in.

 

Nothing you put in there should have the ability to /ever/ get back on your scroll. Even if traded, then sent back as a gift, it should not be able to come back. This would prevent multis from having their mule accounts hold things until their main scroll has room.

 

There should be a time limit for how long things can be stored. If at most, it takes two weeks to go from egg to adult.. then thats a fair number for how long it can stay in that hold. The display next to the eggs could have the "time left" since views and that other info would not be needed.. and those eggs would have no actions (im assuming acces to them is only done through teleport page?). When the time left runs out, those eggs are kicked to the ap. There is a severe flaw here though: the old forever autumn thing could kick back up, people could just bounce a holly between scrolls year round. Perhaps eggs/hatchys that have been held in the pen can not be repenned?

 

There was something else.. but im completely drawing a blank on it.

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I KNOW that this isn't EXACTLY unfreezing, but if the eggs don't count for your scroll limits there is no substantive difference.

Exactly. We have to stick to scroll limits, no matter what happens with a potential pen...

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Perhaps eggs/hatchys that have been held in the pen can not be repenned?

I think that's a good idea. smile.gif Otherwise you're right - things could just be bounced back and forth forever. Either they can't be repenned, or if they are, the time limit from the last penning would still be in effect and counting down. But that would probably be more complicated and harder to code.

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I think that's a good idea. smile.gif Otherwise you're right - things could just be bounced back and forth forever. Either they can't be repenned, or if they are, the time limit from the last penning would still be in effect and counting down. But that would probably be more complicated and harder to code.

Is there really an issue with something eternally bouncing around, though? I always thought the eternal Autumn was a cute thing, so I never understood why it was so necessary to prevent things like that from happening...

 

There are some issues with this concept, but I don't think that should be one of them.

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Is there really an issue with something eternally bouncing around, though? I always thought the eternal Autumn was a cute thing, so I never understood why it was so necessary to prevent things like that from happening...

 

There are some issues with this concept, but I don't think that should be one of them.

If we could just continue bouncing things around though, it would mean that holiday dragons would essentially wind up being available year round, just for much higher prices. Which kind of defeats the purpose of holidays in the first place, since they should only be available during their holidays. tongue.gif

Edited by StormWizard212

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If we could just continue bouncing things around though, it would mean that holiday dragons would essentially wind up being available year round, just for much higher prices. Which kind of defeats the purpose of holidays in the first place, since they should only be available during their holidays. tongue.gif

Yes they should. That was part of what I meant when I mentioned them in the first place smile.gif I think they should be unpennable.

 

Not that I am wild about this idea as things move on....

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Thu, I'm not sure I understand your thing about penned items never being able to get back onto the account that penned them preventing mules. The accounts are not linked, so if you pen it in a mule account you can send it onto your main when you have room. The account you penned it on is a throwaway multi-account, it doesn't matter if you can't get it back on.

 

 

 

And things REALLY need to be set in stone. We're discussing a strange combination of the original idea and the idea we feel it would need to be to stand any chance. [talking about both pens that aren't attached to scroll limits and pens where the eggs still count at the same time and so on] If you're going to take any of our suggestions you need to take them and edit your post. If you're not say so and we can stop discussing this idea because the only point in discussion is to try to make the idea better.

 

I would strongly suggest changing the adjective "held" in your description to "penned". No confusion and the term is more descriptive.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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Thu, I'm not sure I understand your thing about penned items never being able to get back onto the account that penned them preventing mules. The accounts are not linked, so if you pen it in a mule account you can send it onto your main when you have room. The account you penned it on is a throwaway multi-account, it doesn't matter if you can't get it back on.

 

 

 

And things REALLY need to be set in stone. We're discussing a strange combination of the original idea and the idea we feel it would need to be to stand any chance. [talking about both pens that aren't attached to scroll limits and pens where the eggs still count at the same time and so on] If you're going to take any of our suggestions you need to take them and edit your post. If you're not say so and we can stop discussing this idea because the only point in discussion is to try to make the idea better.

 

I would strongly suggest changing the adjective "held" in your description to "penned". No confusion and the term is more descriptive.

PF:

 

What i mean is.. lets say you have a cb gold you want to trade, but the person cant take the egg on for a few days.. so you decide to pen the gold. Now, the other person suddenly decides they dont want it.. and you decide you would rather have the gold, than whatever you were trying to get for it.

 

Now, without a prevention in place, you could send the gold to a friend, and they could hand it back. What i was suggesting prevents you from getting that gold back onto your account. Once something is penned, it should have to leave your scroll at some point.. be it that its traded, or dropped after its timer ran out.

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I get that part. I don't understand where the multiaccounts thing comes in. If you have a second account and are afraid of the trade falling through you would transfer it to your second account to pen the egg so if it DOES fall through you can send it back to the main and let it grow up there if you don't want another trade try.

 

[all yous general, of course]

 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to prevent transfer back to an account where it had been penned, I'm just saying I don't understand one example you used to say how it was a good idea.

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I'm not saying it's a bad idea to prevent transfer back to an account where it had been penned, I'm just saying I don't understand one example you used to say how it was a good idea.

Generally, when people do use multis in any game with resources - they use them for getting more storage space(mule characters), gaining ressources they otherwise could not get (like alts in WoW with different crafting) or to get more of those ressources (in the case of DC, eggslots).

 

they are rarely used for trades for three reasons:

 

1) you usually don't check your mule accounts regularly.

2) you usually don't have extra forums accounts for mule characters.

3) you don't want to indirectly announce that you are cheating the system.

 

Penning an egg to your multiscroll would trigger all the three above.

I always get a strange feeling in my belly when I see: "have on brother's scroll", "have on family scrolls", or "we have on scrolls" - because this being the internet, you have no idea whatsoever if it really is a large family just using the same computer, or one person cheating the system.

 

@all: Since it seems I can't answer in a timely fashion at all to your posts, please feel free to PM me as well. Also, Thuban's ideas are close enough to mine so that I can safely say: She can answer to this as I'd do. smile.gif

 

 

---

Concerning a BSA: another thought I had, that was along the lines of a BSA, was this: Just a reverse-Incubate for a few days. This could max out at 7d like the current system, to prevent uneccessary coding changes.

 

Since it would be a BSA, you'd have both limits in place: the amount you can use would be based on scroll limits and bsa dragons you got.

but this kind of proposal has been there in the bsa section, definitely. would be best to discuss a BSA in the proper section, thinking of it, i'd rather have this (my original idea) be a spell.

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There does need to be a way that whatever is in that pen can NEVER get back to your account, no matter what. Not sure how, but I think it's important.

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*shrug* Doesn't matter. I'm not the one who brought up multis anyways.

?

 

I just meant that things could never get on to your scroll again once you had penned them, once they are past their normal time. Within that time (7 days and 7 days, I guess if the other player says they don't want the IOU any more, I guess anything in its NORMAL window can come back to your scroll, but that would be the ONLY time.

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Hmm. I was tentatively against this before, but reading over the thread again... I'm leaning toward tentatively for, if penned eggs count toward scroll limits, or if there's a limit of maybe two that can be penned at once.

 

Not a fan of 'saving up,' per se, but it'd eliminate some trading forum problems to have a couple slots where eggs/hatchlings won't mature. You wouldn't have to say 'Have CB gold, looking for...' and then subtly indicate your signature that announces you're seeking a Holly IOU, lol. If someone's willing to take up one of their egg slots with trade fodder for months, more power to them, I say.

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I am not a fan of this idea. Personally I think it would make trades tougher. It would make people prone to "hold on to" all their goodies for better stuff instead of just taking the best offer available at one time which allows some leniency in trade. It would specially make things tougher for people who are already cornered by rare for rare trades; because if one can hold their trades, they'll be more likely to not compromise on their expectations. I personally get rid of many trades cheap because the sooner I get my slots back the better, but if I got a chance to store them and get a better trade I would choose that, yes. Which won't be all that great for the person who would have had a shot at getting a rare/uncommon for some commons because I got my storage in place. I'm just being brutally honest about this, because that is how it is going to work for many people.

 

RP-wise I do not like the idea of "storing" my dragons babies. They're dragons, not things. I do not like the idea of interfering with their growth process in such a drastic manner.

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Ability to hold off egg for anything over nearly 14 days (Current DC settings) automatically would rise prices for exceptional items. Why? it's easy:

For some type of dragons price are rising from egg stage to hatch stage, for some - doesn't change. So, basically now you're forced to sell your dragon in 2 weeks (good eggs are almost instantly traded or come to pre-deal state, most of REALLY RARE eggs tradings are made peer-to-peer by long-lived connections and not even mentioned on forums. So, basically what kind of eggs are long-lived in trading? Those ones that A: easilly collected; B: well, eggs not_for_anybody (like rainbow lineage, dead-cut lineages, NN-gen non-PB, tinsel-fails, etc. - collectors items)

Now imagine - I lay my dirty hands on a lowgen tinsel with rare line. I'll put it ON HOLD, pump up price for it and wait, wait, wait like a pro fisherman. And it would be not only my tactic - it's a common wild market trend. The only thing that works against this - it's a time-limit.

 

PS. About 4 trade slots - I really didn't understand WHY its limited. This is an only method for both sides SAFE trading. (just for example - 2 days ago i recvd. offer with 1:15 ratio). Or we need some kind of stock market with options, futures, swaps and other derivatives hell %)) (ummm lol -bankruptcy = group of creditors calls for bancruptcy procedure and site stuff assign bankruptcy manager for scroll property operations, omg, somebody, stop me %))

PPS. hmm... bancruptsy manager can be automated and if scroll looks abandoned it can be declared as site's legacy ( smth like thuweds functionality if a scroll has unique dragons). that way abandoned scrolls with unique still can produce offsprings.

Edited by Fsaber

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